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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On March 14 2016 12:54 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 12:49 IgnE wrote:On March 14 2016 12:08 kwizach wrote:On March 14 2016 12:02 JW_DTLA wrote: What are you two arguing about? Romney versus Trump primary electorate strength? They aren't really comparable because Romney dominated the field of people who wouldn't be Trumpkins, whereas Trumps dominance in low education low income Republicans is super strong. Overall, Romney had a lock solid hold on the deciding and thinking wings of the Republican party itself (the electeds, the apparatchiks, the media). I think that would give Romney the advantage. Also, Cruz is vastly more formidable than the comparatively sorry Not-Romneys. The point is that among the Republicans who did not vote for Romney for nominee in 2012, he was still a much more acceptable potential nominee than Trump is among the Republicans who did not vote for Trump for nominee in 2016. This article on 538 explains this pretty well. Also, Trump has the highest percentage of people who would either definitely (35%) or likely (13%) not support him in the general election as the Republican nominee among Republican voters who did not vote for him in the primary. So who is in a better position than Trump to be the nominee? I am not arguing that someone else in the current Republican primary is better positioned than Trump to be the nominee, as I just repeated on this very page.
So why should I care?
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On March 14 2016 12:55 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 12:02 JW_DTLA wrote: What are you two arguing about? Romney versus Trump primary electorate strength? They aren't really comparable because Romney dominated the field of people who wouldn't be Trumpkins, whereas Trumps dominance in low education low income Republicans is super strong. Overall, Romney had a lock solid hold on the deciding and thinking wings of the Republican party itself (the electeds, the apparatchiks, the media). I think that would give Romney the advantage. Also, Cruz is vastly more formidable than the comparatively sorry Not-Romneys. What's basically going on is I'm talking about the race for the GOP nomination and he's talking about the general election. I'm saying Trump is in shape for the former and he's saying Trump is weak when it comes to the latter.
I would say Trump's general election strength is unknowable. With so many professional Republicans (as I said earlier, the electeds, the apparatchiks, the media figures) committed to trying to stop him or running some insane convention shenanigans, we can't know how Trump would fare. Something could happen at the Republican convention that would change the whole calculus. Trump could win it handily and fairly, and many #neverTrump people could fall in line. Or the party could actually decide to trash this thing and nominate someone with less delegates than Trump (or Romney). Or Cruz could come up with a larger plurality than Trump and Trump launches a suicide splinter independent run with his Trumpkins (keep in mind Trump's unlimited insecurities, he will for sure launch an independent run no matter what he has said previously). These head to head polls for non-nominated candidates simply don't have all the information yet.
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Plans for a huge commercial development that would transform a tiny town near the edge of the Grand Canyon have been thrown out by federal officials in a surprise victory for conservation and indigenous interests – but campaigners warn that the world famous natural wonder remains in peril.
Tusayan, in northern Arizona, has a few low-key hotels and a population of just 560.
A mile from the entrance to Grand Canyon national park, it is the last settlement tourists pass through, if they even notice it, before entering the park to gawp into the spectacular sandstone abyss.
But an Italian developer has spent more than two decades hovering over this speck on the map with dreams of turning it into a bustling resort area with three million square feet of commercial facilities, including a tourist lodge, spa, cultural center, upscale shops, restaurants, holiday ranch, hotels and a few thousand new homes.
The scheme has caused a long-running, often bitter battle between local civic leaders supporting the developer, the Italian-owned Stilo Development Group USA, and environmental and Native American groups in opposition.
But a milestone decision has sent proponents of the development project reeling.
Heather Provencio, the new supervisor of a nearby chunk of national forest who needs to approve better road access across the federal land for the private development to go ahead, announced the plan was not in the public interest.
