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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 30 2016 06:51 Sent. wrote:
Whoever said "white culture" first in this discussion deserves a straw man of the day award.
Stormfront?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 30 2016 06:51 Sent. wrote:
Whoever said "white culture" first in this discussion deserves a straw man of the day award.
A quick search suggests this was the first direct mention of the term in this discussion:
On September 30 2016 06:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 06:02 LegalLord wrote:On September 30 2016 06:00 Grumbels wrote:On September 30 2016 05:54 xDaunt wrote:On September 30 2016 05:13 TheDwf wrote:On September 30 2016 04:53 xDaunt wrote:On September 30 2016 04:44 Dan HH wrote:On September 30 2016 04:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 30 2016 03:55 Dan HH wrote:On September 30 2016 03:17 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Wonder what the people that were arguing here that the alt-right isn't racist think about what those speakers Again, it depends upon your definition of "alt right." Interestingly enough, there appears to be quite a battle going on between the racist and non-racist elements of the alt right over control of the "alt right brand" and "alt right movement." Long story short, the alt right is quite fluid right now. While it's not a homogeneous movement by any means, I'm not aware of a single alt-right community that rejects racism. In fact, racism (the self professed kind, not the kind where you argue whether it really is racism or not) is the one element that is persistent between all the places that call themselves 'alt-right', from /r/the_donald to /pol/ to Breitbart comments to The Right Stuff to Daily Stormer and the likes. I guess it depends upon how you define "racism." If you go by Vox Day's dichotomy of the alt right, there's the "alt west" and the "alt white." Alt west cares about culture. Alt white cares about (white) race. In my opinion, the alt west movement isn't racist (it's race neutral), but anyone who adopts one of those over-expansive definitions of racism that I railed against a week or so ago may disagree on that point. Yeah... except racism has precisely long been revamped around culture, if only to be more acceptable. Biological racialism and antisemitism have been completely shunned by the contemporary standards, so racist ideologies had to evolve and “reinvente themselves”. In France this is partly how the Front National rose; its new leader put under the carpet the most crude/obvious stuff that the former one was still saying (“I believe in unequal races” etc.), and now uses the language of “culture”: our culture and values are radically, fundamentally incompatible with such people (who can't be assimilated, etc.) and such religion, follow my eyes... Targets the same people, but avoids all drawbacks associated with racism 1.0, especially historical links to nazis or fascists. Racialism is actually an obsolete language, it's a ghost from the XIXth century; clever racists moved on the new, much more profitable battleground: culture/civilization. I get your point, but (and to the extent that you're doing this) labeling critiques and defenses of culture (including criticisms of multiculturalism) as racist is reductive, boring, and -- quite frankly -- dangerous. It is not so reductive as you might think, because crude racism underpins virtually all these alt-right arguments about culture. While true, it's also true that an expansive definition of racism is used to dismiss more genuine arguments about culture by implying that they are all just closet racists. The pearl clutching about “white culture” does not seem worth the baggage that comes with the alt-right. If have deep concerns of the “America white culture” being destroyed somehow, they can discuss that outside of the context of the alt-right. And being white part of that culture, I’m not really seeing the risk to our culture being wiped out. Or why we should care.
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On September 30 2016 06:53 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 06:40 TheYango wrote:
"Black culture" usually is meant to refer specifically to "African American culture". I believe African-American means black to almost anyone who hears it. You would get looked at odd if you put Elon Musk in an African-American culture museum, or a black culture museum (and such centers do exist). Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 06:45 Grumbels wrote:On September 30 2016 06:38 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:36 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:34 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:30 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:29 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:17 Slaughter wrote:
Discussing "white culture" is pretty problematic, especially in the US. What are people talking about when they use this term? Presumably, it means the culture of white people. It doesn't exist. Of course not, neither does black culture. Yep, glad we got there in the end. You are learning and should be proud of your progress. So we're both in favor of skipping black history month. You can't distinguish between garden variety mainstream western culture, with all its cross pollination from cultural mixing, and whatever is "white culture", whereas something like black culture is defined in contrast to the standard culture. White culture is just the culture, it is not separate from it. On the other hand you can talk about minority cultures in this sense because they fall outside the mainstream. You can separate it, because something being the most prominent, by virtue of having the most people, doesn't make it identical to the average. When you say you can't conceptually separate white culture from Western culture, or from American culture, you're tacitly suggesting nonwhites didn't add anything to whatever that concept refers to.
