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United States43532 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:15 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 01:11 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 01:05 hunts wrote:On August 26 2016 01:02 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 00:50 hunts wrote:On August 25 2016 18:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 25 2016 17:41 schaf wrote:On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops... How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-man-shot-cops-calling-report-robbery-article-1.2762748 As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general? Not related: did I use my " 's " correctly? Leaving it blank probably wouldn't change much, as people would just make presumptions based on their prejudices (you can usually tell from the language describing folks too). Can't remember ever hearing about a white guy who calls the cops for help only to be shot by them though. My point is that we should all be outraged that the cops would try to protect incompetent and/or criminal cops. People keep getting lost in thinking about the way people present their argument, just stop and think for a moment how seemingly average people react to the wrongful notion that their 1st amendment is being threatened on a forum, then imagine that not only are the protesters living under crushing poverty (the kind people who complain on forums rarely know) they are also ACTUALLY having their constitutional rights denied Instead of everyone flipping out about millions of Americans being abused and living under the kind of oppression that comes from having your 4th amendment (among others) rights crapped on, people are busy pondering about better approaches to getting white people to care and not hurt their feelings. I know most people here don't appreciate just how twisted and appalling that is, but I'm hoping one day it sinks in. Just wondering, but you are aware that more white people are killed by cops than black people are, and that more black people are killed by other black (non police) people, than they are by cops, right? Why aren't those being protested? I'm all for cops not shooting innocent people, or being able to abuse their power to act like dicks. But in this case, the guy came out with a gun. Yes, he (most likely) legally owned it, and yes it was his own house. But given how many cops have been killed recently, and mostly by black people too, do you not think they would have reason to be alarmed at a black person with a gun coming at them? Especially given that not long ago a black person made a call claiming his car was being robbed, only to ambush and shoot the responding officer? Do you not think that perhaps all of the blacklives matter people calling for police blood and the killing of cops, would make it more likely that a black person with a gun is seen as a threat by the police? Your numbers have been debunked a million times before. Raw numbers ("more whites killed than blacks") don't mean anything because, proportionally, black people are arrested, shot, pulled over, convicted, and sentenced to jail time far, far, far more often than they should be. "black on black crime" is also a lazy argument because anyone of any race is overwhelmingly likely to be killed by a person of their own race; "white on white" crime numbers are the same as "black on black" crime numbers. And no, there is no justification for the cops shooting a man that is legally armed in his own home. If you have the legal authority to execute someone in certain situations, your actions should be held to incredibly high standards. You need to be better at your job under pressure. If he was in his own home, how did the cops that were outside shoot him? He was standing in his garage and opened the garage door. This 1) in his home and 2) even if you want to argue useless semantics, still on his property. It speaks volumes that instead of addressing the numerous points that I debunked, you have to ask a totally irrelevant question. I also think it's sad that, predictably, the NRA won't say shit about defending this man's right to own and handle a gun on his property against tyrannical government when they will routinely do that for any white man that gets accidentally shot by a cop while using a gun. Meh. Normally I would be outraged by this, because cops really need to not be so trigger happy, and need to be held accountable when they are. But with all of the BLM spouting about killing white people and killing cops, and the actual cases of blacks calling the cops and reporting a false crime just to ambush and shoot the cops, I think this guy was just collateral damage caused by the BLM's racist rhetoric which is putting cops in danger, and will make them much more defensive around black people.
Whatever it takes for you to find a way to blame someone in that sweet spot of both "black" and "did not pull the trigger" I guess.
