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On September 20 2016 00:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 00:46 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 20 2016 00:41 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 00:28 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 19 2016 22:11 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2016 22:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Bomb goes off in NY. Another goes off in NJ. Thankfully nobody is killed. Clinton is losing millennial support. To be fair, getting that age group to vote has been like calling cats for decades. Obama had the secret power to do so, but some could argue that it was using the same tactics some of us mocked Sanders for. The bombs are troubling, but Trump is mostly gloating about them. Which is not a great look at all. If goes into another anti Muslim immigration spree, I don’t think it will help him much. Well not according to this study: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/muslims-acism-america-most-disliked-group-discrimination-anti-mosque-a7311151.htmlMuslims are the more disliked group in America. That is not a good sign in my book considering that I have about the same chance to be killed by lightning as Islamic terrorism. But we are now heading towards the talked over discussion of “Muslims, can they live among us in peace?” Yes and no. It depends on how much of their book do they follow. And you can't rule out people's natural instinct of survival. If one group of people have statistically higher chance of causing harm toward others, then you can't blame others for expressing their distrust toward that group of people since we do live in a western society where freedom of expression is allowed. Can I take the crime rate for any race in the US, show that it was higher than other crime rates for other races and then argue they shouldn’t be allowed to live near me for my own safety? Is that cool?
http://mindyourdecisions.com/blog/2008/10/28/game-theory-and-racism-the-schelling-segregation-model/
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On September 20 2016 00:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 00:56 Plansix wrote:
Just to be clear, if I show that blacks are more likely to commit violent crimes, you think its fine that I advocate that no blacks should be allowed to move into my community or have their kids attend my children’s school? For safety concerns, of course. We just want to be safe. I understand the argument you're making Plansix, but my guess would be that there's a pretty large overlap between people who are fine with this that are also fine with a Muslim ban. You're not going to change anyone's mind this way.
I don’t really expect to change anyone’s mind. I just want some honesty about this line of thinking: judging individual people based on the actions of other members of their demographic, sometimes from other nations. If people want to believe that and that they cannot live beside Muslims or blacks because they are scary, dangerous people, they are entitled to that opinion. I do not share it and have expressed as much. But I’m not going to call them names because they hold that view.
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On September 20 2016 00:46 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 00:41 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 00:28 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 19 2016 22:11 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2016 22:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Bomb goes off in NY. Another goes off in NJ. Thankfully nobody is killed. Clinton is losing millennial support. To be fair, getting that age group to vote has been like calling cats for decades. Obama had the secret power to do so, but some could argue that it was using the same tactics some of us mocked Sanders for. The bombs are troubling, but Trump is mostly gloating about them. Which is not a great look at all. If goes into another anti Muslim immigration spree, I don’t think it will help him much. Well not according to this study: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/muslims-acism-america-most-disliked-group-discrimination-anti-mosque-a7311151.htmlMuslims are the more disliked group in America. That is not a good sign in my book considering that I have about the same chance to be killed by lightning as Islamic terrorism. But we are now heading towards the talked over discussion of “Muslims, can they live among us in peace?” Yes and no. It depends on how much of their book do they follow. And you can't rule out people's natural instinct of survival. If one group of people have statistically higher chance of causing harm toward others, then you can't blame others for expressing their distrust toward that group of people since we do live in a western society where freedom of expression is allowed.
Then start blaming your cops or your own fellow countrymen in general, because you certainly don't need ISIS' help to massively kill each other...
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On September 20 2016 00:56 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 00:52 Rebs wrote:On September 20 2016 00:46 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 20 2016 00:41 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 00:28 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 19 2016 22:11 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2016 22:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Bomb goes off in NY. Another goes off in NJ. Thankfully nobody is killed. Clinton is losing millennial support. To be fair, getting that age group to vote has been like calling cats for decades. Obama had the secret power to do so, but some could argue that it was using the same tactics some of us mocked Sanders for. The bombs are troubling, but Drumpf is mostly gloating about them. Which is not a great look at all. If goes into another anti Muslim immigration spree, I don’t think it will help him much. Well not according to this study: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/muslims-acism-america-most-disliked-group-discrimination-anti-mosque-a7311151.htmlMuslims are the more disliked group in America. That is not a good sign in my book considering that I have about the same chance to be killed by lightning as Islamic terrorism. But we are now heading towards the talked over discussion of “Muslims, can they live among us in peace?” Yes and no. It depends on how much of their book do they follow. And you can't rule out people's natural instinct of survival. If one group of people have statistically higher chance of causing harm toward others, then you can't blame others for expressing their distrust toward that group of people since we do live in a western society where freedom of expression is allowed. Again with the book shit, the cluelessness is real, its also why you will never solve this problem. Statistically speaking American Muslims have a lower chance of causing harm to the average american than cops and whacko white dudes. Cops have plenty of distrust granted, but no one seems to have a problem with white dudes. There won't be any problems as long as the border control have a strict set of standard to abide by.
