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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 5359

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
October 06 2016 21:16 GMT
#107161
On October 07 2016 06:14 Dan HH wrote:
What's with the recent clown hysteria? I thought it was satire at first

It's like the new Slender Man or something. Basically internet driven urban legends.

Plus clowns are terrifying.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-06 21:22:05
October 06 2016 21:19 GMT
#107162
On October 07 2016 06:11 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2016 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 07 2016 05:43 WolfintheSheep wrote:
That large charity organizations suck when it comes to money management is a bad fact of life, basically. Note those articles pretty say Red Cross and Salvation Army are just as bad.

Fact that Hillary's brother got into gold mining in Haiti, or that Foundation donors are involved in some relief effort businesses is not all too shocking either. Charities basically end up being run like businesses, for better or for worse, when 8, 9, 10 figures start getting involved, and quite a bit of business is about networking and dealing with who you know. And charity dinners and fundraisers basically end up being some of the best meet-and-greet opportunities available. If it was purely donation = business, then yes, 100% corruption.

Is the Clinton Foundation well run? Not really. Compared to other charity organizations of similar size? Apparently run better than those. Should any of these orgs be given free passes because they represent good causes? No, especially they completely fail at their goals.

At the same time, though, these charities also face some of the worst logistics nightmares you can imagine. So a lot of problems people perceive as corruption or mismanagement are more like endless roadblocks and bureaucracy. You can't just march an international organization into another country and start building houses or hospitals. And you can't just hire whoever you want to build in another country either. Things like zoning, planning, permits and approvals still apply, though I imagine they're expedited to a large degree because of the situation and the representation.

Part of the benefit of these charity organizations is having the clout and reputation to cut through a lot of the bullshit.


I'd point out that none of the three charities mentioned are in the top 10 for ratings. They do share one thing in common though, they all have names that give them more credibility than organizations with higher ratings.

That's not to say I don't take your point about the pitfalls of human endeavors of such magnitude, but it doesn't explain away as much as you seem to want it to.

true they're not top 10. but they are well rated (well, at least clinton one is very well rated). While we may not be entirely sure of your intent; mostly it comes off as you being a hard-core clinton hater.


Wrong, you just have to read what he says, /sarcasm

ineffective charity.. wrong - its pretty effective. It has its weaknesses and flaws because the undertakings are very ambitious but it is certainly not ineffective

loading up peoples coffers ]- again with projects that revolve around revitalization and rebuilding someone is going to make money. Some of it may not be appropriate recompense but depending on the shit you have to wade through there are compromises you could make as long as you get "something" done.

Is that something you could criticize them for ? Absolutely and I dont agree with alot of it and I would be intensely critical of it. But I have had my taste of working with ngo's and other projects in redevelopement and relief + Show Spoiler +
(2005 earthquake Pakistan look it up)
and there is a fair bit of hanky panky that goes on just to get something done because believe or not alot of dishonest people need to be worked with to get shit done. Its sometimes just a reality of being able to do something rather than nothing. Its ugly, wasteful and inefficient, but its pragmatic and effective. Thats my personal view ofcourse and I believe the Clinton foundation would be no different. It makes you hate yourself and you feel disgusted by it literally, but the world doesnt work to make you feel good about yourself always. Even charities are zero sum sometimes.

Again there isnt any evidence of using charity funds specifically and putting them in peoples pockets directly or indirectly with corrupt intent without actually getting anything done (which lots of charities do in these cases btw). This might even be happening but I would like to see something concrete instead of the GH connect the dots version.




GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24453 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-06 21:26:27
October 06 2016 21:25 GMT
#107163
On October 07 2016 06:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2016 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 07 2016 05:43 WolfintheSheep wrote:
That large charity organizations suck when it comes to money management is a bad fact of life, basically. Note those articles pretty say Red Cross and Salvation Army are just as bad.

Fact that Hillary's brother got into gold mining in Haiti, or that Foundation donors are involved in some relief effort businesses is not all too shocking either. Charities basically end up being run like businesses, for better or for worse, when 8, 9, 10 figures start getting involved, and quite a bit of business is about networking and dealing with who you know. And charity dinners and fundraisers basically end up being some of the best meet-and-greet opportunities available. If it was purely donation = business, then yes, 100% corruption.

