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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

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Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
May 17 2016 23:29 GMT
#76721
NV Dems response to Sanders

Yeah I'm pretty tired of primary season so I'm just gonna sit this out with some popcorn
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24457 Posts
May 17 2016 23:34 GMT
#76722
On May 18 2016 08:14 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Just for clarification since it seems to be highly conflated in this thread.

Privilege, Racism, and Institutional disparity are very different things that overlap over a lot a of the same issues.

Privilege is what a group gets who are favored by an institutional disparity while "isms" like Racism or Feminism, are the victims of that specific institutional disparity.

In the US white males are privileged, in that they live in a society that favors whites over blacks and favors men over women. This does not mean white males are racists or misogynists, it simply means that they are rewarded for being white males in a society with an institutional disparity.

In the US, a klan member is usually racists towards non-whites. This is a separate issue from any privilege the klan member might have, as his racism is a personal opinion he has that affects his outward actions to others. The klan member could be both privileged AND racists but he is not racist BECAUSE he's privileged not is he privileged BECAUSE he's racist.

Institutionalized disparities are side effects of the statistical trends within society. Little things like being more attracted to good looking people than ugly people will create an institutionalized disparity between ugly people and pretty people. Not that 100% of the citizens of this society actually hates or wants to hurt ugly people, but since there are statistical trends that favor the pretty people, more of them get chances to advance in either professional or social settings.

What does this mean?

When we conflate these three to al mean RACIST or MISOGYNIST or whatever "IST" that happens to be popular, it twists the dialogue such that people end up discussing very different things.

The privilege that some groups in this country get is an issue, and racism or sexism is one of the primary causes that leads to that privilege (but not the only)--but individuals themselves cannot create or control their privilege.

In the context of this discussion, african americans are usually very unprivileged in the US because of racist perceptions society has towards them on a large statistical scale. As such, african americans are pulled and pushed into less positive positions that creates the optic that there is correlation between being black and being of certain social hierarchies.


That seems like an unusually nuanced and reasonable position...

+ Show Spoiler +
Have the pod people arrived?!?


The one thing I would pick at is while people can not individually create or control (save for small groups of powerful people) their privilege, other than mentally handicapped people, everyone can at least acknowledge it as an issue that needs to be resolved. If we could get everyone that far we could start making some progress.

Instead we have the other extreme where people are thinking it's really white men who are at the mercy of a new and destructive "black/female/etc... privilege"

It's demonstrated every time this topic comes up here and just about anywhere else.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-17 23:44:57
May 17 2016 23:39 GMT
#76723
On May 18 2016 08:20 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2016 06:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
So if the question is how do we accelerate that, I'd say by making sure we don't allow those views to be treated like they are worthy of discussion. We need to treat the absurdity of modern racism in the same way we would treat the idea of re-enslaving people (as that's basically what's happened with private prisons anyway).

That's exactly the right way to make people much more polarized and willing to vote for reactionary candidates who promise to reverse that issue. Ignore people and they will push more strongly for their position, and furthermore it's a slippery slope.

If you try to label everything as "racist" and unworthy of being taken seriously, you're going to go down a very shitty road. Worried about economic issues with Syrian immigrants? Racist! Worried about crime from Mexican immigrants? Racist! Argue that BLM has a very shitty element to it that has encouraged lots of petty crime and poorly thought out accusations of "privilege omfgz" that don't hold up to scrutiny? Racist! Keep doing this, and it's no wonder that genuine race-related issues get drowned out in the process. Being a shitty messenger is not a good way to get your message to have any traction, and crying "racism" on every other issue is a great way to make a message that may otherwise seem reasonable to be drowned out.


Tell people for a hundred years that they can't have nice things because of their skin color, and when they actually start demanding things because of their skin color tell them that it doesn't matter and that they should ignore it, because the majority of the society doesn't mind being reminded of their misdeeds and they don't want to give all of the good stuff up that they have now

Maybe for once let the affected group lead the discourse? Why do the ones least affected get to determine what the "right way" to protest is? Could be an Onion headline "Angry man tells feminist what forms of criticism are acceptable"
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24457 Posts
May 17 2016 23:46 GMT
#76724
On May 18 2016 08:26 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2016 08:20 LegalLord wrote:
On May 18 2016 06:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
So if the question is how do we accelerate that, I'd say by making sure we don't allow those views to be treated like they are worthy of discussion. We need to treat the absurdity of modern racism in the same way we would treat the idea of re-enslaving people (as that's basically what's happened with private prisons anyway).