What is your idea of a strict standard?
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Statistically, as a white, upper-middle class man, I'm most likely to be harmed by other white people who either A) are robbing me or B) disagree with my politics. Soooo.... 
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On September 20 2016 00:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 00:56 Plansix wrote:
Just to be clear, if I show that blacks are more likely to commit violent crimes, you think its fine that I advocate that no blacks should be allowed to move into my community or have their kids attend my children’s school? For safety concerns, of course. We just want to be safe. I understand the argument you're making Plansix, but my guess would be that there's a pretty large overlap between people who are fine with this that are also fine with a Muslim ban. You're not going to change anyone's mind this way. If someone views segregation and discrimination as reasonable when done for safety and the good of society, they're going to apply that to all contexts.
How many people think that racial discrimination of any kind, in any context, is never warranted?
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On September 20 2016 01:11 xDaunt wrote:
How many people think that racial discrimination of any kind, in any context, is never warranted?
I would expect very few, and I would not be one of them.
However, I would distinguish between discrimination as done by individual persons or entities and done as policy by the government. I accept the former (and do it consciously and unconsciously myself), but I think the latter is potentially dangerous due to how it can legitimize actions by actually racist people. Discriminatory policy that is pure in its intention has a hard time staying pure in implementation, which is my main problem with the idea of a Muslim ban. I do recognize the perceived benefits of such a policy, and would not be so absurdly reductive as to call people who support it racists (which is completely unproductive to the conversation).
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On September 20 2016 01:01 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 00:48 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 00:46 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 20 2016 00:41 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 00:28 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 19 2016 22:11 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2016 22:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Bomb goes off in NY. Another goes off in NJ. Thankfully nobody is killed. Clinton is losing millennial support. To be fair, getting that age group to vote has been like calling cats for decades. Obama had the secret power to do so, but some could argue that it was using the same tactics some of us mocked Sanders for. The bombs are troubling, but Trump is mostly gloating about them. Which is not a great look at all. If goes into another anti Muslim immigration spree, I don’t think it will help him much. Well not according to this study: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/muslims-acism-america-most-disliked-group-discrimination-anti-mosque-a7311151.htmlMuslims are the more disliked group in America. That is not a good sign in my book considering that I have about the same chance to be killed by lightning as Islamic terrorism. But we are now heading towards the talked over discussion of “Muslims, can they live among us in peace?” Yes and no. It depends on how much of their book do they follow. And you can't rule out people's natural instinct of survival. If one group of people have statistically higher chance of causing harm toward others, then you can't blame others for expressing their distrust toward that group of people since we do live in a western society where freedom of expression is allowed. Can I take the crime rate for any race in the US, show that it was higher than other crime rates for other races and then argue they shouldn’t be allowed to live near me for my own safety? Is that cool? http://mindyourdecisions.com/blog/2008/10/28/game-theory-and-racism-the-schelling-segregation-model/
This article is about voluntarily being part of a community of their own demographic, not preventing people of other demographic from moving into that community.
On September 20 2016 01:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 01:11 xDaunt wrote:
How many people think that racial discrimination of any kind, in any context, is never warranted? I would expect very few, and I would not be one of them.
Even I don't believe that it is never warranted. But I demand a much stronger case that is far more specific than any that are currently presented about the Middle East. If someone wants to advocate stepping on screening from a specific area due to solid data, I'm listening.
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On September 20 2016 01:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 01:11 xDaunt wrote:
How many people think that racial discrimination of any kind, in any context, is never warranted? I would expect very few, and I would not be one of them.
And let's just exclude affirmative action or any of the "positive" forms of racial discrimination. Really what we're talking about is singling out a race/group for lesser treatment. Does that change your answer?
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On September 20 2016 01:16 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 01:13 TheYango wrote:On September 20 2016 01:11 xDaunt wrote:
How many people think that racial discrimination of any kind, in any context, is never warranted? I would expect very few, and I would not be one of them. And let's just exclude affirmative action or any of the "positive" forms of racial discrimination. Really what we're talking about is singling out a race/group for lesser treatment. Does that change your answer?
I dont think he had positive discrimination in mind anyway.
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On September 20 2016 01:16 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 01:13 TheYango wrote:On September 20 2016 01:11 xDaunt wrote:
How many people think that racial discrimination of any kind, in any context, is never warranted? I would expect very few, and I would not be one of them. And let's just exclude affirmative action or any of the "positive" forms of racial discrimination. Really what we're talking about is singling out a race/group for lesser treatment. Does that change your answer?