Is the Clinton Foundation well run? Not really. Compared to other charity organizations of similar size? Apparently run better than those. Should any of these orgs be given free passes because they represent good causes? No, especially they completely fail at their goals.

At the same time, though, these charities also face some of the worst logistics nightmares you can imagine. So a lot of problems people perceive as corruption or mismanagement are more like endless roadblocks and bureaucracy. You can't just march an international organization into another country and start building houses or hospitals. And you can't just hire whoever you want to build in another country either. Things like zoning, planning, permits and approvals still apply, though I imagine they're expedited to a large degree because of the situation and the representation.

Part of the benefit of these charity organizations is having the clout and reputation to cut through a lot of the bullshit.

I'd point out that none of the three charities mentioned are in the top 10 for ratings. They do share one thing in common though, they all have names that give them more credibility than organizations with higher ratings.

That's not to say I don't take your point about the pitfalls of human endeavors of such magnitude, but it doesn't explain away as much as you seem to want it to.

Sure, but #10 on that list is 95.48, and Clinton Foundation is 94.74, so not Top 10 but probably Top 20? (Apparently no way to sort the full listings)

Yeah, Red Cross is fairly average/mediocre, Salvation Army doesn't even have ratings.


It's no coincidence that's who they choose to compare themselves to.

Suppose it's also worth noting that the Clinton Foundation appears to receive significantly more of it's funding from government grants than those or other comparable charities. Is the Clinton Foundation the worst out there? Not by far. Does it have enough problems that it makes disaster aid a dangerous topic for Clinton, I think so. Particularly when Trump is considered trustworthy by more people than Clinton

which was my point in the first place @rebs.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 06 2016 21:34 GMT
#107164
I woudn't take that poll to heart. Trump is disliked far more than Clinton on numerious metrics and polls

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-is-more-unpopular-than-clinton-is-and-that-matters/

Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are the two most disliked presidential nominees in modern American history. That was true at the beginning of this campaign, and, as we sprint toward Election Day, it’s still true now. But equating Clinton’s and Trump’s popularity problems misses a meaningful part of the story. Sure, they both have terrible favorability ratings compared to past presidential candidates, but Clinton has consistently been more popular than Trump, and we’re now at the point in the campaign when that difference suggests Clinton has a clear advantage.


Neither are good, but Trump is far more disliked.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
October 06 2016 21:36 GMT
#107165
wonder if there's any polling on trump from before the election.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24453 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-06 21:41:46
October 06 2016 21:40 GMT
#107166
On October 07 2016 06:34 Plansix wrote:
I woudn't take that poll to heart. Trump is disliked far more than Clinton on numerious metrics and polls

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-is-more-unpopular-than-clinton-is-and-that-matters/

Show nested quote +
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are the two most disliked presidential nominees in modern American history. That was true at the beginning of this campaign, and, as we sprint toward Election Day, it’s still true now. But equating Clinton’s and Trump’s popularity problems misses a meaningful part of the story. Sure, they both have terrible favorability ratings compared to past presidential candidates, but Clinton has consistently been more popular than Trump, and we’re now at the point in the campaign when that difference suggests Clinton has a clear advantage.


Neither are good, but Trump is far more disliked.


It's a fascinating dynamic, less liked but more trusted. Neither makes sense to me.

Outside of his actual words, Trump seems like a far more affable person, but one of the most easily proven to be a habitual liar. While Hillary is about as congenial as a rock (except in some intimate gatherings) and has the fiercest defenders on the veracity of her statements.

