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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 5787

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
OuchyDathurts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4588 Posts
October 27 2016 19:17 GMT
#115721
On October 28 2016 04:14 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2016 04:11 Nyxisto wrote:
is there some good write-up on what exactly is possible within the current legal framework of the US? Like could the federal government mandate compulsory insurance, how would this work in coordination with the individual states etc... ?

That is what the ACA is. And a few of the states are fighting it. Weirdly, these are the states that are also poor and have a lot of citizens that could use low cost insurance.


Convincing people to vote against their best interest is a time honored tradition.
LiquidDota Staff
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 27 2016 19:19 GMT
#115722
On October 28 2016 04:17 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2016 04:14 Plansix wrote:
On October 28 2016 04:11 Nyxisto wrote:
is there some good write-up on what exactly is possible within the current legal framework of the US? Like could the federal government mandate compulsory insurance, how would this work in coordination with the individual states etc... ?

That is what the ACA is. And a few of the states are fighting it. Weirdly, these are the states that are also poor and have a lot of citizens that could use low cost insurance.


Convincing people to vote against their best interest is a time honored tradition.

And people will rush to do if it you sell it hard enough. Look at the south and the civil war. Convince a bunch of poor white people to go fight so rich white people can keep owning black slaves.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Deleted User 173346
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
16169 Posts
October 27 2016 19:26 GMT
#115723
--- Nuked ---
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 27 2016 19:27 GMT
#115724
On October 28 2016 04:26 plasmidghost wrote:

If this is true, were polls not nearly as reliable in 1980 as they (mostly) are now?

If I remember right there was only 1 debate that year and it was a week before the election so the polls didn't get the numbers immediately. Polling was also sparser and less accurare, yes.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 27 2016 19:29 GMT
#115725
the healthcare thing has become a big strategic issue in terms of the federal budget sustainability. historically when you are stepping on the military's turf there will be some real effort at getting the money.

cost saving will have to come from treatment and price control. insurance is pretty whatever. the va system delivers cost savings of 40-50% for high quality of care. should be part of the plans along with more doctors in training and improving preventive care.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-27 19:43:50
October 27 2016 19:43 GMT
#115726
On October 28 2016 04:26 plasmidghost wrote:
https://twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/791668508304310272
If this is true, were polls not nearly as reliable in 1980 as they (mostly) are now?




http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-there-any-precedent-for-a-trump-comeback/

Should read that article again about the potential for a Trump comeback.
There is no one like you in the universe.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 27 2016 19:59 GMT
#115727
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
October 27 2016 20:17 GMT
#115728
On October 28 2016 04:26 plasmidghost wrote:
https://twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/791668508304310272
If this is true, were polls not nearly as reliable in 1980 as they (mostly) are now?


I would argue it isn't even appropriate making comparisons to 2012. This election is remarkably unique.
CobaltBlu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States919 Posts
October 27 2016 20:27 GMT
#115729
It would be funny if Trump's 24/7 media presence does a better job driving democratic voters for Clinton than she ever could have done herself.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-27 20:33:59
October 27 2016 20:27 GMT
#115730
On October 28 2016 03:40 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2016 03:28 IgnE wrote:
The Next Ten Years Will Be Ugly For Your 401k

Research Affiliates’ 10-year model, the report looks at the typical balanced portfolio of 60 percent stocks and 40 percent bonds. An example would be the $29.6 billion Vanguard Balanced Index Fund (VBINX). For the decade ended Sept. 30, VBINX had an average annual performance of 6.6 percent, and that’s before inflation. Over the next decade, according to the report, “the ubiquitous 60/40 U.S. portfolio has a 0% probability of achieving a 5% or greater annualized real return.”


Does this put a damper on your "how everyone can retire a millionaire" basic plan Kwark? or nah?


Not even slightly. Firstly, these reports come out daily and they always say different things. It's the 43,200 stopped clocks approach, have one for every second of the day (well, of the 12 hours) and just point at a different one whenever anyone asks what time it is. Nobody fucking knows. Secondly, typical balanced portfolio of 60/40 is neither typical nor balanced, those depend entirely on the circumstances of the individual investor. Thirdly, they're cherry picking dates here. They're using a start date of September 2006 to argue their point, does that not seem a little strange to you? Fourthly, 6.6% compounding, or even 5% compounding in real terms, is still a shitton of money. Fifthly, just as a simple exercise in compounding I ran a basic calculation.

If you work for 45 years and in the first year save $5,000, second year $6,000 and so forth (inflation adjusted) with 5% compounding growth then you end up with $3,092,503.90. You actually hit the inflation adjusted million dollar mark after just 30 years.