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On August 26 2016 01:15 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 01:11 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 01:05 hunts wrote:On August 26 2016 01:02 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 00:50 hunts wrote:On August 25 2016 18:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 25 2016 17:41 schaf wrote:On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops... How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-man-shot-cops-calling-report-robbery-article-1.2762748 As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general? Not related: did I use my " 's " correctly? Leaving it blank probably wouldn't change much, as people would just make presumptions based on their prejudices (you can usually tell from the language describing folks too). Can't remember ever hearing about a white guy who calls the cops for help only to be shot by them though. My point is that we should all be outraged that the cops would try to protect incompetent and/or criminal cops. People keep getting lost in thinking about the way people present their argument, just stop and think for a moment how seemingly average people react to the wrongful notion that their 1st amendment is being threatened on a forum, then imagine that not only are the protesters living under crushing poverty (the kind people who complain on forums rarely know) they are also ACTUALLY having their constitutional rights denied Instead of everyone flipping out about millions of Americans being abused and living under the kind of oppression that comes from having your 4th amendment (among others) rights crapped on, people are busy pondering about better approaches to getting white people to care and not hurt their feelings. I know most people here don't appreciate just how twisted and appalling that is, but I'm hoping one day it sinks in. Just wondering, but you are aware that more white people are killed by cops than black people are, and that more black people are killed by other black (non police) people, than they are by cops, right? Why aren't those being protested? I'm all for cops not shooting innocent people, or being able to abuse their power to act like dicks. But in this case, the guy came out with a gun. Yes, he (most likely) legally owned it, and yes it was his own house. But given how many cops have been killed recently, and mostly by black people too, do you not think they would have reason to be alarmed at a black person with a gun coming at them? Especially given that not long ago a black person made a call claiming his car was being robbed, only to ambush and shoot the responding officer? Do you not think that perhaps all of the blacklives matter people calling for police blood and the killing of cops, would make it more likely that a black person with a gun is seen as a threat by the police? Your numbers have been debunked a million times before. Raw numbers ("more whites killed than blacks") don't mean anything because, proportionally, black people are arrested, shot, pulled over, convicted, and sentenced to jail time far, far, far more often than they should be. "black on black crime" is also a lazy argument because anyone of any race is overwhelmingly likely to be killed by a person of their own race; "white on white" crime numbers are the same as "black on black" crime numbers. And no, there is no justification for the cops shooting a man that is legally armed in his own home. If you have the legal authority to execute someone in certain situations, your actions should be held to incredibly high standards. You need to be better at your job under pressure. If he was in his own home, how did the cops that were outside shoot him? He was standing in his garage and opened the garage door. This 1) in his home and 2) even if you want to argue useless semantics, still on his property. It speaks volumes that instead of addressing the numerous points that I debunked, you have to ask a totally irrelevant question. I also think it's sad that, predictably, the NRA won't say shit about defending this man's right to own and handle a gun on his property against tyrannical government when they will routinely do that for any white man that gets accidentally shot by a cop while using a gun. Meh. Normally I would be outraged by this, because cops really need to not be so trigger happy, and need to be held accountable when they are. But with all of the BLM spouting about killing white people and killing cops, and the actual cases of blacks calling the cops and reporting a false crime just to ambush and shoot the cops, I think this guy was just collateral damage caused by the BLM's racist rhetoric which is putting cops in danger, and will make them much more defensive around black people.
This is untrue. You can’t even make the argument that the “majority” or a “statistically significant number” of BLM protesters are calling for the murder of white people and police. Your argument has no value if this is its basis.
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So other people's behavior somehow makes this ok?
Rofl dude
At best, your arguing for collective punishment 
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On August 25 2016 23:49 KwarK wrote:
I find it amusing that not one of the posters here correctly spelled Farage. To remind again anyone who doesn't know who Farage is, he's not a politician in the UK, he's someone who would like to be a politician but doesn't have the votes and always loses in the general election. The only institution willing to give him power is the European Parliament, where he rarely shows up and when he does he bitches about how bad it is. He won't work with anyone and therefore can't do anything in the EU Parliament so he takes his paycheck and goes home to whine about how bad the system is to a British population who know better than to even give him a seat in their Parliament.
Truly a role model for Trump supporters.
So by saying he's not a politician in the UK, you mean he's a politician in the UK, freely elected to a position in the European parliament. He also headed a UK political party.
The whole doesn't show up/won't work with anyone is the same dishonesty we saw in US elections when someone challenges the established order. Yeah, you seek a diminishing of power, with it's related effects on political favors and pork. It doesn't win you friends. Angelic White Crusader with the perfect reform package would get the same treatment ... doesn't work with anyone, whines about how bad the system is. It sounds like he's doing a terrific job, might even be doing exactly what he was sent there to do. If Europe was committed to reforms in its laws and votes were close returning some legal autonomy when it matters (pick your issue), I'd expect him to show up frequently, certainly. The case being the opposite, I'd also expect him to do an opposition speech every now and then (to a half empty hall from the looks of things in video anyways) even though it falls on deaf ears.
Frankly it looks like a resume enhancer. The left/center hates him, as they ought, for the partisan reasons they cite every time, awesome. Politically, it appears to be a veiled attack on the voting base that dared send anybody close to him. You dummies ought to believe what EP is doing is totally innocuous, y'all ought to be at home with all compromises made to pass laws, and you ought to be mad at him for not showing up this much. I'm doing some broad generalizing between US/UK since you did Farage/Trump. The duty of an opposition is to oppose.
+ Show Spoiler +It is a very strange thing lately with the job performance path of criticism. I talk with people that oppose everything the candidate stands for, all his methods and speeches, can't even find themselves compromising one inch on big issues. Pardon me if I don't let you choose the type of candidate I can elect that shows no hope of winning your vote should he dramatically change his behavior. We value very different things; and I marvel at how often I'm told x, y, and z ought to be lese-majeste for me too.
Trump's an extreme example and I'm more referring to the Cruz/Sessions/Lee/Sasse line. Don't expect me to defend more than half of what Trump's said and done.
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On August 26 2016 01:15 hunts wrote:
Meh.
