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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 13 2016 18:21 GMT
#72001
The thing is, doctor is not exclusive to the medical field and the term is not regulated. Just like priest isn't exclusive to Catholics. We have to go way beyond the title itself to see if someone is being deceptive and it is worthy a fraud charge.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
April 13 2016 18:23 GMT
#72002
On April 14 2016 03:21 Plansix wrote:
The thing is, doctor is not exclusive to the medical field and the term is not regulated. Just like priest isn't exclusive to Catholics. We have to go way beyond the title itself to see if someone is being deceptive and it is worthy a fraud charge.


I highly doubt these ND's have the PHD's required to be called doctors outside of the medical field. I doubt most of them have anything better than a liberal arts B.S or even a high school diploma.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-13 18:31:16
April 13 2016 18:26 GMT
#72003
On April 14 2016 03:21 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2016 03:18 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:08 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:04 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:02 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:59 travis wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:18 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2016 01:58 travis wrote:
Good, I am glad he supports alternative medicine. Fuck people who think they know everything, and science doesn't even shut down a lot of what alternative medicine has to offer at the moment. But this is an argument that has been had on this website a thousand times and every time it involves a bunch of people throwing up strawmen and ripping them apart.

Furthermore, what science says doesn't really mean jack shit in the face of results. My sister is a naturopathic doctor and the results she gets from many of her treatments (particularly acupuncture) really make what science says irrelevant, because results are results.

Does she have an MD?


I don't think so.

But you called her a naturopathic doctor? Does she tell people she's a doctor when they come to her with medical complaints?

"Naturopathic Doctor" is an official, protected designation in some places.

But a ND does not have a MD and yet, apparently, can exploit the huge amount of social capital the MD field has built up over a century of performing actual medicine. If I were to create a new designation and call myself a doctor and then encourage people to pay me for doing the things a doctor does then the fact that when they think doctor they're thinking about someone with a MD, which I don't have, wouldn't handicap me. But it probably should.

Hell, at least make them wear badges that say "I don't have a MD".

Hmm, I dunno. I think that someone who goes to a ND knows very well what he's doing, because he'll be usually part of one of these categories : either he'll go to a ND as a complement of a EBM-approved treatment, or he'll go to a ND because he hates EBM, hospitals and stuff, and feels that he's doing a "rebellious" act by going the alternative route. Thus in both case the customer knows that he's not going to a regular MD, thus the ND does not exploit the MD's social capital.

Now if your ND actually acts as a doctor, or pretends to have formal MD education, or does things that legally belong to the medical profession, then it's another case. He's doing illegal stuff (at least illegal in France, "Unauthorized practice of medicine"), and he's an outlaw as such.

I'm actually somewhat tempted to make an appointment with a ND and see now. But I think you underestimate human stupidity. With a white coat, a smart office and telling people you're a doctor I think a lot of people will confuse you with an actual doctor.

To be perfectly honest, my impression of NDs is that they seem to be part nutritionist and mental health coach. Its a lot of yoga and steam baths. If you went in and said you had cancer, I am willing to bet they tell you to go to a doctor.

On April 14 2016 03:23 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2016 03:21 Plansix wrote:
The thing is, doctor is not exclusive to the medical field and the term is not regulated. Just like priest isn't exclusive to Catholics. We have to go way beyond the title itself to see if someone is being deceptive and it is worthy a fraud charge.


I highly doubt these ND's have the PHD's required to be called doctors outside of the medical field. I doubt most of them have anything better than a liberal arts B.S or even a high school diploma.


They are not regulated, so they do not require anything. Apparently, like paralegals, they have their own system of accreditation and best practices, which likely includes "Don't try to cure life threatening illness for the love of god, tell them to go to real doctors." We have a similar system in our accreditation, which is to never offer legal advice. both require 4 year degrees.

Both the unauthorized practice of medicine and law are illegal in this state and many others. I really don't see a problem with any of this. Passing yourself off as a medical doctor is 100% illegal.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
April 13 2016 18:32 GMT
#72004
On April 14 2016 03:23 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2016 03:21 Plansix wrote:
The thing is, doctor is not exclusive to the medical field and the term is not regulated. Just like priest isn't exclusive to Catholics. We have to go way beyond the title itself to see if someone is being deceptive and it is worthy a fraud charge.


