EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 5152
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4408 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:05 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Not going to go over it too much here because it's OT but 1.5 million Germany just for 2015 : http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-europe-migrants-germany-numbers-idUKKCN0RY0V420151004 and more this year.Sweden took in 163,000 last year with an upper limit 100,000 this year.Sure some are refused but many who are refused go missing.Plus we are forgetting family reunification.Again, this is the last i will post of this here. Germany now expects up to 1.5 million migrants in 2015 Nice try, better luck next time with your numbers. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4748 Posts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population | ||
zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:01 Clonester wrote: Still, the amount of acceptions does not matter, as no accepted seekers do not get removed. The amount of yearly removals to total amount of non accepted is arround 2-4%. I am living in Duisburg Hochfeld, Muslim Population: >50%. City of Pforzheim: Foreign backgroung: 50%, 35-40%. Under 3 year olds foreign descent: over 70% These numbers are from 2010. So really, you can't come up with a city that has 50% muslims, and the best you can do is a 17k suburb which has 43% foreigners, which makes it hard for me to believe that the Muslim population is higher than 50%. Gotcha. | ||
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 26 2016 09:04 FiWiFaKi wrote: Once again, I really assumed this was a given, so pardon my frustration, but I discussed this point so many times, and people make the most silly simplification of them all. If Trump somehow got 30% of the Black vote in the United States, he'd be the undisputed next president of the US... The media would have nothing to talk about. This is what, 14% of the US population, and even less of the voting population? This is a very simple example of how a small minority can greatly influence an election, to a point where it's not even that far-fetched to say that white people don't decide the outcome of elections in the US. I… I don't even know what to say, really. You can always divide the electoral body into subgroups and claim that such or such subgroup was “decisive” because, if, assuming that… So yes, the current numbers are not huge, but remember, this is only one minority group that might not be assimilating well, and those numbers don't take long to grow quickly, just like how in less than 30 years, the White population in the US will go from 63 to 50 percent. Why? Their demographic behaviour isn't particularly different. edit: Also, from a scientific standpoint, I really question the validity of the research here done. If it's what I expect, that they ask 10 people how many Muslims do you think there are in your country, and 9 of them say five, and one person is trying to be a little shit and say 50, your average all of the sudden becomes 9.5% instead of 5% due to 10% outliers. Just one of many finer point that people don't think about before posting studies. If only pollsters had the idea of using representative samples of ~1k people to nullify this! edit2: Also fuck those graphs, the orange areas should be the number listed there minus the dark red number, in its current form it looks misleading at first sight, because it makes it look like there's 31% more Muslims in france than in reality, when what it's saying is that people thought is there are 31% Muslims in France. So yeah, looking at it closer, it's fine, but again, stupid tricks that prevent us having objective arguments over anything, since people want to inject their own bias at every chance they get. The graph is perfectly fine and clear if you first take 1 second to read the legend… On September 26 2016 09:14 Nebuchad wrote: These Pew research polls always come up with such numbers, no matter the subject... Can you wrap your mind around the idea that french people answer on average that there is 31% of muslims in France? That's like such an insanely high average answer >< First instinct is to question the methodology... but then I remember Zemmour quoting a number of immigrant children who are under 4 years old that was higher than the total number of infants who are under 4 years old in France, and I'm like yeah maybe Yeah lol, he said there were 5 millions strangers in France PLUS 7 millions strangers who are under 4 years old… while there's overall only 4 millions people who are less than 4 years old in France. Then again this clown barely knows what an immigrant is, so… (Here if you speak French. Poor boy, so lost with definitions… Best part @ 1:10. “What's an immigrant?” “It's an immigrant who comes from abroad!” LOL GENIUS) On September 26 2016 15:17 FiWiFaKi wrote: Apologies, I should have been more careful with my terminology, and didn't mean to offend the First Nations of Canada. By "Native citizen" I was referring to European settlers who've lived in western society for a couple generations or more (or any settlers in Canada that lived that live the Western lifestyle, just so happens they are almost all originally European). Hahaha. Lovely. This kind of “mistake” is fairly telling about your worldview. It's also fascinating to see how immigrants (like yourself apparently) can quickly adopt an anti-immigration stance. Seems like you were good enough, but not others? How convenient… On September 26 2016 15:39 NukeD wrote: I don't want my country to be anything else other than a majorly white. I would tailor immigration politics to fit this agenda. This is not racist is any way, nor is it white supremacist. Its a basic national right for a country to identify itself as a country of primarily