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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 12 2013 04:24 GMT
#8501
I'm the communist around here rememebr? Why are you telling this to me? Impose a wealth tax and nationalize the shale oil, if we must dig it up which it seems we must
shikata ga nai
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
September 12 2013 04:26 GMT
#8502
On September 12 2013 13:24 sam!zdat wrote:
I'm the communist around here rememebr? Why are you telling this to me? Impose a wealth tax and nationalize the shale oil, if we must dig it up which it seems we must

I am a commie too, but come on man, at least try to make a better effort to respond to DoubleReed :/
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-12 04:29:26
September 12 2013 04:28 GMT
#8503
I am. I'm suggesting how we can stimulate the economy without this ludicrous QE farce and pay for the government spending he wants.

nationalize the damn banks while we're at it, we paid for them why don't we own them
shikata ga nai
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 12 2013 04:32 GMT
#8504
You can't just keep injecting money to keep up with runaway debt accumulation. There is no infinite growth cure. The system is fucked.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 12 2013 04:33 GMT
#8505
On September 12 2013 13:24 sam!zdat wrote:
I'm the communist around here rememebr? Why are you telling this to me? Impose a wealth tax and nationalize the shale oil, if we must dig it up which it seems we must



Shale oil is a farce. A temporary bubble at best.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 12 2013 04:45 GMT
#8506
igne I know. I'm trying to be 'reasonable' and suggest 'pragmatic ideas.' it's just sort of a phase I'm going through.

another idea: lets turn the fucking nsa surveillance apparatus on the american government instead of the american people. Put a 24/7 webcam in the office of every senator, tap their lines, and have a guy follow them around with a microphone. That's like what they did to the emperor in japan and it was a fine fucking idea.
shikata ga nai
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
September 12 2013 04:50 GMT
#8507
On September 12 2013 13:32 IgnE wrote:
You can't just keep injecting money to keep up with runaway debt accumulation. There is no infinite growth cure. The system is fucked.

O RLY? -- Japan.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 12 2013 04:52 GMT
#8508
I mean... really if this doesn't get people in this country get the fuck up and do something then we deserve to live in a Police State.

Marissa Mayer, the CEO of Yahoo, and Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook struck back on Wednesday at critics who have charged tech companies with doing too little to fight off NSA surveillance. Mayer said executives faced jail if they revealed government secrets.

Yahoo and Facebook, along with other tech firms, are pushing for the right to be allowed to publish the number of requests they receive from the spy agency. Companies are forbidden by law to disclose how much data they provide.

During an interview at the Techcrunch Disrupt conference in San Francisco, Mayer was asked why tech companies had not simply decided to tell the public more about what the US surveillance industry was up to. "Releasing classified information is treason and you are incarcerated," she said.

Mayer said she was "proud to be part of an organisation that from the beginning, in 2007, has been sceptical of – and has been scrutinizing – those requests [from the NSA]."

Yahoo has previously unsuccessfully sued the foreign intelligence surveillance (Fisa) court, which provides the legal framework for NSA surveillance. In 2007 it asked to be allowed to publish details of requests it receives from the spy agency. "When you lose and you don't comply, it's treason," said Mayer. "We think it make more sense to work within the system," she said.

Zuckerberg said the government had done a "bad job" of balancing people's privacy and its duty to protect. "Frankly I think the government blew it," he said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 12 2013 04:53 GMT
#8509
Here's a pragmatic idea. Stop subsidizing fossil fuels now. Start subsidizing solar, wind, and battery technologies.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 12 2013 04:54 GMT
#8510
they used to have this elaborate set of rituals where the emperor had no privacy. Because the emperor was (theoretically) the most powerful person (sort of the focal point of a power hierarchy) he also had to be at the focal point of a system of surveillance.

can't trust the fuckers who have the power. Ever ever ever. Lets spy the fuck out them. They do it to us, why the fuck isn't it the other way around?
shikata ga nai
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 12 2013 04:58 GMT
#8511
On September 12 2013 13:33 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2013 13:24 sam!zdat wrote:
I'm the communist around here rememebr? Why are you telling this to me? Impose a wealth tax and nationalize the shale oil, if we must dig it up which it seems we must



Shale oil is a farce. A temporary bubble at best.