That's exactly the right way to make people much more polarized and willing to vote for reactionary candidates who promise to reverse that issue. Ignore people and they will push more strongly for their position, and furthermore it's a slippery slope.

If you try to label everything as "racist" and unworthy of being taken seriously, you're going to go down a very shitty road. Worried about economic issues with Syrian immigrants? Racist! Worried about crime from Mexican immigrants? Racist! Argue that BLM has a very shitty element to it that has encouraged lots of petty crime and poorly thought out accusations of "privilege omfgz" that don't hold up to scrutiny? Racist! Keep doing this, and it's no wonder that genuine race-related issues get drowned out in the process. Being a shitty messenger is not a good way to get your message to have any traction, and crying "racism" on every other issue is a great way to make a message that may otherwise seem reasonable to be drowned out.


So much of this!

Step one in all dialogue is listening to both sides even if you disagree with the other side. Step two is looking at the overlapping ideas and place importance and emphasis on those. Once both sides are happy with something, then discussions can be made to stretch out the initial shared ideas to spread out to the rest of the core topic.

Its a slow, deliberate change that takes lots of time and lots of effort. When you start the discussion by accusing them of being evil then you're literally getting nowhere.


People aren't generally evil, it's mostly just gross stupidity/ignorance. As for the shame part, one of the most popular threads on this forum is dedicated to precisely what I'm talking about. Except the things people are shamed for there are usually exponentially more petty and pointless. If it only makes things worse, we should close it now to set an example.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
May 17 2016 23:49 GMT
#76725
On May 18 2016 08:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2016 08:14 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Just for clarification since it seems to be highly conflated in this thread.

Privilege, Racism, and Institutional disparity are very different things that overlap over a lot a of the same issues.

Privilege is what a group gets who are favored by an institutional disparity while "isms" like Racism or Feminism, are the victims of that specific institutional disparity.

In the US white males are privileged, in that they live in a society that favors whites over blacks and favors men over women. This does not mean white males are racists or misogynists, it simply means that they are rewarded for being white males in a society with an institutional disparity.

In the US, a klan member is usually racists towards non-whites. This is a separate issue from any privilege the klan member might have, as his racism is a personal opinion he has that affects his outward actions to others. The klan member could be both privileged AND racists but he is not racist BECAUSE he's privileged not is he privileged BECAUSE he's racist.

Institutionalized disparities are side effects of the statistical trends within society. Little things like being more attracted to good looking people than ugly people will create an institutionalized disparity between ugly people and pretty people. Not that 100% of the citizens of this society actually hates or wants to hurt ugly people, but since there are statistical trends that favor the pretty people, more of them get chances to advance in either professional or social settings.

What does this mean?

When we conflate these three to al mean RACIST or MISOGYNIST or whatever "IST" that happens to be popular, it twists the dialogue such that people end up discussing very different things.

The privilege that some groups in this country get is an issue, and racism or sexism is one of the primary causes that leads to that privilege (but not the only)--but individuals themselves cannot create or control their privilege.

In the context of this discussion, african americans are usually very unprivileged in the US because of racist perceptions society has towards them on a large statistical scale. As such, african americans are pulled and pushed into less positive positions that creates the optic that there is correlation between being black and being of certain social hierarchies.


That seems like an unusually nuanced and reasonable position...

+ Show Spoiler +
Have the pod people arrived?!?


The one thing I would pick at is while people can not individually create or control (save for small groups of powerful people) their privilege, other than mentally handicapped people, everyone can at least acknowledge it as an issue that needs to be resolved. If we could get everyone that far we could start making some progress.

Instead we have the other extreme where people are thinking it's really white men who are at the mercy of a new and destructive "black/female/etc... privilege"

It's demonstrated every time this topic comes up here and just about anywhere else.