I mean both their favorable's are terrible (literally the worst in history) but it seems like that dynamic should be reversed if anything.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 06 2016 21:43 GMT
#107167
Trump seems like a person you could co-exist with during dinner, but any long term relationship with the man is impossible. And only if you are a dudes. Women can't have any sort of relationship with that man.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6643 Posts
October 06 2016 21:44 GMT
#107168
https://www.qu.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2228

May 28, 2015 - Five Leaders In 2016 Republican White House Race, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Rubio, Paul Are Only Republicans Even Close To Clinton

In a general election matchup, Clinton gets 46 percent of American voters to 42 percent for Paul and 45 percent of voters to 41 percent for Rubio. She leads other top Republicans:
46 - 37 percent over Christie;
47 - 40 percent over Huckabee;
47 - 37 percent over Bush;
46 - 38 percent over Walker;
48 - 37 percent over Cruz;
50 - 32 percent over Trump.


34. (Split Sample) Is your opinion of Donald Trump favorable, unfavorable or haven't you heard enough about him?

                Tot Rep Dem Ind Men Wom
Favorable 20% 34% 7% 20% 23% 18%
Unfavorable 69 52 85 69 67 70
Hvn't hrd enough 10 13 7 11 10 11
REFUSED 1 1 1 - 1 1

"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4460 Posts
October 06 2016 21:45 GMT
#107169
Clinton and Trump are close to equally disliked.Unless those polls have changed markedly in the past month.

Putin banner hung from NYC bridge.Truth hurts.
http://gothamist.com/2016/10/06/putin_banner_manhattan_bridge.php#photo-1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4460 Posts
October 06 2016 21:48 GMT
#107170
On October 07 2016 06:44 oBlade wrote:
https://www.qu.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2228

Show nested quote +
May 28, 2015 - Five Leaders In 2016 Republican White House Race, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Rubio, Paul Are Only Republicans Even Close To Clinton

In a general election matchup, Clinton gets 46 percent of American voters to 42 percent for Paul and 45 percent of voters to 41 percent for Rubio. She leads other top Republicans:
46 - 37 percent over Christie;
47 - 40 percent over Huckabee;
47 - 37 percent over Bush;
46 - 38 percent over Walker;
48 - 37 percent over Cruz;
50 - 32 percent over Trump.


34. (Split Sample) Is your opinion of Donald Trump favorable, unfavorable or haven't you heard enough about him?

                Tot Rep Dem Ind Men Wom
Favorable 20% 34% 7% 20% 23% 18%
Unfavorable 69 52 85 69 67 70
Hvn't hrd enough 10 13 7 11 10 11
REFUSED 1 1 1 - 1 1


Almost 18 months old.
Far newer polling out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6643 Posts
October 06 2016 21:49 GMT
#107171
On October 07 2016 06:48 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2016 06:44 oBlade wrote:
https://www.qu.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2228

May 28, 2015 - Five Leaders In 2016 Republican White House Race, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Rubio, Paul Are Only Republicans Even Close To Clinton

In a general election matchup, Clinton gets 46 percent of American voters to 42 percent for Paul and 45 percent of voters to 41 percent for Rubio. She leads other top Republicans:
46 - 37 percent over Christie;
47 - 40 percent over Huckabee;
47 - 37 percent over Bush;
46 - 38 percent over Walker;
48 - 37 percent over Cruz;
50 - 32 percent over Trump.


34. (Split Sample) Is your opinion of Donald Trump favorable, unfavorable or haven't you heard enough about him?

                Tot Rep Dem Ind Men Wom
Favorable 20% 34% 7% 20% 23% 18%
Unfavorable 69 52 85 69 67 70
Hvn't hrd enough 10 13 7 11 10 11
REFUSED 1 1 1 - 1 1


Almost 18 months old.
Far newer polling out there.

You don't have to read the whole thread but you can at least read the page that you're on.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24453 Posts
October 06 2016 21:49 GMT
#107172
On October 07 2016 06:43 Plansix wrote:
Trump seems like a person you could co-exist with during dinner, but any long term relationship with the man is impossible. And only if you are a dudes. Women can't have any sort of relationship with that man.


