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On March 17 2016 23:22 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
Mainstream democrats' expectation that Bernie supporters will simply tow the party line and fully support Hillary at this point are misplaced and unreasonable. Hillary represents much of what Bernie is diametrically opposed to. It made sense to go ham on her up until the math stopped being feasible. When he crossed the line of needing a 57-43 average win across *every state*, including (large) states she is currently positioned to win, it became madness. If he had even a glimmer of hope, maybe. But when the campaign is being run for symbolic reasons, it doesn't make sense to keep attacking the winner.
I think Bernie is thinking long term. This is his Goldwater moment. He's not going to win the election (or the nomination), but he is going to inspire a new generation of democrats (ie all of the young people that are supporting him over Hillary) that will eventually reshape the party in his own image. That's his end game.
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On March 17 2016 23:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 22:49 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 15:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
I have a feeling while Hillary is going to be losing states and taking shots from Trump, Hillary supporters are going to miss Bernie Sanders supporters and our "artful smears".
I just hope Trump hops on the #ReleaseTheTranscripts train and pushes her to shut down her superPAC since she's the only contender who still has one at this point.
Y'all thought we had a tenuous relationship with reality, we got nothing on Trump supporters. TBH I personally just expected better from Bernie and supporters. Maybe I shouldn't have? Does it bother you that the post in which you're disappointed in Bernie supporters because you thought they would stay civil and not attack her over legitimate concerns is located in the middle of a string of posts in which your camp mocks and smears ours generally for wanting good things?
For my part, I have consistently questioned the viability of Sanders' plans. I think most of those here who identify as progressive, liberal, whatever are in agreement that Bernie's goals/ the problems he wants to address are laudable (and basically the same as Hillary's, let's not fool ourselves), though the means he proposes are not. Both want improved healthcare. Both want regulation of high finance. Both want improved education access. The closest I've done is called out people for naivete and ignoring policy considerations.
What has grown extremely tiresome is the tendency of Bernie supporters to declare that Hillary is actually a right-winger and that's she's a s stereotypical corrupt inept evil mastermind, though I suppose with the nature of online echo chambers I see how that idea propagates. The revolution became a campaign and the campaign was lost when Bernie decided to focus on Hillary and not his message.
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On March 17 2016 23:27 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:20 farvacola wrote:On March 17 2016 23:14 Acrofales wrote:On March 17 2016 23:07 farvacola wrote:
^that's not unique to the left at all....... Not sure he's saying it is. But he's right about it happening, and it being kinda dumb. I'm not sure it's fair to regard the tendency of the more ideologically fervent segments of a party as "dumb" because they desire a more "pure" candidate. Sure, that can harm that party's chances of electing a candidate, but that's how consensus works, though that fact seems to elude many of this threads democrats. What would you say is *not* dumb about failing to recognize the diversity of our country? People who freak out about super "pure" candidates are not taking a moment to realize this is an election with a wide range of voters. A lot of people have heard a lot about Bernie and still do not like what he has to say. It is dumb because it is, quite frankly, ignorant. It isn't a realistic perspective. Huckabee isn't getting elected. Cruz isn't getting elected. Sanders isn't getting elected either. When a candidate is so extreme in a certain way, it is not reasonable to expect a massive range of views to support that. That's the point of being extreme, you are very far from the average. When you consider what % of our country thinks very poorly of socialism, the idea of running a campaign that says socialism is better than capitalism is just madness. I've always said Bernie's campaign was dead the moment he said socialism. The "dumb" people do not realize how true that is because of how diverse our country is. It is blind, unrealistic nonsense to have ever expected Bernie to be president.
Sanders doesn't need to get elected in order for his campaign to have been effective, though you're too busy being scared that Bernie ruined Hillary's chances to even consider such a thing. That's ok, the Republicans are scary, I get it, but that doesn't mean that painting every Sanders supporter as a stupid saboteur is a good or even a reasonable idea.
On March 17 2016 23:27 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:22 Mohdoo wrote:On March 17 2016 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
Mainstream democrats' expectation that Bernie supporters will simply tow the party line and fully support Hillary at this point are misplaced and unreasonable. Hillary represents much of what Bernie is diametrically opposed to. It made sense to go ham on her up until the math stopped being feasible. When he crossed the line of needing a 57-43 average win across *every state*, including (large) states she is currently positioned to win, it became madness. If he had even a glimmer of hope, maybe. But when the campaign is being run for symbolic reasons, it doesn't make sense to keep attacking the winner. I think Bernie is thinking long term. This is his Goldwater moment. He's not going to win the election (or the nomination), but he is going to inspire a new generation of democrats (ie all of the young people that are supporting him over Hillary) that will eventually reshape the party in his own image. That's his end game.
