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On July 09 2016 00:12 kapibara-san wrote:
i'm not defending media portrayal, i've continually agreed with you that media portrayal is flawed
Oh alright then, don't know how I missed that.
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On July 09 2016 00:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:I'm not greenhorizon so I'll actually link relevant numbers here: http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandlerShow nested quote +1. Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black. The majority of these victims had a gun or "were armed or otherwise threatening the officer with potentially lethal force," according to MacDonald in a speech at Hillsdale College.
Some may argue that these statistics are evidence of racist treatment toward blacks, since whites consist of 62 percent of the population and blacks make up 12 percent of the population. But as MacDonald writes in The Wall Street Journal, 2009 statistics from the Bureau of Justice Statistics reveal that blacks were charged with 62 percent of robberies, 57 percent of murders and 45 percent of assaults in the 75 biggest counties in the country, despite only comprising roughly 15 percent of the population in these counties.
"Such a concentration of criminal violence in minority communities means that officers will be disproportionately confronting armed and often resisting suspects in those communities, raising officers’ own risk of using lethal force," writes MacDonald.
MacDonald also pointed out in her Hillsdale speech that blacks "commit 75 percent of all shootings, 70 percent of all robberies, and 66 percent of all violent crime" in New York City, even though they consist of 23 percent of the city's population.
"The black violent crime rate would actually predict that more than 26 percent of police victims would be black," MacDonald said. "Officer use of force will occur where the police interact most often with violent criminals, armed suspects, and those resisting arrest, and that is in black neighborhoods." Which is what I wasted hours trying to get across yesterday but ran into idiots who couldn't math. Show nested quote +4. Black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white officers. This is according to a Department of Justice report in 2015 about the Philadelphia Police Department, and is further confirmed that by a study conducted University of Pennsylvania criminologist Gary Ridgeway in 2015 that determined black cops were 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene.
So how does idiocy play into the fact that you're relying on data obtained in one of the few states where police willingly hand over information? One of the biggest problems with police violence here deals in precisely the thing you're obsessing over; US police departments are mostly extremely secretive with their data and most efforts to kickstart national data-sharing initiatives get shot down by both states rights folk and police unions.
So yeah, I hope the sense of superiority that comes with validating your viewpoint takes into account the extremely limited and incomplete nature of the information you managed to find.
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On July 09 2016 00:14 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:09 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 00:00 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:57 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:54 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:51 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:40 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:39 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:02 Danglars wrote:On July 08 2016 22:32 kapibara-san wrote:
[quote]
nah the left side is just "cops are prone to shooting unarmed black people and we need to reform them to not do that as much"
thats not the kind of reasoning that leads people to shoot cops nearly as much as "the state's out of control" You couldn't have been more clear. The left thinks that COPS are prone to shooting unarmed black people. That's an amount of agreement I was not expecting. I wonder what kind of atmosphere you create when you only cite victims of police shootings as "unarmed black people?" When you connect cop-hate to a generic hate of government, you're letting your own partisan worldview be the primary constructor of your conclusions. It's as predictable as Obama pointing to the power of the weapons and gun control overtones in his first address following the attack. This is how you ensure minority votes if you are a liberal. By creating a hysteria in media and dividing people. pretty sure trump's been doing more of that and you've got the causation backwards, the minorities (which you're unfairly generalizing, it's literally just blacks in this case) start "causing hysteria" over their feeling of victimization (which doesn't seem entirely unjustified) and liberals seem to respond in a more supportive way than conservatives do. the people have always been divided. the liberals are not the ones doing the dividing. but why am i arguing the realities of american culture with a croatian Just an outsider perspective. I do think the media played a huge role in all that is happening to day and that they did favor a biased approach as to how blacks are treated in the USA. you aren't wrong, black issues are disproportionately represented in the media relative to their population and media culture distorts things. but this isn't a concerted effort by liberals to drum up support for themselves. conservatives who dislike "black culture" have ages-old memes of "black on black violence kills way more than police on black" to divert things back to their own narrative too everyone has their memes to redirect conversation to exactly how they wanna talk about things and nobody actually ends up talking with each other, just repeating their memes to reinforce their own positions Yes that is why we have to look at facts. Like is this narative of cops being prone to killing innocent and unarmed black people true to reallity or not? I did see in a lot of places that according to numbers, this is not the case. i