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On July 11 2016 04:54 Chewbacca. wrote:
Not really knowing much about the case, and just going off the article Plansix just posted, what does it matter if he owned the gun legally or illegaly? Having a weapon illegally isn't a reason to shoot a person, especially if he actually told the cop several times that he was carrying and was reaching for his license as required.
The legality of the gun is not as important in this specific shooting imo. The end result is that the victim told the officer he had a weapon, and then reached into his pocket. This is either a failure of the police officer to not properly instruct Castille on what to do, OR he was instructed by the officer to not reach anywhere and he did it anyways. The alternative I see is for the officer to back off and call for backup once he saw suspicious movement by Castille, but it is a tough decision to make in the heat of the moment.
The Alton sterling case on the other hand, I can't find any reasonable explanation for.
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On July 11 2016 04:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 04:47 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 04:44 Plansix wrote:On July 11 2016 04:38 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 04:35 Plansix wrote:On July 11 2016 04:28 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 04:24 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On July 11 2016 04:18 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 04:15 Gorsameth wrote:On July 11 2016 04:11 Cowboy24 wrote:
Has it been proven that Castile had a valid permit? The media is reporting "sources" for both sides, but I would think if the permit existed, his girlfriend would just produce it.
More and more, it looks like Castile went for the gun. A guy with his wife and child in the car tells an officer he has a gun in his pocket with his driver license. In what world is this guy looking to kill a cop in front of his family and not simply trying to produce his driver license as asked for? We have no proof (or evidence) that he told the cop any such thing. If it was an illegal gun and he had a criminal record (neither of which has been proven or disproven) than it would definitely make sense for why he might go for the gun, especially if he was the armed robbery suspect (again, neither proven nor disproven). Yes, someone who had been pulled over about 84 times is definitely going to snap this one time with his family in the car. Those were by the way just helping him with the armed robbery he did. The kid was waiting in the car ready to drive them away (without a driver's license mind you) while the girlfriend was running around naked to draw the attention. (again, neither proven nor disproven) We know very little about this case, but I have yet to see proof (or evidence) of anything Castile's girlfriend claimed. However, the media is reporting these things as if they are fact, so I was wondering if this was all assumption because "cops are racist bad people!" or if there was actually any indication the cop was lying. On July 11 2016 04:25 Gorsameth wrote:On July 11 2016 04:18 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 04:15 Gorsameth wrote:On July 11 2016 04:11 Cowboy24 wrote:
Has it been proven that Castile had a valid permit? The media is reporting "sources" for both sides, but I would think if the permit existed, his girlfriend would just produce it.
More and more, it looks like Castile went for the gun. A guy with his wife and child in the car tells an officer he has a gun in his pocket with his driver license. In what world is this guy looking to kill a cop in front of his family and not simply trying to produce his driver license as asked for? We have no proof (or evidence) that he told the cop any such thing. If it was an illegal gun and he had a criminal record (neither of which has been proven or disproven) than it would definitely make sense for why he might go for the gun, especially if he was the armed robbery suspect (again, neither proven nor disproven). Now who is making assumptions lol Either way it doesn't matter to me. Police shouldn't be killing people in the first place. I am not making assumptions, I am trying to find out if there is any proof or evidence of what BLM is saying, or if it's all just inference and assumption. If Castile was going for the gun, then he should have been killed. He had a license to carry the gun. http://www.startribune.com/philando-castile-had-permit-to-carry-gun/386054481/Philando Castile, 32, a school cook from St. Paul, was killed by a St. Anthony police officer during a traffic stop in Falcon Heights Wednesday night.
Philando Castile had a valid permit to carry a gun when he was shot and killed by a St. Anthony police officer, a source confirmed to the Star Tribune Friday.
Castile, a 32-year-old school cook from St. Paul, was killed by a St. Anthony police officer during a traffic stop in Falcon Heights Wednesday night. His final minutes were live-streamed by his girlfriend, Diamond Reynolds, who was a passenger in the car.
In the video, Reynolds said Castile told the officer, Jeronimo Yanez, that he had a permit and was carrying a gun. Yanez shot Castile multiple times.
“He’s licensed to carry, he was trying to get his ID, his wallet out of his pocket and he let the officer knew he had a firearm and was reaching for his wallet,” Reynolds said in the video as a bloodied Castile lay in the driver’s seat dying.
Although the names of gun permit holders are not public under state law, a source confirmed Castile was issued the permit when he lived in Robbinsdale.
Yanez and his partner that night, Joseph Kauser, are on paid administrative leave. On Friday the Falcon Heights City Council, which contracts with the St. Anthony police department, hired a public relations consultant in the wake of the shooting.