Bernie is not socialist Trump; he clearly doesn't give a fuck about his own image lol. But yes, he is definitely thinking long-term.
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On March 17 2016 23:31 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2016 22:49 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 15:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
I have a feeling while Hillary is going to be losing states and taking shots from Trump, Hillary supporters are going to miss Bernie Sanders supporters and our "artful smears".
I just hope Trump hops on the #ReleaseTheTranscripts train and pushes her to shut down her superPAC since she's the only contender who still has one at this point.
Y'all thought we had a tenuous relationship with reality, we got nothing on Trump supporters. TBH I personally just expected better from Bernie and supporters. Maybe I shouldn't have? Does it bother you that the post in which you're disappointed in Bernie supporters because you thought they would stay civil and not attack her over legitimate concerns is located in the middle of a string of posts in which your camp mocks and smears ours generally for wanting good things? For my part, I have consistently questioned the viability of Sanders' plans. I think most of those here who identify as progressive, liberal, whatever are in agreement that Bernie's goals/ the problems he wants to address are laudable (and basically the same as Hillary's, let's not fool ourselves), though the means he proposes are not. Both want improved healthcare. Both want regulation of high finance. Both want improved education access. The closest I've done is called out people for naivete and ignoring policy considerations. What has grown extremely tiresome is the tendency of Bernie supporters to declare that Hillary is actually a right-winger and that's she's a s stereotypical corrupt inept evil mastermind, though I suppose with the nature of online echo chambers I see how that idea propagates.
Well she is a right winger. She's not a republican, of course, she isn't far right, but she isn't actually a socialist. Right now she's campaining on a lot of left-leaning ideas but she's clearly going to stay in line with Obama politics and she has said so herself. Is it better than a republican? Unquestionably, and like I said I would vote for her over Trump any day. But she won't go left any more than she needs to.
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On March 17 2016 23:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:31 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 23:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2016 22:49 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 15:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
I have a feeling while Hillary is going to be losing states and taking shots from Trump, Hillary supporters are going to miss Bernie Sanders supporters and our "artful smears".
I just hope Trump hops on the #ReleaseTheTranscripts train and pushes her to shut down her superPAC since she's the only contender who still has one at this point.
Y'all thought we had a tenuous relationship with reality, we got nothing on Trump supporters. TBH I personally just expected better from Bernie and supporters. Maybe I shouldn't have? Does it bother you that the post in which you're disappointed in Bernie supporters because you thought they would stay civil and not attack her over legitimate concerns is located in the middle of a string of posts in which your camp mocks and smears ours generally for wanting good things? For my part, I have consistently questioned the viability of Sanders' plans. I think most of those here who identify as progressive, liberal, whatever are in agreement that Bernie's goals/ the problems he wants to address are laudable (and basically the same as Hillary's, let's not fool ourselves), though the means he proposes are not. Both want improved healthcare. Both want regulation of high finance. Both want improved education access. The closest I've done is called out people for naivete and ignoring policy considerations. What has grown extremely tiresome is the tendency of Bernie supporters to declare that Hillary is actually a right-winger and that's she's a s stereotypical corrupt inept evil mastermind, though I suppose with the nature of online echo chambers I see how that idea propagates. Well she is a right winger. She's not a republican, of course, she isn't far right, but she isn't actually a socialist. Right now she's campaining on a lot of left-leaning ideas but she's clearly going to stay in line with Obama politics and she has said so herself. Is it better than a republican? Unquestionably, and like I said I would vote for her over Trump any day. But she won't go left any more than she needs to.
The implicit accusation is that us Hillary supporters are also right-wingers or delude themselves into thinking she's not... all I can say is no true Scotsman and ideological purity tests and labels are dumb.
Hillary has been, for the most part, a couple steps left of center her entire career. The center has shifted and so has she. I see no problem with that as opposed to standing so far to the left that few will take you seriously.
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On March 17 2016 23:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:31 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 23:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2016 22:49 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 15:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
I have a feeling while Hillary is going to be losing states and taking shots from Trump, Hillary supporters are going to miss Bernie Sanders supporters and our "artful smears".
