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On August 15 2016 00:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 15 2016 00:00 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 14 2016 23:53 Nevuk wrote:
Who will have the guts to actually remove all police from the black neighborhoods I wonder ?
The BLM and all the people pissed at the police/judiciary system have a legitimate reason to feel this way, but, at the moment, they dont seem to have the necessary nuance to actually find a compromise with the government.
Doesn't look like the government is putting a thing on the table.
Why aren't all those cops (and George Zimmerman since we are at it) in jail for a start? In France a cop kills someone and it's straight to cour d'assise
If only… But impunity is the rule in France as well. Both family members and various NGOs say the same thing for years. Until the ACAT [http://www.acatfrance.fr/] published some report a few months ago, there wasn't even some official record of people killed during police interventions.
After long procedures, the responsible cops mostly get nothing or derisory sanctions (non-lieu, sursis). The IGPN and justice mostly cover. Even when there's a solid case with proofs, etc., it's very rare to get the appropriate punishment. See for instance the recent Amine Bentounsi case: shot in the back + overwhelming evidence of lies from fellow cops to hide the mistake? Still relaxe.
Authorities opted for the same “CYA” attitude in France regarding cases of police brutality.
Yeah I hear this and at the same time it's full of shit if you actually look at numbers and compare reality.
Just to give some context - according to Mediapart there have been 412 people killed by the police in France in the last 50 years. In the US I think it's around 1200 in 2015 alone.
The fact that there are considerably less police crimes in France has nothing to do with how they're handled, so your answer is fairly off-topic.
So let's disregard facts.
What I am saying is it is not comparable, not that everything is okay. But people overblow things without any kind of objectivity. I myself almost got into a fight with cops from the "BAC" when I was younger ; so I can completly agree that those guys are bastards. But saying "Our police kill" is ridiculous.
Can you read what I write instead of answering on autopilot? I talked about the way authorities handle the problem, not about the amount of people shot by police each year. I am fully aware that less people die because of police in France; thank you. But the few who do (~10-15 per year) rarely get justice, unlike what the poster I was responding to was claiming.
If cops were just honest like this ex-cop we would make 1,000,000x the progress we could make if every BLM protester was a world class orator and scholar.
A number of points need to be addressed and seriously thought about and fixed before you can go on: 1. Why is a disproportionate amount of black people involved in crime in the USA? 2. Follow-up: is it wrong for cops to do racial profiling when they have (and knowledge of) these statistics? 3. Why is there such a lax attitude towards using (potential) deadly force in the police force? 4. How rigorous is the training? 5. How intense are the streets they are patrolling?
numbers added to questions for easier reponding 1. unknown. It's not just a result of being more likely to be poor, as studies have checked for that. It's likely a complex cultural dynamic that has had interplay over a long period of time with many factors. The deterioration of black families has certainly made it more of a problem. Long term effects of discrimination can lead to poor economic situations and greater cultural insularity, which causes more tribalism and a greater willingness to victimize "outsiders" (who counts as outsider can of course vary widely). Related dynamics have occurred elsewhere such as the Roma (I assume you already know enough about them), the Japanese Burakumin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34615972)
3. I wouldn't call it truly lax; but there's a real willingness to use it certainly. It's still the case that the majority of officers go their whole career without ever firing their weapon. But they all train for the possibility that they might have to. The typical lack of consequences beyond minor administrative penalties probably contributes to it; as does the lack of strong, independent oversight. Stricter fire discipline could be used certainly. There's a common fear amongst police families of the officer not surviving; and given the risks of the job many officers and policies make a strong effort to ensure the officer makes it home alive at the end of the day. An understandable goal, but it can also lead to things that are less safe for others. America is a large and moderately violent country; and cops hear about all the ways that things have gone wrong, so they can get a bit overdefensive. fbi study on cop deaths: http://files.policemag.com/design-elements/fbi-in-the-line-of-fire.pdf a shorter thing which has some of the data on conclusions and notes from that: http://www.theppsc.org/Archives/DF_Articles/Officers-Killed/Fed-Stats/1992_FBI_Study.htm
4. fairly rigorous, for the shooting and when to shoot. but there's often not enough training in de-escalation techniques which might prevent the need for a shooting. It varies also by state/jurisdiction, and some places may not have as much training as they should (I don't know).