I highly doubt these ND's have the PHD's required to be called doctors outside of the medical field. I doubt most of them have anything better than a liberal arts B.S or even a high school diploma.

Google tells me they have 4 year of studies, which is pretty decent assuming they study more than 20 hours per week.

On April 14 2016 03:26 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2016 03:21 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:18 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:08 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:04 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:02 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:59 travis wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:18 KwarK wrote:
On April 14 2016 01:58 travis wrote:
Good, I am glad he supports alternative medicine. Fuck people who think they know everything, and science doesn't even shut down a lot of what alternative medicine has to offer at the moment. But this is an argument that has been had on this website a thousand times and every time it involves a bunch of people throwing up strawmen and ripping them apart.

Furthermore, what science says doesn't really mean jack shit in the face of results. My sister is a naturopathic doctor and the results she gets from many of her treatments (particularly acupuncture) really make what science says irrelevant, because results are results.

Does she have an MD?


I don't think so.

But you called her a naturopathic doctor? Does she tell people she's a doctor when they come to her with medical complaints?

"Naturopathic Doctor" is an official, protected designation in some places.

But a ND does not have a MD and yet, apparently, can exploit the huge amount of social capital the MD field has built up over a century of performing actual medicine. If I were to create a new designation and call myself a doctor and then encourage people to pay me for doing the things a doctor does then the fact that when they think doctor they're thinking about someone with a MD, which I don't have, wouldn't handicap me. But it probably should.

Hell, at least make them wear badges that say "I don't have a MD".

Hmm, I dunno. I think that someone who goes to a ND knows very well what he's doing, because he'll be usually part of one of these categories : either he'll go to a ND as a complement of a EBM-approved treatment, or he'll go to a ND because he hates EBM, hospitals and stuff, and feels that he's doing a "rebellious" act by going the alternative route. Thus in both case the customer knows that he's not going to a regular MD, thus the ND does not exploit the MD's social capital.

Now if your ND actually acts as a doctor, or pretends to have formal MD education, or does things that legally belong to the medical profession, then it's another case. He's doing illegal stuff (at least illegal in France, "Unauthorized practice of medicine"), and he's an outlaw as such.

I'm actually somewhat tempted to make an appointment with a ND and see now. But I think you underestimate human stupidity. With a white coat, a smart office and telling people you're a doctor I think a lot of people will confuse you with an actual doctor.

To be perfectly honest, my impression of NDs is that they seem to be part nutritionist and mental health coach. Its a lot of yoga and steam baths. If you went in and said you had cancer, I am willing to bet they tell you to go to a doctor.

Well yes, that's what alternative medicine is (or should be, at least) for, a complement to EBM. There's nothing wrong with going to a ND to complement the "scientific" treatment you'll get for your cancer, if that's what you as individual feel is best for you. The problem (from the society's POV, at least) is when people use alternative medicine while thinking that it will replace EBM.
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
tenklavir
Profile Joined November 2010
Slovakia116 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-13 18:37:27
April 13 2016 18:34 GMT
#72005
Having had cancer, while also having studied at great depth the computational biology and stochastic nature of cancer growth and development, I feel that I have a fairly unique perspective on this:

The double-blind study is our best hope of finding new treatments, and I believe the federal government should do whatever it can to stamp out alternative medicine claims and pseudoscientific nonsense. No one is arguing that people should not be able to treat themselves in whatever way they see fit, but any person/company who makes a claim that their method or product treats a disease should be legally required to back up that claim. How many cancer patients needlessly die because some quack told them to drink some diluted hydrogen peroxide to treat their breast cancer? It is an absolutely travesty.

