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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3392

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
March 18 2016 16:45 GMT
#67821
It's highly unlikely that this will result in a conviction. Beyond precedent (Colin Powell used a personal emails, aides to Condolezza Rice did as well), the FBI would have to recommend an indictment to the Justice Department, and the Attorney-General (who is incidentally appointed by Obama) would then have to decide whether to press the charges or not. Whatever happens, it becomes a political circus as opposed to any real dispensation of justice, given previous convictions for use of a different email account (or lack thereof). The FBI recommending an indictment given the likely outcome is highly unlikely as it would be nothing but political, and the Justice Department pushing forward on the recommendation even more unlikely.


There's also the issue of our system of classifying information is hopelessly antiquated (the core of it dating back to either 1917 or the 1950s) and in desperate need of reform. Overclassification remains a rampant problem.

I believe there was a bill that was proposed in 2011 aimed at reforming the system, but it died in Congress.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 18 2016 16:51 GMT
#67822
On March 19 2016 01:22 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2016 01:07 ticklishmusic wrote:
On March 19 2016 00:53 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 19 2016 00:50 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On March 19 2016 00:30 Gorsameth wrote:
On March 18 2016 23:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
California's insurance exchange is threatening to cut hospitals from its networks for poor performance or high costs, a novel proposal that is drawing heavy fire from medical providers and insurers.

The goal is to boost the overall quality of patient care and make coverage more affordable, said Peter Lee, executive director of the Covered California exchange.

"The first few years were about getting people in the door for coverage," said Lee, a key figure in the rollout of the federal health law. "We are now shifting our attention to changing the underlying delivery system to make it more cost effective and higher quality. We don't want to throw anyone out, but we don't want to pay for bad quality care either."

It appears to be the first proposal of its kind in the country. The exchange's five-member board is slated to vote on it next month. If approved, insurers would need to identify hospital "outliers" on cost and quality starting in 2018. Medical groups and doctors would be rated after that.

Providers who don't measure up stand to lose insured patients and suffer a black eye that could sully their reputations with employers and other big customers.

By 2019, health plans would be expected to expel poor performers from their exchange networks.


Source

Good, if they want that sweet government insurance money for their treatments they should deliver good cost/quality.


I think the general idea is good, and it does look like they are at least recognizing the need to adjust for case mix (for example any hospital that is a big dialysis center will immediately be a cost outlier no matter how efficiently they try to save) and they also aren't going to shut down providers if they're the only ones providing care in an area (which also makes them more likely to be an outlier in quality due to the economic distress in areas like that).

A quick glance at the actual proposal seems like they're pawning the analytics off on the insurers, though, which I am not as big a fan of.

It has to be done with care, certainly but atleast they are making an effort and that alone is to commended, esp when it seems no one else is.
People are in a terrible position to negotiate the cost of healthcare, it has to come from either the insurance or the government.


It's very hard to get transparency data, and IIRC a lot of providers expressly forbid insurance co's from doing price and quality comparisons in their contracts since it has an impact on their business.

There have been a few initiatives, like one led by the Cleveland Clinic awhile back but it collapsed. I think it was because the Cleveland Clinic was shown to less impressive than their reputation suggests.

Which is why such initiatives have to come from those with power. If the government or large insurance companies tell a hospital they can either provide insight into their cost/quality or not receive their customers anymore then they have little choice but the comply.

ps.
How is 'Free market healthcare' supposed to work when they forbid cost/quality comparisons? The entire basis of free market rests upon openness of information to allow consumers to make the best choice.


Conflicting interests. Also no one cared until recently because they were insulated from deductibles. The ACA uncovered a lot of these underlying problems.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
March 18 2016 16:52 GMT
#67823
On March 19 2016 01:29 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2016 01:20 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On March 18 2016 23:41 Plansix wrote:
On March 18 2016 23:33 Mohdoo wrote:
Cool thing is that if Clinton isn't indicted now, we know for sure she won't be during the general. And really, even disregarding the fact that she's clearly safe, she's a Clinton. You think a Clinton is going to jail? It's not possible. Guilty or not, sadly but actually thankfully in this specific case lolol. Especially at her age, especially being the presidential frontrunner. It just ain't happenin.

If David Petraeus didn’t get jail time, there is no chance Clinton will. And I don’t even know if they will charge her. I don’t think they can charge her alone. Other people would need to be charged. And I don’t really see much of a gain for the FBI or justice department beyond creating a political football.


I'm curious, since you frequently use Patreus as a benchmark here - do you believe Patreus should have gotten jail time? If so, wouldn't it follow that Hillary (and all others who are complicit in the same type of activity - cuz you're right, it's a wide spread problem) should also? That is, of course, assuming that the investigation determines that charges should be filed - if they're not, it's a moot point.