dunno what your baseline for it being a problem is, but it happening at all is too much for my tastes. if you're gonna talk about numbers please actually take the time to find them so people can evaluate your evidence as a non-liberal, i don't talk about this kinda stuff to promote liberals winning seats in congress or political power or whatever... i just want better hiring practices and training of cops if you haven't watched the video of the aftermath of the shooting of philando castile, please do... + Show Spoiler +note the cop's total panic... someone who shoots someone calmly announcing he was reaching for his wallet should not be given this position of power I will indeed provide the numbers when i have a bit more time. I dont understand why you think it wouldn't be a problem. Given how much the media focuses on this issue (and as I said, in my opinion they created a hysteria among black people) don't you think it would matter if it was true or not? I am not saying that these things dont happen and that there aren't lots of dirty cops, but if you pick out a few individual cases that fit your narative and dont report on the rest, then it is easy to paint whatever picture you want. Intentional or not. This isn't a new narrative, this isn't new hysteria. Black and brown people have been saying this stuff forever and no one believed them. Told them they were full of shit, blowing things out of proportion, maybe they deserved it, etc. Now everyone is seeing they weren't just making this up. This has always been going on and now with cellphones you're finally seeing it. This is the boiling over of something that has been going on forever and that people refused to address. It's just harder to turn a blind eye to it now when its in your face black and white clear as day in 4K quality from someone's pocket.
As someone said yesterday, nothing has really changed except the social media and video sharing. This problem has existed with police for a long time.
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On July 09 2016 00:16 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:12 kapibara-san wrote:
i'm not defending media portrayal, i've continually agreed with you that media portrayal is flawed Oh alright then, don't know how I missed that.
one thing i was arguing with you about is that liberals were consciously taking advantage of this specifically via the media portrayal...
whereas given the history of the minority vote, the liberals have had the minority vote pretty much no matter what, and the media's misrepresentation is not due to their liberal bias, but due to their hunger for attention and therefore revenue.
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On July 09 2016 00:14 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:09 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 00:00 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:57 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:54 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:51 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:40 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:39 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:02 Danglars wrote:On July 08 2016 22:32 kapibara-san wrote:
[quote]
nah the left side is just "cops are prone to shooting unarmed black people and we need to reform them to not do that as much"
thats not the kind of reasoning that leads people to shoot cops nearly as much as "the state's out of control" You couldn't have been more clear. The left thinks that COPS are prone to shooting unarmed black people. That's an amount of agreement I was not expecting. I wonder what kind of atmosphere you create when you only cite victims of police shootings as "unarmed black people?" When you connect cop-hate to a generic hate of government, you're letting your own partisan worldview be the primary constructor of your conclusions. It's as predictable as Obama pointing to the power of the weapons and gun control overtones in his first address following the attack. This is how you ensure minority votes if you are a liberal. By creating a hysteria in media and dividing people. pretty sure trump's been doing more of that and you've got the causation backwards, the minorities (which you're unfairly generalizing, it's literally just blacks in this case) start "causing hysteria" over their feeling of victimization (which doesn't seem entirely unjustified) and liberals seem to respond in a more supportive way than conservatives do. the people have always been divided. the liberals are not the ones doing the dividing. but why am i arguing the realities of american culture with a croatian Just an outsider perspective. I do think the media played a huge role in all that is happening to day and that they did favor a biased approach as to how blacks are treated in the USA. you aren't wrong, black issues are disproportionately represented in the media relative to their population and media culture distorts things. but this isn't a concerted effort by liberals to drum up support for themselves. conservatives who dislike "black culture" have ages-old memes of "black on black violence kills way more than police on black" to divert things back to their own narrative too everyone has their memes to redirect conversation to exactly how they wanna talk about things and nobody actually ends up talking with each other, just repeating their memes to reinforce their own positions Yes that is why we have to look at facts. Like is this narative of cops being prone to killing innocent and unarmed black people true to reallity or not? I did see in a lot of places that according to numbers, this is not the case. i dunno what your baseline for it being a problem is, but it happening at all is too much for my tastes. if you're gonna talk about numbers please actually take the time to find them so people can evaluate your evidence as a non-liberal, i don't talk about this kinda stuff to promote liberals winning seats in congress or political power or whatever... i just want better hiring practices and training of cops if you haven't watched the video of the aftermath of the shooting of philando castile, please do... + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKWWU8rBsfA