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On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
The statement from a state official that I linked to earlier actually said he didn't break the law, so I was wondering if you had any actual evidence that he did.
Like I said there is the law, there is the video. What more do you need?
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
On March 03 2016 09:36 oneofthem wrote: ^that would be a good move how? it makes hillary look extremely sympathetic with all the bullying from trump. she's already taking the harmless grandma getting bullied route, watch it
Because she's not the victim in a situation where her husband sexually assaulted someone and she slandered them to protect him and her political career. Her playing the victim would sit sour with women who have been victims and had powerful people or other women cast doubt.
It hits her from at least 2 sides, from the pc crowd since they aren't going to like the things she said back then, and from the anti-pc crowd who are sick of people claiming they are victims.
So like are you just making stuff up? Because no one has filed charges and the "law" isn't involved from all reports.
I never mentioned the law? Not to mention we all know reality doesn't constrain Trump's rhetoric.
If the people whose job it is to know the law say he did not break it and you are saying they did then there must be something you know that they do not so thus he is asking what that is.
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
The statement from a state official that I linked to earlier actually said he didn't break the law, so I was wondering if you had any actual evidence that he did.
Like I said there is the law, there is the video. What more do you need?
On March 03 2016 09:47 Plansix wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:37 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:33 kwizach wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
On March 03 2016 09:36 oneofthem wrote: ^that would be a good move how? it makes hillary look extremely sympathetic with all the bullying from trump. she's already taking the harmless grandma getting bullied route, watch it
Because she's not the victim in a situation where her husband sexually assaulted someone and she slandered them to protect him and her political career. Her playing the victim would sit sour with women who have been victims and had powerful people or other women cast doubt.
It hits her from at least 2 sides, from the pc crowd since they aren't going to like the things she said back then, and from the anti-pc crowd who are sick of people claiming they are victims.
So like are you just making stuff up? Because no one has filed charges and the "law" isn't involved from all reports.
I never mentioned the law? Not to mention we all know reality doesn't constrain Trump's rhetoric.
If the people whose job it is to know the law say he did not break it and you are saying they did then there must be something you know that they do not so thus he is asking what that is.
Yeah okay... Pretty sure I get the same line about cops who break the law.
On March 03 2016 09:52 Plansix wrote: File this under things GH believes are true, despite people who were there and everyone saying otherwise.
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
The statement from a state official that I linked to earlier actually said he didn't break the law, so I was wondering if you had any actual evidence that he did.
Like I said there is the law, there is the video. What more do you need?
On March 03 2016 09:47 Plansix wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:37 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:33 kwizach wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
On March 03 2016 09:36 oneofthem wrote: ^that would be a good move how? it makes hillary look extremely sympathetic with all the bullying from trump. she's already taking the harmless grandma getting bullied route, watch it
Because she's not the victim in a situation where her husband sexually assaulted someone and she slandered them to protect him and her political career. Her playing the victim would sit sour with women who have been victims and had powerful people or other women cast doubt.
It hits her from at least 2 sides, from the pc crowd since they aren't going to like the things she said back then, and from the anti-pc crowd who are sick of people claiming they are victims.
So like are you just making stuff up? Because no one has filed charges and the "law" isn't involved from all reports.
I never mentioned the law? Not to mention we all know reality doesn't constrain Trump's rhetoric.
If the people whose job it is to know the law say he did not break it and you are saying they did then there must be something you know that they do not so thus he is asking what that is.
Yeah okay... Pretty sure I get the same line about cops who break the law.
On March 03 2016 09:52 Plansix wrote: File this under things GH believes are true, despite people who were there and everyone saying otherwise.
this one too
Lazy comparison aside when that happens you get actual people who say the cop broke the law whereas here I dont see anyone saying Bill broke any laws except you and you arent giving a reason why you are right and the guy whose job it is to determine this is wrong.
Well instead of going back and forth (and with that, going nowhere) - why isn't someone linking the video including time where you can see the 50 feet?