Normally I would be outraged by this, because cops really need to not be so trigger happy, and need to be held accountable when they are. But with all of the BLM spouting about killing white people and killing cops, and the actual cases of blacks calling the cops and reporting a false crime just to ambush and shoot the cops, I think this guy was just collateral damage caused by the BLM's racist rhetoric which is putting cops in danger, and will make them much more defensive around black people.
None of that excuses the fact that the system is going to defend the cop responsible for the shooting and he's probably going to get off scott-free.
I'm willing to accept the fact that to some extent, cops have to be ready to use deadly force and are on edge due to the current political climate. But if you shot an innocent man, you fucked up. It might have been an accident, but you still fucked up. And in any other profession where peoples' lives are in your hands, it being an accident is simply not a good enough excuse for you to not be held accountable for the consequences of your mistakes. But with cops, the system bends over backward to protect people when they make mistakes.
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United States43532 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:21 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2016 23:49 KwarK wrote:
I find it amusing that not one of the posters here correctly spelled Farage. To remind again anyone who doesn't know who Farage is, he's not a politician in the UK, he's someone who would like to be a politician but doesn't have the votes and always loses in the general election. The only institution willing to give him power is the European Parliament, where he rarely shows up and when he does he bitches about how bad it is. He won't work with anyone and therefore can't do anything in the EU Parliament so he takes his paycheck and goes home to whine about how bad the system is to a British population who know better than to even give him a seat in their Parliament.
Truly a role model for Trump supporters. So by saying he's not a politician in the UK, you mean he's a politician in the UK, freely elected to a position in the European parliament. He also headed a UK political party. The whole doesn't show up/won't work with anyone is the same dishonesty we saw in US elections when someone challenges the established order. Yeah, you seek a diminishing of power, with it's related effects on political favors and pork. It doesn't win you friends. Angelic White Crusader with the perfect reform package would get the same treatment ... doesn't work with anyone, whines about how bad the system is. It sounds like he's doing a terrific job, might even be doing exactly what he was sent there to do. If Europe was committed to reforms in its laws and votes were close returning some legal autonomy when it matters (pick your issue), I'd expect him to show up frequently, certainly. The case being the opposite, I'd also expect him to do an opposition speech every now and then (to a half empty hall from the looks of things in video anyways) even though it falls on deaf ears. Frankly it looks like a resume enhancer. The left/center hates him, as they ought, for the partisan reasons they cite every time, awesome. Politically, it appears to be a veiled attack on the voting base that dared send anybody close to him. You dummies ought to believe what EP is doing is totally innocuous, y'all ought to be at home with all compromises made to pass laws, and you ought to be mad at him for not showing up this much. I'm doing some broad generalizing between US/UK since you did Farage/Trump. The duty of an opposition is to oppose. + Show Spoiler +It is a very strange thing lately with the job performance path of criticism. I talk with people that oppose everything the candidate stands for, all his methods and speeches, can't even find themselves compromising one inch on big issues. Pardon me if I don't let you choose the type of candidate I can elect that shows no hope of winning your vote should he dramatically change his behavior. We value very different things; and I marvel at how often I'm told x, y, and z ought to be lese-majeste for me too.
Trump's an extreme example and I'm more referring to the Cruz/Sessions/Lee/Sasse line. Don't expect me to defend more than half of what Trump's said and done.
I mean that he sits on no town council for any town in the UK, no county council, he is mayor of no city, he does not represent the people in any of our four elected Parliaments, nor in the House of Lords. That there is no elected body within the UK in which he represents the British people. But sure, he leads an organization that calls itself a political party so I guess that makes him a politician by your definition. As long as you don't include any kind of governing in that definition. Regarding his not showing up, his party is almost exclusively funded by EU funds due to the EU Parliament being the only place they win anything (due to regional PR elections) which makes the whole charade even more disgraceful. It's little more than a con job at this point. Note that no other Euroskeptic party in the European Parliament has anything like their absenteeism.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/datablog/2015/jun/11/ukip-europe-laziest-party-parliament
The American fetishization of Farage has always been funny to me and other Brits I know. They see clips of him on youtube talking in the European Parliament and conjure up mental images of Churchill, largely due to a lack of familiarity with the actual workings of politics outside their own nation.
Farage is a small man with a small mind.
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It's the accent man...