note the cop's total panic... someone who shoots someone calmly announcing he was reaching for his wallet should not be given this position of power I will indeed provide the numbers when i have a bit more time. I dont understand why you think it wouldn't be a problem. Given how much the media focuses on this issue (and as I said, in my opinion they created a hysteria among black people) don't you think it would matter if it was true or not? I am not saying that these things dont happen and that there aren't lots of dirty cops, but if you pick out a few individual cases that fit your narative and dont report on the rest, then it is easy to paint whatever picture you want. Intentional or not. This isn't a new narrative, this isn't new hysteria. Black and brown people have been saying this stuff forever and no one believed them. Told them they were full of shit, blowing things out of proportion, maybe they deserved it, etc. Now everyone is seeing they weren't just making this up. This has always been going on and now with cellphones you're finally seeing it. This is the boiling over of something that has been going on forever and that people refused to address. It's just harder to turn a blind eye to it now when its in your face black and white clear as day in 4K quality from someone's pocket.
This is why I say lets look at the numbers. Obviously this is a too emotional subject to discuss with a cool head.
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On July 09 2016 00:22 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:14 OuchyDathurts wrote:On July 09 2016 00:09 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 00:00 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:57 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:54 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:51 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:40 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:39 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:02 Danglars wrote:
[quote]You couldn't have been more clear. The left thinks that COPS are prone to shooting unarmed black people. That's an amount of agreement I was not expecting. I wonder what kind of atmosphere you create when you only cite victims of police shootings as "unarmed black people?"
When you connect cop-hate to a generic hate of government, you're letting your own partisan worldview be the primary constructor of your conclusions. It's as predictable as Obama pointing to the power of the weapons and gun control overtones in his first address following the attack. This is how you ensure minority votes if you are a liberal. By creating a hysteria in media and dividing people. pretty sure trump's been doing more of that and you've got the causation backwards, the minorities (which you're unfairly generalizing, it's literally just blacks in this case) start "causing hysteria" over their feeling of victimization (which doesn't seem entirely unjustified) and liberals seem to respond in a more supportive way than conservatives do. the people have always been divided. the liberals are not the ones doing the dividing. but why am i arguing the realities of american culture with a croatian Just an outsider perspective. I do think the media played a huge role in all that is happening to day and that they did favor a biased approach as to how blacks are treated in the USA. you aren't wrong, black issues are disproportionately represented in the media relative to their population and media culture distorts things. but this isn't a concerted effort by liberals to drum up support for themselves. conservatives who dislike "black culture" have ages-old memes of "black on black violence kills way more than police on black" to divert things back to their own narrative too everyone has their memes to redirect conversation to exactly how they wanna talk about things and nobody actually ends up talking with each other, just repeating their memes to reinforce their own positions Yes that is why we have to look at facts. Like is this narative of cops being prone to killing innocent and unarmed black people true to reallity or not? I did see in a lot of places that according to numbers, this is not the case. i dunno what your baseline for it being a problem is, but it happening at all is too much for my tastes. if you're gonna talk about numbers please actually take the time to find them so people can evaluate your evidence as a non-liberal, i don't talk about this kinda stuff to promote liberals winning seats in congress or political power or whatever... i just want better hiring practices and training of cops if you haven't watched the video of the aftermath of the shooting of philando castile, please do... + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKWWU8rBsfA note the cop's total panic... someone who shoots someone calmly announcing he was reaching for his wallet should not be given this position of power I will indeed provide the numbers when i have a bit more time. I dont understand why you think it wouldn't be a problem. Given how much the media focuses on this issue (and as I said, in my opinion they created a hysteria among black people) don't you think it would matter if it was true or not? I am not saying that these things dont happen and that there aren't lots of dirty cops, but if you pick out a few individual cases that fit your narative and dont report on the rest, then it is easy to paint whatever picture you want. Intentional or not. This isn't a new narrative, this isn't new hysteria. Black and brown people have been saying this stuff forever and no one believed them. Told them they were full of shit, blowing things out of proportion, maybe they deserved it, etc. Now everyone is seeing they weren't just making this up. This has always been going on and now with cellphones you're finally seeing it. This is the boiling over of something that has been going on forever and that people refused to address. It's just harder to turn a blind eye to it now when its in your face black and white clear as day in 4K quality from someone's pocket. This is why I say lets look at the numbers. Obviously this is a too emotional subject to discuss with a cool head.
