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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
July 25 2016 15:06 GMT
#88741
On July 26 2016 00:04 Doodsmack wrote:
Bernie supporters would still be insane to vote for Trump and I think they probably know that.

Some do, Those that don't were clearly not in it for Bernie's platform and just want to shake their first at 'the system'.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
TMagpie
Profile Joined June 2015
265 Posts
July 25 2016 15:06 GMT
#88742
On July 26 2016 00:01 pmh wrote:
The more I think about it,the more I think that tim kaine is a bad pick.
Its the safe pick,the pick you make when you are sure that you are going to win the election. Clinton still does not see the real danger of the republican ticket.
And like others have said,this election is anything but your ordinary election. A "safe" and conservative ticket wont win you the election in November. The polarization in the country has gone to far for that.
Think Clinton should have gone all in on warren,hammering the supposed weak spot trump has with women. Clinton herself is unable to do so because she got to much dirt hanging around her,warren would be perfect.
Maybe tim kaine will surprise us positively but don't have high hopes for that.

The democrats gloating about the supposed chaotic state of the republican party a few months ago can now start reflecting on the state their own party is in. Trump is sitting and watching it fall apart,doesnt have to do anything.
Will the democratic convention be able to unify behind Clinton? it seems more doubtfull with every passing day.
But they don't have a choice, it now is Clinton or bust.


Clinton is only behind in one voting block--white males. So far, white males only want old white guys who yell a lot. She just needs a white guy who won't scare off her core supporters.
tenacity
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
1587 Posts
July 25 2016 15:07 GMT
#88743
On July 26 2016 00:04 Doodsmack wrote:
Bernie supporters would still be insane to vote for Trump and I think they probably know that.


maybe they will vote Green and, thus, making Trump's victory even more likely.
It does not need to be fun to be fun.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 25 2016 15:08 GMT
#88744
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/debbie-wasserman-schultz-dnc-226100

PHILADELPHIA — Hillary Clinton and her team aren’t thrilled that the head of the Democratic National Committee was forced out on the eve of the nominee’s coronation — but they aren’t exactly distraught to see Debbie Wasserman Schultz booted from the tent.
Several senior Democratic officials with ties to Hillary and Bill Clinton told POLITICO that campaign higher-ups have been trying to replace the oft-off-message Florida congresswoman from the start of Clinton’s campaign late last year.
Story Continued Below

John Podesta, Clinton’s campaign chairman — and a former top adviser to Barack Obama — broached the idea of replacing Wasserman Schultz as early as last fall, only to be rebuffed by the president’s team, according to two people with direct knowledge of the conversation.
“It came down to the fact that the president didn’t want the hassle of getting rid of Debbie,” said a former top Obama adviser. “It’s been a huge problem for the Clintons, but the president just didn’t want the headache of Debbie bad-mouthing him. ... It was a huge pain in the ass.”

The Obama team — especially 2012 campaign manager Jim Messina — long viewed Wasserman Schultz as a major campaign liability, questioning her fundraising prowess and her tendency to appoint personal aides to positions of authority, prioritizing loyalty over competence and effectiveness as a spokesperson for Democrats. At the time, senior campaign officials leaked details of an internal survey, conducted by pollster David Binder, showing Wasserman Schultz was the least-liked Obama surrogate; she later dismissed the report as “National Enquirer” dross.

After Obama’s 2012 victory, Messina and longtime political adviser Patrick Gaspard, who worked under Wasserman Schultz at the DNC, pressed the president to push her out, advising that he tap former Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak as her replacement. Obama — who cared little for the party machinations — figured the move would be more trouble than it was worth and told his aides that he was OK having Wasserman Schultz serve as chairwoman until he left office. “It’s embarrassing that Obama left the problem for Hillary,” one former West Wing adviser told POLITICO.

Yet the aggregated animosity toward her led to a swift and brutal conclusion to her five-plus year tenure at the helm of the president’s party. Wasserman Schultz resigned less than 24 hours after WikiLeaks posted dozens of emails showing her staff working to undermine the insurgent campaign of Bernie Sanders in order to aid a Clinton organization they often derided as inept and timid.