I know that GH will say now "look for yourself, not that hard", like the "hillary is totally cheating, not gonna tell you how but everyone knows anyway", consistently denying any form of actual evidence, or something close to that - but hey. Ima still try, want to see if you're right (it wouldn't surprise me, considering hillary) - or wrong (which wouldn't surprise me either, because american "candidate-favorism").
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
The statement from a state official that I linked to earlier actually said he didn't break the law, so I was wondering if you had any actual evidence that he did.
Like I said there is the law, there is the video. What more do you need?
On March 03 2016 09:47 Plansix wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:37 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:33 kwizach wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
On March 03 2016 09:36 oneofthem wrote: ^that would be a good move how? it makes hillary look extremely sympathetic with all the bullying from trump. she's already taking the harmless grandma getting bullied route, watch it
Because she's not the victim in a situation where her husband sexually assaulted someone and she slandered them to protect him and her political career. Her playing the victim would sit sour with women who have been victims and had powerful people or other women cast doubt.
It hits her from at least 2 sides, from the pc crowd since they aren't going to like the things she said back then, and from the anti-pc crowd who are sick of people claiming they are victims.
So like are you just making stuff up? Because no one has filed charges and the "law" isn't involved from all reports.
I never mentioned the law? Not to mention we all know reality doesn't constrain Trump's rhetoric.
If the people whose job it is to know the law say he did not break it and you are saying they did then there must be something you know that they do not so thus he is asking what that is.
Yeah okay... Pretty sure I get the same line about cops who break the law.
On March 03 2016 09:52 Plansix wrote: File this under things GH believes are true, despite people who were there and everyone saying otherwise.
this one too
But the only people saying it is you and a bunch of Sanders supporters who are grumpy Hilary lost this state. Maybe if one uninterested party agreed with you, it might consider it.
Also, its not hard to stay 150 feet away. Its not that far.
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
The statement from a state official that I linked to earlier actually said he didn't break the law, so I was wondering if you had any actual evidence that he did.
Like I said there is the law, there is the video. What more do you need?
On March 03 2016 09:47 Plansix wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:37 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:33 kwizach wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
On March 03 2016 09:36 oneofthem wrote: ^that would be a good move how? it makes hillary look extremely sympathetic with all the bullying from trump. she's already taking the harmless grandma getting bullied route, watch it
Because she's not the victim in a situation where her husband sexually assaulted someone and she slandered them to protect him and her political career. Her playing the victim would sit sour with women who have been victims and had powerful people or other women cast doubt.
It hits her from at least 2 sides, from the pc crowd since they aren't going to like the things she said back then, and from the anti-pc crowd who are sick of people claiming they are victims.
So like are you just making stuff up? Because no one has filed charges and the "law" isn't involved from all reports.
I never mentioned the law? Not to mention we all know reality doesn't constrain Trump's rhetoric.
If the people whose job it is to know the law say he did not break it and you are saying they did then there must be something you know that they do not so thus he is asking what that is.
Yeah okay... Pretty sure I get the same line about cops who break the law.
On March 03 2016 09:52 Plansix wrote: File this under things GH believes are true, despite people who were there and everyone saying otherwise.
this one too
Lazy comparison aside when that happens you get actual people who say the cop broke the law whereas here I dont see anyone saying Bill broke any laws except you and you arent giving a reason why you are right and the guy whose job it is to determine this is wrong.
You don't always get people who say the cop broke the law, that's for damn sure.
The law says no electioneering within 150' of the polling including speaking about a candidate on the ballot. He was electioneering within 150' of the polling. I really don't see how it's complicated.
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
The statement from a state official that I linked to earlier actually said he didn't break the law, so I was wondering if you had any actual evidence that he did.
Like I said there is the law, there is the video. What more do you need?