but again, the issue isn't necessarily that this happens to minorities, it's that it happens a lot at all... minorities are just more poised to document it because of their historically stronger antipathy of the police
white hicks dont have communities that instruct them to record all interactions with police so there's less documentation of the extrajudicial killings in those circumstances
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On July 09 2016 00:22 kapibara-san wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:16 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 00:12 kapibara-san wrote:
i'm not defending media portrayal, i've continually agreed with you that media portrayal is flawed Oh alright then, don't know how I missed that. one thing i was arguing with you about is that liberals were consciously taking advantage of this specifically via the media portrayal... whereas given the history of the minority vote, the liberals have had the minority vote pretty much no matter what, and the media's misrepresentation is not due to their liberal bias, but due to their hunger for attention and therefore revenue.
I was just trying to share my tinfoil hat view on why the media does what it does. Revenue is more likely the answer tho so I agree there.
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On July 09 2016 00:24 kapibara-san wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:22 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 00:14 OuchyDathurts wrote:On July 09 2016 00:09 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 00:00 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:57 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:54 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:51 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:40 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:39 NukeD wrote:
[quote]
This is how you ensure minority votes if you are a liberal. By creating a hysteria in media and dividing people.
pretty sure trump's been doing more of that and you've got the causation backwards, the minorities (which you're unfairly generalizing, it's literally just blacks in this case) start "causing hysteria" over their feeling of victimization (which doesn't seem entirely unjustified) and liberals seem to respond in a more supportive way than conservatives do. the people have always been divided. the liberals are not the ones doing the dividing. but why am i arguing the realities of american culture with a croatian Just an outsider perspective. I do think the media played a huge role in all that is happening to day and that they did favor a biased approach as to how blacks are treated in the USA. you aren't wrong, black issues are disproportionately represented in the media relative to their population and media culture distorts things. but this isn't a concerted effort by liberals to drum up support for themselves. conservatives who dislike "black culture" have ages-old memes of "black on black violence kills way more than police on black" to divert things back to their own narrative too everyone has their memes to redirect conversation to exactly how they wanna talk about things and nobody actually ends up talking with each other, just repeating their memes to reinforce their own positions Yes that is why we have to look at facts. Like is this narative of cops being prone to killing innocent and unarmed black people true to reallity or not? I did see in a lot of places that according to numbers, this is not the case. i dunno what your baseline for it being a problem is, but it happening at all is too much for my tastes. if you're gonna talk about numbers please actually take the time to find them so people can evaluate your evidence as a non-liberal, i don't talk about this kinda stuff to promote liberals winning seats in congress or political power or whatever... i just want better hiring practices and training of cops if you haven't watched the video of the aftermath of the shooting of philando castile, please do... + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKWWU8rBsfA note the cop's total panic... someone who shoots someone calmly announcing he was reaching for his wallet should not be given this position of power I will indeed provide the numbers when i have a bit more time. I dont understand why you think it wouldn't be a problem. Given how much the media focuses on this issue (and as I said, in my opinion they created a hysteria among black people) don't you think it would matter if it was true or not? I am not saying that these things dont happen and that there aren't lots of dirty cops, but if you pick out a few individual cases that fit your narative and dont report on the rest, then it is easy to paint whatever picture you want. Intentional or not. This isn't a new narrative, this isn't new hysteria. Black and brown people have been saying this stuff forever and no one believed them. Told them they were full of shit, blowing things out of proportion, maybe they deserved it, etc. Now everyone is seeing they weren't just making this up. This has always been going on and now with cellphones you're finally seeing it. This is the boiling over of something that has been going on forever and that people refused to address. It's just harder to turn a blind eye to it now when its in your face black and white clear as day in 4K quality from someone's pocket. This is why I say lets look at the numbers. Obviously this is a too emotional subject to discuss with a cool head. but again, the issue isn't necessarily that this happens to minorities, it's that it happens a lot at all... minorities are just more poised to document it because of their historically stronger antipathy of the police white hicks dont have communities that instruct them to record all interactions with police so there's less documentation of the extrajudicial killings in those circumstances