5. most aren't that dangerous; a few are. There's a few places where the murder rate exceeds 30 per 100,000 annually. The fact that 1/3 americans have guns, and criminals can easily get them, means a higher rate of caution is used than might apply in places where there's less risk of someone having a concealed gun. but even in non-dangerous areas, there's always a risk of things turning very bad very quickly; which is something they always try to stay aware of (and may contribute to them being a bit too willing to fire). Especially in traffic stops (which might otherwise seem routine) or domestic violence situations (which are very common, and can turn very ugly fast)
if you had other questions you wanted answered, state them, and I'll see what I can say.
Thank you for the response, I'll check the links later I think it's sometimes difficult to understand the actual public climate when there such a difference in geographics and culture. It would be interesting to study (if that hasn't been done already) how the psychology between cops of different area's (more violent/non-predictable vs less violent) are and if there exists differences in approach to (standard) situations.
On August 15 2016 04:33 Uldridge wrote: Thank you for the response, I'll check the links later I think it's sometimes difficult to understand the actual public climate when there such a difference in geographics and culture. It would be interesting to study (if that hasn't been done already) how the psychology between cops of different area's (more violent/non-predictable vs less violent) are and if there exists differences in approach to (standard) situations.
If you're further interested in a statistics-based study and a perspective from the right, Heather MacDonald published a book on the subject and did interviews about the book and in light of subsequent police shootings. The misinformation present from the movement and its leaders, how America's elected officials have responded, and how we got here. Since you mention psychology and geographic disparity, I think you might get something out of it. Heavy editorializing but the lady did her research and with the surfeit of biased reporting on the topic, it's best to get both sides. + Show Spoiler +
Under Clinton's leadership, the State Department approved $165 billion worth of commercial arms sales to 20 nations whose governments have given money to the Clinton Foundation, according to an IBTimes analysis of State Department and foundation data. That figure -- derived from the three full fiscal years of Clinton’s term as Secretary of State (from October 2010 to September 2012) -- represented nearly double the value of American arms sales made to the those countries and approved by the State Department during the same period of President George W. Bush’s second term.
The Clinton-led State Department also authorized $151 billion of separate Pentagon-brokered deals for 16 of the countries that donated to the Clinton Foundation, resulting in a 143 percent increase in completed sales to those nations over the same time frame during the Bush administration. These extra sales were part of a broad increase in American military exports that accompanied Obama’s arrival in the White House. The 143 percent increase in U.S. arms sales to Clinton Foundation donors compares to an 80 percent increase in such sales to all countries over the same time period.
On August 15 2016 05:25 oBlade wrote: That information is all true and verifiable. "White supremacists" is a distraction. One of the fringe websites you can find those numbers:
Under Clinton's leadership, the State Department approved $165 billion worth of commercial arms sales to 20 nations whose governments have given money to the Clinton Foundation, according to an IBTimes analysis of State Department and foundation data. That figure -- derived from the three full fiscal years of Clinton’s term as Secretary of State (from October 2010 to September 2012) -- represented nearly double the value of American arms sales made to the those countries and approved by the State Department during the same period of President George W. Bush’s second term.
The Clinton-led State Department also authorized $151 billion of separate Pentagon-brokered deals for 16 of the countries that donated to the Clinton Foundation, resulting in a 143 percent increase in completed sales to those nations over the same time frame during the Bush administration. These extra sales were part of a broad increase in American military exports that accompanied Obama’s arrival in the White House. The 143 percent increase in U.S. arms sales to Clinton Foundation donors compares to an 80 percent increase in such sales to all countries over the same time period.
Not looking into this too deeply, but...
1) As far as I know, the Secretary of State doesn't sign off on weapon sales, Congress does.
2) 2007-2008 was a global recession. How do those weapon sales compare to pre-recession, or compare to the increase in other goods?
On August 15 2016 04:33 Uldridge wrote: Thank you for the response, I'll check the links later I think it's sometimes difficult to understand the actual public climate when there such a difference in geographics and culture. It would be interesting to study (if that hasn't been done already) how the psychology between cops of different area's (more violent/non-predictable vs less violent) are and if there exists differences in approach to (standard) situations.
