|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 15 2016 02:18 zlefin wrote:
uldridge -> do you want specific answers to any of those questions, or are you content to pose them as important things to discuss?
Question is badly framed. The real question is : why is it that poor people, with no parents (or one single parents) and who fail at school are more prone to crime than others ?
The color does not play a role, but framing the question in racial term has actual huge implication on politics.
|
I think it's a systemic problem in the US that needs to be addressed before actual change is going to happen, because as far as I know, the only thing that's actually happening about it at the moment is the same old.
Cops kill (black) people way too easily. Some shit about it on the news, maybe a movement or two riles up some emotions, it all dies down again. It's a perpetuum ad nauseam.
So yes, these questions are at the basis for all these problems, maybe it's too broad, maybe there are too few questions I've posed, but there needs to be a platform to discuss them and when there's just nothing done about fundamental flaws that keep showing up, a movement that barely adds anything but certainly has a loud mouth isn't going to stop that.
@WhiteDog
It's poorly framed and it's not at the same time.
Because, while it shouldn't be a racial issue, it certainly is in the US, because there is an overrepresentation of black people related to crime compared to people with other skin colours. And certainly socio-economic reasons are a big part of it, maybe even the only reason, I don't know. That's why I'm asking the question.
Or maybe there's some covert systemic racial division run by the government to make sure that with infrastructural and urban planning, black people will have to live disproporionately in worse neighbourhoods for generations to come?
|
uldridge -> I'll take that to mean you didn't want a specific answer on any of them.
|
If specific answers can be given to a question, why shouldn't you give them?
It's not because they're broad and may or may not be at the fundament of these problems that I wouldn't want specific answers to them.
Specifics may be a good start to open everything up...
|
Because I wasn't sure whether you were being rhetorical or not; how much you knew about the various discussions that have happened on them, etc. That's why I asked whether you wanted an answer.
also because answering them properly would take some time and citations, and if someone wasn't interested in reading them I wouldn't want to put in that work. the kind of answers people seek when asking on them in an internet forum can vary considerably.
so now i'm unclear what kind of answers you want, and if you do. long form, short form, single sentence.
|
This whole "people claiming to be systematically oppressed ought tailor their message to the expectations of the system oppressing them" spiel seems a little maladroit; agitation is the point?
|
I'm very interested in these issues and I promise you I would read them  . And I have to admit I don't know howmany discussions there have been about them, but I can understand quite alot, but the cycle keeps coming back and somehow I don't think these very fundamental issues have been properly addressed (ok I'm setting myself up to look pretty naive here hah)
If you're the person that would at least partly give me answers to these questions, I would be very grateful.
|
On August 15 2016 00:10 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah I'm definitely starting to side with the "burn it all down" mentality after the Baltimore stuff came out. It may not be pretty, but rioting has historically done a good job at getting stuff like this to change. What a sad reality that nothing else is effective when people are dying.
lol Ferguson, Chicago, NYC, Cleveland, etc... weren't enough, what about Baltimore changed your mind?
I've mentioned it countless times, but it's not just the killing either, it's the consistent and racialized denial of people's constitutional rights. Pretty sure white people did more than protest and try to cooperate last time they thought an oppressive government wasn't giving them the rights (some of which they kinda made up) they thought they deserved.
Meanwhile Black people are just trying to get the rights those white people killed, died, and started a WAR to obtain for "Americans" and then people want to say that Black people aren't being polite enough in their demands for their constitutional rights,
Honestly, those people are part of the problem. I can just imagine them in the 1700's arguing that Americans just need to talk more politely to the crown and stop being so disruptive if they really want to work something out. There's just no excuse to start a war over it. They need to be more inclusive to get my approval. It sounds even more ridiculous now than it did then.
|
|
|
On August 15 2016 02:55 farvacola wrote:
This whole "people claiming to be systematically oppressed ought tailor their message to the expectations of the system oppressing them" spiel seems a little maladroit; agitation is the point?
Agitation and violence is a necessity, so is a good political discourse and proposals to make that violence legitimate in the eyes of the population. If not you're nothing more than a bunch of criminals.
|
On August 15 2016 00:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 00:00 WhiteDog wrote:On August 14 2016 23:53 Nevuk wrote:
Who will have the guts to actually remove all police from the black neighborhoods I wonder ? The BLM and all the people pissed at the police/judiciary system have a legitimate reason to feel this way, but, at the moment, they dont seem to have the necessary nuance to actually find a compromise with the government. Doesn't look like the government is putting a thing on the table. Why aren't all those cops (and George Zimmerman since we are at it) in jail for a start? In France a cop kills someone and it's straight to cour d'assise
If only… But impunity is the rule in France as well. Both family members and various NGOs say the same thing for years. Until the ACAT [http://www.acatfrance.fr/] published some report a few months ago, there wasn't even some official record of people killed during police interventions.