In an ideal world there would be no evil and corrupt cops and I sure wish those things wouldn't happen but we have to deal with reality.
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On July 09 2016 00:24 thePunGun wrote:>>> Here <<<are the numbers.
No, those are extremely limited and incomplete stats relating to the few police departments willing or forced to release data. It's really quite simple; police departments throughout the US are not required to report statistics to any sort of overseeing body, so they don't. Accordingly, relying on findings from studies that only take samples from single cities like Philadelphia is to miss the forest for the trees.
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On July 09 2016 00:27 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:24 kapibara-san wrote:On July 09 2016 00:22 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 00:14 OuchyDathurts wrote:On July 09 2016 00:09 NukeD wrote:On July 09 2016 00:00 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:57 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:54 kapibara-san wrote:On July 08 2016 23:51 NukeD wrote:On July 08 2016 23:40 kapibara-san wrote:
[quote]
pretty sure trump's been doing more of that
and you've got the causation backwards, the minorities (which you're unfairly generalizing, it's literally just blacks in this case) start "causing hysteria" over their feeling of victimization (which doesn't seem entirely unjustified) and liberals seem to respond in a more supportive way than conservatives do.
the people have always been divided. the liberals are not the ones doing the dividing.
but why am i arguing the realities of american culture with a croatian Just an outsider perspective. I do think the media played a huge role in all that is happening to day and that they did favor a biased approach as to how blacks are treated in the USA. you aren't wrong, black issues are disproportionately represented in the media relative to their population and media culture distorts things. but this isn't a concerted effort by liberals to drum up support for themselves. conservatives who dislike "black culture" have ages-old memes of "black on black violence kills way more than police on black" to divert things back to their own narrative too everyone has their memes to redirect conversation to exactly how they wanna talk about things and nobody actually ends up talking with each other, just repeating their memes to reinforce their own positions Yes that is why we have to look at facts. Like is this narative of cops being prone to killing innocent and unarmed black people true to reallity or not? I did see in a lot of places that according to numbers, this is not the case. i dunno what your baseline for it being a problem is, but it happening at all is too much for my tastes. if you're gonna talk about numbers please actually take the time to find them so people can evaluate your evidence as a non-liberal, i don't talk about this kinda stuff to promote liberals winning seats in congress or political power or whatever... i just want better hiring practices and training of cops if you haven't watched the video of the aftermath of the shooting of philando castile, please do... + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKWWU8rBsfA note the cop's total panic... someone who shoots someone calmly announcing he was reaching for his wallet should not be given this position of power I will indeed provide the numbers when i have a bit more time. I dont understand why you think it wouldn't be a problem. Given how much the media focuses on this issue (and as I said, in my opinion they created a hysteria among black people) don't you think it would matter if it was true or not? I am not saying that these things dont happen and that there aren't lots of dirty cops, but if you pick out a few individual cases that fit your narative and dont report on the rest, then it is easy to paint whatever picture you want. Intentional or not. This isn't a new narrative, this isn't new hysteria. Black and brown people have been saying this stuff forever and no one believed them. Told them they were full of shit, blowing things out of proportion, maybe they deserved it, etc. Now everyone is seeing they weren't just making this up. This has always been going on and now with cellphones you're finally seeing it. This is the boiling over of something that has been going on forever and that people refused to address. It's just harder to turn a blind eye to it now when its in your face black and white clear as day in 4K quality from someone's pocket. This is why I say lets look at the numbers. Obviously this is a too emotional subject to discuss with a cool head. but again, the issue isn't necessarily that this happens to minorities, it's that it happens a lot at all... minorities are just more poised to document it because of their historically stronger antipathy of the police white hicks dont have communities that instruct them to record all interactions with police so there's less documentation of the extrajudicial killings in those circumstances In an ideal world there would be no evil and corrupt cops and I sure wish those things wouldn't happen but we have to deal with reality.