If you're further interested in a statistics-based study and a perspective from the right, Heather MacDonald published a book on the subject and did interviews about the book and in light of subsequent police shootings. The misinformation present from the movement and its leaders, how America's elected officials have responded, and how we got here. Since you mention psychology and geographic disparity, I think you might get something out of it. Heavy editorializing but the lady did her research and with the surfeit of biased reporting on the topic, it's best to get both sides. + Show Spoiler +
On August 15 2016 03:57 GreenHorizons wrote: If cops were just honest like this ex-cop we would make 1,000,000x the progress we could make if every BLM protester was a world class orator and scholar.
Heard this guy in an interview and he was saying some wild bullshit too. If you think legalizing every drugs is a good solution, you're nuts and don't know shit about what you are talking about.
Who will have the guts to actually remove all police from the black neighborhoods I wonder ?
The BLM and all the people pissed at the police/judiciary system have a legitimate reason to feel this way, but, at the moment, they dont seem to have the necessary nuance to actually find a compromise with the government.
Doesn't look like the government is putting a thing on the table.
Why aren't all those cops (and George Zimmerman since we are at it) in jail for a start? In France a cop kills someone and it's straight to cour d'assise
If only… But impunity is the rule in France as well. Both family members and various NGOs say the same thing for years. Until the ACAT [http://www.acatfrance.fr/] published some report a few months ago, there wasn't even some official record of people killed during police interventions.
After long procedures, the responsible cops mostly get nothing or derisory sanctions (non-lieu, sursis). The IGPN and justice mostly cover. Even when there's a solid case with proofs, etc., it's very rare to get the appropriate punishment. See for instance the recent Amine Bentounsi case: shot in the back + overwhelming evidence of lies from fellow cops to hide the mistake? Still relaxe.
Authorities opted for the same “CYA” attitude in France regarding cases of police brutality.
Yeah I hear this and at the same time it's full of shit if you actually look at numbers and compare reality.
Just to give some context - according to Mediapart there have been 412 people killed by the police in France in the last 50 years. In the US I think it's around 1200 in 2015 alone.
The fact that there are considerably less police crimes in France has nothing to do with how they're handled, so your answer is fairly off-topic.
So let's disregard facts.
What I am saying is it is not comparable, not that everything is okay. But people overblow things without any kind of objectivity. I myself almost got into a fight with cops from the "BAC" when I was younger ; so I can completly agree that those guys are bastards. But saying "Our police kill" is ridiculous.
Can you read what I write instead of answering on autopilot? I talked about the way authorities handle the problem, not about the amount of people shot by police each year. I am fully aware that less people die because of police in France; thank you. But the few who do (~10-15 per year) rarely get justice, unlike what the poster I was responding to was claiming.
Yeah sure, or maybe you should understand what I am saying.
On August 15 2016 03:57 GreenHorizons wrote: If cops were just honest like this ex-cop we would make 1,000,000x the progress we could make if every BLM protester was a world class orator and scholar.
Heard this guy in an interview and he was saying some wild bullshit too. If you think legalizing every drugs is a good solution, you're nuts and don't know shit about what you are talking about.
Who will have the guts to actually remove all police from the black neighborhoods I wonder ?
The BLM and all the people pissed at the police/judiciary system have a legitimate reason to feel this way, but, at the moment, they dont seem to have the necessary nuance to actually find a compromise with the government.
Doesn't look like the government is putting a thing on the table.
Why aren't all those cops (and George Zimmerman since we are at it) in jail for a start? In France a cop kills someone and it's straight to cour d'assise
If only… But impunity is the rule in France as well. Both family members and various NGOs say the same thing for years. Until the ACAT [http://www.acatfrance.fr/] published some report a few months ago, there wasn't even some official record of people killed during police interventions.
After long procedures, the responsible cops mostly get nothing or derisory sanctions (non-lieu, sursis). The IGPN and justice mostly cover. Even when there's a solid case with proofs, etc., it's very rare to get the appropriate punishment. See for instance the recent Amine Bentounsi case: shot in the back + overwhelming evidence of lies from fellow cops to hide the mistake? Still relaxe.
Authorities opted for the same “CYA” attitude in France regarding cases of police brutality.