“I know that electing Hillary Clinton as our next president is critical for America’s future,” Wasserman Schultz said in a statement issued after a day of back-and-forth with top Democratic officials urging her to step down for the sake of party unity ahead of Clinton's big week. “I look forward to serving as a surrogate for her campaign in Florida and across the country to ensure her victory. ... Going forward, the best way for me to accomplish those goals is to step down as party chair at the end of this convention.”

The move had to happen on Sunday, said a senior Democrat: Sanders-supporting delegates — without the buy-in of his campaign — had been organizing an effort over the preceding day to have state delegations vote to demand her resignation at the Monday morning caucus breakfasts. Given the number of delegations in which Sanders supporters are the majority, the movement would likely have spread, overtaking any other news on the convention’s opening day.
Clinton campaign officials declined numerous attempts by phone, email and text to respond to this story.

But the Clinton campaign was very much involved in the DNC chair’s defenestration. Earlier in the day Sunday, Sanders had again suggested that Wasserman Schultz should resign — and DNC officials announced she would be replaced as convention chair by Ohio Rep. Marcia Fudge, an influential member of the Congressional Black Caucus. By sundown — after intense negotiations with senior Clinton campaign officials — the committee tapped longtime Clinton aide, TV surrogate and party vice-chair Donna Brazile as interim chairwoman.

It was an embarrassing episode — and a sign of discord that Republicans, fresh off their own fractious convention pounced on. “I know firsthand how hard it is being the chair of a national party, but when you rig a system and spread emails around with each other and senior staff in that matter, this outcome is inevitable,” said Reince Priebus, chairman of the Republican National Committee, during a news conference here on Sunday, barely suppressing his glee. “Obviously, the end has come and I don’t think there was any other outcome that was foreseeable. These events show what an uphill climb the Democrats were facing in unifying their party."


Apparently Clinton and Obama have been trying to remove her for a while now. I am amazed someone so disliked hung on for so long.


I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 25 2016 15:11 GMT
#88745
On July 25 2016 23:56 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2016 23:10 ticklishmusic wrote:
On July 25 2016 22:53 xDaunt wrote:
On July 25 2016 22:27 ticklishmusic wrote:
On July 25 2016 19:43 TMagpie wrote:
So the big story is that the guy not liked by fellow democrats was not actually liked by fellow democrats and the person suspected of wanting to help Hilary get into office now works directly with Hilary to get her into office?

That's the big story?


Pretty much. I am still waiting for actual evidence of bias in actual conduct of business, though people would rather be condescending and outraged about it. Pretty much par for the course.

Worth adding, Eva Longoria was Obama's 2012 honorary chair. The position pays zero dollars. It sounds like a lot more than it actually is, though I expect the Clinton campaign to make DWS useful in some way. She's a useful idiot, hopefully she starts being the useful part ore than the idiot part.


It's not the direct compensation of the position that matters. It's the connections that the position affords that matter. This is why appointments to the boards of federal commissions are so sought after. This is also why the DNC is now going to get into trouble for awarding these positions to donors (not that we ever expected that anything else was happening on either side of the aisle).


The actual email says:
Any folks who you’d like to be considered to be on the board of (for example) USPS, NEA, NEH. Basically anyone who has a niche interest and might like to serve on the board of one of these orgs.


It seems like they're reaching into their network for people who might be good fits for these positions? Perish the thought. If I happen to know someone who I had a good working relationship with and there was a position I knew about where they'd be a good fit, I might recommend them. These folks donated, yes, but most of them are going to pretty qualified for these positions. There's going to be some more egregious cases of nepotism, and that's wrong. However, it's a fact of life. Relationships are important, though they shouldn't be all the end all be all.

For example, I work 60 hours a week (I love my job, usually) and I do a pretty solid job, paid pretty decently as well. As part of my responsibilities, I have access to all the salaries of our employees, or a pretty good estimate. We have a guy who graduated last year with a degree in politics, his dad happens to be in the C-suite. Although he's not particularly qualified, he's a "project manager" and makes a decent bit more than me. He's in the office less than 40 hrs a week, and I'm not exactly sure what project he manages. Does it suck? Yes. But I understand why that's a thing though I wish it weren't.