well i'm not personally advocating for reform in any constructive way, so i'm not the one dealing with reality, but i don't think asking for reform of american police training and hiring practices is out of the question or unrealistic here
it wasn't evil/corrupt cops who did the 2 shootings yesterday, it was dumb badly trained cops who thought they were in danger when they werent
i don't even blame them personally or want them locked up forever or executed... i just want those types of people to not be given badges and guns in the first place
it's really the people who hired those idiots who are ultimately at fault in my mind
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On July 09 2016 00:27 farvacola wrote:No, those are extremely limited and incomplete stats relating to the few police departments willing or forced to release data. It's really quite simple; police departments throughout the US are not required to report statistics to any sort of overseeing body, so they don't. Accordingly, relying on findings from studies that only take samples from single cities like Philadelphia is to miss the forest for the trees.
Did you even read the whole post? There is way more source material in those statistics than that from Philly...
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On July 09 2016 00:21 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:I'm not greenhorizon so I'll actually link relevant numbers here: http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler1. Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black. The majority of these victims had a gun or "were armed or otherwise threatening the officer with potentially lethal force," according to MacDonald in a speech at Hillsdale College.
Some may argue that these statistics are evidence of racist treatment toward blacks, since whites consist of 62 percent of the population and blacks make up 12 percent of the population. But as MacDonald writes in The Wall Street Journal, 2009 statistics from the Bureau of Justice Statistics reveal that blacks were charged with 62 percent of robberies, 57 percent of murders and 45 percent of assaults in the 75 biggest counties in the country, despite only comprising roughly 15 percent of the population in these counties.
"Such a concentration of criminal violence in minority communities means that officers will be disproportionately confronting armed and often resisting suspects in those communities, raising officers’ own risk of using lethal force," writes MacDonald.
MacDonald also pointed out in her Hillsdale speech that blacks "commit 75 percent of all shootings, 70 percent of all robberies, and 66 percent of all violent crime" in New York City, even though they consist of 23 percent of the city's population.
"The black violent crime rate would actually predict that more than 26 percent of police victims would be black," MacDonald said. "Officer use of force will occur where the police interact most often with violent criminals, armed suspects, and those resisting arrest, and that is in black neighborhoods." Which is what I wasted hours trying to get across yesterday but ran into idiots who couldn't math. 4. Black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white officers. This is according to a Department of Justice report in 2015 about the Philadelphia Police Department, and is further confirmed that by a study conducted University of Pennsylvania criminologist Gary Ridgeway in 2015 that determined black cops were 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene. So how does idiocy play into the fact that you're relying on data obtained in one of the few states where police willingly hand over information? One of the biggest problems with police violence here deals in precisely the thing you're obsessing over; US police departments are mostly extremely secretive with their data and most efforts to kickstart national data-sharing initiatives get shot down by both states rights folk and police unions. So yeah, I hope the sense of superiority that comes with validating your viewpoint takes into account the extremely limited and incomplete nature of the information you managed to find.