Yeah I hear this and at the same time it's full of shit if you actually look at numbers and compare reality.
Just to give some context - according to Mediapart there have been 412 people killed by the police in France in the last 50 years. In the US I think it's around 1200 in 2015 alone.
The fact that there are considerably less police crimes in France has nothing to do with how they're handled, so your answer is fairly off-topic.
So let's disregard facts.
What I am saying is it is not comparable, not that everything is okay. But people overblow things without any kind of objectivity. I myself almost got into a fight with cops from the "BAC" when I was younger ; so I can completly agree that those guys are bastards. But saying "Our police kill" is ridiculous.
Can you read what I write instead of answering on autopilot? I talked about the way authorities handle the problem, not about the amount of people shot by police each year. I am fully aware that less people die because of police in France; thank you. But the few who do (~10-15 per year) rarely get justice, unlike what the poster I was responding to was claiming.
Yeah sure, or maybe you should understand what I am saying.
Yeah I'm not asking them to be policy wonks, just be honest and stop trying to sell us a BS story that we and they know is total fantasy. His opinions on drug policy don't mean a whole lot to me. + Show Spoiler +
other than our current policy is quite obviously crap and it's hard to say with any certainty that bringing other substances into the fold like alcohol would be worse than what we have now. We're way past the point where it's safe to say this system is broken and we can try anything we don't know will definitely make it worse while we work on an even better solution, but I don't know what comments you're specifically referring to.
On August 15 2016 03:57 GreenHorizons wrote: If cops were just honest like this ex-cop we would make 1,000,000x the progress we could make if every BLM protester was a world class orator and scholar.
Heard this guy in an interview and he was saying some wild bullshit too. If you think legalizing every drugs is a good solution, you're nuts and don't know shit about what you are talking about.
On August 15 2016 03:55 TheDwf wrote:
On August 15 2016 03:25 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 15 2016 03:20 TheDwf wrote:
On August 15 2016 03:15 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 15 2016 03:04 TheDwf wrote:
On August 15 2016 00:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Who will have the guts to actually remove all police from the black neighborhoods I wonder ?
The BLM and all the people pissed at the police/judiciary system have a legitimate reason to feel this way, but, at the moment, they dont seem to have the necessary nuance to actually find a compromise with the government.
Doesn't look like the government is putting a thing on the table.
Why aren't all those cops (and George Zimmerman since we are at it) in jail for a start? In France a cop kills someone and it's straight to cour d'assise
If only… But impunity is the rule in France as well. Both family members and various NGOs say the same thing for years. Until the ACAT [http://www.acatfrance.fr/] published some report a few months ago, there wasn't even some official record of people killed during police interventions.
After long procedures, the responsible cops mostly get nothing or derisory sanctions (non-lieu, sursis). The IGPN and justice mostly cover. Even when there's a solid case with proofs, etc., it's very rare to get the appropriate punishment. See for instance the recent Amine Bentounsi case: shot in the back + overwhelming evidence of lies from fellow cops to hide the mistake? Still relaxe.
Authorities opted for the same “CYA” attitude in France regarding cases of police brutality.
Yeah I hear this and at the same time it's full of shit if you actually look at numbers and compare reality.
Just to give some context - according to Mediapart there have been 412 people killed by the police in France in the last 50 years. In the US I think it's around 1200 in 2015 alone.
The fact that there are considerably less police crimes in France has nothing to do with how they're handled, so your answer is fairly off-topic.
So let's disregard facts.
What I am saying is it is not comparable, not that everything is okay. But people overblow things without any kind of objectivity. I myself almost got into a fight with cops from the "BAC" when I was younger ; so I can completly agree that those guys are bastards. But saying "Our police kill" is ridiculous.
Can you read what I write instead of answering on autopilot? I talked about the way authorities handle the problem, not about the amount of people shot by police each year. I am fully aware that less people die because of police in France; thank you. But the few who do (~10-15 per year) rarely get justice, unlike what the poster I was responding to was claiming.
Yeah sure, or maybe you should understand what I am saying.