100% that's the first step to fix everything. I feel that too many people assuming stating "I am privileged" makes them feel like they are saying "I am racist" when it really means "I see that I live in a society that has racism/sexism/ism in it and I am willing to actively work to make the changes necessary reduce that"
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
May 17 2016 23:50 GMT
#76726
Which thread?
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
May 17 2016 23:56 GMT
#76727
On May 18 2016 08:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
NV Dems response to Sanders

Yeah I'm pretty tired of primary season so I'm just gonna sit this out with some popcorn

It was disappointing to see how slimy the statement from the Sanders campaign was. I'm guessing it was written by Jeff Weaver given it followed his usual style of denying reality and doubling down on their narrative/attacking the "establishment", but Sanders still approved it. The misrepresentations and lies it included are embarrassing. They're running a presidential campaign, ffs.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-18 00:07:41
May 18 2016 00:07 GMT
#76728
On May 18 2016 08:56 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2016 08:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
NV Dems response to Sanders

Yeah I'm pretty tired of primary season so I'm just gonna sit this out with some popcorn

It was disappointing to see how slimy the statement from the Sanders campaign was. I'm guessing it was written by Jeff Weaver given it followed his usual style of denying reality and doubling down on their narrative/attacking the "establishment", but Sanders still approved it. The misrepresentations and lies it included are embarrassing. They're running a presidential campaign, ffs.


This whole thing isn't exactly going to rally widespread support in California. He's toast. Trump can double down on crazy, but that won't work on democrats. Time to go drop my Oregon ballot off for our supreme goddess.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-18 00:17:35
May 18 2016 00:16 GMT
#76729
On May 17 2016 17:18 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2016 14:33 WhiteDog wrote:
On May 17 2016 12:34 Jaaaaasper wrote:
The sanders fan base is almost as reactionary, almost as racist, and even more delusional than the trump supporters. And one of them should be along to correct the record any time now

This word "racist" is thrown so much it might become a name in a generation or two. Meet John Racist !
In Hillary Clinton plan against global warming, there's even a reference to "environmental racism" to justify action against global warming... Because fighting the destruction of the environment is not progressive enough lol

It's just the modern left becoming more and more insane I'm afraid.Here's an event (conference/speech) from University of Melbourne a little over a week ago "Is Islamophobia accelerating global warming?"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-15/peak-absurdity

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Wow this is amazing .... thank you.

On May 17 2016 18:46 OtherWorld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2016 14:43 Nyxisto wrote:
I think environmental racism refers to dumping waste and toxins and such in low income immigrant communities which seems like a pretty reasonable concern tbh

But what does that have to do with race? Shit is being dumped there because they're poor and disinfranchised, not because they're of race X. We didn't wait mass immigration to consider that poor people's health was worth less than the rich's.

There are some arguments.
Exposure to pesticides and chemicals has been linked to childhood cancer, and the likelihood of such exposure can depend on where children live. For example, in the Manchester neighborhood of Houston, which is 85 percent Latino and where 27 schools are within one mile of a high-risk chemical facility, children who attend public schools are 56 percent more likely to get leukemia than those who live 10 miles away.

Simply put, this is environmental racism.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2016/04/13/hillary-clintons-plan-to-fight-for-environmental-and-climate-justice/
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 18 2016 00:36 GMT
#76730
So MSNBC might have just jinxed the Clinton campaign in the General when Chuck Todd just said those that voted for Sanders and other democrats and not Clinton were not important and Alison Grimes said their votes didn't matter.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
May 18 2016 00:37 GMT
#76731
On May 18 2016 09:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So MSNBC might have just jinxed the Clinton campaign in the General when Chuck Todd just said those that voted for Sanders and other democrats and not Clinton were not important and Alison Grimes said their votes didn't matter.


Sigh... the winning side is supposed to not care about the losing side because they're already winning. Shit like this is what leads to losing
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-18 01:27:31
May 18 2016 00:39 GMT
#76732
On May 18 2016 08:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
NV Dems response to Sanders

Yeah I'm pretty tired of primary season so I'm just gonna sit this out with some popcorn


Hillary putting Bernie to bed in KY tonight. He can't drop out soon enough. The longer he keeps up his Corrupt, Rigged, Cheating narratives the worse the convention will be.