I am not sure how I can explain this to you on a mobile phone, but obviously the point is that when, say, black music becomes part of western culture it automatically becomes part of white culture, because the latter doesn't really exist and is just a term used by racists who don't understand the concept of hegemonic culture.
That is to say, there is no separate white culture, when stormfront types talk about it they are inventing something artificial as they speak.
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How are these people suppose to retire if only 1/3 increased their net worth
Independent voters have a dimmer outlook on their financial security than Democrats or Republicans, a sentiment that could hurt Hillary Clinton’s chances of becoming president.
A larger percentage of independent voters feel less secure about their jobs, worse about their savings and more uncomfortable with their debt than those registered with the two major parties, according to a new Bankrate.com analysis.
Overall, only 20 percent of independent voters feel they are better off today than 12 months ago, compared with 29 percent for Republicans and 30 percent for Democrats.
The only bright spot is net worth. Twenty-eight percent of independents say they have a higher net worth today, versus just 20 percent who say they have a lower one. But their optimism still lags Democrats and Republicans. A third of Republicans and 36 percent of Democrats say their net worth has improved in the last year.
“The economy is a huge issue in this election year and people, rightly or wrongly, hold the White House accountable for the economy,” says Claes Bell, a Bankrate analyst. “If the Obama years have not been good for them financially, then that will weigh on their decision whether to vote for Hillary Clinton who is a close ally of Obama and whose policies are a continuation of his.”
A broad look at the economy during the Obama years shows many successes. Since President Obama took office in January 2009, the Standard & Poor’s 500 index has risen almost 167 percent and U.S. home prices have increased 22 percent.
Private sector jobs have grown for a record 77 straight months, and the unemployment rate has fallen to 4.9 percent. Most recently, the median household income rose by 5.2 percent in 2015, marking the largest single-year increase since 1967, when records were first kept.
Still, the median household income remains 1.6 percent lower than in 2007, after adjusting for inflation. And many of the gains from the economic recovery have gone to top earners.
“I think it’s probably the case that Americans are thinking about how the economy was after the financial crisis and that shock has stuck around,” Bell says. “I also think a lot of people would agree that the benefits of economic growth haven’t been spread evenly.”
Overall, Democrats reported the brightest financial outlook. They felt the best about job security and their savings level and were most likely to report a higher net worth.
Overall, Democrats had the greatest likelihood of saying their financial security had improved. Republicans reported slightly higher job security and higher net worth compared to a year ago, but said their overall financial security had declined a bit.
Bankrate used its monthly Financial Security Index survey to find the results. Independents made up the largest share of survey respondents.
This story was originally published by The Fiscal Times.
Source
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The only people who really care about "white culture" as a concept are the white nationalist/alt white factions of the alt right. The rest of the alt right is more concerned about western culture.
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On September 30 2016 06:38 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 06:36 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:34 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:30 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:29 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:17 Slaughter wrote:
Discussing "white culture" is pretty problematic, especially in the US. What are people talking about when they use this term? Presumably, it means the culture of white people. It doesn't exist. Of course not, neither does black culture. Yep, glad we got there in the end. You are learning and should be proud of your progress. So we're both in favor of skipping black history month.
What the heck does black history month have to do with "black culture" exactly? I don't remember learning about cultural aspects of being black, I remember learning about black people who played pivotal roles in history. At least at my school.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 30 2016 07:08 xDaunt wrote:
The only people who really care about "white culture" as a concept are the white nationalist/alt white factions of the alt right. The rest of the alt right is more concerned about western culture.
Also the people who want to strawman and lump people into a group with the white nationalists for political expediency. They care a fair bit about the concept.