No, it doesn't.
Most people have a certain level of comfort with other races, but even the most open-minded people are going to draw the line somewhere, consciously or subconsciously. I don't think it's wrong to say that people are naturally more comfortable with people who seem more similar to them, and it takes some amount of conscious effort to open up to people outside that group.
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Chris Christie Knew About Bridge Lane Closings as They Happened, Prosecutors Say
Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey knew that his close associates were involved in a plan to shut down lanes leading to the George Washington Bridge as it was happening and that the closings were intended to punish a local mayor for declining to support him, prosecutors said on Monday.
It was the first time Mr. Christie, a Republican, has been accused of knowing about the scheme as it unfolded.
The prosecutors made the assertion during opening statements in the trial of two former Christie administration officials charged with closing the lanes in 2013 and then covering it up.
Mr. Christie has insisted that he had no knowledge of the plot to close the lanes, and said that he did not recall being told about the closings while they were happening.
Defense lawyers have also said that Mr. Christie knew. But the statement on Monday was striking in that it was prosecutors confirming that assertion.
Prosecutors from the United States attorney’s office said that two of the alleged co-conspirators in the case, David Wildstein and Bill Baroni, had bragged to the governor about the lane closings, and that they had been done to “mess” with the mayor of Fort Lee because he had declined entreaties to endorse the governor’s re-election.
Source
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On September 20 2016 01:22 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +Chris Christie Knew About Bridge Lane Closings as They Happened, Prosecutors Say
Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey knew that his close associates were involved in a plan to shut down lanes leading to the George Washington Bridge as it was happening and that the closings were intended to punish a local mayor for declining to support him, prosecutors said on Monday.
It was the first time Mr. Christie, a Republican, has been accused of knowing about the scheme as it unfolded.
The prosecutors made the assertion during opening statements in the trial of two former Christie administration officials charged with closing the lanes in 2013 and then covering it up.
Mr. Christie has insisted that he had no knowledge of the plot to close the lanes, and said that he did not recall being told about the closings while they were happening.
Defense lawyers have also said that Mr. Christie knew. But the statement on Monday was striking in that it was prosecutors confirming that assertion.
Prosecutors from the United States attorney’s office said that two of the alleged co-conspirators in the case, David Wildstein and Bill Baroni, had bragged to the governor about the lane closings, and that they had been done to “mess” with the mayor of Fort Lee because he had declined entreaties to endorse the governor’s re-election. Source
I'm not seeing much room for this to hurt Trump. Am I wrong?
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Implying that it would hurt Trump would imply that people still care about Chris Christie.
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On September 20 2016 01:11 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 00:58 TheYango wrote:On September 20 2016 00:56 Plansix wrote:
Just to be clear, if I show that blacks are more likely to commit violent crimes, you think its fine that I advocate that no blacks should be allowed to move into my community or have their kids attend my children’s school? For safety concerns, of course. We just want to be safe. I understand the argument you're making Plansix, but my guess would be that there's a pretty large overlap between people who are fine with this that are also fine with a Muslim ban. You're not going to change anyone's mind this way. If someone views segregation and discrimination as reasonable when done for safety and the good of society, they're going to apply that to all contexts. How many people think that racial discrimination of any kind, in any context, is never warranted?
I think it is never warranted. Doesn't mean I might not unconsciously do it. But I find it morally wrong.
Now, are there what-if scenarios where I might condone racial discrimination? Yes. I just don't believe those occur in real life. They haven't so far throughout history and I see no reason to assume they will in the future.
EDIT: for the record, I think affirmative action is also wrong.
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On September 20 2016 01:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 00:58 TheYango wrote:On September 20 2016 00:56 Plansix wrote:
Just to be clear, if I show that blacks are more likely to commit violent crimes, you think its fine that I advocate that no blacks should be allowed to move into my community or have their kids attend my children’s school? For safety concerns, of course. We just want to be safe. I understand the argument you're making Plansix, but my guess would be that there's a pretty large overlap between people who are fine with this that are also fine with a Muslim ban. You're not going to change anyone's mind this way. I don’t really expect to change anyone’s mind. I just want some honesty about this line of thinking: judging individual people based on the actions of other members of their demographic, sometimes from other nations. If people want to believe that and that they cannot live beside Muslims or blacks because they are scary, dangerous people, they are entitled to that opinion. I do not share it and have expressed as much. But I’m not going to call them names because they hold that view.
We can't let them politically Correct people take our honesty away man.
Honesty is all we have in a free society.
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On September 20 2016 01:10 farvacola wrote:Statistically, as a white, upper-middle class man, I'm most likely to be harmed by other white people who either A) are robbing me or B) disagree with my politics. Soooo....
Well, you're actually most likely to be harmed by a romantic partner. Good luck keeping them from living near you.
