In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
If we want a market for healthcare (ostensibly to foster innovation) we'll keep bumping into pricing "scandals," especially as information becomes easier to access. What on earth determines the "right price" for a procedure? The cost that goes into making it? No way, the market won't function then. A price that reduces lifetime costs by 50% compared to going without the procedure or drug? Who knows? People were up in arms about the Hep C drugs, but those were actually a pretty realistic pricepoint for the potential future costs to the patients of going without or using alternative therapies that had a vastly lower chance of success. The main problem was insurers being unable to absorb costs and the lack of "installment plan" ways to pay for the drugs.
For an extreme example, if I developed an injection that cured diabetes permanently, what the hell should that be priced at? What if it cures diabetes in 50% of people permanently, but I can't know before I give it?
It's also hard to design appropriate intellectual property laws in this market where people's lives literally depend on the intellectual property. Okay, Disney, you own Mickey Mouse, but if we needed 100,000 Mickey Mouse movies to prevent deaths around the country I would hope we would say other people can start producing them.
North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory (R) polled nine points behind Democratic challenger Roy Cooper in a Monmouth poll of the state's gubernatorial election.
Cooper leads McCrory 52-43, with Libertarian candidate Lon Cecil polling at 3 percent.
McCrory has gained national attention for signing HB2, which prevents cities and counties from passing their own anti-discrimination rules and barred individuals from the right to sue their workplace for any kind of discrimination.
Among those polled, 55 percent disapproved of HB2 and another 70 percent thought the legislation gave North Carolina a bad reputation nationally.
Monmouth had not previously polled the North Carolina governor's election, but a NBC/WSJ/Marist poll from earlier this month showed Cooper ahead by seven percent, 51-44.
The Monmouth University poll was conducted Aug. 20-23 among 401 likely North Carolina voters, and has a margin of error of plus or minus 4.9 percent.
TPM's PollTracker Average for the North Carolina gubernatorial election shows Cooper leading McCrory, 51.7 to 43.3.
On August 25 2016 06:03 Sermokala wrote: The sick shit is that the actual medicine thats being injected is really cheap its that the company is shitty for charging $200 or more for the spring loaded injector. theres another company thats selling it for cheaper but not that much.
If a free market was truely free a company should come up to undercut the profits for something like this. the government isn't the only thing keeping the market from being free.
The free market does not work for healthcare (including medicine) as has been explained time and time again. Free market certainly has its place but its not something you can just use everywhere and expect it to work.
Free market completely fits in to everything. The problem people have is thinking free market is something you *do* as opposed to things that *happen*.
People will only trade resources with other people within agreed upon values and volumes so long as both sides are willing to do it. Even if one side decides to spike the prices to the point where only a very small number of people would ever get it--its still the "free market" working.
The issue with healthcare as a private as opposed to a public service is not the free market, its that healthcare is one of the most expensive things to actually run from a research perspective.
You have to invent shit, to be used on people, that might kill them, but you're not allowed to test your products on people, so you just have to go through a googleplex of hoops to test things that you can never verify won't kill people until you release it to the market (and god help you if it starts killing people since the company will put blame on you and drop you like a sack of potatoes--also while sacking you at the same time). In the end you spend 10 million dollars to make something that costs .01 cents to make and are expected by your stock holders to make back the 10 million.
Except you're just one of 2,000 research projects being done at a time, each one costing 10-20 million dollars and since you're the one who finished first your cure to whatever that costs .01 cents to make has to pay off the costs of the all the other failed/unfinished projects.
Then your told that the other option is to not fund your projects at all and just have everyone die from something that would have cost .01 cents to make--except it will never actually be .01 cents to take.
The advantage of a public market is that researchers, developers, and everyone else operates at a loss making jack shit for decades at a time for little to no reknown for the good of all. And if that researcher wants to have a family and wants to get a house or car, sure he might get swayed to move to private sector job that pays more--oh wait. Suddenly you have medicine that costs $2,000 a shot again.
FUCK!
The issue is that so long as there are people willing to pay a price, goods will adjust to that willingness. And unless governments make it illegal to run your business, there will be people poaching and buying up researchers and research projects to corner whatever market you thought was safe from price gouging.
A lot of the medical research is also run at an efficiency that put the laziest government workers to shame.
Problem is that big pharma doesn't do research from scratch, they invest in a smaller companies to do research for them, then they buy up the promising ones at significantly lower amount than it worth to them and refine them and push them from FDA because they have the expertise for all the trials and government regulations and stuff that small companies don't.
What end up is a large number of small research companies that has decent chunk of change in investment but not too good of an odd of success and not a lot of motivation to do so, end up in being party companies more or less.
I have relative that in 10 years worked in 4 small pharma research companies, all headed by same group of people. They take an idea, ask for funding, but after they get it they are doing the bare minimum that won't get them sued, free meal everyday, free alcohol in full stock, a lot of people work 3 days a week and company wine tasting every month. After 3 years with not much to show for it, investor gets fed up, stops funding, company close shop, then 2 month later they take another idea and start the cycle again.
There are definitely many really amazing companies that does wonderful things, but there are also a lot more free loaders taking advantage of the shotgun investment.
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote: Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops...
How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
Fair enough, but once again, what actual, specific changes do you think need to happen?
We can start with people claiming they care about the constitution, people's rights, and justice demanding that the police stop protecting the criminals among them.
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general?
On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote: Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops...
How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general?
Not related: did I use my " 's " correctly?
Leaving it blank probably wouldn't change much, as people would just make presumptions based on their prejudices (you can usually tell from the language describing folks too). Can't remember ever hearing about a white guy who calls the cops for help only to be shot by them though. My point is that we should all be outraged that the cops would try to protect incompetent and/or criminal cops.