Source
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On March 14 2016 12:55 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 12:02 JW_DTLA wrote: What are you two arguing about? Romney versus Trump primary electorate strength? They aren't really comparable because Romney dominated the field of people who wouldn't be Trumpkins, whereas Trumps dominance in low education low income Republicans is super strong. Overall, Romney had a lock solid hold on the deciding and thinking wings of the Republican party itself (the electeds, the apparatchiks, the media). I think that would give Romney the advantage. Also, Cruz is vastly more formidable than the comparatively sorry Not-Romneys. What's basically going on is I'm talking about the race for the GOP nomination and he's talking about the general election. I'm saying Trump is in shape for the former and he's saying Trump is weak when it comes to the latter. No, what's "basically going on" is that I showed you why, although Trump looks like he'll be winning the nomination like Romney did, Romney was a stronger frontrunner in the Republican primary than Trump currently is, due to the fact that Republicans who did not vote for Romney in the primary were more likely to support him as the nominee than Republicans who did not vote for Trump are to support him as the nominee. What's "basically going on" is also that you misunderstood what Plansix was originally saying, and then lied about only talking about primary votes.
On March 14 2016 13:05 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 12:54 kwizach wrote:On March 14 2016 12:49 IgnE wrote:On March 14 2016 12:08 kwizach wrote:On March 14 2016 12:02 JW_DTLA wrote: What are you two arguing about? Romney versus Trump primary electorate strength? They aren't really comparable because Romney dominated the field of people who wouldn't be Trumpkins, whereas Trumps dominance in low education low income Republicans is super strong. Overall, Romney had a lock solid hold on the deciding and thinking wings of the Republican party itself (the electeds, the apparatchiks, the media). I think that would give Romney the advantage. Also, Cruz is vastly more formidable than the comparatively sorry Not-Romneys. The point is that among the Republicans who did not vote for Romney for nominee in 2012, he was still a much more acceptable potential nominee than Trump is among the Republicans who did not vote for Trump for nominee in 2016. This article on 538 explains this pretty well. Also, Trump has the highest percentage of people who would either definitely (35%) or likely (13%) not support him in the general election as the Republican nominee among Republican voters who did not vote for him in the primary. So who is in a better position than Trump to be the nominee? I am not arguing that someone else in the current Republican primary is better positioned than Trump to be the nominee, as I just repeated on this very page. So why should I care? Perhaps you should ask yourself that question, considering you're the one who decided to reply to me.
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You are the one who has spent 10 pages in the politics public thread arguing that this is an important point. I guess it's not important.
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On March 14 2016 10:54 JW_DTLA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 10:41 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On March 14 2016 08:40 JW_DTLA wrote: I am so done with these arguments over who was more liberal back in the 90s. A bunch of angels dancing on the head of a pin nonsense. What are you going to do now? How will it work? Who will you get to vote and/or pay for this crap? The Democratic debate is devolved into this idiotic purity contest about things that didn't quite happen 20 years ago while Trump is leading the right wing of this country straight into a vulgar fascism-lite. Trump's calls to violence and revenge are far more consequential than the liberal on liberal fights about who was the liberalist back in the day. I want to hear how Bernie/Hillary will address the rising tide of Trump hatred and violence. What are they going to do to address the illegitimate white feelings of loss**.
White feelings of loss = Barack Obama crushed the illusion of white supremacy in this country. Two times he was elected without the majority consent of whites in this country and put black people in charge of justice. Though illegitimate, that is a real feeling of loss for the aged and under-educated Trump supporters who had so little left to lose.
Nonsense.White people are better off now than when Obama was elected.Blacks are worse off.It's fact. Why are you ignoring the great crash again? I mean seriously. It isn't hard to have a basic grasp of history. I can see through your dishonesty, so can everyone else. The Obama presidency started in 2009, the crash was in 2008 and petered out right around the time Obama signed the stimulus. The SubPrime crisis really hurt black wealth levels, but that was all Pre-Obama. Check out Pew research for a bit: "Over the longer term, black adults sustained the largest increase in income status from 1971 to 2015 and were the only major racial or ethnic group to experience a decline in their lower-income share." http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/2-changes-in-income-status-vary-across-demographic-groups/Some articles to back up my previous post about divergent white and black perspectives: Discussing the white perspective (It’s not just anger over jobs and immigration. White voters hope Trump will restore the racial hierarchy upended by Barack Obama.): http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/03/how_donald_trump_happened_racism_against_barack_obama.htmlDiscussing the black perspective (sadness over loss of a great President and fear for what comes next): http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/us/politics/proud-of-obamas-presidency-blacks-are-sad-to-see-him-go.htmlConsider the actual black perspective. So like i just said.Blacks are worse off now than when Obama first got in.What has he done for them?