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On September 30 2016 07:02 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 06:53 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:40 TheYango wrote:
"Black culture" usually is meant to refer specifically to "African American culture". I believe African-American means black to almost anyone who hears it. You would get looked at odd if you put Elon Musk in an African-American culture museum, or a black culture museum (and such centers do exist). On September 30 2016 06:45 Grumbels wrote:On September 30 2016 06:38 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:36 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:34 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:30 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:29 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:17 Slaughter wrote:
Discussing "white culture" is pretty problematic, especially in the US. What are people talking about when they use this term? Presumably, it means the culture of white people. It doesn't exist. Of course not, neither does black culture. Yep, glad we got there in the end. You are learning and should be proud of your progress. So we're both in favor of skipping black history month. You can't distinguish between garden variety mainstream western culture, with all its cross pollination from cultural mixing, and whatever is "white culture", whereas something like black culture is defined in contrast to the standard culture. White culture is just the culture, it is not separate from it. On the other hand you can talk about minority cultures in this sense because they fall outside the mainstream. You can separate it, because something being the most prominent, by virtue of having the most people, doesn't make it identical to the average. When you say you can't conceptually separate white culture from Western culture, or from American culture, you're tacitly suggesting nonwhites didn't add anything to whatever that concept refers to. I am not sure how I can explain this to you on a mobile phone, but obviously the point is that when, say, black music becomes part of western culture it automatically becomes part of white culture, because the latter doesn't really exist and is just a term used by racists who don't understand the concept of hegemonic culture.
You're just choosing to draw different lines in the sand, or why is the hegemony not "world culture" that precludes the existence of the concept of western culture?
On September 30 2016 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
That is to say, there is no separate white culture, when stormfront types talk about it they are inventing something artificial as they speak.
By separate you mean nonoverlapping, of course that'd be true. But if you have a beam of yellow light, and break up its spectrum, and find it's got a small proportion of blue light, the blue doesn't "become" yellow even though together with all the other frequencies it makes yellow.
On September 30 2016 07:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 06:38 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:36 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:34 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:30 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:29 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:17 Slaughter wrote:
Discussing "white culture" is pretty problematic, especially in the US. What are people talking about when they use this term? Presumably, it means the culture of white people. It doesn't exist. Of course not, neither does black culture. Yep, glad we got there in the end. You are learning and should be proud of your progress. So we're both in favor of skipping black history month. What the heck does black history month have to do with "black culture" exactly? I don't remember learning about cultural aspects of being black, I remember learning about black people who played pivotal roles in history. At least at my school.
I was probing why black history is a concept people accept readily, but black culture apparently isn't even though there's universities with centers dedicated to it.
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On September 30 2016 07:08 xDaunt wrote:
The only people who really care about "white culture" as a concept are the white nationalist/alt white factions of the alt right. The rest of the alt right is more concerned about western culture.
Everybody in the West is concerned about Western culture given that they all live in it. This is comparable to the terrorism debate where for some reason some people believe that only they care about terrorist threats
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Funny, I came across a poll from a French polling organization in which the following question was asked:
According to you, did the campaign started by the US since 2001 to fight against terrorism make life safer in the world?
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/277581PoltrUS.jpg) TOTAL Yes• Yes, certainly • Yes, rather TOTAL No• No, rather not • No, not at all No answer TOTAL
Seems like your media machine and/or patriotism did a nice job to intoxicate people...
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Being an ocean away from the consequences of our FP actions doesn't hurt.