You work too much buddy.


Hours for entry level business analysts are long, so while it's more than average it's not totally unusual. I have friends in investment banking that put in even more hours. It's what you have to do to climb the ladder.

I like my job a lot though. My current project closes in the next couple weeks so I can take a break too.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
July 25 2016 15:18 GMT
#88746
On July 26 2016 00:08 Plansix wrote:
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/debbie-wasserman-schultz-dnc-226100

Show nested quote +
PHILADELPHIA — Hillary Clinton and her team aren’t thrilled that the head of the Democratic National Committee was forced out on the eve of the nominee’s coronation — but they aren’t exactly distraught to see Debbie Wasserman Schultz booted from the tent.
Several senior Democratic officials with ties to Hillary and Bill Clinton told POLITICO that campaign higher-ups have been trying to replace the oft-off-message Florida congresswoman from the start of Clinton’s campaign late last year.
Story Continued Below

John Podesta, Clinton’s campaign chairman — and a former top adviser to Barack Obama — broached the idea of replacing Wasserman Schultz as early as last fall, only to be rebuffed by the president’s team, according to two people with direct knowledge of the conversation.
“It came down to the fact that the president didn’t want the hassle of getting rid of Debbie,” said a former top Obama adviser. “It’s been a huge problem for the Clintons, but the president just didn’t want the headache of Debbie bad-mouthing him. ... It was a huge pain in the ass.”

The Obama team — especially 2012 campaign manager Jim Messina — long viewed Wasserman Schultz as a major campaign liability, questioning her fundraising prowess and her tendency to appoint personal aides to positions of authority, prioritizing loyalty over competence and effectiveness as a spokesperson for Democrats. At the time, senior campaign officials leaked details of an internal survey, conducted by pollster David Binder, showing Wasserman Schultz was the least-liked Obama surrogate; she later dismissed the report as “National Enquirer” dross.

After Obama’s 2012 victory, Messina and longtime political adviser Patrick Gaspard, who worked under Wasserman Schultz at the DNC, pressed the president to push her out, advising that he tap former Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak as her replacement. Obama — who cared little for the party machinations — figured the move would be more trouble than it was worth and told his aides that he was OK having Wasserman Schultz serve as chairwoman until he left office. “It’s embarrassing that Obama left the problem for Hillary,” one former West Wing adviser told POLITICO.

Yet the aggregated animosity toward her led to a swift and brutal conclusion to her five-plus year tenure at the helm of the president’s party. Wasserman Schultz resigned less than 24 hours after WikiLeaks posted dozens of emails showing her staff working to undermine the insurgent campaign of Bernie Sanders in order to aid a Clinton organization they often derided as inept and timid.

“I know that electing Hillary Clinton as our next president is critical for America’s future,” Wasserman Schultz said in a statement issued after a day of back-and-forth with top Democratic officials urging her to step down for the sake of party unity ahead of Clinton's big week. “I look forward to serving as a surrogate for her campaign in Florida and across the country to ensure her victory. ... Going forward, the best way for me to accomplish those goals is to step down as party chair at the end of this convention.”

The move had to happen on Sunday, said a senior Democrat: Sanders-supporting delegates — without the buy-in of his campaign — had been organizing an effort over the preceding day to have state delegations vote to demand her resignation at the Monday morning caucus breakfasts. Given the number of delegations in which Sanders supporters are the majority, the movement would likely have spread, overtaking any other news on the convention’s opening day.
Clinton campaign officials declined numerous attempts by phone, email and text to respond to this story.

But the Clinton campaign was very much involved in the DNC chair’s defenestration. Earlier in the day Sunday, Sanders had again suggested that Wasserman Schultz should resign — and DNC officials announced she would be replaced as convention chair by Ohio Rep. Marcia Fudge, an influential member of the Congressional Black Caucus. By sundown — after intense negotiations with senior Clinton campaign officials — the committee tapped longtime Clinton aide, TV surrogate and party vice-chair Donna Brazile as interim chairwoman.