What have the democrats done for Detroit, a city they have governed for over 50 years straight? Chicago blacks, what have they done for them in the past 90 years (Yes,Chicago has been ruled by democrats for 90 years straight).
You need to get this idea out of your head that the democrats want anything other than welfare addicted low class voters.
If it's such a racial thing for the republicans then why was Carson topping the polls for a time against Trump? It's anti establishment, anti lobbyist.Please stop with the identity politics.
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Well Detroit was ruined by a confluence of factors that fucked the city lol. Blaming it on democrats is a ridiculous notion. Republicans couldn't have saved that city either. Local governments can only do so much when you have state and federal laws that exist on a higher order of the hierarchy, not to mention the economic depression which was almost entirely out of their hands. They also had a few corrupt as fuck mayors and some of the good ones said fuck it because they got so much flak.
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On March 14 2016 13:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 10:54 JW_DTLA wrote:On March 14 2016 10:41 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On March 14 2016 08:40 JW_DTLA wrote: I am so done with these arguments over who was more liberal back in the 90s. A bunch of angels dancing on the head of a pin nonsense. What are you going to do now? How will it work? Who will you get to vote and/or pay for this crap? The Democratic debate is devolved into this idiotic purity contest about things that didn't quite happen 20 years ago while Trump is leading the right wing of this country straight into a vulgar fascism-lite. Trump's calls to violence and revenge are far more consequential than the liberal on liberal fights about who was the liberalist back in the day. I want to hear how Bernie/Hillary will address the rising tide of Trump hatred and violence. What are they going to do to address the illegitimate white feelings of loss**.
White feelings of loss = Barack Obama crushed the illusion of white supremacy in this country. Two times he was elected without the majority consent of whites in this country and put black people in charge of justice. Though illegitimate, that is a real feeling of loss for the aged and under-educated Trump supporters who had so little left to lose.
Nonsense.White people are better off now than when Obama was elected.Blacks are worse off.It's fact. Why are you ignoring the great crash again? I mean seriously. It isn't hard to have a basic grasp of history. I can see through your dishonesty, so can everyone else. The Obama presidency started in 2009, the crash was in 2008 and petered out right around the time Obama signed the stimulus. The SubPrime crisis really hurt black wealth levels, but that was all Pre-Obama. Check out Pew research for a bit: "Over the longer term, black adults sustained the largest increase in income status from 1971 to 2015 and were the only major racial or ethnic group to experience a decline in their lower-income share." http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/2-changes-in-income-status-vary-across-demographic-groups/Some articles to back up my previous post about divergent white and black perspectives: Discussing the white perspective (It’s not just anger over jobs and immigration. White voters hope Trump will restore the racial hierarchy upended by Barack Obama.): http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/03/how_donald_trump_happened_racism_against_barack_obama.htmlDiscussing the black perspective (sadness over loss of a great President and fear for what comes next): http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/us/politics/proud-of-obamas-presidency-blacks-are-sad-to-see-him-go.htmlConsider the actual black perspective. So like i just said.Blacks are worse off now than when Obama first got in.What has he done for them? What have the democrats done for Detroit, a city they have governed for over 50 years straight? Chicago blacks, what have they done for them in the past 90 years (Yes,Chicago has been ruled by democrats for 90 years straight). You need to get this idea out of your head that the democrats want anything other than welfare addicted low class voters. If it's such a racial thing for the republicans then why was Carson topping the polls for a time against Trump? It's anti establishment, anti lobbyist.Please stop with the identity politics.