On March 03 2016 09:47 Plansix wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:37 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:33 kwizach wrote:
On March 03 2016 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: Oh and just to touch the Bill Clinton in Mass. Yeah no he wasn't "just there" he was talking up his wife ~50' from the polling entrance with a megaphone. It's definitely illegal. I don't think in and of itself it is a huge deal, but part of a larger "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" mentality out of the Clinton campaign.
Do you have any actual evidence that he broke the law?
The law/release from the SoS and video/pictures from him doing it and the proximity to the polling place. What more are you expecting?
On March 03 2016 09:36 oneofthem wrote: ^that would be a good move how? it makes hillary look extremely sympathetic with all the bullying from trump. she's already taking the harmless grandma getting bullied route, watch it
Because she's not the victim in a situation where her husband sexually assaulted someone and she slandered them to protect him and her political career. Her playing the victim would sit sour with women who have been victims and had powerful people or other women cast doubt.
It hits her from at least 2 sides, from the pc crowd since they aren't going to like the things she said back then, and from the anti-pc crowd who are sick of people claiming they are victims.
So like are you just making stuff up? Because no one has filed charges and the "law" isn't involved from all reports.
I never mentioned the law? Not to mention we all know reality doesn't constrain Trump's rhetoric.
If the people whose job it is to know the law say he did not break it and you are saying they did then there must be something you know that they do not so thus he is asking what that is.
Yeah okay... Pretty sure I get the same line about cops who break the law.
On March 03 2016 09:52 Plansix wrote: File this under things GH believes are true, despite people who were there and everyone saying otherwise.
this one too
But the only people saying it is you and a bunch of Sanders supporters who are grumpy Hilary lost this state. Maybe if one uninterested party agreed with you, it might consider it.
Also, its not hard to stay 150 feet away. Its not that far.
But we know he was within 150' are Hillary supporters entering the Trump zone where you deny reality for the sake of your candidate?
I posted video of Hillary supporters voting without having registration or anything verified, there are multiple videos of votes for her being counted at caucuses where the people weren't there, there's a metric fuckton of stuff you all are just choosing not to see.
i agree with jcarl that what bill was doing was very very sketchy. definitely something that violated the spirit of the law, even if a literal reading would suggest its okay. he didnt disseminate campaign literature or actually tell people to vote for hillary (from the vids i watched), but he is a walking talking advertisement for hillary.
On March 03 2016 09:36 oneofthem wrote: ^that would be a good move how? it makes hillary look extremely sympathetic with all the bullying from trump. she's already taking the harmless grandma getting bullied route, watch it
Trump has also defined her general election pitch. The Democratic Party and Hillary represent inclusiveness and tolerance while the Republican Party and Trump are a purely white-ethnic resentment club. Hillary can righteously run on representing the Obama rainbow-coalition against downscale white bigotry. Trump has abandoned any pretense of running for anyone outside of white suburbanites, and the 2008 and 2012 elections have shown you need more than the 65% of white people to win in a national election in this country.
Or you a full of shit and a liar. I live in that state and have been paying attention, no one is trying to charge him. So I'm going to call a spade a spade, you are making shit up because you are a sore loser.
Consistent with the activities restricted by statute, the implementing regulations prohibit the solicitation of votes for or against, or any other form of promotion or opposition of, any person or political party or position on a ballot question, to be voted on at the current election.
I think this speaks volumes when Trump is made out to be supported by racists, sexists, etc, etc. (disproving it, at least relative to every other candidate in the GOP)
And wow, the political machine is hard at work, they really turned up their efforts to shit on Trump after yesterday, I encourage the Trump supporters to not be swayed by the media and stick to their roots, whatever they are.
NYtimes also had an update before votes were done about Bill Cliton getting into a polling station iirc. Don't know if anyone mentioned that already:
Bill Clinton Gets a Little Too Close to Voters in Boston Some poll workers in Boston did a double-take on Tuesday at the unusual sight of a former president of the United States campaigning inside polling places.