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On September 20 2016 01:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 01:01 Acrofales wrote:On September 20 2016 00:48 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 00:46 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 20 2016 00:41 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 00:28 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 19 2016 22:11 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2016 22:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Bomb goes off in NY. Another goes off in NJ. Thankfully nobody is killed. Clinton is losing millennial support. To be fair, getting that age group to vote has been like calling cats for decades. Obama had the secret power to do so, but some could argue that it was using the same tactics some of us mocked Sanders for. The bombs are troubling, but Trump is mostly gloating about them. Which is not a great look at all. If goes into another anti Muslim immigration spree, I don’t think it will help him much. Well not according to this study: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/muslims-acism-america-most-disliked-group-discrimination-anti-mosque-a7311151.htmlMuslims are the more disliked group in America. That is not a good sign in my book considering that I have about the same chance to be killed by lightning as Islamic terrorism. But we are now heading towards the talked over discussion of “Muslims, can they live among us in peace?” Yes and no. It depends on how much of their book do they follow. And you can't rule out people's natural instinct of survival. If one group of people have statistically higher chance of causing harm toward others, then you can't blame others for expressing their distrust toward that group of people since we do live in a western society where freedom of expression is allowed. Can I take the crime rate for any race in the US, show that it was higher than other crime rates for other races and then argue they shouldn’t be allowed to live near me for my own safety? Is that cool? http://mindyourdecisions.com/blog/2008/10/28/game-theory-and-racism-the-schelling-segregation-model/ This article is about voluntarily being part of a community of their own demographic, not preventing people of other demographic from moving into that community.
I know. But in practice there isn't really much difference. Although ethically they are of course, quite different stances to take.
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On September 20 2016 01:29 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 01:02 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 00:58 TheYango wrote:On September 20 2016 00:56 Plansix wrote:
Just to be clear, if I show that blacks are more likely to commit violent crimes, you think its fine that I advocate that no blacks should be allowed to move into my community or have their kids attend my children’s school? For safety concerns, of course. We just want to be safe. I understand the argument you're making Plansix, but my guess would be that there's a pretty large overlap between people who are fine with this that are also fine with a Muslim ban. You're not going to change anyone's mind this way. I don’t really expect to change anyone’s mind. I just want some honesty about this line of thinking: judging individual people based on the actions of other members of their demographic, sometimes from other nations. If people want to believe that and that they cannot live beside Muslims or blacks because they are scary, dangerous people, they are entitled to that opinion. I do not share it and have expressed as much. But I’m not going to call them names because they hold that view. We can't let them politically Correct people take our honesty away man. Honesty is all we have in a free society.
Pretty sure we have a lot more than that. And people are mostly all about honesty until it is directed at them, then they get upset and they are being oppressed for their views.
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On September 20 2016 01:32 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 01:14 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 01:01 Acrofales wrote:On September 20 2016 00:48 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 00:46 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 20 2016 00:41 Plansix wrote:On September 20 2016 00:28 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 19 2016 22:11 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2016 22:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Bomb goes off in NY. Another goes off in NJ. Thankfully nobody is killed. Clinton is losing millennial support. To be fair, getting that age group to vote has been like calling cats for decades. Obama had the secret power to do so, but some could argue that it was using the same tactics some of us mocked Sanders for. The bombs are troubling, but Trump is mostly gloating about them. Which is not a great look at all. If goes into another anti Muslim immigration spree, I don’t think it will help him much. Well not according to this study: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/muslims-acism-america-most-disliked-group-discrimination-anti-mosque-a7311151.htmlMuslims are the more disliked group in America. That is not a good sign in my book considering that I have about the same chance to be killed by lightning as Islamic terrorism. But we are now heading towards the talked over discussion of “Muslims, can they live among us in peace?” Yes and no. It depends on how much of their book do they follow. And you can't rule out people's natural instinct of survival. If one group of people have statistically higher chance of causing harm toward others, then you can't blame others for expressing their distrust toward that group of people since we do live in a western society where freedom of expression is allowed. Can I take the crime rate for any race in the US, show that it was higher than other crime rates for other races and then argue they shouldn’t be allowed to live near me for my own safety? Is that cool? http://mindyourdecisions.com/blog/2008/10/28/game-theory-and-racism-the-schelling-segregation-model/ This article is about voluntarily being part of a community of their own demographic, not preventing people of other demographic from moving into that community. I know. But in practice there isn't really much difference. Although ethically they are of course, quite different stances to take.
I think there is a huge difference, in both thought process and execution. The active of willing being a part of a community focused on your own culture is a celebration of that culture. The act of keeping others out is a condemnation of their culture and a fear of it's influence on yours. One is healthy, the other is not at all.
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EPT