EDIT: I mean ... come on Jefferson country! Time to save the day!
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2016/may/17/primary-results-kentucky-oregon-election-2016

EDIT2: And it is done. Hillary goes +1 relative delegate and Bernie needs to win by another 3% in California.
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
May 18 2016 00:58 GMT
#76733
Regardless of who officially ends up winning KY, Bernie lost. He needed 65%, lol.
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
May 18 2016 00:59 GMT
#76734
sanders 191,172
46.6%
clinton 191,028
46.5%
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-18 01:04:37
May 18 2016 01:03 GMT
#76735
its proportional so a basic draw doesn't help bernie other then maybe give him a reason to stay in the race (It's good pr but thats about it). I just wish California could have it's primary already so we could stop all this (pretty sure everything til then is essentially meaningless)
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-18 01:30:41
May 18 2016 01:30 GMT
#76736
On May 18 2016 10:03 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
its proportional so a basic draw doesn't help bernie other then maybe give him a reason to stay in the race (It's good pr but thats about it). I just wish California could have it's primary already so we could stop all this (pretty sure everything til then is essentially meaningless)


Bernie losing KY prevents him from saying the revolution is finally happening and prevents him from pretending "winning" is all about the most recent primary, not delegates.

That being said, he's about to body slam Oregon. Hard. Despite my best efforts </3
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-18 01:37:11
May 18 2016 01:33 GMT
#76737
On May 18 2016 10:30 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2016 10:03 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
its proportional so a basic draw doesn't help bernie other then maybe give him a reason to stay in the race (It's good pr but thats about it). I just wish California could have it's primary already so we could stop all this (pretty sure everything til then is essentially meaningless)


Bernie losing KY prevents him from saying the revolution is finally happening and prevents him from pretending "winning" is all about the most recent primary, not delegates.

That being said, he's about to body slam Oregon. Hard. Despite my best efforts </3



Oregon voters are like 90 percent white or some ridiculous number like that. It's expected
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
May 18 2016 01:35 GMT
#76738
On May 18 2016 10:33 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2016 10:30 Mohdoo wrote:
On May 18 2016 10:03 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
its proportional so a basic draw doesn't help bernie other then maybe give him a reason to stay in the race (It's good pr but thats about it). I just wish California could have it's primary already so we could stop all this (pretty sure everything til then is essentially meaningless)


Bernie losing KY prevents him from saying the revolution is finally happening and prevents him from pretending "winning" is all about the most recent primary, not delegates.

That being said, he's about to body slam Oregon. Hard. Despite my best efforts </3



Oregon voters are like 90 percent white I think. It's expected


I would be shocked to find we are only 90% white.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-18 01:39:29
May 18 2016 01:38 GMT
#76739
On May 18 2016 10:35 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2016 10:33 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
On May 18 2016 10:30 Mohdoo wrote:
On May 18 2016 10:03 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
its proportional so a basic draw doesn't help bernie other then maybe give him a reason to stay in the race (It's good pr but thats about it). I just wish California could have it's primary already so we could stop all this (pretty sure everything til then is essentially meaningless)


Bernie losing KY prevents him from saying the revolution is finally happening and prevents him from pretending "winning" is all about the most recent primary, not delegates.

That being said, he's about to body slam Oregon. Hard. Despite my best efforts </3



Oregon voters are like 90 percent white I think. It's expected


I would be shocked to find we are only 90% white.



found what I was referencing from 538 "That’s because whites made up about 90 percent of Obama voters in the 2008 general election." so the overall percentage of whites in Oregon is probably higher then that

Oregon's nice though, I'm going to school there in the fall
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-18 01:39:23
May 18 2016 01:38 GMT
#76740
It annoys me how much of the behavior of congress would, if done in a court of law, be grounds for contempt of court. imho, Congress should have higher standards than your regular run of the mill court of law.
(watching more c-span, this time some hearings on the Iran nuclear deal, and some drivel a republican is spouting which is thoroughly unsound).
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
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