Bill Clinton, an inveterate campaigner who has always loved Election Day, was ranging over the state trying to pump up voters to cast their ballots for his wife, Hillary Clinton.
“We had to remind some of our poll workers that even a president can’t go inside and work a polling place,” William F. Galvin, the Massachusetts secretary of state, said in an interview.
A pool report from Mr. Clinton’s visit to Boston’s West Roxbury neighborhood on Tuesday morning said that he went inside the polling place with the city’s mayor, Martin J. Walsh. Mr. Clinton stopped at a bake sale at the entrance and then shook hands with poll workers.
When one woman asked for a photo, Mr. Clinton said, “As long as we’re not violating any election laws,” the pool report said.
One woman told him, “We’re going to get this for her.”
Another woman after meeting him said “Oh my God, thank you.”
Mr. Clinton responded, “Bless you, thank you.”
He then showed up at a library in Newton, Mr. Galvin said, and the poll workers were flummoxed.
“We had to remind everybody what the rules are, that there is no campaigning within 150 feet of the voting booths because people are entitled to their privacy,” Mr. Galvin said. “And it’s not just him but his media entourage.”
Because of the situation in Newton, Mr. Galvin said that his office called ahead to Mr. Clinton’s next stop, in New Bedford, to remind those poll workers of the rules.
“He can go in, but he can’t approach voters,” Mr. Galvin said. “We just took the extra precaution of telling them because this is not a usual occurrence. You don’t usually get a president doing this.”
On March 03 2016 10:21 Toadesstern wrote: NYtimes also had an update before votes were done about Bill Cliton getting into a polling station iirc. Don't know if anyone mentioned that already:
Bill Clinton Gets a Little Too Close to Voters in Boston Some poll workers in Boston did a double-take on Tuesday at the unusual sight of a former president of the United States campaigning inside polling places.
Bill Clinton, an inveterate campaigner who has always loved Election Day, was ranging over the state trying to pump up voters to cast their ballots for his wife, Hillary Clinton.
“We had to remind some of our poll workers that even a president can’t go inside and work a polling place,” William F. Galvin, the Massachusetts secretary of state, said in an interview.
A pool report from Mr. Clinton’s visit to Boston’s West Roxbury neighborhood on Tuesday morning said that he went inside the polling place with the city’s mayor, Martin J. Walsh. Mr. Clinton stopped at a bake sale at the entrance and then shook hands with poll workers.
When one woman asked for a photo, Mr. Clinton said, “As long as we’re not violating any election laws,” the pool report said.
One woman told him, “We’re going to get this for her.”
Another woman after meeting him said “Oh my God, thank you.”
Mr. Clinton responded, “Bless you, thank you.”
He then showed up at a library in Newton, Mr. Galvin said, and the poll workers were flummoxed.
“We had to remind everybody what the rules are, that there is no campaigning within 150 feet of the voting booths because people are entitled to their privacy,” Mr. Galvin said. “And it’s not just him but his media entourage.”
Because of the situation in Newton, Mr. Galvin said that his office called ahead to Mr. Clinton’s next stop, in New Bedford, to remind those poll workers of the rules.
“He can go in, but he can’t approach voters,” Mr. Galvin said. “We just took the extra precaution of telling them because this is not a usual occurrence. You don’t usually get a president doing this.”
It obviously violates the spirit of the law as he had 0 reason to be there other than to influence voters. But it's less of a clear cut violation than the one I presented which they already have been in denial about.
I think this speaks volumes when Trump is made out to be supported by racists, sexists, etc, etc. (disproving it, at least relative to every other candidate in the GOP)
And wow, the political machine is hard at work, they really turned up their efforts to shit on Trump after yesterday, I encourage the Trump supporters to not be swayed by the media and stick to their roots, whatever they are.