Yeah I'm not asking them to be policy wonks, just be honest and stop trying to sell us a BS story that we and they know is total fantasy. His opinions on drug policy don't mean a whole lot to me. + Show Spoiler +
other than our current policy is quite obviously crap and it's hard to say with any certainty that bringing other substances into the fold like alcohol would be worse than what we have now. We're way past the point where it's safe to say this system is broken and we can try anything we don't know will definitely make it worse while we work on an even better solution, but I don't know what comments you're specifically referring to.
Anybody who argues that there is no problem whatsoever with cops in the US is either a very heavy drug user or a filthy racist at this point.
This had a very interesting interview with a former NYPD officer about the state of policing in the US today. There's a transcript there if you don't want to listen to the full 10 minute interview, here's a bit of it quoted :
EUGENE O'DONNELL: What we have here, which is a crisis, unreported, is, in large cities, 80 percent of violent crime is not solved. The police now, presented with homicide cases, are giving black people, in the main, some Latino people, condolences. And I find that unacceptable.
Now, I could tell you forever how, how bad jail is, prison is, but we need something to incapacitate people that are a danger to the community. And if you walk in the City of Chicago, street by street, the South Side, the West Side, this is what the people in the neighborhood actually want. The one thing the country absolutely does not need is a rerunning of law and order-
[BROOKE LAUGHS]
- versus the new paradigm, which is the system is racist, let’s hit the shutdown button. The common thread is that poor people lose in both those conversations and have lost now for 30 years. It’s not a national crisis. The Republicans are talking junk, of course. The country is more safe, by and large, than it has been but in the inner cities we’ve got real serious issues, and they’re not just people shooting. How many African-American middle class people left Chicago, in the South Side, the West Side, in large part because of public safety, because their needs were being ignored?
Now, we have in Chicago now a police department in name only. They get there when they get there and, if you hear the cops talk, they say, be fetal, stay fetal, don't do anything at all, which is cruel because in the African-American community this has been a dual complaint. The cops are either brutal or feckless, there’s no in between. And that's where the conversation needs to be.
The latest wiki leaks emails have one where someone asks for a meeting to go over the process for the donars that send them a pay to play latter.
Theres no way that anyone can prove these emails are legit right?
On August 15 2016 07:01 LegalLord wrote: So far it's been pretty easy to determine whether or email leaks are legit by the fact that no one has denied their authenticity.
I should have said in the context that they might be legally actionable.
This had a very interesting interview with a former NYPD officer about the state of policing in the US today. There's a transcript there if you don't want to listen to the full 10 minute interview, here's a bit of it quoted :
EUGENE O'DONNELL: What we have here, which is a crisis, unreported, is, in large cities, 80 percent of violent crime is not solved. The police now, presented with homicide cases, are giving black people, in the main, some Latino people, condolences. And I find that unacceptable.
Now, I could tell you forever how, how bad jail is, prison is, but we need something to incapacitate people that are a danger to the community. And if you walk in the City of Chicago, street by street, the South Side, the West Side, this is what the people in the neighborhood actually want. The one thing the country absolutely does not need is a rerunning of law and order-
[BROOKE LAUGHS]
- versus the new paradigm, which is the system is racist, let’s hit the shutdown button. The common thread is that poor people lose in both those conversations and have lost now for 30 years. It’s not a national crisis. The Republicans are talking junk, of course. The country is more safe, by and large, than it has been but in the inner cities we’ve got real serious issues, and they’re not just people shooting. How many African-American middle class people left Chicago, in the South Side, the West Side, in large part because of public safety, because their needs were being ignored?
Now, we have in Chicago now a police department in name only. They get there when they get there and, if you hear the cops talk, they say, be fetal, stay fetal, don't do anything at all, which is cruel because in the African-American community this has been a dual complaint. The cops are either brutal or feckless, there’s no in between. And that's where the conversation needs to be.
Better statistic is that if you murder someone you have roughly a 50/50 proposition of being charged with that murder after everything. Go further then that and you see the huge database of arrest warrents that aren't fulfilled beacuse the police don't have the resources to go after them in their own cities let alone outside of their county.
So me I could take a few of my friends and go over to Chicago and rob a bunch of stuff from a store and as long as I'm able to get over to minnesota I'm pretty clear and free because theres no way chicago is going to pay for transporting us that far for a simple non violent robbery.
The whole system is broken and no one has any real solutions to fix it.