Yanez has been with the St. Anthony police department since 2011. Gov. Mark Dayton has asked the state Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and federal authorities to investigate Castile’s death. I have heard nothing from any creditable source that said he was pulled over for anything about a busted tail light. An anonymous source says he has a gun, and I've only seen 1 or 2 other media outlets (Daily News and Slate) pick up on this "proof". I was wondering if we had public confirmation by the family (who would have the permit, if it exists) or by the government (who will hopefully release said information after they decide to press charges or not). I would think proving the gun was legal would be the kicker here. If it was a legal gun, it adds weight to Castile's case. If it was an illegal gun, it destroys his case. I have seen no evidence to contradict source I just cited, or anything to suggest the gun was owned illegally. You are the first person I have encountered that is putting forth this theory. I've seen no evidence the gun was owned legally. This article and this unnamed source are the only "evidence" I've seen. Plenty of people are putting forth the questions I am. I also have been asking questions, like if the officer was intoxicated or high on drugs on the job. I have seen no evidence or information that would lead me to believe he is sober.
There is no equivalence here, but I guarantee you the officer was drug-tested so we will know very soon one way or the other. Probably true with the gun too. We will eventually find out, I just have the feeling if it was legal, the family would have produced the permit.
On July 11 2016 04:54 Chewbacca. wrote:
Not really knowing much about the case, and just going off the article Plansix just posted, what does it matter if he owned the gun legally or illegaly? Having a weapon illegally isn't a reason to shoot a person, especially if he actually told the cop several times that he was carrying and was reaching for his license as required.
If he owned the gun illegally, it becomes much more unlikely that he told the officer he had the gun, and it becomes much more likely that he was not reaching for an ID at all, but reaching for the gun.
Obviously it would not be proof that he was intending to kill the cop, but it would be very effective evidence in the favor of Yanez. It would almost certainly be enough to get him off.
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On July 11 2016 05:02 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 04:54 Chewbacca. wrote:
Not really knowing much about the case, and just going off the article Plansix just posted, what does it matter if he owned the gun legally or illegaly? Having a weapon illegally isn't a reason to shoot a person, especially if he actually told the cop several times that he was carrying and was reaching for his license as required.
The legality of the gun is not as important in this specific shooting imo. The end result is that the victim told the officer he had a weapon, and then reached into his pocket. This is either a failure of the police officer to not properly instruct Castille on what to do, OR he was instructed by the officer to not reach anywhere and he did it anyways. The alternative I see is for the officer to back off and call for backup once he saw suspicious movement by Castille, but it is a tough decision to make in the heat of the moment. The Alton sterling case on the other hand, I can't find any reasonable explanation for.
Once again, we have no proof or evidence that Castile told the cop any such thing.
Alton Sterling also had a gun (confirmed illegal) and was actively reaching for the gun when the cops shot him. That one is open and shut, justified homicide. Guarantee no charges will be filed.
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On July 11 2016 05:07 Cowboy24 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:02 biology]major wrote:On July 11 2016 04:54 Chewbacca. wrote:
Not really knowing much about the case, and just going off the article Plansix just posted, what does it matter if he owned the gun legally or illegaly? Having a weapon illegally isn't a reason to shoot a person, especially if he actually told the cop several times that he was carrying and was reaching for his license as required.
The legality of the gun is not as important in this specific shooting imo. The end result is that the victim told the officer he had a weapon, and then reached into his pocket. This is either a failure of the police officer to not properly instruct Castille on what to do, OR he was instructed by the officer to not reach anywhere and he did it anyways. The alternative I see is for the officer to back off and call for backup once he saw suspicious movement by Castille, but it is a tough decision to make in the heat of the moment. The Alton sterling case on the other hand, I can't find any reasonable explanation for. Once again, we have no proof or evidence that Castile told the cop any such thing. Alton Sterling also had a gun (confirmed illegal) and was actively reaching for the gun when the cops shot him. That one is open and shut, justified homicide. Guarantee no charges will be filed.
No evidence beyond the his girlfriend saying that is what took place. Which is evidence of what took place. If someone chooses not to believe her is another story.
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There is no equivalence here, but I guarantee you the officer was drug-tested so we will know very soon one way or the other.
This is something that indicates to me you are making unfounded assumptions about how these "investigations" work.
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On July 11 2016 05:07 Cowboy24 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:02 biology]major wrote:On July 11 2016 04:54 Chewbacca. wrote:
Not really knowing much about the case, and just going off the article Plansix just posted, what does it matter if he owned the gun legally or illegaly? Having a weapon illegally isn't a reason to shoot a person, especially if he actually told the cop several times that he was carrying and was reaching for his license as required.