I'm telling you wer all just inclined to think everyone with a middle to upper class English accent is smart for some reason
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On August 26 2016 00:50 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2016 18:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 25 2016 17:41 schaf wrote:On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops... How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-man-shot-cops-calling-report-robbery-article-1.2762748 As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general? Not related: did I use my " 's " correctly? Leaving it blank probably wouldn't change much, as people would just make presumptions based on their prejudices (you can usually tell from the language describing folks too). Can't remember ever hearing about a white guy who calls the cops for help only to be shot by them though. My point is that we should all be outraged that the cops would try to protect incompetent and/or criminal cops. People keep getting lost in thinking about the way people present their argument, just stop and think for a moment how seemingly average people react to the wrongful notion that their 1st amendment is being threatened on a forum, then imagine that not only are the protesters living under crushing poverty (the kind people who complain on forums rarely know) they are also ACTUALLY having their constitutional rights denied Instead of everyone flipping out about millions of Americans being abused and living under the kind of oppression that comes from having your 4th amendment (among others) rights crapped on, people are busy pondering about better approaches to getting white people to care and not hurt their feelings. I know most people here don't appreciate just how twisted and appalling that is, but I'm hoping one day it sinks in. Just wondering, but you are aware that more white people are killed by cops than black people are, and that more black people are killed by other black (non police) people, than they are by cops, right? Why aren't those being protested? I'm all for cops not shooting innocent people, or being able to abuse their power to act like dicks. But in this case, the guy came out with a gun. Yes, he (most likely) legally owned it, and yes it was his own house. But given how many cops have been killed recently, and mostly by black people too, do you not think they would have reason to be alarmed at a black person with a gun coming at them? Especially given that not long ago a black person made a call claiming his car was being robbed, only to ambush and shoot the responding officer? Do you not think that perhaps all of the blacklives matter people calling for police blood and the killing of cops, would make it more likely that a black person with a gun is seen as a threat by the police?
2 things. Black people tend to be hidden away in black neighborhoods because of segregation and perpetuation of poverty, meaning it is much more likely for black people to interact with black people and thus kill more black people.
Second, the # of white people killed shouldn't be compared because there are many more white people. Additionally, the issue is the percentage. For any given person stopped by police, the chance to be killed is significantly higher for a black person. Black people are more likely to be pulled over, harassed, charged with drug crimes and a plethora of other blatant profiling. Was it not Baltimore that was recently outed as ACTUALLY directing cops to target minorities? The justice department has been uncovering a lot of confirmation regarding profiling and there is a reason we are seeing some police forces going through some rough transitions.
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On August 25 2016 22:57 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2016 13:38 ragz_gt wrote:
A lot of the medical research is also run at an efficiency that put the laziest government workers to shame.
Problem is that big pharma doesn't do research from scratch, they invest in a smaller companies to do research for them, then they buy up the promising ones at significantly lower amount than it worth to them and refine them and push them from FDA because they have the expertise for all the trials and government regulations and stuff that small companies don't.
What end up is a large number of small research companies that has decent chunk of change in investment but not too good of an odd of success and not a lot of motivation to do so, end up in being party companies more or less.
I have relative that in 10 years worked in 4 small pharma research companies, all headed by same group of people. They take an idea, ask for funding, but after they get it they are doing the bare minimum that won't get them sued, free meal everyday, free alcohol in full stock, a lot of people work 3 days a week and company wine tasting every month. After 3 years with not much to show for it, investor gets fed up, stops funding, company close shop, then 2 month later they take another idea and start the cycle again.
There are definitely many really amazing companies that does wonderful things, but there are also a lot more free loaders taking advantage of the shotgun investment. That's not a "private industry" issue. Many in academia do the same thing, just doing the bare minimum to match the grant they got just working their way to tenure. Same with government labs. They're paid shit and have no reason to care about anything else apart from getting tenure. So get the grant, slow roll a paper every year, tell people at the conference that you're "almost there" a tenure later and you peace out. Heck, I've had many academics get upset with me that they would have to work 5 days a week without unlimited vacations to take as will. Sadly, laziness is a human issue and not a policy one.
It is much harder to do that in academia now because how tight grant is nowadays but I wouldn't be surprised. But at least when they do it they are not driving up the cost as much (for being cheap bastards, grants is peanuts compare to private fundings). I think pharma, and health care in general, should be kind of public good institutes that has profit capped somehow, because when you free market value of life you are one step away from ransom business.
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I wonder what, if there is one, the best ratio of cops killing people to cops being killed is; in terms of protecting society, balancing rights, and of course the occasional sad necessities, is.