I can't find a more recent poll, but this one from July 2015 is still close enough from: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/poll-obama-approval-rating-increase-50-percent-119575
"Ninety-one percent of blacks expressed approval of Obama in the poll, which was recorded after the president’s response to the tragic killing of nine African-Americans at a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina, on June 17."
Tell me why they are wrong. I want to hear you say it. Spin that 91% into something.
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On March 14 2016 14:03 JW_DTLA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 13:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On March 14 2016 10:54 JW_DTLA wrote:On March 14 2016 10:41 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On March 14 2016 08:40 JW_DTLA wrote: I am so done with these arguments over who was more liberal back in the 90s. A bunch of angels dancing on the head of a pin nonsense. What are you going to do now? How will it work? Who will you get to vote and/or pay for this crap? The Democratic debate is devolved into this idiotic purity contest about things that didn't quite happen 20 years ago while Trump is leading the right wing of this country straight into a vulgar fascism-lite. Trump's calls to violence and revenge are far more consequential than the liberal on liberal fights about who was the liberalist back in the day. I want to hear how Bernie/Hillary will address the rising tide of Trump hatred and violence. What are they going to do to address the illegitimate white feelings of loss**.
White feelings of loss = Barack Obama crushed the illusion of white supremacy in this country. Two times he was elected without the majority consent of whites in this country and put black people in charge of justice. Though illegitimate, that is a real feeling of loss for the aged and under-educated Trump supporters who had so little left to lose.
Nonsense.White people are better off now than when Obama was elected.Blacks are worse off.It's fact. Why are you ignoring the great crash again? I mean seriously. It isn't hard to have a basic grasp of history. I can see through your dishonesty, so can everyone else. The Obama presidency started in 2009, the crash was in 2008 and petered out right around the time Obama signed the stimulus. The SubPrime crisis really hurt black wealth levels, but that was all Pre-Obama. Check out Pew research for a bit: "Over the longer term, black adults sustained the largest increase in income status from 1971 to 2015 and were the only major racial or ethnic group to experience a decline in their lower-income share." http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/2-changes-in-income-status-vary-across-demographic-groups/Some articles to back up my previous post about divergent white and black perspectives: Discussing the white perspective (It’s not just anger over jobs and immigration. White voters hope Trump will restore the racial hierarchy upended by Barack Obama.): http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/03/how_donald_trump_happened_racism_against_barack_obama.htmlDiscussing the black perspective (sadness over loss of a great President and fear for what comes next): http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/us/politics/proud-of-obamas-presidency-blacks-are-sad-to-see-him-go.htmlConsider the actual black perspective. So like i just said.Blacks are worse off now than when Obama first got in.What has he done for them? What have the democrats done for Detroit, a city they have governed for over 50 years straight? Chicago blacks, what have they done for them in the past 90 years (Yes,Chicago has been ruled by democrats for 90 years straight). You need to get this idea out of your head that the democrats want anything other than welfare addicted low class voters. If it's such a racial thing for the republicans then why was Carson topping the polls for a time against Trump? It's anti establishment, anti lobbyist.Please stop with the identity politics. I can't find a more recent poll, but this one from July 2015 is still close enough from: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/poll-obama-approval-rating-increase-50-percent-119575"Ninety-one percent of blacks expressed approval of Obama in the poll, which was recorded after the president’s response to the tragic killing of nine African-Americans at a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina, on June 17." Tell me why they are wrong. I want to hear you say it. Spin that 91% into something. Why do i need to? I'm saying that we all know blacks are worse off economically now compared to when Obama was elected.The question is why do they continue to blindly support democratic candidates even though they, especially inner city blacks, continue to go backwards? I gave the example of Detroit.90% black, democrat run for over 50 years straight.Getting worse for 50 years.Why not try something different.