1 Irish, Italian, Jewish, and many other minorities overcame prejudice and worked their way up. Black people should do the same without any special favors. 2 It’s really a matter of some people not trying hard enough; if black people would only try harder they could be just as well-off as whites. 3 Over the past few years, black people have gotten less than they deserve. 4 Generations of slavery and discrimination have created conditions that make it difficult for black people to work their way out of the lower class. For the first two questions, agreeing is seen as a sign of racial resentment, whereas for the latter two, disagreeing is.
It's baffling that academics came up with something like this and we're to accept it on their authority.
There were people holding Sanders signs in entrance to my polling location. Its not a huge space. I didn't break out the measuring tape, but I didn't feel unduly influenced. The lines for the polls start inside the buildings. Its a non-issue and the local election offices have said he did not violate any laws.
When we have local elections in MA, the same laws apply and the candidates get to vote. And when they do, the press follows them and asks them questions the instant they are outside. And it all works out. Like magic.
I guess people don't understand where Donald Trump is coming from at all. For a while I didn't completely get it either. Donald Trump is a businessman so he's thinking in business terms. Like if you let employees from other businesses into your business without verifying their loyalty to you your business isn't going to last very long. Just like if we keep on allowing people into the United States without verifying their loyalty to the United States, the United States isn't going to last much longer.
On March 03 2016 10:30 Plansix wrote: There were people holding Sanders signs in entrance to my polling location. Its not a huge space. I didn't break out the measuring tape, but I didn't feel unduly influenced. The lines for the polls start inside the buildings. Its a non-issue and the local election offices have said he did not violate any laws.
When we have local elections in MA, the same laws apply and the candidates get to vote. And when they do, the press follows them and asks them questions the instant they are outside. And it all works out. Like magic.
Let's not be condescending and give credit where credit is due.
He's right.
And i do see a difference between some dudes holding up signs and a former president yelling shit at people via megaphone.
On March 03 2016 10:21 Toadesstern wrote: NYtimes also had an update before votes were done about Bill Cliton getting into a polling station iirc. Don't know if anyone mentioned that already:
Bill Clinton Gets a Little Too Close to Voters in Boston Some poll workers in Boston did a double-take on Tuesday at the unusual sight of a former president of the United States campaigning inside polling places.
Bill Clinton, an inveterate campaigner who has always loved Election Day, was ranging over the state trying to pump up voters to cast their ballots for his wife, Hillary Clinton.
“We had to remind some of our poll workers that even a president can’t go inside and work a polling place,” William F. Galvin, the Massachusetts secretary of state, said in an interview.
A pool report from Mr. Clinton’s visit to Boston’s West Roxbury neighborhood on Tuesday morning said that he went inside the polling place with the city’s mayor, Martin J. Walsh. Mr. Clinton stopped at a bake sale at the entrance and then shook hands with poll workers.
When one woman asked for a photo, Mr. Clinton said, “As long as we’re not violating any election laws,” the pool report said.
One woman told him, “We’re going to get this for her.”
Another woman after meeting him said “Oh my God, thank you.”
Mr. Clinton responded, “Bless you, thank you.”
He then showed up at a library in Newton, Mr. Galvin said, and the poll workers were flummoxed.
“We had to remind everybody what the rules are, that there is no campaigning within 150 feet of the voting booths because people are entitled to their privacy,” Mr. Galvin said. “And it’s not just him but his media entourage.”
Because of the situation in Newton, Mr. Galvin said that his office called ahead to Mr. Clinton’s next stop, in New Bedford, to remind those poll workers of the rules.
“He can go in, but he can’t approach voters,” Mr. Galvin said. “We just took the extra precaution of telling them because this is not a usual occurrence. You don’t usually get a president doing this.”
It obviously violates the spirit of the law as he had 0 reason to be there other than to influence voters. But it's less of a clear cut violation than the one I presented which they already have been in denial about.
Who's been in denial? I asked you repeatedly for evidence, and you only posted it now. It seems like he did violate that particular law. It's not the big deal the Sanders reddit is making this out to be, though.