Are you talking about the police killing data or crime data? Do you think the disproportion would change if there was official data?
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On July 09 2016 00:31 thePunGun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:27 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2016 00:24 thePunGun wrote:>>> Here <<<are the numbers. No, those are extremely limited and incomplete stats relating to the few police departments willing or forced to release data. It's really quite simple; police departments throughout the US are not required to report statistics to any sort of overseeing body, so they don't. Accordingly, relying on findings from studies that only take samples from single cities like Philadelphia is to miss the forest for the trees. Did you even read the whole post? There is way more source material in those statistics than that from Philly...
And literally every single source has issues with widespread applicability and incomplete reporting. Again, the fact of the matter is that the Feds lack any power to compel police departments to release information outside very narrow 1983 proceedings. Furthmore, it is not standard practice for US police departments to release any sort of data or statistics at all. Accordingly, the notion that we have good data with which to draw conclusions is ill-conceived and divorced from reality.
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The police are problematic. But I do not think how "militarized" they are is the problem. They are armed people with authority and power over others. Should that authority be leveraged, should that power be used against citizens--it won't matter if they have bazookas or billy clubs. We can arm them to the teeth or we could force them to use plastic bags as their only allowed form of weapons--and they will find a way to use their tools to the maximum of advantage.
The only fix to the police problem is not about what weapons they have, but about what stake they have in the community they are in.
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On July 09 2016 00:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:21 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2016 00:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:I'm not greenhorizon so I'll actually link relevant numbers here: http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler1. Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black. The majority of these victims had a gun or "were armed or otherwise threatening the officer with potentially lethal force," according to MacDonald in a speech at Hillsdale College.
Some may argue that these statistics are evidence of racist treatment toward blacks, since whites consist of 62 percent of the population and blacks make up 12 percent of the population. But as MacDonald writes in The Wall Street Journal, 2009 statistics from the Bureau of Justice Statistics reveal that blacks were charged with 62 percent of robberies, 57 percent of murders and 45 percent of assaults in the 75 biggest counties in the country, despite only comprising roughly 15 percent of the population in these counties.
"Such a concentration of criminal violence in minority communities means that officers will be disproportionately confronting armed and often resisting suspects in those communities, raising officers’ own risk of using lethal force," writes MacDonald.
MacDonald also pointed out in her Hillsdale speech that blacks "commit 75 percent of all shootings, 70 percent of all robberies, and 66 percent of all violent crime" in New York City, even though they consist of 23 percent of the city's population.
"The black violent crime rate would actually predict that more than 26 percent of police victims would be black," MacDonald said. "Officer use of force will occur where the police interact most often with violent criminals, armed suspects, and those resisting arrest, and that is in black neighborhoods." Which is what I wasted hours trying to get across yesterday but ran into idiots who couldn't math. 4. Black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white officers. This is according to a Department of Justice report in 2015 about the Philadelphia Police Department, and is further confirmed that by a study conducted University of Pennsylvania criminologist Gary Ridgeway in 2015 that determined black cops were 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene. So how does idiocy play into the fact that you're relying on data obtained in one of the few states where police willingly hand over information? One of the biggest problems with police violence here deals in precisely the thing you're obsessing over; US police departments are mostly extremely secretive with their data and most efforts to kickstart national data-sharing initiatives get shot down by both states rights folk and police unions. So yeah, I hope the sense of superiority that comes with validating your viewpoint takes into account the extremely limited and incomplete nature of the information you managed to find. Are you talking about the police killing data or crime data? Do you think the disproportion would change if there was official data?
Many states do not report or collect data on the use of lethal force by police. Florida does not collect it at all. The federal government does not collect it either. Any data you find is incomplete or released selectively.
We do not know how many people the state kills through police action in the US and have not for decades.