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On March 14 2016 13:56 Slaughter wrote: Well Detroit was ruined by a confluence of factors that fucked the city lol. Blaming it on democrats is a ridiculous notion. Republicans couldn't have saved that city either. Local governments can only do so much when you have state and federal laws that exist on a higher order of the hierarchy, not to mention the economic depression which was almost entirely out of their hands. They also had a few corrupt as fuck mayors and some of the good ones said fuck it because they got so much flak. Yeah and I'm saying on a national level Bill Clintons NAFTA was bad for them and Obamas TPP will be bad for them.Why continue blindly supporting candidates and parties that screw them over.
Thanks for proving my point though with the corrupt mayor comment.You referring to Coleman Young? Mayor for 20 years, democrat? Exactly.
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On March 14 2016 14:42 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 13:56 Slaughter wrote: Well Detroit was ruined by a confluence of factors that fucked the city lol. Blaming it on democrats is a ridiculous notion. Republicans couldn't have saved that city either. Local governments can only do so much when you have state and federal laws that exist on a higher order of the hierarchy, not to mention the economic depression which was almost entirely out of their hands. They also had a few corrupt as fuck mayors and some of the good ones said fuck it because they got so much flak. Yeah and I'm saying on a national level Bill Clintons NAFTA was bad for them and Obamas TPP will be bad for them.Why continue blindly supporting candidates and parties that screw them over. Thanks for proving my point though with the corrupt mayor comment.You referring to Coleman Young? Mayor for 20 years, democrat? Exactly.
Implying there is no corrupt republican politicians? Lol I wasn't even referring to him but whatever, you obviously are just like to label all democrats as idiots or corrupt apparently (isn't that what republicans like to say democrats do with the whole PC thing?).
NAFTA also isn't what killed the manufacturing in the Detroit area. Your views on this are too simplistic and lack any nuance. Things are almost never black and white and have multiple forces at play.
Things haven't gotten worse for poor African American communities because of democrats, they took hits from the recession yes but other then that the whole "race relations are worse now" and "blacks are worse off" is mostly due to the fact that it is getting more coverage in the media. Things weren't good for them pre Obama, people just are more aware of it currently because it has been given a spotlight.
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On March 14 2016 14:57 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 14:42 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On March 14 2016 13:56 Slaughter wrote: Well Detroit was ruined by a confluence of factors that fucked the city lol. Blaming it on democrats is a ridiculous notion. Republicans couldn't have saved that city either. Local governments can only do so much when you have state and federal laws that exist on a higher order of the hierarchy, not to mention the economic depression which was almost entirely out of their hands. They also had a few corrupt as fuck mayors and some of the good ones said fuck it because they got so much flak. Yeah and I'm saying on a national level Bill Clintons NAFTA was bad for them and Obamas TPP will be bad for them.Why continue blindly supporting candidates and parties that screw them over. Thanks for proving my point though with the corrupt mayor comment.You referring to Coleman Young? Mayor for 20 years, democrat? Exactly. Implying there is no corrupt republican politicians? Lol I wasn't even referring to him but whatever, you obviously are just like to label all democrats as idiots or corrupt apparently (isn't that what republicans like to say democrats do with the whole PC thing?). NAFTA also isn't what killed the manufacturing in the Detroit area. Your views on this are too simplistic and lack any nuance. Things are almost never black and white and have multiple forces at play. Things haven't gotten worse for poor African American communities because of democrats, they took hits from the recession yes but other then that the whole "race relations are worse now" and "blacks are worse off" is mostly due to the fact that it is getting more coverage in the media. Things weren't good for them pre Obama, people just are more aware of it currently because it has been given a spotlight.
Is it your position that NAFTA is neither good nor bad? That it's not all bad? I am confused how nuance changes the actual evaluation of NAFTA in your eyes because you resort to truisms, like "multiple forces at play" or that non-"simplistic thinking" is required, but don't actually do any explication.
So NAFTA, good or bad? On balance.
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On March 14 2016 12:14 Ghanburighan wrote:I especially like the fact that people who vote democrat are more likely to have heard of him  I'm surprised that there's anyone that hasn't heard of him. He's pretty famous as far as reality TV personas go.