The legality of the gun is not as important in this specific shooting imo. The end result is that the victim told the officer he had a weapon, and then reached into his pocket. This is either a failure of the police officer to not properly instruct Castille on what to do, OR he was instructed by the officer to not reach anywhere and he did it anyways. The alternative I see is for the officer to back off and call for backup once he saw suspicious movement by Castille, but it is a tough decision to make in the heat of the moment. The Alton sterling case on the other hand, I can't find any reasonable explanation for. Once again, we have no proof or evidence that Castile told the cop any such thing. Alton Sterling also had a gun (confirmed illegal) and was actively reaching for the gun when the cops shot him. That one is open and shut, justified homicide. Guarantee no charges will be filed.
Again only in America. In every other country he would be alive today.
The guy is on the ground being subdued by 2 officers. There is no way he should ever be able to present a life or death threat to the officers
Again, utterly incompetent police.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Perhaps the whole "no credible witnesses" issue is an argument in favor of bodycams. If nothing else it will definitely streamline the judicial process in cases like this.
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On July 11 2016 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +There is no equivalence here, but I guarantee you the officer was drug-tested so we will know very soon one way or the other. This is something that indicates to me you are making unfounded assumptions about how these "investigations" work.
You are right, I stand corrected.
On July 11 2016 05:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:07 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 05:02 biology]major wrote:On July 11 2016 04:54 Chewbacca. wrote:
Not really knowing much about the case, and just going off the article Plansix just posted, what does it matter if he owned the gun legally or illegaly? Having a weapon illegally isn't a reason to shoot a person, especially if he actually told the cop several times that he was carrying and was reaching for his license as required.
The legality of the gun is not as important in this specific shooting imo. The end result is that the victim told the officer he had a weapon, and then reached into his pocket. This is either a failure of the police officer to not properly instruct Castille on what to do, OR he was instructed by the officer to not reach anywhere and he did it anyways. The alternative I see is for the officer to back off and call for backup once he saw suspicious movement by Castille, but it is a tough decision to make in the heat of the moment. The Alton sterling case on the other hand, I can't find any reasonable explanation for. Once again, we have no proof or evidence that Castile told the cop any such thing. Alton Sterling also had a gun (confirmed illegal) and was actively reaching for the gun when the cops shot him. That one is open and shut, justified homicide. Guarantee no charges will be filed. No evidence beyond the his girlfriend saying that is what took place. Which is evidence of what took place. If someone chooses not to believe her is another story.
Indeed. However, eye-witness testimony is incredibly untrustworthy ("hands up, don't shoot" being a relevant example). Considering the fact that she is the girlfriend of the victim, it becomes even more tenuous to base our opinions on her testimony alone.
For people like us, on the internet, not a big deal. The media, however, definitely dropped the ball here and contributed to the deaths of the five officers by this kind of sensationalist reporting.
On July 11 2016 05:14 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:07 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 05:02 biology]major wrote:On July 11 2016 04:54 Chewbacca. wrote:
Not really knowing much about the case, and just going off the article Plansix just posted, what does it matter if he owned the gun legally or illegaly? Having a weapon illegally isn't a reason to shoot a person, especially if he actually told the cop several times that he was carrying and was reaching for his license as required.
The legality of the gun is not as important in this specific shooting imo. The end result is that the victim told the officer he had a weapon, and then reached into his pocket. This is either a failure of the police officer to not properly instruct Castille on what to do, OR he was instructed by the officer to not reach anywhere and he did it anyways. The alternative I see is for the officer to back off and call for backup once he saw suspicious movement by Castille, but it is a tough decision to make in the heat of the moment. The Alton sterling case on the other hand, I can't find any reasonable explanation for. Once again, we have no proof or evidence that Castile told the cop any such thing. Alton Sterling also had a gun (confirmed illegal) and was actively reaching for the gun when the cops shot him. That one is open and shut, justified homicide. Guarantee no charges will be filed. Again only in America. In every other country he would be alive today. The guy is on the ground being subdued by 2 officers. There is no way he should ever be able to present a life or death threat to the officers Again, utterly incompetent police.
I don't care about America vs. Other country arguments.
He was struggling and had freed his right arm, which was descending toward his pocket where the illegal gun was. If he had managed to pull the gun, he could have very easily shot and killed both officers.