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On August 26 2016 01:15 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 01:11 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 01:05 hunts wrote:On August 26 2016 01:02 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 00:50 hunts wrote:On August 25 2016 18:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 25 2016 17:41 schaf wrote:On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops... How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-man-shot-cops-calling-report-robbery-article-1.2762748 As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general? Not related: did I use my " 's " correctly? Leaving it blank probably wouldn't change much, as people would just make presumptions based on their prejudices (you can usually tell from the language describing folks too). Can't remember ever hearing about a white guy who calls the cops for help only to be shot by them though. My point is that we should all be outraged that the cops would try to protect incompetent and/or criminal cops. People keep getting lost in thinking about the way people present their argument, just stop and think for a moment how seemingly average people react to the wrongful notion that their 1st amendment is being threatened on a forum, then imagine that not only are the protesters living under crushing poverty (the kind people who complain on forums rarely know) they are also ACTUALLY having their constitutional rights denied Instead of everyone flipping out about millions of Americans being abused and living under the kind of oppression that comes from having your 4th amendment (among others) rights crapped on, people are busy pondering about better approaches to getting white people to care and not hurt their feelings. I know most people here don't appreciate just how twisted and appalling that is, but I'm hoping one day it sinks in. Just wondering, but you are aware that more white people are killed by cops than black people are, and that more black people are killed by other black (non police) people, than they are by cops, right? Why aren't those being protested? I'm all for cops not shooting innocent people, or being able to abuse their power to act like dicks. But in this case, the guy came out with a gun. Yes, he (most likely) legally owned it, and yes it was his own house. But given how many cops have been killed recently, and mostly by black people too, do you not think they would have reason to be alarmed at a black person with a gun coming at them? Especially given that not long ago a black person made a call claiming his car was being robbed, only to ambush and shoot the responding officer? Do you not think that perhaps all of the blacklives matter people calling for police blood and the killing of cops, would make it more likely that a black person with a gun is seen as a threat by the police? Your numbers have been debunked a million times before. Raw numbers ("more whites killed than blacks") don't mean anything because, proportionally, black people are arrested, shot, pulled over, convicted, and sentenced to jail time far, far, far more often than they should be. "black on black crime" is also a lazy argument because anyone of any race is overwhelmingly likely to be killed by a person of their own race; "white on white" crime numbers are the same as "black on black" crime numbers. And no, there is no justification for the cops shooting a man that is legally armed in his own home. If you have the legal authority to execute someone in certain situations, your actions should be held to incredibly high standards. You need to be better at your job under pressure. If he was in his own home, how did the cops that were outside shoot him? He was standing in his garage and opened the garage door. This 1) in his home and 2) even if you want to argue useless semantics, still on his property. It speaks volumes that instead of addressing the numerous points that I debunked, you have to ask a totally irrelevant question. I also think it's sad that, predictably, the NRA won't say shit about defending this man's right to own and handle a gun on his property against tyrannical government when they will routinely do that for any white man that gets accidentally shot by a cop while using a gun. Meh. Normally I would be outraged by this, because cops really need to not be so trigger happy, and need to be held accountable when they are. But with all of the BLM spouting about killing white people and killing cops, and the actual cases of blacks calling the cops and reporting a false crime just to ambush and shoot the cops, I think this guy was just collateral damage caused by the BLM's racist rhetoric which is putting cops in danger, and will make them much more defensive around black people.
Cops are in danger from the general public because they keep shooting people they shouldn't
If cops want to respect their profession deserves they have to earn it. And they do that by upholding the law and not shooting anything that appears to be remotely threatening.
Yes its dangerous to be a cop in the US. Yes they need to be careful but there is a difference between being careful and approaching a routine traffic stop for a broken tail light with your weapon drawn (just to mention a recent case).
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On August 26 2016 02:04 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 01:15 hunts wrote:On August 26 2016 01:11 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 01:05 hunts wrote:On August 26 2016 01:02 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 00:50 hunts wrote:On August 25 2016 18:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 25 2016 17:41 schaf wrote:On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops... How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-man-shot-cops-calling-report-robbery-article-1.2762748 As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general? Not related: did I use my " 's " correctly? Leaving it blank probably wouldn't change much, as people would just make presumptions based on their prejudices (you can usually tell from the language describing folks too). Can't remember ever hearing about a white guy who calls the cops for help only to be shot by them though. My point is that we should all be outraged that the cops would try to protect incompetent and/or criminal cops. People keep getting lost in thinking about the way people present their argument, just stop and think for a moment how seemingly average people react to the wrongful notion that their 1st amendment is being threatened on a forum, then imagine that not only are the protesters living under crushing poverty (the kind people who complain on forums rarely know) they are also ACTUALLY having their constitutional rights denied Instead of everyone flipping out about millions of Americans