On August 15 2016 03:57 GreenHorizons wrote: If cops were just honest like this ex-cop we would make 1,000,000x the progress we could make if every BLM protester was a world class orator and scholar.
Heard this guy in an interview and he was saying some wild bullshit too. If you think legalizing every drugs is a good solution, you're nuts and don't know shit about what you are talking about.
On August 15 2016 03:55 TheDwf wrote:
On August 15 2016 03:25 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 15 2016 03:20 TheDwf wrote:
On August 15 2016 03:15 WhiteDog wrote:
On August 15 2016 03:04 TheDwf wrote:
On August 15 2016 00:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 15 2016 00:00 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] Who will have the guts to actually remove all police from the black neighborhoods I wonder ?
The BLM and all the people pissed at the police/judiciary system have a legitimate reason to feel this way, but, at the moment, they dont seem to have the necessary nuance to actually find a compromise with the government.
Doesn't look like the government is putting a thing on the table.
Why aren't all those cops (and George Zimmerman since we are at it) in jail for a start? In France a cop kills someone and it's straight to cour d'assise
If only… But impunity is the rule in France as well. Both family members and various NGOs say the same thing for years. Until the ACAT [http://www.acatfrance.fr/] published some report a few months ago, there wasn't even some official record of people killed during police interventions.
After long procedures, the responsible cops mostly get nothing or derisory sanctions (non-lieu, sursis). The IGPN and justice mostly cover. Even when there's a solid case with proofs, etc., it's very rare to get the appropriate punishment. See for instance the recent Amine Bentounsi case: shot in the back + overwhelming evidence of lies from fellow cops to hide the mistake? Still relaxe.
Authorities opted for the same “CYA” attitude in France regarding cases of police brutality.
Yeah I hear this and at the same time it's full of shit if you actually look at numbers and compare reality.
Just to give some context - according to Mediapart there have been 412 people killed by the police in France in the last 50 years. In the US I think it's around 1200 in 2015 alone.
The fact that there are considerably less police crimes in France has nothing to do with how they're handled, so your answer is fairly off-topic.
So let's disregard facts.
What I am saying is it is not comparable, not that everything is okay. But people overblow things without any kind of objectivity. I myself almost got into a fight with cops from the "BAC" when I was younger ; so I can completly agree that those guys are bastards. But saying "Our police kill" is ridiculous.
Can you read what I write instead of answering on autopilot? I talked about the way authorities handle the problem, not about the amount of people shot by police each year. I am fully aware that less people die because of police in France; thank you. But the few who do (~10-15 per year) rarely get justice, unlike what the poster I was responding to was claiming.
Yeah sure, or maybe you should understand what I am saying.
Yeah I'm not asking them to be policy wonks, just be honest and stop trying to sell us a BS story that we and they know is total fantasy. His opinions on drug policy don't mean a whole lot to me. + Show Spoiler +
other than our current policy is quite obviously crap and it's hard to say with any certainty that bringing other substances into the fold like alcohol would be worse than what we have now. We're way past the point where it's safe to say this system is broken and we can try anything we don't know will definitely make it worse while we work on an even better solution, but I don't know what comments you're specifically referring to.
Anybody who argues that there is no problem whatsoever with cops in the US is either a very heavy drug user
logically this demographic is more likely to find an issue with cops, not less
my point i guess is that i find your lazy rhetorical techniques distasteful and pointless
Russia has tried hard in recent years to tug Europe to its side, bankrolling the continent’s extremist political parties, working to fuel a backlash against migrants and using its vast energy resources as a cudgel against its neighbors. Two-and-a-half years into the Ukraine crisis, Obama administration officials say that the Kremlin may now be engaging in similar trickery in the U.S. presidential campaign in an effort to boost Russia-friendly Republican nominee Donald Trump.
The alleged effort would be an unusually blunt challenge to the U.S. political system, but one familiar to Europe, where officials and analysts see Russian fingerprints on a wide spectrum of initiatives designed to split Western unity and encourage acceptance of Kremlin policies. European leaders say Russia has been involved in such actions as an April referendum in the Netherlands that rejected a European Union trade deal with Ukraine and the strengthening of cross-border bonds among Euroskeptic parties.
EPT