Uh, what? For all intents and purposes, there's virtually an unlimited amount of shale oil and gas in the US (like 200+ years worth for domestic consumption). As long as the price of oil stays above $70 per barrel (very likely), shale oil is here to stay until new energy technology replaces it. Last I checked, that technology doesn't exist yet.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 12 2013 04:59 GMT
#8512
On September 12 2013 13:53 IgnE wrote:
Here's a pragmatic idea. Stop subsidizing fossil fuels now. Start subsidizing solar, wind, and battery technologies.

How many more Solyndras do we need? I've lost count of how many of those companies have gone bankrupt already.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 12 2013 05:02 GMT
#8513
still stop subsidizing fossil fuel
shikata ga nai
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
September 12 2013 05:04 GMT
#8514
The whole NSA thing and the overall response by the population reminds me of this blog post a little bit. Of course the cultural differences are obvious.
http://radicalcompounds.wordpress.com/2012/04/11/bystander-apathy-in-china-part-4/

Small excerpt
In short, I believe that for democracy to work there needs to be a certain level of personal responsibility. For people to get what they want means that they have to think clearly about what they want and do research in order to make an informed decision. This is not only the case with political voting, but also in arranged vs. self-selected marriages, getting slotted into a university based on your grade vs. applying for universities yourself, etc. I don’t think Chinese people are ready for a democracy because I don’t think that most of the population wants to take this kind of personal responsibility and do the necessary work. I am definitely not saying that this is an innate quality of Chinese people as a race or anything like that – factors that create this kind of laxity might include having too much pressure heaped on young people growing up due to the competitive nature of university entrance exams, and so they have learned to take breaks and cut corners when they can instead of being proactive and seeking more work to do. If there was suddenly a multi-party system in China and people over 18 were suddenly asked to vote, most people wouldn’t know what to do or care enough to do the work of choosing whom they support. ***** Last year, when a professor from Australia visited the college I was working at, the Foreign Affairs staff took this teacher, me, and the only other foreign teacher out to dinner. I don’t even remember what we were talking about before, but at some point the head foreign affairs staff said to the Australian teacher, “Chinese people don’t really want democracy, you know.” There was a slightly awkward pause after this, where I made a face and stopped eating, and then the other foreign teacher quickly stepped in to say that yes, China seems really capitalist now, and everyone hurriedly started talking about earning money instead.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-12 05:19:48
September 12 2013 05:12 GMT
#8515
On September 12 2013 13:58 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2013 13:33 IgnE wrote:
On September 12 2013 13:24 sam!zdat wrote:
I'm the communist around here rememebr? Why are you telling this to me? Impose a wealth tax and nationalize the shale oil, if we must dig it up which it seems we must



Shale oil is a farce. A temporary bubble at best.

Uh, what? For all intents and purposes, there's virtually an unlimited amount of shale oil and gas in the US (like 200+ years worth for domestic consumption). As long as the price of oil stays above $70 per barrel (very likely), shale oil is here to stay until new energy technology replaces it. Last I checked, that technology doesn't exist yet.



The only reason shale production is booming right now is because it's massively subsidized by wall street. Of course wall street and the media want you to think that there's an unlimited amount of shale oil and gas in the US. They are heavily invested in it.

Shale wells lose something like 90% of their capacity with a couple years. Thousands of new wells have to be drilled every year just to continue current production at a current cost of $42 billion a year, just in well drilling, and all subsidized. An extra snag is that quality oil "plays" are pretty rare, and most of the currently known quality oil plays are already being drilled, with rapid rates of depletion.

Not to mention that shale gas is extremely low EROI (energy return on investment). It's not like oil, which is basically liquid gold, since it costs so little in energy resources to get it out of the ground (i.e. oil spouts that you see in movies like _There Will Be Blood_ where oil literally shoots out of the ground). When you are spending a lot of energy to get a diminishing return back, you can't sustain production.