being abused and living under the kind of oppression that comes from having your 4th amendment (among others) rights crapped on, people are busy pondering about better approaches to getting white people to care and not hurt their feelings. I know most people here don't appreciate just how twisted and appalling that is, but I'm hoping one day it sinks in. Just wondering, but you are aware that more white people are killed by cops than black people are, and that more black people are killed by other black (non police) people, than they are by cops, right? Why aren't those being protested? I'm all for cops not shooting innocent people, or being able to abuse their power to act like dicks. But in this case, the guy came out with a gun. Yes, he (most likely) legally owned it, and yes it was his own house. But given how many cops have been killed recently, and mostly by black people too, do you not think they would have reason to be alarmed at a black person with a gun coming at them? Especially given that not long ago a black person made a call claiming his car was being robbed, only to ambush and shoot the responding officer? Do you not think that perhaps all of the blacklives matter people calling for police blood and the killing of cops, would make it more likely that a black person with a gun is seen as a threat by the police? Your numbers have been debunked a million times before. Raw numbers ("more whites killed than blacks") don't mean anything because, proportionally, black people are arrested, shot, pulled over, convicted, and sentenced to jail time far, far, far more often than they should be. "black on black crime" is also a lazy argument because anyone of any race is overwhelmingly likely to be killed by a person of their own race; "white on white" crime numbers are the same as "black on black" crime numbers. And no, there is no justification for the cops shooting a man that is legally armed in his own home. If you have the legal authority to execute someone in certain situations, your actions should be held to incredibly high standards. You need to be better at your job under pressure. If he was in his own home, how did the cops that were outside shoot him? He was standing in his garage and opened the garage door. This 1) in his home and 2) even if you want to argue useless semantics, still on his property. It speaks volumes that instead of addressing the numerous points that I debunked, you have to ask a totally irrelevant question. I also think it's sad that, predictably, the NRA won't say shit about defending this man's right to own and handle a gun on his property against tyrannical government when they will routinely do that for any white man that gets accidentally shot by a cop while using a gun. Meh. Normally I would be outraged by this, because cops really need to not be so trigger happy, and need to be held accountable when they are. But with all of the BLM spouting about killing white people and killing cops, and the actual cases of blacks calling the cops and reporting a false crime just to ambush and shoot the cops, I think this guy was just collateral damage caused by the BLM's racist rhetoric which is putting cops in danger, and will make them much more defensive around black people. Cops are in danger from the general public because they keep shooting people they shouldn't If cops want to respect their profession deserves they have to earn it. And they do that by upholding the law and not shooting anything that appears to be remotely threatening. Yes its dangerous to be a cop in the US. Yes they need to be careful but there is a difference between being careful and approaching a routine traffic stop for a broken tail light with your weapon drawn (just to mention a recent case).
One police department addressed their problems with racial profiling in traffic stops by informing police to no longer pull people over for inspection infractions like out tail lights and so on. It pretty much solved the problem and the police chief argued that removing that duty from police officers would solve a lot of problems and make traffic stops for infractions safer.
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On August 26 2016 02:04 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 01:15 hunts wrote:On August 26 2016 01:11 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 01:05 hunts wrote:On August 26 2016 01:02 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 00:50 hunts wrote:On August 25 2016 18:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 25 2016 17:41 schaf wrote:On August 25 2016 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Aaaannnnd that's why I don't call the cops... How many more shootings is it going to take?
Black Indianapolis man shot by cops after calling police to report robbery
Few cases typify everything that is wrong with gun rights, police brutality and racial profiling like this one.
Early Tuesday in Indianapolis, an African-American woman was being carjacked in front of her home in her working class neighborhood. She ran back in the house, told her husband, who is also black, and they called the police to report the robbery. That seemed to be the right and safe thing to do.
As the police pulled up, the husband, who was later identified as 48-year-old Carl Williams, opened the garage to their home and was immediately shot in the gut by police.
They claim they believed he was the robber and that because he had a firearm of his own, he was shot in self-defense. Officials identified the officer who shot Williams as nine-year veteran cop Christopher Mills.
He, of course, was not the robber. In fact, police have yet to even say if they caught the robber. Since they dusted the car for fingerprints, it appears that the actual man committing a crime got away and the man who wanted to protect his wife and family was instead shot and currently fighting for his own life in the hospital.