It was an embarrassing episode — and a sign of discord that Republicans, fresh off their own fractious convention pounced on. “I know firsthand how hard it is being the chair of a national party, but when you rig a system and spread emails around with each other and senior staff in that matter, this outcome is inevitable,” said Reince Priebus, chairman of the Republican National Committee, during a news conference here on Sunday, barely suppressing his glee. “Obviously, the end has come and I don’t think there was any other outcome that was foreseeable. These events show what an uphill climb the Democrats were facing in unifying their party."


Apparently Clinton and Obama have been trying to remove her for a while now. I am amazed someone so disliked hung on for so long.




Fascinating and supports a lot of what I was thinking. Looks like Debbie's got some bite and whoever was gonna take her out was bound to take some damage along the way. It seems Clinton had to be the one to drop the axe, but she also had to give DWS a position in the campaign. Debbie, what is your secret!?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 25 2016 15:22 GMT
#88747
I was in awe when she pushed back against laws regulated pay day lenders and I couldn’t understand why she was still head of the DNC. Then I remembered that people only really care about the DNC once every 2 years. But removing her ends any power her goons had and hopefully they clean house.

Frankly, I am surprised that Obama didn’t make that his mission in his last year. He has gone into full “I give no fucks” mode and that is the time you go nuts on the garbage people in your own party.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
July 25 2016 15:43 GMT
#88748
On July 26 2016 00:22 Plansix wrote:
I was in awe when she pushed back against laws regulated pay day lenders and I couldn’t understand why she was still head of the DNC. Then I remembered that people only really care about the DNC once every 2 years. But removing her ends any power her goons had and hopefully they clean house.

Frankly, I am surprised that Obama didn’t make that his mission in his last year. He has gone into full “I give no fucks” mode and that is the time you go nuts on the garbage people in your own party.


I think Obama has had one final action he intends to do this year and he felt he needed DWS to get it done. Or at least getting it done in the midst of her removal would have been difficult. In that regard, it looks like he bit off more than he could chew and now we've got this mess. You could argue DWS represents a major failure by Obama.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 25 2016 15:46 GMT
#88749
On July 26 2016 00:43 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2016 00:22 Plansix wrote:
I was in awe when she pushed back against laws regulated pay day lenders and I couldn’t understand why she was still head of the DNC. Then I remembered that people only really care about the DNC once every 2 years. But removing her ends any power her goons had and hopefully they clean house.

Frankly, I am surprised that Obama didn’t make that his mission in his last year. He has gone into full “I give no fucks” mode and that is the time you go nuts on the garbage people in your own party.


I think Obama has had one final action he intends to do this year and he felt he needed DWS to get it done. Or at least getting it done in the midst of her removal would have been difficult. In that regard, it looks like he bit off more than he could chew and now we've got this mess. You could argue DWS represents a major failure by Obama.

Or maybe it is too much for a lame duck president to remove her. He might not have had enough pull. But the fact that she has been in charge for so long, including when the democrats got stomped in the house, impresses me. Also deeply troubles me.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12619 Posts
July 25 2016 15:47 GMT
#88750
On July 26 2016 00:07 tenacity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2016 00:04 Doodsmack wrote:
Bernie supporters would still be insane to vote for Trump and I think they probably know that.


maybe they will vote Green and, thus, making Trump's victory even more likely.


That depends on Johnson a lot.
No will to live, no wish to die
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-25 15:54:44
July 25 2016 15:54 GMT
#88751
On July 26 2016 00:47 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2016 00:07 tenacity wrote:
On July 26 2016 00:04 Doodsmack wrote:
Bernie supporters would still be insane to vote for Trump and I think they probably know that.


maybe they will vote Green and, thus, making Trump's victory even more likely.


That depends on Johnson a lot.