If they hadn't shot him, they would have been murdered, and it would have been incompetence on their part to allow a criminal attempting to retrieve a gun to do so.
edit: Cops are not paid enough, this I will agree with. If you don't pay for highly-trained, highly-compensated police than you can't expect highly-trained, highly compensated police to be the ones arresting you. Though this is irrelevant in the Sterling case, as the cops did nothing wrong whatsoever. In fact, they did exactly what they should have done.
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On July 11 2016 05:20 Cowboy24 wrote:
I don't care about America vs. Other country arguments.
He was struggling and had freed his right arm, which was descending toward his pocket where the illegal gun was. If he had managed to pull the gun, he could have very easily shot and killed both officers.
If they hadn't shot him, they would have been murdered, and it would have been incompetence on their part to allow a criminal attempting to retrieve a gun to do so.
They just tasered him moments ago, and shot him six times.
You don't think there was a reasonable resolution to that scenario that does not end up with someone dead?
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On July 11 2016 05:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:20 Cowboy24 wrote:
I don't care about America vs. Other country arguments.
He was struggling and had freed his right arm, which was descending toward his pocket where the illegal gun was. If he had managed to pull the gun, he could have very easily shot and killed both officers.
If they hadn't shot him, they would have been murdered, and it would have been incompetence on their part to allow a criminal attempting to retrieve a gun to do so. They just tasered him moments ago, and shot him six times. You don't think there was a reasonable resolution to that scenario that does not end up with someone dead?
Of course I do.
Alton Sterling should not have had an illegal gun, should not have resisted arrest, should not have attempted to retrieve a deadly weapon from his pocket during a violent struggle.
"Reasonable" resolutions require both parties to be reasonable people. Sterling was not reasonable. It is absurd to suggest the cops should be restrained with a man who is actively attempting to murder them.
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Right, so you have chosen not to believe her story under the belief that it is inaccurate. There is no conflicting evidence, you simply do not want to accept that version of the story at this time.
Edit: yep, all right. It appears that we have come to the root of it. That police use of lethal force is justified if the other side resists and there is even a hint of danger to the officer.
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On July 11 2016 05:26 Plansix wrote:
Right, so you have chosen not to believe her story under the belief that it is inaccurate. There is no conflicting evidence, you simply do not want to accept that version of the story at this time.
Edit: yep, all right. It appears that we have come to the root of it. That police use of lethal force is justified if the other side resists and there is even a hint of danger to the officer.
Kind of. There is no corroborating evidence for her story, so I don't disbelieve or believe it. I think it is indicative of nothing.
edit: That is a strawman. The police use of lethal force is justified if the other side attempts to draw a deadly weapon, which immediately puts the officer in extreme danger.
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On July 11 2016 05:27 Cowboy24 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:26 Plansix wrote:
Right, so you have chosen not to believe her story under the belief that it is inaccurate. There is no conflicting evidence, you simply do not want to accept that version of the story at this time. Kind of. There is no corroborating evidence for her story, so I don't disbelieve or believe it. I think it is indicative of nothing.
Yes, you have chosen to believe that the shooting is justified until you receive overwhelming evidence that it was not. You have bent over backwards to create a situation where the officer felt in danger and was justified in shooting the officer.
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On July 11 2016 05:25 Cowboy24 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:23 TheYango wrote:On July 11 2016 05:20 Cowboy24 wrote:
I don't care about America vs. Other country arguments.
He was struggling and had freed his right arm, which was descending toward his pocket where the illegal gun was. If he had managed to pull the gun, he could have very easily shot and killed both officers.
If they hadn't shot him, they would have been murdered, and it would have been incompetence on their part to allow a criminal attempting to retrieve a gun to do so. They just tasered him moments ago, and shot him six times. You don't think there was a reasonable resolution to that scenario that does not end up with someone dead? Of course I do. Alton Sterling should not have had an illegal gun, should not have resisted arrest, should not have attempted to retrieve a deadly weapon from his pocket during a violent struggle. "Reasonable" resolutions require both parties to be reasonable people. Sterling was not reasonable. It is absurd to suggest the cops should be restrained with a man who is actively attempting to murder them.
Its their job to deal in a non lethal manner with a man who is trying to kill them.
Whatever I'm done. No point arguing if this is your position.
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On July 11 2016 05:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:27 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 05:26 Plansix wrote:
Right, so you have chosen not to believe her story under the belief that it is inaccurate. There is no conflicting evidence, you simply do not want to accept that version of the story at this time. Kind of. There is no corroborating evidence for her story, so I don't disbelieve or believe it. I think it is indicative of nothing. Yes, you have chosen to believe that the shooting is justified until you receive overwhelming evidence that it was not. You have bent over backwards to create a situation where the officer felt in danger and was justified in shooting the officer.