After long procedures, the responsible cops mostly get nothing or derisory sanctions (non-lieu, sursis). The IGPN and justice mostly cover. Even when there's a solid case with proofs, etc., it's very rare to get the appropriate punishment. See for instance the recent Amine Bentounsi case: shot in the back + overwhelming evidence of lies from fellow cops to hide the mistake? Still relaxe.
Authorities opted for the same “CYA” attitude in France regarding cases of police brutality.
|
On August 15 2016 02:15 WhiteDog wrote:
Hahaha they're shouting "A - Anti - Anticapitalist ! AaaaA! Anti - Anticapitalist !".
My student chant that in manifestations too (I don't, I don't chant at all). It's the International !
Hahaha, lovely memories from this spring!
|
On August 15 2016 03:02 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 02:55 farvacola wrote:
This whole "people claiming to be systematically oppressed ought tailor their message to the expectations of the system oppressing them" spiel seems a little maladroit; agitation is the point? Agitation and violence is a necessity, so is a good political discourse and proposals to make that violence legitimate in the eyes of the population. If not you're nothing more than a bunch of criminals.
Even if that were true, criminals still have rights. "We can talk about how the police ended up this way, but right now, they need to be brought to heel". 
|
Considering how much BS Trump says and how often the 'lying press' is just directly quoting him there is almost a critical mass of irony in this tweet.
|
There's a certain satisfying irony to Donald Trump complaining that the press "say and write whatever they want even if it is completely false!"
Pot calling the kettle black, really.
|
On August 15 2016 03:02 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 02:55 farvacola wrote:
This whole "people claiming to be systematically oppressed ought tailor their message to the expectations of the system oppressing them" spiel seems a little maladroit; agitation is the point? Agitation and violence is a necessity, so is a good political discourse and proposals to make that violence legitimate in the eyes of the population. If not you're nothing more than a bunch of criminals.
By assessing things in this way, you're still putting putting the burden on the wrong party I think. I mean, look at US public political discourse outside the BLM arena; it's a goddamn shitshow and is, for the most part, entirely without "good" proposals and discussions. To then put the onus on those hardest hit by the status quo to basically overcome this rotten state of how we talk about politics by refining their message is to misallocate responsibility. If folks could get a palpable sense of what it's like to live in the neighborhoods that spawn these kinds of protests, I think they'd focus more on trying to actually change things rather than looking at potentially violent protestors with other-izing disdain.
|
On August 15 2016 03:04 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 00:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2016 00:00 WhiteDog wrote:Who will have the guts to actually remove all police from the black neighborhoods I wonder ? The BLM and all the people pissed at the police/judiciary system have a legitimate reason to feel this way, but, at the moment, they dont seem to have the necessary nuance to actually find a compromise with the government. Doesn't look like the government is putting a thing on the table. Why aren't all those cops (and George Zimmerman since we are at it) in jail for a start? In France a cop kills someone and it's straight to cour d'assise If only… But impunity is the rule in France as well. Both family members and various NGOs say the same thing for years. Until the ACAT [http://www.acatfrance.fr/] published some report a few months ago, there wasn't even some official record of people killed during police interventions. After long procedures, the responsible cops mostly get nothing or derisory sanctions (non-lieu, sursis). The IGPN and justice mostly cover. Even when there's a solid case with proofs, etc., it's very rare to get the appropriate punishment. See for instance the recent Amine Bentounsi case: shot in the back + overwhelming evidence of lies from fellow cops to hide the mistake? Still relaxe. Authorities opted for the same “CYA” attitude in France regarding cases of police brutality.
Yeah I hear this and at the same time it's full of shit if you actually look at numbers and compare reality.
Just to give some context - according to Mediapart there have been 412 people killed by the police in France in the last 50 years. In the US I think it's around 1200 in 2015 alone.
On August 15 2016 03:15 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 03:02 WhiteDog wrote:On August 15 2016 02:55 farvacola wrote:
This whole "people claiming to be systematically oppressed ought tailor their message to the expectations of the system oppressing them" spiel seems a little maladroit; agitation is the point? Agitation and violence is a necessity, so is a good political discourse and proposals to make that violence legitimate in the eyes of the population. If not you're nothing more than a bunch of criminals. By assessing things in this way, you're still putting putting the burden on the wrong party I think. I mean, look at US public political discourse outside the BLM arena; it's a goddamn shitshow and is, for the most part, entirely without "good" proposals and discussions. To then put the onus on those hardest hit by the status quo to basically overcome this rotten state of how we talk about politics by refining their message is to misallocate responsibility. If folks could get a palpable sense of what it's like to live in the neighborhoods that spawn these kinds of protests, I think they'd focus more on trying to actually change things rather than looking at potentially violent protestors with other-izing disdain.