E: Anyone interested in the maths I would encourage to read Wodarz and Komarova's "Computational Biology Of Cancer: Lecture Notes And Mathematical Modeling".
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
April 13 2016 18:40 GMT
#72006
On April 14 2016 03:34 tenklavir wrote:
Having had cancer, while also having studied at great depth the computational biology and stochastic nature of cancer growth and development, I feel that I have a fairly unique perspective on this:

The double-blind study is our best hope of finding new treatments, and I believe the federal government should do whatever it can to stamp out alternative medicine claims and pseudoscientific nonsense. No one is arguing that people should not be able to treat themselves in whatever way they see fit, but any person/company who makes a claim that their method or product treats a disease should be legally required to back up that claim. How many cancer patients needlessly die because some quack told them to drink some diluted hydrogen peroxide to treat their breast cancer? It is an absolutely travesty.

E: Anyone interested in the maths I would encourage to read Wodarz and Komarova's "Computational Biology Of Cancer: Lecture Notes And Mathematical Modeling".

That's actually already the case in France, I'm surprised it isn't the case in the US, where lawsuits are kings? (though that requires to define "disease" and "treatment", which is never an easy thing to do)
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
April 13 2016 18:51 GMT
#72007
I'd mostly just like to change the laws on supplements, so they have to accurately state their ingredients AND quantities.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15742 Posts
April 13 2016 19:00 GMT
#72008
On April 13 2016 23:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
Bernie Sanders is surging in California, according to a Field Poll of likely Democratic primary voters released Friday.

Hillary Clinton still leads the Vermont senator in the state, 47 percent to 41 percent with 12 percent undecided, but the former secretary of state has seen only a modest, 1-point uptick since the last survey was conducted in January. Sanders, meanwhile, has jumped 6 percentage points.

Source


I think Sanders is definitely gonna win California. I don't think that's nearly enough though.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45383 Posts
April 13 2016 19:06 GMT
#72009
On April 14 2016 03:51 zlefin wrote:
I'd mostly just like to change the laws on supplements, so they have to accurately state their ingredients AND quantities.


I'd like that too. And FDA approval imo.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-13 19:13:15
April 13 2016 19:12 GMT
#72010
FDA approval doesn't go much past "it's safe" though

Should be a rule that all studies for a drug need to come out (not just the favorable ones) and an independent board of scientists should review the findings
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22163 Posts
April 13 2016 19:15 GMT
#72011
On April 14 2016 04:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
FDA approval doesn't go much past "it's safe" though

Should be a rule that all studies for a drug need to come out (not just the favorable ones) and an independent board of scientists should review the findings

getting FDA approval is not an easy thing tho, my brother works for a pharmaceutical and there is a whole lot of work that goes into that.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45383 Posts
April 13 2016 19:18 GMT
#72012
Yeah I was under the impression that FDA approval wasn't a trivial achievement, or else the supplement industry wouldn't lobby against needing to obtain it. It would only give them credibility...
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4783 Posts
April 13 2016 19:18 GMT
#72013
On April 14 2016 04:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
FDA approval doesn't go much past "it's safe" though

Should be a rule that all studies for a drug need to come out (not just the favorable ones) and an independent board of scientists should review the findings


If we are talking medical approval it also needs to be efficacious.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-13 19:20:19
April 13 2016 19:19 GMT
#72014
On April 14 2016 04:15 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2016 04:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
FDA approval doesn't go much past "it's safe" though

Should be a rule that all studies for a drug need to come out (not just the favorable ones) and an independent board of scientists should review the findings

getting FDA approval is not an easy thing tho, my brother works for a pharmaceutical and there is a whole lot of work that goes into that.


Yeah I'm familiar with the process, it's very focused on safety over actual efficacy. The bar for efficacy is rather low, like you only have to show very marginal improvement for a pretty specific group and the FDA will be like "k".
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 13 2016 19:20 GMT
#72015
On April 14 2016 04:18 Ghostcom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2016 04:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
FDA approval doesn't go much past "it's safe" though

Should be a rule that all studies for a drug need to come out (not just the favorable ones) and an independent board of scientists should review the findings


If we are talking medical approval it also needs to be efficacious.