In an ideal world (because I can acknowledge one reality while still striving for a different one), shouldn't accountability matter? If wrong-doing is determined, shouldn't we avoid brushing things to the side "cuz lots of people do it"? That's how I feel for all public officials - politicians, police, etc. Obviously we're not in an ideal world, and I don't entirely disagree that charging tons of people is a pipe dream of an endeavor. But security issues don't get addressed by lowering the standards.

+ Show Spoiler +
Tangentially related, we've had an absurd number of security patches and updates at work recently, and it's annoying as hell.

Because the core of the case is her releasing top secret information or putting it as risk of being released. It has not been proven that she released the information, only that she had a private server that put that put a small amount of information(6 emails) at risk.

In contrast David Petraeus released top secret information to his mistress and did so knowingly. She was not authorized to have that information and it was a crime. He was charged and received probation, while also having to resign. I don't think he should have gotten jail time, but I would be upset if Clinton was charged with anything more severe than what he was charged with. I personally think this is all a huge waste of time.

Of course the final details are different, but the core of the case is putting top secret information as risk. One was done intentionally, while the other was due to poor practices and we cannot confirm any information was released.

And of course I think people should be held accountable, but it should be everyone. Not just the democratic front runner. And I don’t think poor practices that happened under the review of the NSA should be the sole fault that person. The NSA should be clamping down on this shit, not expect civilian elected or appointed officials build their offices around security requirements. This isn’t fixing the problem, it’s a politically motivated witch hunt.


Sure, I don't disagree that a not-insignificant portion of the focus is because she is Hillary. How would you go about it differently to address the systemic problem?

The NSA should be clamping down on this shit, not expect civilian elected or appointed officials build their offices around security requirements.


I'm sure exactly sure what you mean here. Are you saying the NSA should be moving in to ensure compliance of their security requirements throughout the whole system? I would agree with that.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 18 2016 16:55 GMT
#67824
Yes, congress should be addressing these issues by updating security in government agencies, sending money doing so and updating policies. But they haven’t and are working with a dated system where everyone is forced to risk violating the rules or doing their job. But that isn’t what congress is doing, its try to pin this issue on Clinton because….well we know exactly why they are doing that.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 17:11:59
March 18 2016 16:58 GMT
#67825
unrelated to the above, but related to thread in general:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/primary-turnout-means-nothing-for-the-general-election/

basicly what people have been saying in here. High primary turn-out really doesn't say a lot by itself. Interesting read nontheless

[image loading]

lol, those numbers are only going to climb higher as time goes on, right?
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43558 Posts
March 18 2016 17:12 GMT
#67826
If Trump was getting record turnouts all voting his way that'd be one thing. But when you have two large crowds, one very pro-Trump, one voting to try and stop Trump, you can't extrapolate that he'll have both supporting him in the general.

I don't think there is no relationship but I don't think the relationship is as simple as "if one is high the other will be too". Obama's 2008 primary turnout was certainly prophetic of the election but that's because they were getting out to vote for him. A lot of Republican voters are getting out there to vote against Trump which is unlikely to help him come the election.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
March 18 2016 17:14 GMT
#67827
On March 19 2016 01:55 Plansix wrote:
Yes, congress should be addressing these issues by updating security in government agencies, sending money doing so and updating policies. But they haven’t and are working with a dated system where everyone is forced to risk violating the rules or doing their job. But that isn’t what congress is doing, its try to pin this issue on Clinton because….well we know exactly why they are doing that.

How the fuck does Clinton end up the victim here? that's some next level logic twist.
liftlift > tsm
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15736 Posts
March 18 2016 17:15 GMT
#67828
On March 19 2016 02:12 KwarK wrote:
If Trump was getting record turnouts all voting his way that'd be one thing. But when you have two large crowds, one very pro-Trump, one voting to try and stop Trump, you can't extrapolate that he'll have both supporting him in the general.

I don't think there is no relationship but I don't think the relationship is as simple as "if one is high the other will be too". Obama's 2008 primary turnout was certainly prophetic of the election but that's because they were getting out to vote for him. A lot of Republican voters are getting out there to vote against Trump which is unlikely to help him come the election.


I mean, how could a large number NOT be against Trump? They have wheeled in every single person they think Republicans might listen to, calling for the end of Trump. Clearly that reached at least some people.
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
March 18 2016 17:16 GMT
#67829
On March 18 2016 11:32 Doraemon wrote:
can someone explain how this whole merrick thing will negatively affect the republicans? is it just the whole public image of them that's going to lose them votes, being portrayed as obstructionists


Merrick affecting republicans is purely just an angle of attack but is itself not a thing that hurts them.