I just hope Trump hops on the #ReleaseTheTranscripts train and pushes her to shut down her superPAC since she's the only contender who still has one at this point.
Y'all thought we had a tenuous relationship with reality, we got nothing on Trump supporters. TBH I personally just expected better from Bernie and supporters. Maybe I shouldn't have? Does it bother you that the post in which you're disappointed in Bernie supporters because you thought they would stay civil and not attack her over legitimate concerns is located in the middle of a string of posts in which your camp mocks and smears ours generally for wanting good things? For my part, I have consistently questioned the viability of Sanders' plans. I think most of those here who identify as progressive, liberal, whatever are in agreement that Bernie's goals/ the problems he wants to address are laudable (and basically the same as Hillary's, let's not fool ourselves), though the means he proposes are not. Both want improved healthcare. Both want regulation of high finance. Both want improved education access. The closest I've done is called out people for naivete and ignoring policy considerations. What has grown extremely tiresome is the tendency of Bernie supporters to declare that Hillary is actually a right-winger and that's she's a s stereotypical corrupt inept evil mastermind, though I suppose with the nature of online echo chambers I see how that idea propagates. But she won't go left any more than she needs to.
Because that's how you win an election. Primaries always have and always will be a race to center while still managing to actually win the primary. You start out being completely insanely partisan, then slowly inch back towards electable. As I have said, the country is super diverse. You simply can't win by being super conservative or super liberal.
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United States43277 Posts
On March 17 2016 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
Mainstream democrats' expectation that Bernie supporters will simply tow the party line and fully support Hillary at this point are misplaced and unreasonable. Hillary represents much of what Bernie is diametrically opposed to.
I see no issues with Hillary as a vote against Trump. My feelings about Trump not being president are stronger than my feelings about Bernie being president. That said I won't be able to vote for another 13 months or so.
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Bernie isn't a strong candidate and he never was. He has a very strong niche appeal to the slim 25% portion of the country that isn't stuck in a world where socialism is the coming of the apocalypse, but other than that Hillary and the Republican candidates have more widespread appeal. The only reason he has done as well as he had is that Hillary is so bad and no one trusts her to do what is best for the country. Furthermore, if the Republican Party weren't so mind-numbingly bad for everything that the idea of another Republican president is unpalatable to many key voters, then maybe we'd see a president from that side be a more likely proposition.
So we have Hillary, a candidate with pretty niche appeal and somewhat questionable policies, and a dying obstructionist party. Hillary is obviously the best of the bunch but far from good. If the candidate pool were stronger then Hillary wouldn't even be in the running.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
With a bit of luck Sanders will do some kind of campaign by the time congress reelections rolls around, not sure what it would entail but that could do something maybe.
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On March 17 2016 23:38 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:36 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2016 23:31 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 23:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2016 22:49 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 15:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
I have a feeling while Hillary is going to be losing states and taking shots from Trump, Hillary supporters are going to miss Bernie Sanders supporters and our "artful smears".
I just hope Trump hops on the #ReleaseTheTranscripts train and pushes her to shut down her superPAC since she's the only contender who still has one at this point.
Y'all thought we had a tenuous relationship with reality, we got nothing on Trump supporters. TBH I personally just expected better from Bernie and supporters. Maybe I shouldn't have? Does it bother you that the post in which you're disappointed in Bernie supporters because you thought they would stay civil and not attack her over legitimate concerns is located in the middle of a string of posts in which your camp mocks and smears ours generally for wanting good things? For my part, I have consistently questioned the viability of Sanders' plans. I think most of those here who identify as progressive, liberal, whatever are in agreement that Bernie's goals/ the problems he wants to address are laudable (and basically the same as Hillary's, let's not fool ourselves), though the means he proposes are not. Both want improved healthcare. Both want regulation of high finance. Both want improved education access. The closest I've done is called out people for naivete and ignoring policy considerations. What has grown extremely tiresome is the tendency of Bernie supporters to declare that Hillary is actually a right-winger and that's she's a s stereotypical corrupt inept evil mastermind, though I suppose with the nature of online echo chambers I see how that idea propagates. Well she is a right winger. She's not a republican, of course, she isn't far right, but she isn't actually a socialist. Right now she's campaining on a lot of left-leaning ideas but she's clearly going to stay in line with Obama politics and she has said so herself. Is it better than a republican? Unquestionably, and like I said I would vote for her over Trump any day. But she won't go left any more than she needs to. The implicit accusation is that us Hillary supporters are also right-wingers or delude themselves into thinking she's not...