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guys by engaging with these statistics about race you're giving credence to the idea that race statistics matter at all when the solution regardless is to train police better and have 3rd party oversight of their killings
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On July 09 2016 00:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 00:21 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2016 00:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:I'm not greenhorizon so I'll actually link relevant numbers here: http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler1. Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black. The majority of these victims had a gun or "were armed or otherwise threatening the officer with potentially lethal force," according to MacDonald in a speech at Hillsdale College.
Some may argue that these statistics are evidence of racist treatment toward blacks, since whites consist of 62 percent of the population and blacks make up 12 percent of the population. But as MacDonald writes in The Wall Street Journal, 2009 statistics from the Bureau of Justice Statistics reveal that blacks were charged with 62 percent of robberies, 57 percent of murders and 45 percent of assaults in the 75 biggest counties in the country, despite only comprising roughly 15 percent of the population in these counties.
"Such a concentration of criminal violence in minority communities means that officers will be disproportionately confronting armed and often resisting suspects in those communities, raising officers’ own risk of using lethal force," writes MacDonald.
MacDonald also pointed out in her Hillsdale speech that blacks "commit 75 percent of all shootings, 70 percent of all robberies, and 66 percent of all violent crime" in New York City, even though they consist of 23 percent of the city's population.
"The black violent crime rate would actually predict that more than 26 percent of police victims would be black," MacDonald said. "Officer use of force will occur where the police interact most often with violent criminals, armed suspects, and those resisting arrest, and that is in black neighborhoods." Which is what I wasted hours trying to get across yesterday but ran into idiots who couldn't math. 4. Black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white officers. This is according to a Department of Justice report in 2015 about the Philadelphia Police Department, and is further confirmed that by a study conducted University of Pennsylvania criminologist Gary Ridgeway in 2015 that determined black cops were 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene. So how does idiocy play into the fact that you're relying on data obtained in one of the few states where police willingly hand over information? One of the biggest problems with police violence here deals in precisely the thing you're obsessing over; US police departments are mostly extremely secretive with their data and most efforts to kickstart national data-sharing initiatives get shot down by both states rights folk and police unions. So yeah, I hope the sense of superiority that comes with validating your viewpoint takes into account the extremely limited and incomplete nature of the information you managed to find. Are you talking about the police killing data or crime data? Do you think the disproportion would change if there was official data?
Charging data is incredibly limited in usefulness because it fails to account for the differences in prosecutorial willingness to charge whites as opposed to blacks. Look up some information on Hillsdale and you'll see why that speech should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
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On July 09 2016 00:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:
The police are problematic. But I do not think how "militarized" they are is the problem. They are armed people with authority and power over others. Should that authority be leveraged, should that power be used against citizens--it won't matter if they have bazookas or billy clubs. We can arm them to the teeth or we could force them to use plastic bags as their only allowed form of weapons--and they will find a way to use their tools to the maximum of advantage.
The only fix to the police problem is not about what weapons they have, but about what stake they have in the community they are in.
it's just the training
relevant reddit post i read yesterday on the topic:
![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/pUHFG/0048e60fd1.png)
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/4rgu6p/alton_sterling_shot_killed_by_louisiana_cops/d515mhc
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On July 09 2016 00:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:
The police are problematic. But I do not think how "militarized" they are is the problem. They are armed people with authority and power over others. Should that authority be leveraged, should that power be used against citizens--it won't matter if they have bazookas or billy clubs. We can arm them to the teeth or we could force them to use plastic bags as their only allowed form of weapons--and they will find a way to use their tools to the maximum of advantage.
The only fix to the police problem is not about what weapons they have, but about what stake they have in the community they are in.
Consider the requirements of being a police officer. You can get some pretty low quality people as cops just because its a really easy job to get. We are giving these people a legal right to kill someone. That's a really, really, really big deal and should mean they are not only substantially more distinguished, but they should also be paid much more. It should be a very well paying, very exclusive job. I've always thought it should require a law degree and offer pay competitive for people with law degrees.
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EPT