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On March 14 2016 15:27 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 14:57 Slaughter wrote:On March 14 2016 14:42 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On March 14 2016 13:56 Slaughter wrote: Well Detroit was ruined by a confluence of factors that fucked the city lol. Blaming it on democrats is a ridiculous notion. Republicans couldn't have saved that city either. Local governments can only do so much when you have state and federal laws that exist on a higher order of the hierarchy, not to mention the economic depression which was almost entirely out of their hands. They also had a few corrupt as fuck mayors and some of the good ones said fuck it because they got so much flak. Yeah and I'm saying on a national level Bill Clintons NAFTA was bad for them and Obamas TPP will be bad for them.Why continue blindly supporting candidates and parties that screw them over. Thanks for proving my point though with the corrupt mayor comment.You referring to Coleman Young? Mayor for 20 years, democrat? Exactly. Implying there is no corrupt republican politicians? Lol I wasn't even referring to him but whatever, you obviously are just like to label all democrats as idiots or corrupt apparently (isn't that what republicans like to say democrats do with the whole PC thing?). NAFTA also isn't what killed the manufacturing in the Detroit area. Your views on this are too simplistic and lack any nuance. Things are almost never black and white and have multiple forces at play. Things haven't gotten worse for poor African American communities because of democrats, they took hits from the recession yes but other then that the whole "race relations are worse now" and "blacks are worse off" is mostly due to the fact that it is getting more coverage in the media. Things weren't good for them pre Obama, people just are more aware of it currently because it has been given a spotlight. Is it your position that NAFTA is neither good nor bad? That it's not all bad? I am confused how nuance changes the actual evaluation of NAFTA in your eyes because you resort to truisms, like "multiple forces at play" or that non-"simplistic thinking" is required, but don't actually do any explication. So NAFTA, good or bad? On balance.
I wasn't arguing for or against NAFTA....I was arguing against his assertion that Democrats have ruined Black people's lives.
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On March 14 2016 13:56 Slaughter wrote: Well Detroit was ruined by a confluence of factors that fucked the city lol. Blaming it on democrats is a ridiculous notion. Republicans couldn't have saved that city either. Local governments can only do so much when you have state and federal laws that exist on a higher order of the hierarchy, not to mention the economic depression which was almost entirely out of their hands. They also had a few corrupt as fuck mayors and some of the good ones said fuck it because they got so much flak. When Democrats mess it up, nobody could've avoided fate and the system broke the good guys. I have to wonder if you're some expert on urban politics and we're expected to take you at your word.
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On March 14 2016 15:39 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2016 13:56 Slaughter wrote: Well Detroit was ruined by a confluence of factors that fucked the city lol. Blaming it on democrats is a ridiculous notion. Republicans couldn't have saved that city either. Local governments can only do so much when you have state and federal laws that exist on a higher order of the hierarchy, not to mention the economic depression which was almost entirely out of their hands. They also had a few corrupt as fuck mayors and some of the good ones said fuck it because they got so much flak. When Democrats mess it up, nobody could've avoided fate and the system broke the good guys. I have to wonder if you're some expert on urban politics and we're expected to take you at your word.
Its not my burden to prove his assertion, which I have not seen any evidence for besides him pointing to 2 cities saying "obviously democrats fault".
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There's a huge chasm between acknowledging that the Democratic establishment has taken advantage of black folks for decades and voting Republican.
Democrats were only able to get away with so much for so long because the Republicans are so god-awful.
Black people are more likely to write in Michelle, or hell, Barack, before the overwhelming majority even considers voting Republican.
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On March 14 2016 13:38 IgnE wrote: You are the one who has spent 10 pages in the politics public thread arguing that this is an important point. I guess it's not important. Except like I just told you, that is not the point that I was arguing. Perhaps next time you should pick one of my posts and read it before asking me an unrelated question and then complain when I point out that is not what I'm saying.
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You guys make it sound as if getting votes from ethnic groups is something dirty.
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