I don't think that was implicit... And I also don't think being a moderate on the right is that much of an accusation, I think being moderate (world scale not american scale) is much more important than being left or right wing.
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On March 17 2016 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
Mainstream democrats' expectation that Bernie supporters will simply tow the party line and fully support Hillary at this point are misplaced and unreasonable. Hillary represents much of what Bernie is diametrically opposed to.
It's not unreasonable to expect Bernie supporters to fully support Hillary when push comes to shove, but I do agree it is unreasonable to expect them to so while Bernie can still stick around to further his message.
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On March 17 2016 14:59 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 14:32 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 17 2016 14:12 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 17 2016 14:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 17 2016 13:42 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Lets get one thing clear here.
Trump is being attacked because he is a huge threat to the establishment. That's one of the many reasons, yes. Its the primary reason. It has nothing to do with the blatantly racist and sexist shit he says? Or the fact that he actively advocates for violating people's human rights? Or that he advocates for borderline fascist government policies? Nope, sure doesn't have anything to do with any of that shit. It's all just because he's anti-establishment. /s What racist comment did he say? It must have been pretty blatant and not taken out of context. He has a lot of black and latino endorsements now. He must have said something really bad for that to happen. + Show Spoiler +Sexist? Man who hires women to head construction is sexist? I implore you to stop reading media headlines and do some research. The man is tough, but fair. And he knows how to bring the banter and get a rise out of people. That doesn't prove sexism. A bit of a bully? Sure. But it's worked. You don't have to worry about him being presidential in the future. He's already assured us that he has the best words. I think he's proven over his lifetime he's not really racist. And he's not really sexist. Come on, Oprah loves the man. Get real arguments because the days of calling people racist, homophobic, and misogynists when they have real arguments to counter yours are over.
Your argument for why trump isn't racist or sexist:
1. Some black people support him
2. Some women support him
3. He hired women in some important positions
None of those things preclude him from being racist or sexist. It's basically the "I have black friends so I'm not racist" argument. And we have plenty of quotes and actions from trump over the years, which speak for themselves and are not taken out of context, to suggest racism and sexism. I posted a litany before which I could go find but really it shouldn't need further explanation.
But I find it pretty funny that you buy into trump's lines hook line and sinker. "I hired some women in construction", and there was another gem from earlier that I can't remember right now, but it's one of trump's dumb lines where he's trying to prove something about himself, and it's tantamount to palin's "I can see Russia" claim.
Your reasoning also morphs around in response to what people say which I think shows that in those instances you have no choice but to concede, and you end up going back to reasoning you previously used but then had to concede on at that time. For example, saying trump is not a liar, then he kind of is but it works politically, then all candidates are total liars but trump is focused on the right issues.
Overall I think your defense of trump is devoid of foundation. I see it time and time again with trump supporters, where they make some claims in total defense of trump and then walk them back and morph into a different argument after hearing the obvious counter point to what thy said. For example another guy said since trump is a buyer not a seller of influence, he's the right man to tear down the status quo, which ignores that he helped to establish the status quo (key word establish, that being the root of the word establishment, which includes under its umbrella big political donors).
Please consider whether there's room to separate media exaggeration of trump from him being a bad person, who throughout his life has pursued power and wealth by any means possible.
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On March 17 2016 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:38 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 23:36 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2016 23:31 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 23:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2016 22:49 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 15:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
I have a feeling while Hillary is going to be losing states and taking shots from Trump, Hillary supporters are going to miss Bernie Sanders supporters and our "artful smears".
I just hope Trump hops on the #ReleaseTheTranscripts train and pushes her to shut down her superPAC since she's the only contender who still has one at this point.