Absolutely not. I have chosen to believe that Yanez is innocent until proven guilty.
Asking for evidence that isn't the testimony of the victim's girlfriend is not expecting "overwhelming evidence". Though, in order to convict the cop, we would need overwhelming evidence.
I have not bent over backward. The presence of a gun has been proven. I think everyone here agrees that guns are extremely dangerous and would feel very reasonably in danger if a suspect produced or attempted to produce a gun during an arrest.
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On July 11 2016 05:30 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:25 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 05:23 TheYango wrote:On July 11 2016 05:20 Cowboy24 wrote:
I don't care about America vs. Other country arguments.
He was struggling and had freed his right arm, which was descending toward his pocket where the illegal gun was. If he had managed to pull the gun, he could have very easily shot and killed both officers.
If they hadn't shot him, they would have been murdered, and it would have been incompetence on their part to allow a criminal attempting to retrieve a gun to do so. They just tasered him moments ago, and shot him six times. You don't think there was a reasonable resolution to that scenario that does not end up with someone dead? Of course I do. Alton Sterling should not have had an illegal gun, should not have resisted arrest, should not have attempted to retrieve a deadly weapon from his pocket during a violent struggle. "Reasonable" resolutions require both parties to be reasonable people. Sterling was not reasonable. It is absurd to suggest the cops should be restrained with a man who is actively attempting to murder them. Its their job to deal in a non lethal manner with a man who is trying to kill them.
That is not true. There is no legal obligation nor traditional obligation to do so. It would be absurd to suggest they should do so, and I am quite sure the majority of Americans would not want officers to be forced with such a silly obligation.
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That police use of lethal force is justified if the other side resists and there is even a hint of danger to the officer.
The police use of lethal force is justified if the other side attempts to draw a deadly weapon, which immediately puts the officer in extreme danger.
You don't see that there's a problem in that it's very easy to make A look like B and use it to justify use of excessive force? That there's no way to hold officers who do that accountable?
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On July 11 2016 05:30 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:25 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 05:23 TheYango wrote:On July 11 2016 05:20 Cowboy24 wrote:
I don't care about America vs. Other country arguments.
He was struggling and had freed his right arm, which was descending toward his pocket where the illegal gun was. If he had managed to pull the gun, he could have very easily shot and killed both officers.
If they hadn't shot him, they would have been murdered, and it would have been incompetence on their part to allow a criminal attempting to retrieve a gun to do so. They just tasered him moments ago, and shot him six times. You don't think there was a reasonable resolution to that scenario that does not end up with someone dead? Of course I do. Alton Sterling should not have had an illegal gun, should not have resisted arrest, should not have attempted to retrieve a deadly weapon from his pocket during a violent struggle. "Reasonable" resolutions require both parties to be reasonable people. Sterling was not reasonable. It is absurd to suggest the cops should be restrained with a man who is actively attempting to murder them. Its their job to deal in a non lethal manner with a man who is trying to kill them.
That's not remotely true. Like, at all. Not even a bit.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
For all of the excessive force arguments, I think you will be hard pressed to find people who agree that officers should avoid lethal force for those who are trying to kill them. General doctrine for US emergency workers (I won't speak for other countries) is that you ensure your own safety before worrying about the safety of others. As far as I know, police follow this doctrine in one form or another.
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On July 11 2016 05:36 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 05:30 Gorsameth wrote:On July 11 2016 05:25 Cowboy24 wrote:On July 11 2016 05:23 TheYango wrote:On July 11 2016 05:20 Cowboy24 wrote:
I don't care about America vs. Other country arguments.
He was struggling and had freed his right arm, which was descending toward his pocket where the illegal gun was. If he had managed to pull the gun, he could have very easily shot and killed both officers.
If they hadn't shot him, they would have been murdered, and it would have been incompetence on their part to allow a criminal attempting to retrieve a gun to do so. They just tasered him moments ago, and shot him six times. You don't think there was a reasonable resolution to that scenario that does not end up with someone dead? Of course I do. Alton Sterling should not have had an illegal gun, should not have resisted arrest, should not have attempted to retrieve a deadly weapon from his pocket during a violent struggle. "Reasonable" resolutions require both parties to be reasonable people. Sterling was not reasonable. It is absurd to suggest the cops should be restrained with a man who is actively attempting to murder them. Its their job to deal in a non lethal manner with a man who is trying to kill them. That's not remotely true. Like, at all. Not even a bit.
The rest of the world manages to make deadly force a measure of completely last resort.
Sadly the US, mostly through incompetent training, has not yet caught on.
In both recent cases the police had plenty of other options available to them, outside of the US both men would be alive today.
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