whites/blacks/jews/asians/whatever. I absolutely want my country to be mainly white, but this isn't white supremacy. Ooookay. Is this the Orwell Tour today? On September 26 2016 15:46 NukeD wrote: Nah not few centuries. A lot less actually. Here, if you have the time; + Show Spoiler + I don't. I won't watch a 38 minutes video if you don't bother to say at least a few words about what it is. I mean if it's dumb stuff like Eurabia… LOL IT ACTUALLY IS On September 26 2016 15:49 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't think that would make your country racist. If I treat everyone very nicely, but I only choose to make my close friends of a certain group (doesn't have to be ethnic)... I'm not racist. Israel is much the same, Jewish people just want their own space. You couldn't choose a worse example since Israël is a colonial and racist State. And about "They just want their own space" … Too bad there were already people here? + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.thefeministwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/palestine-pic-1.jpg) On September 26 2016 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: To be fair the survey is from 2014, before the migrant crisis. Sweden has added 350,000 muslims since then, Germany over 1.5 million. Yes, whatever the actual numbers are you can add 0.4% in Europe since then. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:14 zatic wrote: So really, you can't come up with a city that has 50% muslims, and the best you can do is a 17k suburb which has 43% foreigners, which makes it hard for me to believe that the Muslim population is higher than 50%. Gotcha. These are all numbers of 2010. They have changed massivly since then. 2nd you say 43% foreigners, you know how many people here have a german passport and are muslims? Seriously, you have no Idea what you are talking about. I am living here every day. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:20 Clonester wrote: These are all numbers of 2010. They have changed massivly since then. 2nd you say 43% foreigners, you know how many people here have a german passport and are muslims? Seriously, you have no Idea what you are talking about. I am living here every day. Then you are a perfect example of the chart posted a few pages back. Perception way off reality. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:03 Plansix wrote: That graph and survey really shows the difference between public feelings about an issue and reality. I find it sort of amazing that people in France believed Muslims made up 31% of their total population. For that to be the case, more than 1 out of every 4 people they ran into on the street would have to be apparent Muslims. I would be very surprised if that was the case. | ||
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:21 zatic wrote: Then you are a perfect example of the chart posted a few pages back. Perception way off reality. No, it is not. That perception might be wrong if you live on some lovely looking landscape where no immigrants ever been, pretty much all of eastern germany. Where the amount of foreigners is 1% but still retards like PEGIDA are walking against "islamisation". But here, it is nor just personal perception. It is the reality. How can you even talk from the far distance to someone seeing this every day? You pick up some numbers in the net, most very outdate or not fitting (foreigners are not the only muslims, as alot have gained the german passport) and say it is as you say. The cities, specially the run down parts, easily overtake the amount of muslim perceptions. Yes, on the low land, there almost none, but not in the citys. Feel free to travel over and watch it yourself. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:22 TheYango wrote: For that to be the case, more than 1 out of every 4 people they ran into on the street would have to be apparent Muslims. I would be very surprised if that was the case. I bet there is a fascinating study to be done on how the frequency of a topic showing up in people’s media feeds influences their perception of other related topics. Like the population of specific groups. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:26 Clonester wrote: No, it is not. That perception might be wrong if you live on some lovely looking landscape where no immigrants ever been, pretty much all of eastern germany. Where the amount of foreigners is 1% but still retards like PEGIDA are walking against "islamisation". But here, it is nor just personal perception. It is the reality. How can you even talk from the far distance to someone seeing this every day? You pick up some numbers in the net, most very outdate or not fitting (foreigners are not the only muslims, as alot have gained the german passport) and say it is as you say. The cities, specially the run down parts, easily overtake the amount of muslim perceptions. Yes, on the low land, there almost none, but not in the citys. Feel free to travel over and watch it yourself. I have likely seen more of Germany than you. I am living in a city with a higher percentage of foreigners that Duisburg, in fact one of the highest in the country. Not that it matters - what matters is reality, not my personal perception (nor your's). And in reality there are no cities in Germany with a Muslim population > 50%. Correcting you in posting fabricated numbers like that was all I meant to do. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:01 Clonester wrote: Still, the amount of acceptions does not matter, as no accepted seekers do not get removed. The amount of yearly removals to total amount of non accepted is arround 2-4%. I am living in Duisburg Hochfeld, Muslim Population: >50%. City of Pforzheim: Foreign backgroung: 50%, 35-40%. Under 3 year olds foreign descent: over 70% These numbers are from 2010. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duisburg#Islamische_Gemeinden Etwa acht Prozent der Duisburger Bürger bekennen sich zum Islam. (Translation: Around 8 percent of the Duisburg citizens declare themselves as belonging to the Islam) I can't say how current or accurate that paragraph is since it isn't actually sourced. This page linked from the English wikipedia page cites 85'000 Turkish immigrants in 2011, which would be around 20% of the population of Duisburg. You could argue whether all of them are actually Muslim, but even if they are, the number is not 50%. The wikipedia article also links to this article about Muslim children at schools, which mentions for the school year of 2011/2012 a total of 17344 Muslim children, 14875 catholic and 13041 protestant for Duisburg itself. I can't get the exact number of non-religious children out of that article, it's somewhere between 9.3% and 32.1% since those are the lowest and highest numbers for the whole region. Assuming for the sake of argument that there are no non-religious pupils, that would still just be 38% Muslim pupils in that school year. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4748 Posts
edit: I dont mean to be shitposting. But really thats essence of the problem. For some it is "only" 38% but for many, it is much too high. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 26 2016 20:04 Liquid`Drone wrote: I'm not really up to date on the thread, just got to this post now, but I just have to quote this post because that picture is fucking beautiful and it should be present on more pages. Thank you. I can believe perception is higher than reality. And why the hell does it say public estimates of Muslim population "%, 2014." Those numbers look like they're from 2010. Which would make more academic sense since it would be ludicrous to compare actual muslim representation in 2010 to public perceptions in 2014. ![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Map_of_the_European_Migrant_Crisis_2015.png) | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:31 Morfildur wrote: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duisburg#Islamische_Gemeinden (Translation: Around 8 percent of the Duisburg citizens declare themselves as belonging to the Islam) I can't say how current or accurate that paragraph is since it isn't actually sourced. This page linked from the English wikipedia page cites 85'000 Turkish immigrants in 2011, which would be around 20% of the population of Duisburg. You could argue whether all of them are actually Muslim, but even if they are, the number is not 50%. The wikipedia article also links to this article about Muslim children at schools, which mentions for the school year of 2011/2012 a total of 17344 Muslim children, 14875 catholic and 13041 protestant for Duisburg itself. I can't get the exact number of non-religious children out of that article, it's somewhere between 9.3% and 32.1% since those are the lowest and highest numbers for the whole region. Assuming for the sake of argument that there are no non-religious pupils, that would still just be 38% Muslim pupils in that school year. I was specificly talking about Hochfeld, the part I live in. As I said "part of cities with population of muslims over 50%". And this is the fact here. Postal code 47053, come over. I can also go out and take pictures for you. The same about Marxloh. The muslim population is not wide spreaded arround the complete nation or even a complete city, it is focussed on some very slim parts where it reaches easy above 50%. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Dan HH
Romania9192 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:22 TheYango wrote: For that to be the case, more than 1 out of every 4 people they ran into on the street would have to be apparent Muslims. I would be very surprised if that was the case. There's only so much 24/7 fearmongering about muslims you can be bombarded with before a confirmation bias shows up | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18258 Posts
On September 26 2016 22:01 Clonester wrote: Still, the amount of acceptions does not matter, as no accepted seekers do not get removed. The amount of yearly removals to total amount of non accepted is arround 2-4%. I am living in Duisburg Hochfeld, Muslim Population: >50%. City of Pforzheim: Foreign backgroung: 50%, 35-40%. Under 3 year olds foreign descent: over 70% These numbers are from 2010. That's not a city. That's a neighbourhood. Duisburg is the city. It has ~19% foreigners. That there are neighbourhoods with a majority is unsurprising. And I guess autochtonous Hochfelders might not feel all that happy about that. However, I will compare it to Bos en Lommer in Amsterdam (49,8% foreigner), which I am more familiar with (in fact, Schilderswijk in The Hague, is a better example. It has about 90% inhabitants of foreign descent, and I assume there are neighbourhoods like this in Germany too). This is seen as a troubled, poor neighbourhood. People who live there tend to have bigger problems than whether their neighbour was born in the country or not. I am assuming Hochfeld is mostly the same. That doesn't stop people from the outside peering in mixing up cause and correlation, though (that neighbourhood is poor because it is filled with foreigners. No. The neighbourhood is bad, which means lower housing prices, which means poor people can afford to live there. Immigrants from non-Western nations tend to be poor. This in turn puts a stigma on the neighbourhood, which causes lower housing prices... etc). As for Pforzheim, I'm going to ask for a source. I cannot find anything about Ausserzahl in German, and the only reference I see for demographics is this: http://www.urbistat.it/AdminStat/en/de/demografia/dati-sintesi/pforzheim,-kreisfreie-stadt/8231/4 which doesn't support your claim at all. | ||
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