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-man-shot-cops-calling-report-robbery-article-1.2762748 As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general? Not related: did I use my " 's " correctly? Leaving it blank probably wouldn't change much, as people would just make presumptions based on their prejudices (you can usually tell from the language describing folks too). Can't remember ever hearing about a white guy who calls the cops for help only to be shot by them though. My point is that we should all be outraged that the cops would try to protect incompetent and/or criminal cops. People keep getting lost in thinking about the way people present their argument, just stop and think for a moment how seemingly average people react to the wrongful notion that their 1st amendment is being threatened on a forum, then imagine that not only are the protesters living under crushing poverty (the kind people who complain on forums rarely know) they are also ACTUALLY having their constitutional rights denied Instead of everyone flipping out about millions of Americans being abused and living under the kind of oppression that comes from having your 4th amendment (among others) rights crapped on, people are busy pondering about better approaches to getting white people to care and not hurt their feelings. I know most people here don't appreciate just how twisted and appalling that is, but I'm hoping one day it sinks in. Just wondering, but you are aware that more white people are killed by cops than black people are, and that more black people are killed by other black (non police) people, than they are by cops, right? Why aren't those being protested? I'm all for cops not shooting innocent people, or being able to abuse their power to act like dicks. But in this case, the guy came out with a gun. Yes, he (most likely) legally owned it, and yes it was his own house. But given how many cops have been killed recently, and mostly by black people too, do you not think they would have reason to be alarmed at a black person with a gun coming at them? Especially given that not long ago a black person made a call claiming his car was being robbed, only to ambush and shoot the responding officer? Do you not think that perhaps all of the blacklives matter people calling for police blood and the killing of cops, would make it more likely that a black person with a gun is seen as a threat by the police? Your numbers have been debunked a million times before. Raw numbers ("more whites killed than blacks") don't mean anything because, proportionally, black people are arrested, shot, pulled over, convicted, and sentenced to jail time far, far, far more often than they should be. "black on black crime" is also a lazy argument because anyone of any race is overwhelmingly likely to be killed by a person of their own race; "white on white" crime numbers are the same as "black on black" crime numbers. And no, there is no justification for the cops shooting a man that is legally armed in his own home. If you have the legal authority to execute someone in certain situations, your actions should be held to incredibly high standards. You need to be better at your job under pressure. If he was in his own home, how did the cops that were outside shoot him? He was standing in his garage and opened the garage door. This 1) in his home and 2) even if you want to argue useless semantics, still on his property. It speaks volumes that instead of addressing the numerous points that I debunked, you have to ask a totally irrelevant question. I also think it's sad that, predictably, the NRA won't say shit about defending this man's right to own and handle a gun on his property against tyrannical government when they will routinely do that for any white man that gets accidentally shot by a cop while using a gun. Meh. Normally I would be outraged by this, because cops really need to not be so trigger happy, and need to be held accountable when they are. But with all of the BLM spouting about killing white people and killing cops, and the actual cases of blacks calling the cops and reporting a false crime just to ambush and shoot the cops, I think this guy was just collateral damage caused by the BLM's racist rhetoric which is putting cops in danger, and will make them much more defensive around black people. Cops are in danger from the general public because they keep shooting people they shouldn't If cops want to respect their profession deserves they have to earn it.
Look at the requirements of being a cop. It's not a special bunch. The requirements should be higher and they should be paid much more. Until that happens, nothing will change. The people going on to be doctors and engineers are generally not the same group that go on to be cops. Sure, you hear some hero stories about people with law degrees being cops, but that's not the average. When you give middle of the curve people the authority to kill, it's gonna mess with them. Put them in a uniform which distinguishes them from everyone else, have safety be considered their duty, and things are gonna get weird. Middle of the curve is not the right group for that kinda stuff.
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The gun situation in US just makes cop's job incredibly tough, lack of proper training surely doesn't help either.
It's stupid that driving require much more training because it's not a "right". If Trump vows to add right to driving as 12th article, I'd vote for him.
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On August 26 2016 02:09 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 02:04 Gorsameth wrote:On August 26 2016 01:15 hunts wrote:On August 26 2016 01:11 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 01:05 hunts wrote:On August 26 2016 01:02 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 26 2016 00:50 hunts wrote:On August 25 2016 18:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 25 2016 17:41 schaf wrote:As a thought experiment: imagine this article and all others never mention the victim's, the cop's and indeed no other person's race. How many more people would be on the streets or upset in general? Not related: did I use my " 's " correctly? Leaving it blank probably wouldn't change much, as people would just make presumptions based on their prejudices (you can usually tell from the language describing folks too). Can't remember ever hearing about a white guy who calls the cops for help only to be shot by them though. My point is that we should all be outraged that the cops would try to protect incompetent and/or criminal cops. People keep getting lost in thinking about the way people present their argument, just stop and think for a moment how seemingly average people react to the wrongful notion that their 1st amendment is being threatened on a forum, then imagine that not only are the protesters living under crushing poverty (the kind people who complain on forums rarely know) they are also ACTUALLY having their constitutional rights denied Instead of everyone flipping out about millions of Americans being abused and living under the kind of oppression that comes from having your 4th amendment (among others) rights crapped on, people are busy pondering about better approaches to getting white people to care and not hurt their feelings. I know most people here don't appreciate just how twisted and appalling that is, but I'm hoping one day it sinks in. Just wondering, but you are aware that more white people are killed by cops than black people are, and that more black people are killed by other black (non police) people, than they are by cops, right? Why aren't those being protested? I'm all for cops not shooting innocent people, or being able to abuse their power to act like dicks. But in this case, the guy came out with a gun. Yes, he (most likely) legally owned it, and yes