I think Johnson has the potential to give Utah to Clinton. Or, more correctly stated, Romney can give Utah to Clinton. That could be huge and basically just means she only needs 1 contentious state to seal the deal.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
July 25 2016 15:56 GMT
#88752
It's amusing to me how irrelevant the popular vote is. Most of America might as well stay at home on election day, the election is decided by a few key states.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
July 25 2016 16:00 GMT
#88753
On July 26 2016 00:56 KwarK wrote:
It's amusing to me how irrelevant the popular vote is. Most of America might as well stay at home on election day, the election is decided by a few key states.


Yup, and the options for trump are still very limited compared to Clinton. Florida is essential for Trump and it's really his only way forward.
Question.?
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
July 25 2016 16:00 GMT
#88754
On July 26 2016 00:56 KwarK wrote:
It's amusing to me how irrelevant the popular vote is. Most of America might as well stay at home on election day, the election is decided by a few key states.


But couldn't you say "the popular vote" is what creates this dynamic? The consistent, reliable voting habits of the majority of Americans are what create this situation. They play a role, it's just that they always play the same one.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 25 2016 16:04 GMT
#88755
On July 26 2016 00:56 KwarK wrote:
It's amusing to me how irrelevant the popular vote is. Most of America might as well stay at home on election day, the election is decided by a few key states.

It is rare for the president to not get the popular vote and still win. It happens, but it is not common. And we never claimed to create a perfect union, only that we would work toward it. Popular vote would have its own set of amazing, terrible flaws.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
July 25 2016 16:09 GMT
#88756
Something something brexit.
Yargh
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
July 25 2016 16:14 GMT
#88757
On July 26 2016 01:00 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2016 00:56 KwarK wrote:
It's amusing to me how irrelevant the popular vote is. Most of America might as well stay at home on election day, the election is decided by a few key states.


But couldn't you say "the popular vote" is what creates this dynamic? The consistent, reliable voting habits of the majority of Americans are what create this situation. They play a role, it's just that they always play the same one.

No, the electoral college is what creates this dynamic. The popular vote means that a vote is a vote, a predictable vote is worth as much as a swing vote, you just want more of them. This situation means that gaining votes only matters if you gain them in the right places, otherwise you're not changing shit.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-25 16:25:53
July 25 2016 16:21 GMT
#88758
Can some one explain to me why I should care about the general election? I'm an undecided moderate and I fail to see how my life has changed in the last 12 years regardless of who has been president.

I only closely follow/vote religiously for state/local government because that has a real effect on my life.

Anyone willing to tackle this?



edit - also my state has been a landslide democratic state since ive been born so voting is quite futile here regardless of affiliation.
I come in for the scraps
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 25 2016 16:27 GMT
#88759
On July 26 2016 00:04 Doodsmack wrote:
Bernie supporters would still be insane to vote for Trump and I think they probably know that.

Depends on the reason. If your primary reasons for supporting Bernie were his social programs and views on social issues, then sure, Hillary is the better choice. If you support him for trade agreements and FP, then Hillary is the polar opposite and Trump is the better choice.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
July 25 2016 16:31 GMT
#88760
On July 26 2016 01:21 VayneAuthority wrote:
Can some one explain to me why I should care about the general election? I'm an undecided moderate and I fail to see how my life has changed in the last 12 years regardless of who has been president.

I only closely follow/vote religiously for state/local government because that has a real effect on my life.

Anyone willing to tackle this?

This election is a pretty big one for that outlook. On the one side you have Clinton with the tagline of "basically more of the same, if you think America is pretty great then good for you, 4 more years of great". On the other you have Trump with "everything sucks and I will dramatically change everything and it'll be amazing, if you think America should be great again then vote for me".

Trump is attacking the trade agreements that put cheap goods, food, clothes and so forth in stores, the stable postwar international peace dominated by American strength and NATO, the agreements that keep us out of Iran, the good relations with our southern neighbor and pretty much everything else about the status quo. Whether or not you agree with Trump you have to acknowledge that he has very big plans on pretty much every subject. Even on things that aren't even a part of the political discussion like the 14th Amendment which nobody thought would be an election issue until Trump mentioned in passing that he wanted to dispose of it.

So if you don't really care, Clinton. If you want everything to change then Trump. But unless you live in one of the key battleground states then you might as well stay home either way.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
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