Sorry, but not only am I not even slightly worried by your cherry picked stopped clock but it actually illustrates my point, not yours. Your worst case scenario puts someone saving just $5,000 a year (with small annual increases) at over $3 million dollars.


just briefly:

no it doesn't seem odd that they picked sept 2006, since that's a ten year run. they are comparing it to the next ten year run.

the point of the article is that the simulation has 0% probability of achieving at least 5%. using 5% then, is already working outside the assumptions

i am not getting 3mill. whats your max contribution? are you assuming median income and are you considering what total net income is after such contributions?

let's consider the far more realistic but still ambitious working llife of 40 years with $5k contributions annually. at a 4% rate of return i'm looking at $700k before taxes.

It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24385 Posts
October 27 2016 20:28 GMT
#115731
On October 28 2016 05:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2016 04:26 plasmidghost wrote:
https://twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/791668508304310272
If this is true, were polls not nearly as reliable in 1980 as they (mostly) are now?


I would argue it isn't even appropriate making comparisons to 2012. This election is remarkably unique.


I keep seeing the margins detailed, but not the raw totals. Has anyone seen how that compares to 12 or 08?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44373 Posts
October 27 2016 20:43 GMT
#115732
Igne, I don't know why you can't use Excel so I can't speak for your numbers, only my own. Your assumption of the same amount being saved in the first year of working (18?) and the year they retire (58, good for them, early retirement) is unrealistic. People typically experience an increase in earning potential with age. However 700k will produce a reliable median income to live on for our early retiree. As for taxes, with just 5k a year and having him be low income for life, that's ROTH IRA territory. No taxes to pay. Not that he's owe taxes on that kind of yield anyway, so the tax status isn't important. Your completely hypothetical and totally unrealistic retirement saver who saves less of his paycheck year on year and retires early, he's fine. Sorry bro.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Trainrunnef
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States601 Posts
October 27 2016 20:47 GMT
#115733
On October 28 2016 05:27 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2016 03:40 KwarK wrote:
On October 28 2016 03:28 IgnE wrote:
The Next Ten Years Will Be Ugly For Your 401k

Research Affiliates’ 10-year model, the report looks at the typical balanced portfolio of 60 percent stocks and 40 percent bonds. An example would be the $29.6 billion Vanguard Balanced Index Fund (VBINX). For the decade ended Sept. 30, VBINX had an average annual performance of 6.6 percent, and that’s before inflation. Over the next decade, according to the report, “the ubiquitous 60/40 U.S. portfolio has a 0% probability of achieving a 5% or greater annualized real return.”


Does this put a damper on your "how everyone can retire a millionaire" basic plan Kwark? or nah?


Not even slightly. Firstly, these reports come out daily and they always say different things. It's the 43,200 stopped clocks approach, have one for every second of the day (well, of the 12 hours) and just point at a different one whenever anyone asks what time it is. Nobody fucking knows. Secondly, typical balanced portfolio of 60/40 is neither typical nor balanced, those depend entirely on the circumstances of the individual investor. Thirdly, they're cherry picking dates here. They're using a start date of September 2006 to argue their point, does that not seem a little strange to you? Fourthly, 6.6% compounding, or even 5% compounding in real terms, is still a shitton of money. Fifthly, just as a simple exercise in compounding I ran a basic calculation.

If you work for 45 years and in the first year save $5,000, second year $6,000 and so forth (inflation adjusted) with 5% compounding growth then you end up with $3,092,503.90. You actually hit the inflation adjusted million dollar mark after just 30 years.

Sorry, but not only am I not even slightly worried by your cherry picked stopped clock but it actually illustrates my point, not yours. Your worst case scenario puts someone saving just $5,000 a year (with small annual increases) at over $3 million dollars.


just briefly:

no it doesn't seem odd that they picked sept 2006, since that's a ten year run. they are comparing it to the next ten year run.

the point of the article is that the simulation has 0% probability of achieving at least 5%. using 5% then, is already working outside the assumptions

i am not getting 3mill. whats your max contribution? are you assuming median income and are you considering what total net income is after such contributions?

let's consider the far more realistic but still ambitious working llife of 40 years with $5k contributions annually. at a 4% rate of return i'm looking at $700k before taxes.