Y'all thought we had a tenuous relationship with reality, we got nothing on Trump supporters. TBH I personally just expected better from Bernie and supporters. Maybe I shouldn't have? Does it bother you that the post in which you're disappointed in Bernie supporters because you thought they would stay civil and not attack her over legitimate concerns is located in the middle of a string of posts in which your camp mocks and smears ours generally for wanting good things? For my part, I have consistently questioned the viability of Sanders' plans. I think most of those here who identify as progressive, liberal, whatever are in agreement that Bernie's goals/ the problems he wants to address are laudable (and basically the same as Hillary's, let's not fool ourselves), though the means he proposes are not. Both want improved healthcare. Both want regulation of high finance. Both want improved education access. The closest I've done is called out people for naivete and ignoring policy considerations. What has grown extremely tiresome is the tendency of Bernie supporters to declare that Hillary is actually a right-winger and that's she's a s stereotypical corrupt inept evil mastermind, though I suppose with the nature of online echo chambers I see how that idea propagates. Well she is a right winger. She's not a republican, of course, she isn't far right, but she isn't actually a socialist. Right now she's campaining on a lot of left-leaning ideas but she's clearly going to stay in line with Obama politics and she has said so herself. Is it better than a republican? Unquestionably, and like I said I would vote for her over Trump any day. But she won't go left any more than she needs to. The implicit accusation is that us Hillary supporters are also right-wingers or delude themselves into thinking she's not... I don't think that was implicit... And I also don't think being a moderate on the right is that much of an accusation, I think being moderate (world scale not american scale) is much more important than being left or right wing.
The world scale is kind of irrelevant. It ignores a vast amount of cultural and what I'll call structural context. The U.S. is very different from Norway, the UK or whatever other developed nation you would care to cite, and a lot of ideas and systems in those other places just won't work unless you can engineer a shift of the underlying context to match.
As I said, Hillary is a couple steps left of center. Bernie may pass for pretty moderate elsewhere, but it's not a meaningful comparison since this is the U.S.
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On March 17 2016 23:47 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
Mainstream democrats' expectation that Bernie supporters will simply tow the party line and fully support Hillary at this point are misplaced and unreasonable. Hillary represents much of what Bernie is diametrically opposed to. It's not unreasonable to expect Bernie supporters to fully support Hillary when push comes to shove, but I do agree it is unreasonable to expect them to so while Bernie can still stick around to further his message.
It is actually pretty unreasonable. Dems stay home if they don't like their own candidate. So them not voting for Hillary is very likely.
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United States43277 Posts
On March 17 2016 23:54 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:47 Sbrubbles wrote:On March 17 2016 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
Mainstream democrats' expectation that Bernie supporters will simply tow the party line and fully support Hillary at this point are misplaced and unreasonable. Hillary represents much of what Bernie is diametrically opposed to. It's not unreasonable to expect Bernie supporters to fully support Hillary when push comes to shove, but I do agree it is unreasonable to expect them to so while Bernie can still stick around to further his message. It is actually pretty unreasonable. Dems stay home if they don't like their own candidate. So them not voting for Hillary is very likely.
If Romney were the Republican candidate, maybe. You're really going to tell me there won't be a rally to vote against Trump though?
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On March 17 2016 23:54 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:47 Sbrubbles wrote:On March 17 2016 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
Mainstream democrats' expectation that Bernie supporters will simply tow the party line and fully support Hillary at this point are misplaced and unreasonable. Hillary represents much of what Bernie is diametrically opposed to. It's not unreasonable to expect Bernie supporters to fully support Hillary when push comes to shove, but I do agree it is unreasonable to expect them to so while Bernie can still stick around to further his message. It is actually pretty unreasonable. Dems stay home if they don't like their own candidate. So them not voting for Hillary is very likely.
But Donald Trump.
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On March 17 2016 23:56 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:54 LegalLord wrote:On March 17 2016 23:47 Sbrubbles wrote:On March 17 2016 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
Mainstream democrats' expectation that Bernie supporters will simply tow the party line and fully support Hillary at this point are misplaced and unreasonable. Hillary represents much of what Bernie is diametrically opposed to. It's not unreasonable to expect Bernie supporters to fully support Hillary when push comes to shove, but I do agree it is unreasonable to expect them to so while Bernie can still stick around to further his message. It is actually pretty unreasonable. Dems stay home if they don't like their own candidate. So them not voting for Hillary is very likely. If Romney were the Republican candidate, maybe. You're really going to tell me there won't be a rally to vote against Trump though?
A rally against a candidate gets people to stay home, not vote for the opposition. They won't want Trump but they won't exactly rally behind Hillary either.
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On March 17 2016 23:52 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2016 23:38 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 23:36 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2016 23:31 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 23:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2016 22:49 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 17 2016 15:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
I have a feeling while Hillary is going to be losing states and taking shots from Trump, Hillary supporters are going to miss Bernie Sanders supporters and our "artful smears".
I just hope Trump hops on the #ReleaseTheTranscripts train and pushes her to shut down her superPAC since she's the only contender who still has one at this point.