it was his own house. But given how many cops have been killed recently, and mostly by black people too, do you not think they would have reason to be alarmed at a black person with a gun coming at them? Especially given that not long ago a black person made a call claiming his car was being robbed, only to ambush and shoot the responding officer? Do you not think that perhaps all of the blacklives matter people calling for police blood and the killing of cops, would make it more likely that a black person with a gun is seen as a threat by the police? Your numbers have been debunked a million times before. Raw numbers ("more whites killed than blacks") don't mean anything because, proportionally, black people are arrested, shot, pulled over, convicted, and sentenced to jail time far, far, far more often than they should be. "black on black crime" is also a lazy argument because anyone of any race is overwhelmingly likely to be killed by a person of their own race; "white on white" crime numbers are the same as "black on black" crime numbers. And no, there is no justification for the cops shooting a man that is legally armed in his own home. If you have the legal authority to execute someone in certain situations, your actions should be held to incredibly high standards. You need to be better at your job under pressure. If he was in his own home, how did the cops that were outside shoot him? He was standing in his garage and opened the garage door. This 1) in his home and 2) even if you want to argue useless semantics, still on his property. It speaks volumes that instead of addressing the numerous points that I debunked, you have to ask a totally irrelevant question. I also think it's sad that, predictably, the NRA won't say shit about defending this man's right to own and handle a gun on his property against tyrannical government when they will routinely do that for any white man that gets accidentally shot by a cop while using a gun. Meh. Normally I would be outraged by this, because cops really need to not be so trigger happy, and need to be held accountable when they are. But with all of the BLM spouting about killing white people and killing cops, and the actual cases of blacks calling the cops and reporting a false crime just to ambush and shoot the cops, I think this guy was just collateral damage caused by the BLM's racist rhetoric which is putting cops in danger, and will make them much more defensive around black people. Cops are in danger from the general public because they keep shooting people they shouldn't If cops want to respect their profession deserves they have to earn it. Look at the requirements of being a cop. It's not a special bunch. The requirements should be higher and they should be paid much more. Until that happens, nothing will change. The people going on to be doctors and engineers are generally not the same group that go on to be cops. Sure, you hear some hero stories about people with law degrees being cops, but that's not the average. When you give middle of the curve people the authority to kill, it's gonna mess with them. Put them in a uniform which distinguishes them from everyone else, have safety be considered their duty, and things are gonna get weird. Middle of the curve is not the right group for that kinda stuff.
We had a great discussion in this thread about it a while back that basically boiled it down to training.
Your not going to get the world brightest in the police academies but the current training police receive is horrible insufficient and the primary cause of failed police action resulting in unnecessary death.
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United States43532 Posts
On August 26 2016 02:11 ragz_gt wrote:
The gun situation in US just makes cop's job incredibly tough, lack of proper training surely doesn't help either.
It's stupid that driving require much more training because it's not a "right". If Trump vows to add right to driving as 12th article, I'd vote for him.
And put an end to all that sweet "I'm not driving, I'm travelling" fun?
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On August 26 2016 01:56 zlefin wrote:
I wonder what, if there is one, the best ratio of cops killing people to cops being killed is; in terms of protecting society, balancing rights, and of course the occasional sad necessities, is.
You can't divide by 0 
I'm not really sure how one would set up the data. Protecting society = removing threats from it? Change in police behaviour will alter criminal behaviour. If you are getting chased by the cops, have a gun and are sure they will shoot you eventually, you might shoot first. If you believe they will treat you according to your rights, you throw away the gun and maybe give up. Or run faster.
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As Donald Trump soft-pedals his once-hard-line immigration rhetoric, supporters of his vanquished primary foe Ted Cruz have one message for Republican voters: We told you so.
Cruz spent the final months of his unsuccessful presidential primary run arguing that Trump was a not-so-closeted liberal whose conservative language on immigration was not to be trusted. Now, Trump says he is open to “softening” the approach to some undocumented immigrants already in this country, a departure from his previous calls for a deportation force.
And as Ted Cruz eyes his 2018 reelection bid, with some of his supporters holding out hopes for a 2020 presidential run, Cruz world feels vindicated.
"Everything Trump promises comes with an expiration date,” said Cruz’s former Senate communications director, Amanda Carpenter. “We knew it during the primary, and now it is apparent he has duped his most loyal supporters on the issue they care about most, immigration. Don't say we didn't warn them."
The Texas senator has been dealing with plenty of political fallout of his own after refusing to endorse Trump in his speech at the Republican National Convention, a move that generated anger among Trump supporters nationally and has stoked chatter of a primary challenge against Cruz in Texas.
But Trump’s rhetorical contortions on immigration this week are giving Cruz supporters in and around his orbit more hope that anger over the RNC speech, and over his broader opposition to Trump, will fade. They are optimistic that the deeply conservative Cruz will emerge from November looking prescient in his warnings that Trump couldn’t be trusted to defend core GOP values, and say that Trump’s shifting on immigration language this week only proves Cruz’s point.
Source
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"Hey guys, your candidate isn't as big of an asshole as you thought, you should have voted for the real asshole like we did."
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The choice between being poisoned or getting shot.
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EPT