This is the real issue. What is the FDA going to do beyond say "Yep, that is a bunch of vitamin C you have there. Some amount of that will be used if someone ingests that thing."
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8010 Posts
April 13 2016 19:21 GMT
#72016
Oh sorry to interrupt but this is too good:


Though the tendency to laugh at Ted Cruz’s (admittedly laughable) legal efforts to deny Texans the ability to purchase “marital aids” – as they are often called in conservative circles – is an irresistible one, the case in which Cruz’s office compared the use of sex toys with “hiring a willing prostitute or engaging in consensual bigamy” and suggested that there is a state interest in “discouraging prurient interests in autonomous sex and the pursuit of sexual gratification unrelated to procreation” (ie, a government interest in limiting masturbation and sex for pleasure) is no laughing matter.

What you have – besides the basis for a number of deeply satisfying giggle fits on the basis of his asserted hypocrisy – is a presidential candidate running on the platform of being a “constitutional conservative” interested in limited government who, not so long ago, argued before the courts that it was in the government’s interest to limit its citizens’ preferred methods of consensual sexual gratification, and who further argued that the sale of sex toys was akin to pimping.

This was not, let it be said, a simple semantic argument: at issue in the case were women like Joanne Webb, a 43-year-old mother of three children who was prosecuted by the state of Texas because, rather than marketing a vibrator as a funny novelty item no one would ever use, explained to two undercover cops how to use it to enhance their (fake) sex life as a married couple.

But beyond the Cruz connection, it’s interesting to note that the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in favor of the randy masses in 2008 by asserting:

An individual who wants to legally use a safe sexual device during private intimate moments alone or with another is unable to legally purchase a device in Texas, which heavily burdens a constitutional right.

That same court ruled in 2015 that Texas’s anti-abortion TRAP laws, designed to reduce the number of clinics at which Texas women can obtain legal abortion services, did not impose enough of an undue burden on enough women to justify throwing out the Texas law. The US supreme court heard arguments in that case in March and is expected to rule later this year.


source: www.theguardian.com

And the tweet of the century:

The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
April 13 2016 19:28 GMT
#72017
"Jerkin' Ted" has a pretty nice ring to it.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
April 13 2016 19:29 GMT
#72018
On April 14 2016 04:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Oh sorry to interrupt but this is too good:

Show nested quote +

Though the tendency to laugh at Ted Cruz’s (admittedly laughable) legal efforts to deny Texans the ability to purchase “marital aids” – as they are often called in conservative circles – is an irresistible one, the case in which Cruz’s office compared the use of sex toys with “hiring a willing prostitute or engaging in consensual bigamy” and suggested that there is a state interest in “discouraging prurient interests in autonomous sex and the pursuit of sexual gratification unrelated to procreation” (ie, a government interest in limiting masturbation and sex for pleasure) is no laughing matter.

What you have – besides the basis for a number of deeply satisfying giggle fits on the basis of his asserted hypocrisy – is a presidential candidate running on the platform of being a “constitutional conservative” interested in limited government who, not so long ago, argued before the courts that it was in the government’s interest to limit its citizens’ preferred methods of consensual sexual gratification, and who further argued that the sale of sex toys was akin to pimping.

This was not, let it be said, a simple semantic argument: at issue in the case were women like Joanne Webb, a 43-year-old mother of three children who was prosecuted by the state of Texas because, rather than marketing a vibrator as a funny novelty item no one would ever use, explained to two undercover cops how to use it to enhance their (fake) sex life as a married couple.

But beyond the Cruz connection, it’s interesting to note that the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in favor of the randy masses in 2008 by asserting:

An individual who wants to legally use a safe sexual device during private intimate moments alone or with another is unable to legally purchase a device in Texas, which heavily burdens a constitutional right.

That same court ruled in 2015 that Texas’s anti-abortion TRAP laws, designed to reduce the number of clinics at which Texas women can obtain legal abortion services, did not impose enough of an undue burden on enough women to justify throwing out the Texas law. The US supreme court heard arguments in that case in March and is expected to rule later this year.


source: www.theguardian.com

And the tweet of the century:

https://twitter.com/clmazin/status/720259227067920385


dead
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 13 2016 19:32 GMT
#72019
Ok, I was pretty much convinced Twitter was a bight on mankind, but this single tweet has redeemed it.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 13 2016 19:33 GMT
#72020
Promoters of "Christian values" and hypocrisy go hand-in-hand far too often for any moral failings of Cruz to be a surprise to me.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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