Y'all thought we had a tenuous relationship with reality, we got nothing on Trump supporters. TBH I personally just expected better from Bernie and supporters. Maybe I shouldn't have? Does it bother you that the post in which you're disappointed in Bernie supporters because you thought they would stay civil and not attack her over legitimate concerns is located in the middle of a string of posts in which your camp mocks and smears ours generally for wanting good things? For my part, I have consistently questioned the viability of Sanders' plans. I think most of those here who identify as progressive, liberal, whatever are in agreement that Bernie's goals/ the problems he wants to address are laudable (and basically the same as Hillary's, let's not fool ourselves), though the means he proposes are not. Both want improved healthcare. Both want regulation of high finance. Both want improved education access. The closest I've done is called out people for naivete and ignoring policy considerations. What has grown extremely tiresome is the tendency of Bernie supporters to declare that Hillary is actually a right-winger and that's she's a s stereotypical corrupt inept evil mastermind, though I suppose with the nature of online echo chambers I see how that idea propagates. Well she is a right winger. She's not a republican, of course, she isn't far right, but she isn't actually a socialist. Right now she's campaining on a lot of left-leaning ideas but she's clearly going to stay in line with Obama politics and she has said so herself. Is it better than a republican? Unquestionably, and like I said I would vote for her over Trump any day. But she won't go left any more than she needs to. The implicit accusation is that us Hillary supporters are also right-wingers or delude themselves into thinking she's not... I don't think that was implicit... And I also don't think being a moderate on the right is that much of an accusation, I think being moderate (world scale not american scale) is much more important than being left or right wing. The world scale is kind of irrelevant. It ignores a vast amount of cultural and what I'll call structural context. The U.S. is very different from Norway, the UK or whatever other developed nation you would care to cite, and a lot of ideas and systems in those other places just won't work unless you can engineer a shift of the underlying context to match. As I said, Hillary is a couple steps left of center. Bernie may pass for pretty moderate elsewhere, but it's not a meaningful comparison since this is the U.S.
And there was opportunity to change the US there, which is why you got so many foreign people like me interested in your election this time around. Ultimately we're saying basically the same thing: Hillary is a couple steps left of american center, which translates to moderate right wing on the world scale.
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On March 17 2016 23:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:56 KwarK wrote:On March 17 2016 23:54 LegalLord wrote:On March 17 2016 23:47 Sbrubbles wrote:On March 17 2016 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
Mainstream democrats' expectation that Bernie supporters will simply tow the party line and fully support Hillary at this point are misplaced and unreasonable. Hillary represents much of what Bernie is diametrically opposed to. It's not unreasonable to expect Bernie supporters to fully support Hillary when push comes to shove, but I do agree it is unreasonable to expect them to so while Bernie can still stick around to further his message. It is actually pretty unreasonable. Dems stay home if they don't like their own candidate. So them not voting for Hillary is very likely. If Romney were the Republican candidate, maybe. You're really going to tell me there won't be a rally to vote against Trump though? A rally against a candidate gets people to stay home, not vote for the opposition. They won't want Trump but they won't exactly rally behind Hillary either.
This presumes future knowledge of the general election that we simply do not have given Trump's unique impact on the process. Furthermore, it is simply baseless.
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United States43277 Posts
On March 17 2016 23:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 23:56 KwarK wrote:On March 17 2016 23:54 LegalLord wrote:On March 17 2016 23:47 Sbrubbles wrote:On March 17 2016 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
Mainstream democrats' expectation that Bernie supporters will simply tow the party line and fully support Hillary at this point are misplaced and unreasonable. Hillary represents much of what Bernie is diametrically opposed to. It's not unreasonable to expect Bernie supporters to fully support Hillary when push comes to shove, but I do agree it is unreasonable to expect them to so while Bernie can still stick around to further his message. It is actually pretty unreasonable. Dems stay home if they don't like their own candidate. So them not voting for Hillary is very likely. If Romney were the Republican candidate, maybe. You're really going to tell me there won't be a rally to vote against Trump though? A rally against a candidate gets people to stay home, not vote for the opposition. They won't want Trump but they won't exactly rally behind Hillary either.
You don't need to rally behind Hillary. You need to rally behind "anyone but Trump" which will propel Hillary to the White House. There is absolutely no requirement to support Hillary, or to want her to be president, to vote against Trump. In a two party system if you're against one candidate you are by default for the other.
The strength of feeling against Trump can be greater than the strength of feeling for Hillary and people will still get out there and vote. For those people Hillary isn't campaigning under her own name, she's campaigning as "not Trump".
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EPT