People keep getting lost in thinking about the way people present their argument, just stop and think for a moment how seemingly average people react to the wrongful notion that their 1st amendment is being threatened on a forum, then imagine that not only are the protesters living under crushing poverty (the kind people who complain on forums rarely know) they are also ACTUALLY having their constitutional rights denied
Instead of everyone flipping out about millions of Americans being abused and living under the kind of oppression that comes from having your 4th amendment (among others) rights crapped on, people are busy pondering about better approaches to getting white people to care and not hurt their feelings.
I know most people here don't appreciate just how twisted and appalling that is, but I'm hoping one day it sinks in.
I know you don't understand it and prefer to play the victim, but it's not that "white people" don't care or aren't outraged. It's that people disagree with you on the underlying cause of the shootings largely affecting the african-american community. You think it is due to racism and only racism, whereas others argue that racism is only part of the reason but that a much more important reason is due to socioeconomic factors which lead to increased crime which again lead to officers being more "on edge". I've previously linked you multiple studies showing that the most important predictors of police shootings are NOT race of victim (or cop), but socioeconomics and geographical area. I can only hope one day it'll sink in that people aren't actually against solving the issues, but that they want to solve the actual issues.
On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote: Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops...
How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote: Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops...
How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general?
Not related: did I use my " 's " correctly?
Leaving it blank probably wouldn't change much, as people would just make presumptions based on their prejudices (you can usually tell from the language describing folks too). Can't remember ever hearing about a white guy who calls the cops for help only to be shot by them though. My point is that we should all be outraged that the cops would try to protect incompetent and/or criminal cops.
People keep getting lost in thinking about the way people present their argument, just stop and think for a moment how seemingly average people react to the wrongful notion that their 1st amendment is being threatened on a forum, then imagine that not only are the protesters living under crushing poverty (the kind people who complain on forums rarely know) they are also ACTUALLY having their constitutional rights denied
Instead of everyone flipping out about millions of Americans being abused and living under the kind of oppression that comes from having your 4th amendment (among others) rights crapped on, people are busy pondering about better approaches to getting white people to care and not hurt their feelings.
I know most people here don't appreciate just how twisted and appalling that is, but I'm hoping one day it sinks in.
I fully appreciate how twisted and appalling that is, and that doesn't only go for police shootings but all good ol' american shootings in general. But then, I live in a country where the police of the entire nation (protecting 80+ million) fires as many rounds in a year as the average american police department in a week. I don't see you ever getting rid of this, my condolences.
On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote: Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops...
How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
On August 25 2016 10:43 TheTenthDoc wrote: If we want a market for healthcare (ostensibly to foster innovation) we'll keep bumping into pricing "scandals," especially as information becomes easier to access. What on earth determines the "right price" for a procedure? The cost that goes into making it? No way, the market won't function then. A price that reduces lifetime costs by 50% compared to going without the procedure or drug? Who knows? People were up in arms about the Hep C drugs, but those were actually a pretty realistic pricepoint for the potential future costs to the patients of going without or using alternative therapies that had a vastly lower chance of success. The main problem was insurers being unable to absorb costs and the lack of "installment plan" ways to pay for the drugs.
For an extreme example, if I developed an injection that cured diabetes permanently, what the hell should that be priced at? What if it cures diabetes in 50% of people permanently, but I can't know before I give it?
It's also hard to design appropriate intellectual property laws in this market where people's lives literally depend on the intellectual property. Okay, Disney, you own Mickey Mouse, but if we needed 100,000 Mickey Mouse movies to prevent deaths around the country I would hope we would say other people can start producing them.
North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory (R) polled nine points behind Democratic challenger Roy Cooper in a Monmouth poll of the state's gubernatorial election.
Cooper leads McCrory 52-43, with Libertarian candidate Lon Cecil polling at 3 percent.
McCrory has gained national attention for signing HB2, which prevents cities and counties from passing their own anti-discrimination rules and barred individuals from the right to sue their workplace for any kind of discrimination.
Among those polled, 55 percent disapproved of HB2 and another 70 percent thought the legislation gave North Carolina a bad reputation nationally.
Monmouth had not previously polled the North Carolina governor's election, but a NBC/WSJ/Marist poll from earlier this month showed Cooper ahead by seven percent, 51-44.
The Monmouth University poll was conducted Aug. 20-23 among 401 likely North Carolina voters, and has a margin of error of plus or minus 4.9 percent.
TPM's PollTracker Average for the North Carolina gubernatorial election shows Cooper leading McCrory, 51.7 to 43.3.
On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote: Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops...
How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general?
On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote: Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops...
How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
On August 25 2016 19:09 Ghostcom wrote: I know you don't understand it and prefer to play the victim, but it's not that "white people" don't care or aren't outraged. It's that people disagree with you on the underlying cause of the shootings largely affecting the african-american community. You think it is due to racism and only racism, whereas others argue that racism is only part of the reason but that a much more important reason is due to socioeconomic factors which lead to increased crime which again lead to officers being more "on edge". I've previously linked you multiple studies showing that the most important predictors of police shootings are NOT race of victim (or cop), but socioeconomics and geographical area. I can only hope one day it'll sink in that people aren't actually against solving the issues, but that they want to solve the actual issues.
Whether or not you think GH's argument about the underlying cause is correct, his conclusion that the police should be held accountable when they act negligently or criminally is spot on. Most departments don't even collect good data, so it's difficult to hold them accountable as a whole, and officers will go to great lengths to cover up for their colleagues. We hear pretty regularly about cases where they attempt to destroy video footage, or their body cams mysteriously malfunction. The bad cops wouldn't be able to get away with this if "good" cops didn't allow it to happen.
EPT