Its more a way to force the conversation to be shifted away from the main topic.

GOP: But blah blah
DEM: Well blah blah Merrick!
GOP: Not merrick, we are actually blah blah
DEM: Obstructionist Merrick Obstructionist
GOP: We are actually-
DEM: Obstructionist

Suddenly the discourse becomes focused on what the GOP is not doing instead of what they are promising to do. A god example is Trump.

TRUMP: something racist/misogynist
GOP: Trump bad
MEDIA: Trump so bad
DEM: Trump bad
GOP: Back on topic
MEDIA: But trump so bad
GOP: I know but-
MEDIA: Look how bad trump is
GOP: But trump blah blah
DEM: Trump also blah blah
MEDIA: Trump definitely is blah blah
VOTERS: Who's running again?
TRUMP: Muslims
VOTERS: I don't want muslim president!
MEDIA: Trump so racist
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 18 2016 17:19 GMT
#67830
Thousands of US government employees under permanent surveillance are being investigated for signs of “greed”, “ego”, money worries, disgruntlement or other flaws in the hope of intercepting the next big official leak, according to a document obtained by Chelsea Manning.

The extent of the government’s internal surveillance system designed to prevent massive leaks of the sort linked to WikiLeaks and the former NSA contractor Edward Snowden is revealed in the document, published here by the Guardian for the first time. The US soldier, who is serving 35 years in military prison as the source of the 2010 WikiLeaks disclosure of secret state documents, requested her own intelligence file under freedom of information laws.

The file was compiled under the “Insider Threat” program that was set up by President Obama in the wake of Manning’s disclosures. The file shows that officials have been using Manning’s story as a case study from which they have built a profile of the modern official leaker in the hope of catching future disclosures before they happen.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
March 18 2016 17:21 GMT
#67831
On March 19 2016 02:19 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Thousands of US government employees under permanent surveillance are being investigated for signs of “greed”, “ego”, money worries, disgruntlement or other flaws in the hope of intercepting the next big official leak, according to a document obtained by Chelsea Manning.

The extent of the government’s internal surveillance system designed to prevent massive leaks of the sort linked to WikiLeaks and the former NSA contractor Edward Snowden is revealed in the document, published here by the Guardian for the first time. The US soldier, who is serving 35 years in military prison as the source of the 2010 WikiLeaks disclosure of secret state documents, requested her own intelligence file under freedom of information laws.

The file was compiled under the “Insider Threat” program that was set up by President Obama in the wake of Manning’s disclosures. The file shows that officials have been using Manning’s story as a case study from which they have built a profile of the modern official leaker in the hope of catching future disclosures before they happen.


Source

1984 gets closer and closer.
liftlift > tsm
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 18 2016 17:29 GMT
#67832
That is news? You can lose security clearance from having to much credit card debt.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 17:36:34
March 18 2016 17:36 GMT
#67833
I have a friend who works for the Air Force as an analyst of some sort. Apparently they periodically polygraph her and ask if she's a terrorist.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15736 Posts
March 18 2016 17:39 GMT
#67834
On March 19 2016 02:36 ticklishmusic wrote:
I have a friend who works for the Air Force as an analyst of some sort. Apparently they periodically polygraph her and ask if she's a terrorist.


Same with my uncle in the CIA, except not pertaining to terrorism. Did you tell your wife this did you tell your wife that etc etc.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
March 18 2016 17:47 GMT
#67835
aren't polygraphs completely unscientific? I always thought they only did this in movies
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 18 2016 17:48 GMT
#67836
They are indeed unsound; for some stupid reason they're still used in the US in a number of places.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 18 2016 17:48 GMT
#67837
They are not admissible in court. They still use them because they have some level of accuracy and that is all they care about.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 17:50:05
March 18 2016 17:49 GMT
#67838
polygraphs are mostly about change in physiological reaction relative to a baseline, so if you ask the same question every year you can expect the same rough reading unless something dramatic happened (she became a terrorist)

that is to say, polygraphs are probably most accurate for detecting whether or not someone's answer to the same question has changed over a period
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 18 2016 17:49 GMT
#67839
I think the surveillance is more closely connected to the many high level US military officers who have been discharged when it was revealed they had massive gambling problems or other vices that made them susceptible to extortion or recruitment to foreign intelligence services (for example, see the case of Rear Adm. Timothy M. Giardina). I actually think the US is rather complacent in its screening procedures even now, compared to many allies.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 17:51:28
March 18 2016 17:50 GMT
#67840
On March 19 2016 02:47 Nyxisto wrote:
aren't polygraphs completely unscientific? I always thought they only did this in movies


Yup.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
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