It's the exact same here but because of this we're always losing. Ten people breaking a glass is sufficient to completly deligitimize a movement of a million.
|
On August 15 2016 03:15 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 03:04 TheDwf wrote:On August 15 2016 00:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2016 00:00 WhiteDog wrote:Who will have the guts to actually remove all police from the black neighborhoods I wonder ? The BLM and all the people pissed at the police/judiciary system have a legitimate reason to feel this way, but, at the moment, they dont seem to have the necessary nuance to actually find a compromise with the government. Doesn't look like the government is putting a thing on the table. Why aren't all those cops (and George Zimmerman since we are at it) in jail for a start? In France a cop kills someone and it's straight to cour d'assise If only… But impunity is the rule in France as well. Both family members and various NGOs say the same thing for years. Until the ACAT [http://www.acatfrance.fr/] published some report a few months ago, there wasn't even some official record of people killed during police interventions. After long procedures, the responsible cops mostly get nothing or derisory sanctions (non-lieu, sursis). The IGPN and justice mostly cover. Even when there's a solid case with proofs, etc., it's very rare to get the appropriate punishment. See for instance the recent Amine Bentounsi case: shot in the back + overwhelming evidence of lies from fellow cops to hide the mistake? Still relaxe. Authorities opted for the same “CYA” attitude in France regarding cases of police brutality. Yeah I hear this and at the same time it's full of shit if you actually look at numbers and compare reality. Just to give some context - according to Mediapart there have been 412 people killed by the police in France in the last 50 years. In the US I think it's around 1200 in 2015 alone.
The fact that there are considerably less police crimes in France has nothing to do with how they're handled, so your answer is fairly off-topic.
|
On August 15 2016 03:20 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 03:15 WhiteDog wrote:On August 15 2016 03:04 TheDwf wrote:On August 15 2016 00:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2016 00:00 WhiteDog wrote:Who will have the guts to actually remove all police from the black neighborhoods I wonder ? The BLM and all the people pissed at the police/judiciary system have a legitimate reason to feel this way, but, at the moment, they dont seem to have the necessary nuance to actually find a compromise with the government. Doesn't look like the government is putting a thing on the table. Why aren't all those cops (and George Zimmerman since we are at it) in jail for a start? In France a cop kills someone and it's straight to cour d'assise If only… But impunity is the rule in France as well. Both family members and various NGOs say the same thing for years. Until the ACAT [http://www.acatfrance.fr/] published some report a few months ago, there wasn't even some official record of people killed during police interventions. After long procedures, the responsible cops mostly get nothing or derisory sanctions (non-lieu, sursis). The IGPN and justice mostly cover. Even when there's a solid case with proofs, etc., it's very rare to get the appropriate punishment. See for instance the recent Amine Bentounsi case: shot in the back + overwhelming evidence of lies from fellow cops to hide the mistake? Still relaxe. Authorities opted for the same “CYA” attitude in France regarding cases of police brutality. Yeah I hear this and at the same time it's full of shit if you actually look at numbers and compare reality. Just to give some context - according to Mediapart there have been 412 people killed by the police in France in the last 50 years. In the US I think it's around 1200 in 2015 alone. The fact that there are considerably less police crimes in France has nothing to do with how they're handled, so your answer is fairly off-topic.
So let's disregard facts.
What I am saying is it is not comparable, not that everything is okay. But people overblow things without any kind of objectivity.
I myself almost got into a fight with cops from the "BAC" when I was younger ; so I can completly agree that those guys are bastards. But saying "Our police kill" is ridiculous.
|
On August 15 2016 03:15 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 03:02 WhiteDog wrote:On August 15 2016 02:55 farvacola wrote:
This whole "people claiming to be systematically oppressed ought tailor their message to the expectations of the system oppressing them" spiel seems a little maladroit; agitation is the point? Agitation and violence is a necessity, so is a good political discourse and proposals to make that violence legitimate in the eyes of the population. If not you're nothing more than a bunch of criminals. By assessing things in this way, you're still putting putting the burden on the wrong party I think. I mean, look at US public political discourse outside the BLM arena; it's a goddamn shitshow and is, for the most part, entirely without "good" proposals and discussions. To then put the onus on those hardest hit by the status quo to basically overcome this rotten state of how we talk about politics by refining their message is to misallocate responsibility. If folks could get a palpable sense of what it's like to live in the neighborhoods that spawn these kinds of protests, I think they'd focus more on trying to actually change things rather than looking at potentially violent protestors with other-izing disdain.
Focusing on whatever is perceived as “excess” in contesting is an old trick to delegitimize the whole protest anyway. Those are mostly excuses from people who refuse to address the problem, or want to minimize it. Every time people protest against something, you'll always have that guy coming from the outside to lecture protestors about how they should proceed instead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