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On September 30 2016 07:27 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 07:02 Grumbels wrote:On September 30 2016 06:53 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:40 TheYango wrote:
"Black culture" usually is meant to refer specifically to "African American culture". I believe African-American means black to almost anyone who hears it. You would get looked at odd if you put Elon Musk in an African-American culture museum, or a black culture museum (and such centers do exist). On September 30 2016 06:45 Grumbels wrote:On September 30 2016 06:38 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:36 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:34 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:30 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:29 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:17 Slaughter wrote:
Discussing "white culture" is pretty problematic, especially in the US. What are people talking about when they use this term? Presumably, it means the culture of white people. It doesn't exist. Of course not, neither does black culture. Yep, glad we got there in the end. You are learning and should be proud of your progress. So we're both in favor of skipping black history month. You can't distinguish between garden variety mainstream western culture, with all its cross pollination from cultural mixing, and whatever is "white culture", whereas something like black culture is defined in contrast to the standard culture. White culture is just the culture, it is not separate from it. On the other hand you can talk about minority cultures in this sense because they fall outside the mainstream. You can separate it, because something being the most prominent, by virtue of having the most people, doesn't make it identical to the average. When you say you can't conceptually separate white culture from Western culture, or from American culture, you're tacitly suggesting nonwhites didn't add anything to whatever that concept refers to. I am not sure how I can explain this to you on a mobile phone, but obviously the point is that when, say, black music becomes part of western culture it automatically becomes part of white culture, because the latter doesn't really exist and is just a term used by racists who don't understand the concept of hegemonic culture. You're just choosing to draw different lines in the sand, or why is the hegemony not "world culture" that precludes the existence of the concept of western culture? Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
That is to say, there is no separate white culture, when stormfront types talk about it they are inventing something artificial as they speak. By separate you mean nonoverlapping, of course that'd be true. But if you have a beam of yellow light, and break up its spectrum, and find it's got a small proportion of blue light, the blue doesn't "become" yellow even though together with all the other frequencies it makes yellow. Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 07:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:On September 30 2016 06:38 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:36 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:34 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:30 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:29 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:17 Slaughter wrote:
Discussing "white culture" is pretty problematic, especially in the US. What are people talking about when they use this term? Presumably, it means the culture of white people. It doesn't exist. Of course not, neither does black culture. Yep, glad we got there in the end. You are learning and should be proud of your progress. So we're both in favor of skipping black history month. What the heck does black history month have to do with "black culture" exactly? I don't remember learning about cultural aspects of being black, I remember learning about black people who played pivotal roles in history. At least at my school. I was probing why black history is a concept people accept readily, but black culture apparently isn't even though there's universities with centers dedicated to it.
that light spectrum example is idiotic, we are talking about culture where cultural hegemony is relevant, i.e. power dynamics
Will you please understand that white culture is a too loaded term which cant be used in good faith because it ignores historical context of white domination of mainstream cultuee...
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On September 30 2016 07:19 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 07:08 xDaunt wrote:
The only people who really care about "white culture" as a concept are the white nationalist/alt white factions of the alt right. The rest of the alt right is more concerned about western culture. Also the people who want to strawman and lump people into a group with the white nationalists for political expediency. They care a fair bit about the concept.
You're right, we can't forget about those fools.
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On September 30 2016 07:41 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 07:27 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 07:02 Grumbels wrote:On September 30 2016 06:53 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:40 TheYango wrote:
"Black culture" usually is meant to refer specifically to "African American culture". I believe African-American means black to almost anyone who hears it. You would get looked at odd if you put Elon Musk in an African-American culture museum, or a black culture museum (and such centers do exist). On September 30 2016 06:45 Grumbels wrote:On September 30 2016 06:38 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:36 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:34 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:30 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:29 oBlade wrote:
[quote]
Presumably, it means the culture of white people. It doesn't exist. Of course not, neither does black culture. Yep, glad we got there in the end. You are learning and should be proud of your progress. So we're both in favor of skipping black history month. You can't distinguish between garden variety mainstream western culture, with all its cross pollination from cultural mixing, and whatever is "white culture", whereas something like black culture is defined in contrast to the standard culture. White culture is just the culture, it is not separate from it. On the other hand you can talk about minority cultures in this sense because they fall outside the mainstream. You can separate it, because something being the most prominent, by virtue of having the most people, doesn't make it identical to the average. When you say you can't conceptually separate white culture from Western culture, or from American culture, you're tacitly suggesting nonwhites didn't add anything to whatever that concept refers to. I am not sure how I can explain this to you on a mobile phone, but obviously the point is that when, say, black music becomes part of western culture it automatically becomes part of white culture, because the latter doesn't really exist and is just a term used by racists who don't understand the concept of hegemonic culture. You're just choosing to draw different lines in the sand, or why is the hegemony not "world culture" that precludes the existence of the concept of western culture? On September 30 2016 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
That is to say, there is no separate white culture, when stormfront types talk about it they are inventing something artificial as they speak. By separate you mean nonoverlapping, of course that'd be true. But if you have a beam of yellow light, and break up its spectrum, and find it's got a small proportion of blue light, the blue doesn't "become" yellow even though together with all the other frequencies it makes yellow. On September 30 2016 07:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:On September 30 2016 06:38 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:36 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:34 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:30 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:29 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:17 Slaughter wrote:
Discussing "white culture" is pretty problematic, especially in the US. What are people talking about when they use this term? Presumably, it means the culture of white people. It doesn't exist. Of course not, neither does black culture. Yep, glad we got there in the end. You are learning and should be proud of your progress. So we're both in favor of skipping black history month. What the heck does black history month have to do with "black culture" exactly? I don't remember learning about cultural aspects of being black, I remember learning about black people who played pivotal roles in history. At least at my school. I was probing why black history is a concept people accept readily, but black culture apparently isn't even though there's universities with centers dedicated to it. that light spectrum example is idiotic, we are talking about culture where cultural hegemony is relevant, i.e. power dynamics Will you please understand that white culture is a too loaded term which cant be used in good faith because it ignores historical context of white domination of mainstream cultuee...