Yeah I suppose the way women line up could explain quite a bit of that. I could see a lot of women saying they trust Trump, but don't like him and don't trust Hillary but think she's "likable enough".
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-06 21:51:23
October 06 2016 21:50 GMT
#107173
The Putin propaganda about being a peace maker is so comical. An autocrat who has in fact created no peace at all and has assisted in the bombing of humanitarian convoys just this week. But his fans on the internet seem to have found the a way to create some memeworthy shit.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4460 Posts
October 06 2016 21:51 GMT
#107174
Aug 31 - Among registered voters
Clinton disapproval 59%
Trump disapproval 60%
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/08/31/a-record-number-of-americans-now-dislike-hillary-clinton/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 06 2016 21:52 GMT
#107175
On October 07 2016 06:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2016 06:43 Plansix wrote:
Trump seems like a person you could co-exist with during dinner, but any long term relationship with the man is impossible. And only if you are a dudes. Women can't have any sort of relationship with that man.


Yeah I suppose the way women line up could explain quite a bit of that. I could see a lot of women saying they trust Trump, but don't like him and don't trust Hillary but think she's "likable enough".

Trump's polling with women is terrible. Like horrific on every scale. He has having a tough time with Republican women, forget independents.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9253 Posts
October 06 2016 21:54 GMT
#107176
On October 07 2016 06:50 Plansix wrote:
The Putin propaganda about being a peace maker is so comical. An autocrat who has in fact created no peace at all and has assisted in the bombing of humanitarian convoys just this week. But his fans on the internet seem to have found the a way to create some memeworthy shit.

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe 'truth hurts' was a rare moment of self-reflection from Nettle given his relationship with it
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-06 21:56:44
October 06 2016 21:55 GMT
#107177
On October 07 2016 06:54 Dan HH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2016 06:50 Plansix wrote:
The Putin propaganda about being a peace maker is so comical. An autocrat who has in fact created no peace at all and has assisted in the bombing of humanitarian convoys just this week. But his fans on the internet seem to have found the a way to create some memeworthy shit.

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe 'truth hurts' was a rare moment of self-reflection from Nettle given his relationship with it

2016 will go down as one of the longest years in US history. The year where we stare into the abyss and realize it sort of looks like social media.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4460 Posts
October 06 2016 21:56 GMT
#107178
On October 07 2016 06:50 Plansix wrote:
The Putin propaganda about being a peace maker is so comical. An autocrat who has in fact created no peace at all and has assisted in the bombing of humanitarian convoys just this week. But his fans on the internet seem to have found the a way to create some memeworthy shit.

Humanitarian convoys that always seem to get to the "moderate rebels" (Al-Qaeda).Meanwhile the US bombed the Syrian army during a cease fire just a couple of weeks ago.

Ever notice over the past 15 years every country in the middle east the USA invades becomes a clusterfuck? Iraq-Afghan-Libya-Syria.Nice record.I'll back Putin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-06 22:00:28
October 06 2016 21:59 GMT
#107179
On October 07 2016 06:56 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2016 06:50 Plansix wrote:
The Putin propaganda about being a peace maker is so comical. An autocrat who has in fact created no peace at all and has assisted in the bombing of humanitarian convoys just this week. But his fans on the internet seem to have found the a way to create some memeworthy shit.

Humanitarian convoys that always seem to get to the "moderate rebels" (Al-Qaeda).Meanwhile the US bombed the Syrian army during a cease fire just a couple of weeks ago.

Ever notice over the past 15 years every country in the middle east the USA invades becomes a clusterfuck? Iraq-Afghan-Libya-Syria.Nice record.I'll back Putin.

Yeah, well we did completely fuck up there and we have no one to blame but ourselves. If you want to rest your hopes on a man who poisons the free press when they disparage him, I guess that is your decision. But then again, its not like you have any stakes in the game being across the globe. I can back shitty people in countries so far away that they will never effect me in any way too.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4460 Posts
October 06 2016 22:14 GMT
#107180
Fact is Russia wants to keep Assad, USA wants him killed and a puppet put in his place.Exact same story as in Libya.Libya was the richest per capita country in North Africa before 2011.Now, like Syria they're producing hundreds of thousands of refugees.

Personally I think Assad should stay but if he is killed then that could signify the start of a wider conflict with Russia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
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