Adjust your annual contributions by inflation and you will see that number change drastically. granted the inflation adjusted values of either your or Kwarks scenario in todays dollars will be significantly less, but you get the idea. BTW thank you Kwark for putting me on the path to dollar dollar bills y'all.
I am, therefore I pee
Trainrunnef
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States601 Posts
October 27 2016 20:48 GMT
#115734
On October 28 2016 05:43 KwarK wrote:
Igne, I don't know why you can't use Excel so I can't speak for your numbers, only my own. Your assumption of the same amount being saved in the first year of working (18?) and the year they retire (58, good for them, early retirement) is unrealistic. People typically experience an increase in earning potential with age. However 700k will produce a reliable median income to live on for our early retiree. As for taxes, with just 5k a year and having him be low income for life, that's ROTH IRA territory. No taxes to pay. Not that he's owe taxes on that kind of yield anyway, so the tax status isn't important. Your completely hypothetical and totally unrealistic retirement saver who saves less of his paycheck year on year and retires early, he's fine. Sorry bro.



I took the 40 years more as a late starter to the savings game rather than an early retiree.
I am, therefore I pee
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
October 27 2016 20:53 GMT
#115735
On October 28 2016 04:26 plasmidghost wrote:
https://twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/791668508304310272
If this is true, were polls not nearly as reliable in 1980 as they (mostly) are now?


Is no one going to point out that he's basically implying Clinton should win by a massive landslide the way that tweet is worded.
Logo
Trainrunnef
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States601 Posts
October 27 2016 20:53 GMT
#115736
On October 28 2016 05:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2016 05:17 Mohdoo wrote:
On October 28 2016 04:26 plasmidghost wrote:
https://twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/791668508304310272
If this is true, were polls not nearly as reliable in 1980 as they (mostly) are now?


I would argue it isn't even appropriate making comparisons to 2012. This election is remarkably unique.


I keep seeing the margins detailed, but not the raw totals. Has anyone seen how that compares to 12 or 08?


Are there numbers on the quantity of voters as well? I know that there were concerns of record low disenfranchisement and apathy towards the election but I also heard contradictory reports of record numbers of voter registrations. I would be really happy to see both a large voter turnout and a large margin against trump.
I am, therefore I pee
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
October 27 2016 20:54 GMT
#115737
On October 28 2016 05:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2016 05:17 Mohdoo wrote:
On October 28 2016 04:26 plasmidghost wrote:
https://twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/791668508304310272
If this is true, were polls not nearly as reliable in 1980 as they (mostly) are now?


I would argue it isn't even appropriate making comparisons to 2012. This election is remarkably unique.


I keep seeing the margins detailed, but not the raw totals. Has anyone seen how that compares to 12 or 08?


yeah, fuck if I know. It's funny how with Clinton and Trump, we would expect turn out to be horribly low. And yet, because of Clinton and Trump, they are each encouraging turn out on the *other* side. So maybe this ends up being even higher turnout than 08? That'd be hilarious.

At the end of the day, hatred and fear will always be the greatest motivators for human action. Hope, excitement and happiness can't compete.

My shot in the dark prediction is that Clinton will have a wider lead than Obama from early voting, but her day-of voting will be worse. I think she'll end up winning, but not by the margin being predicted by the early voting.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
October 27 2016 20:56 GMT
#115738
On October 28 2016 05:43 KwarK wrote:
Igne, I don't know why you can't use Excel so I can't speak for your numbers, only my own. Your assumption of the same amount being saved in the first year of working (18?) and the year they retire (58, good for them, early retirement) is unrealistic. People typically experience an increase in earning potential with age. However 700k will produce a reliable median income to live on for our early retiree. As for taxes, with just 5k a year and having him be low income for life, that's ROTH IRA territory. No taxes to pay. Not that he's owe taxes on that kind of yield anyway, so the tax status isn't important. Your completely hypothetical and totally unrealistic retirement saver who saves less of his paycheck year on year and retires early, he's fine. Sorry bro.


you are basically assuming an upper middle class worker then. if the contributions go up over 5k maybe we should assume a young'n with a ~30k annual salary and no contributions till age 29. i assume you know what "median" means? do i need to pull up a graph of real wages vs time for the last three decades?

you pretend like im ridiculous and wave your hands "its math, open an excel worksheet". yah ok. youve proved that kwarks everywhere can expect at least 700k. sadly not even millionaires.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
October 27 2016 21:03 GMT
#115739
these kinds of assumption flaws are typical of what passes for financial "common sense" these days. a 22 year old worker starts at median wage and then his his salary increases steadily until he dies right guys????
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 27 2016 21:04 GMT
#115740
Invest all your money at a guaranteed year-on-year 8% interest payout and you too can be a billionaire by the time you retire.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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