I cannot, because this an insulated view of the world and it's not a method of understanding culture that scales or transfers when you look at humans in general, i.e. outside of the evil colonialist country where the people drawing up the theories happen to have been born.
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On September 30 2016 07:41 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 07:27 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 07:02 Grumbels wrote:On September 30 2016 06:53 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:40 TheYango wrote:
"Black culture" usually is meant to refer specifically to "African American culture". I believe African-American means black to almost anyone who hears it. You would get looked at odd if you put Elon Musk in an African-American culture museum, or a black culture museum (and such centers do exist). On September 30 2016 06:45 Grumbels wrote:On September 30 2016 06:38 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:36 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:34 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:30 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:29 oBlade wrote:
[quote]
Presumably, it means the culture of white people. It doesn't exist. Of course not, neither does black culture. Yep, glad we got there in the end. You are learning and should be proud of your progress. So we're both in favor of skipping black history month. You can't distinguish between garden variety mainstream western culture, with all its cross pollination from cultural mixing, and whatever is "white culture", whereas something like black culture is defined in contrast to the standard culture. White culture is just the culture, it is not separate from it. On the other hand you can talk about minority cultures in this sense because they fall outside the mainstream. You can separate it, because something being the most prominent, by virtue of having the most people, doesn't make it identical to the average. When you say you can't conceptually separate white culture from Western culture, or from American culture, you're tacitly suggesting nonwhites didn't add anything to whatever that concept refers to. I am not sure how I can explain this to you on a mobile phone, but obviously the point is that when, say, black music becomes part of western culture it automatically becomes part of white culture, because the latter doesn't really exist and is just a term used by racists who don't understand the concept of hegemonic culture. You're just choosing to draw different lines in the sand, or why is the hegemony not "world culture" that precludes the existence of the concept of western culture? On September 30 2016 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
That is to say, there is no separate white culture, when stormfront types talk about it they are inventing something artificial as they speak. By separate you mean nonoverlapping, of course that'd be true. But if you have a beam of yellow light, and break up its spectrum, and find it's got a small proportion of blue light, the blue doesn't "become" yellow even though together with all the other frequencies it makes yellow. On September 30 2016 07:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:On September 30 2016 06:38 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:36 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:34 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:30 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2016 06:29 oBlade wrote:On September 30 2016 06:17 Slaughter wrote:
Discussing "white culture" is pretty problematic, especially in the US. What are people talking about when they use this term? Presumably, it means the culture of white people. It doesn't exist. Of course not, neither does black culture. Yep, glad we got there in the end. You are learning and should be proud of your progress. So we're both in favor of skipping black history month. What the heck does black history month have to do with "black culture" exactly? I don't remember learning about cultural aspects of being black, I remember learning about black people who played pivotal roles in history. At least at my school. I was probing why black history is a concept people accept readily, but black culture apparently isn't even though there's universities with centers dedicated to it. that light spectrum example is idiotic, we are talking about culture where cultural hegemony is relevant, i.e. power dynamics Will you please understand that white culture is a too loaded term which cant be used in good faith because it ignores historical context of white domination of mainstream cultuee...
That argument is loaded to hell.
SWPL parody is funny and exists because it's an ironic portrayal of cultural stereotypes. These things cross many categories, but don't stifle everything unless you want to be just as ridiculous as the people you criticize i.e. "white culture is dying" nutjobs.
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On September 30 2016 08:19 Plansix wrote:Topical.
Many have said that the review is essentially just a reference to Trump. When asked about it, all the Times said was that "the article speaks for itself."
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EPT