On top of all of that, the companies that are pulling up shale gas privatize the profits while distributing the costs of production, including environmental damage, to the rest of society. It's a temporary bubble at best, as you will see over the next decade.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 12 2013 05:15 GMT
#8516
On September 12 2013 13:59 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2013 13:53 IgnE wrote:
Here's a pragmatic idea. Stop subsidizing fossil fuels now. Start subsidizing solar, wind, and battery technologies.

How many more Solyndras do we need? I've lost count of how many of those companies have gone bankrupt already.


Maybe they would be able to compete if they had the kind of subsidies and political capital that the oil industry has been relying upon for a century. Do you just not believe that solar power will ever be viable or are you so blind that you think "the market" will figure it out if it's meant to be?
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 12 2013 05:39 GMT
#8517
On September 12 2013 14:12 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2013 13:58 xDaunt wrote:
On September 12 2013 13:33 IgnE wrote:
On September 12 2013 13:24 sam!zdat wrote:
I'm the communist around here rememebr? Why are you telling this to me? Impose a wealth tax and nationalize the shale oil, if we must dig it up which it seems we must



Shale oil is a farce. A temporary bubble at best.

Uh, what? For all intents and purposes, there's virtually an unlimited amount of shale oil and gas in the US (like 200+ years worth for domestic consumption). As long as the price of oil stays above $70 per barrel (very likely), shale oil is here to stay until new energy technology replaces it. Last I checked, that technology doesn't exist yet.



The only reason shale production is booming right now is because it's massively subsidized by wall street. Of course wall street and the media want you to think that there's an unlimited amount of shale oil and gas in the US. They are heavily invested in it.

Shale wells lose something like 90% of their capacity with a couple years. Thousands of new wells have to be drilled every year just to continue current production at a current cost of $42 billion a year, just in well drilling, and all subsidized. An extra snag is that quality oil "plays" are pretty rare, and most of the currently known quality oil plays are already being drilled, with rapid rates of depletion.

Not to mention that shale gas is extremely low EROI (energy return on investment). It's not like oil, which is basically liquid gold, since it costs so little in energy resources to get it out of the ground (i.e. oil spouts that you see in movies like _There Will Be Blood_ where oil literally shoots out of the ground). When you are spending a lot of energy to get a diminishing return back, you can't sustain production.

On top of all of that, the companies that are pulling up shale gas privatize the profits while distributing the costs of production, including environmental damage, to the rest of society. It's a temporary bubble at best, as you will see over the next decade.

All oil wells face production declines as time goes on. Solar panel output declines over time too. Really all capital goods deteriorate over time. It's not a big deal. Math can handle it.

I don't know what you mean by "subsidized by wall st". Direct government subsidies are relatively small (compared to clean energy subsidies). Pollution can be viewed as a subsidy of sorts, though I'm not sure how much internalizing those costs would amount to compared to what current subsidies and regulations already achieve.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 12 2013 05:44 GMT
#8518
'math can handle it.' official motto of jonny b's psychohistorical society
shikata ga nai
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 12 2013 05:47 GMT
#8519
On September 12 2013 11:53 sam!zdat wrote:
are you serious? You think you can just print money infinitely and everything will be okay? We have no exit strategy for QE and it's not doing anything except paying banks to hold cash and inflating equity values. It's a hostage situation basically

I love how people have been convinced that monetary policy doesn't matter and anyone who thinks it does is a crazy person

To the best of my knowledge...

The central bank has been adding to the money supply but the private sector has been subtracting from it. On net we haven't been 'printing' much money.

It's possible that the private sector will create more money going forward, which, combined with past and current money creation by the Fed would flood the system with money. That could be a problem. So far it hasn't happened.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 12 2013 05:52 GMT
#8520
On September 12 2013 14:44 sam!zdat wrote:
'math can handle it.' official motto of jonny b's psychohistorical society

Yes, math. I know it's scary at first, but numbers can be your friend
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