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On February 26 2016 03:57 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Read the previous pages of the thread. Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true. You're terrible for saying that. Literally justifying the entire drug war and the mass incarceration of black people because "crime was really bad back then and that statement was true". By that argument the drug war is a smashing success and we should keep going and jail more people for broken window offences. But by all means if thats what you believe at least just say it.
So should people vote for Trump instead? Because that is what I am looking at right now.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On February 26 2016 03:57 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:49 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. Considering Bernie has actively fired people in his camp for bs, I respectfully disagree. Sure, and I can appreciate that and it puts some weight on his side of the scales. Not enough though. Let's separate for a moment Hillary's campaign (which she controls) and the DNC (which she doesn't though they do coordinate). Within Hillary's campaign is David Brock. Given his history, his statement about Bernie was pretty tame, he is an attack dog on a leash. That is him barking. He'll be let off the leash for the general to, as I said before, tear the Donald a new one. He's a nasty individual, but he's a tool that has his uses and I accept that. Outside is the DNC, which shows favoritism to Hillary-- it's too much, though their long association does provide some basis for their support. However, for her to surrender the advantages seems, well, stupid. It's like turning away money from supporters (which she's actually done oddly enough, donations from the prison lobby went to some women's prison foundation IIRC but I digress). In retrospect, I think the debate issue is a little moot- these town halls are getting pretty boring and maybe there are enough events after all.
I actually cannot do that as I don't believe for a second that Hillary's campaign does not have significant influence over the DNC and their actions in relation to their campaign. Am I crazy?
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On February 26 2016 04:01 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:57 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:49 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. Considering Bernie has actively fired people in his camp for bs, I respectfully disagree. Sure, and I can appreciate that and it puts some weight on his side of the scales. Not enough though. Let's separate for a moment Hillary's campaign (which she controls) and the DNC (which she doesn't though they do coordinate). Within Hillary's campaign is David Brock. Given his history, his statement about Bernie was pretty tame, he is an attack dog on a leash. That is him barking. He'll be let off the leash for the general to, as I said before, tear the Donald a new one. He's a nasty individual, but he's a tool that has his uses and I accept that. Outside is the DNC, which shows favoritism to Hillary-- it's too much, though their long association does provide some basis for their support. However, for her to surrender the advantages seems, well, stupid. It's like turning away money from supporters (which she's actually done oddly enough, donations from the prison lobby went to some women's prison foundation IIRC but I digress). In retrospect, I think the debate issue is a little moot- these town halls are getting pretty boring and maybe there are enough events after all. I actually cannot do that as I don't believe for a second that Hillary's campaign does not have significant influence over the DNC and their actions in relation to their campaign. Am I crazy?
Alright, let's get to the core of the matter: what significant advantages do you think the DNC has provided Hillary over Bernie?
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On February 26 2016 03:57 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:49 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. Considering Bernie has actively fired people in his camp for bs, I respectfully disagree. Sure, and I can appreciate that and it puts some weight on his side of the scales. Not enough though. Let's separate for a moment Hillary's campaign (which she controls) and the DNC (which she doesn't though they do coordinate). Within Hillary's campaign is David Brock. Given his history, his statement about Bernie was pretty tame, he is an attack dog on a leash. That is him barking. He'll be let off the leash for the general to, as I said before, tear the Donald a new one. He's a nasty individual, but he's a tool that has his uses and I accept that. Outside is the DNC, which shows favoritism to Hillary-- it's too much, though their long association does provide some basis for their support. However, for her to surrender the advantages seems, well, stupid. It's like turning away money from supporters (which she's actually done oddly enough, donations from the prison lobby went to some women's prison foundation IIRC but I digress). In retrospect, I think the debate issue is a little moot- these town halls are getting pretty boring and maybe there are enough events after all.
Besides all the total crap in there, she is hugging Obama for Black voters and hitting Sanders for not loving him enough, all the while shitting all over Obama's ban on lobbyist and PAC money. It's not just that she controls the DNC (just be honest), but she's re-corrupting it so she can pump her wealthy donors (like we heard boo and hiss the protester) money into the system.
In total opposition to the one big stamp Obama left on the DNC which was supposed to move us away from Hillary's shit.
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On February 26 2016 03:59 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:57 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Read the previous pages of the thread. Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true. You're terrible for saying that. Literally justifying the entire drug war and the mass incarceration of black people because "crime was really bad back then and that statement was true". By that argument the drug war is a smashing success and we should keep going and jail more people for broken window offences. But by all means if thats what you believe at least just say it. I take it you didn't read. Therefore, I won't bother responding since there s nothing to respond to.
I did read. I responded to your post. You're post said that crime was awful back then and that the statement was true. Now there must be something that happened between then and now to change that truth by your opinion. that thing that changed was the drug war and the mass incarceration for people based on broken window offences.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On February 26 2016 04:02 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 04:01 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:57 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:49 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. Considering Bernie has actively fired people in his camp for bs, I respectfully disagree. Sure, and I can appreciate that and it puts some weight on his side of the scales. Not enough though. Let's separate for a moment Hillary's campaign (which she controls) and the DNC (which she doesn't though they do coordinate). Within Hillary's campaign is David Brock. Given his history, his statement about Bernie was pretty tame, he is an attack dog on a leash. That is him barking. He'll be let off the leash for the general to, as I said before, tear the Donald a new one. He's a nasty individual, but he's a tool that has his uses and I accept that. Outside is the DNC, which shows favoritism to Hillary-- it's too much, though their long association does provide some basis for their support. However, for her to surrender the advantages seems, well, stupid. It's like turning away money from supporters (which she's actually done oddly enough, donations from the prison lobby went to some women's prison foundation IIRC but I digress). In retrospect, I think the debate issue is a little moot- these town halls are getting pretty boring and maybe there are enough events after all. I actually cannot do that as I don't believe for a second that Hillary's campaign does not have significant influence over the DNC and their actions in relation to their campaign. Am I crazy? Alright, let's get to the core of the matter: what significant advantages do you think the DNC has provided Hillary over Bernie? Superdelegates, debate schedule, media manipulation, endorsements, soliciting campaign donations are the big ones that pop to mind.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On February 26 2016 03:27 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 22:54 oneofthem wrote:
friedman claims he is using a dsge model but did not provide or specify the model. to get those results you'd need to tweak the govt multiplier very high as well as assume growth baseline from the 90's.
it is quite a mistake to say it is just a regular model
just talking the underlying economics, yes there is a demand problem, but when you boost demand the companies may not return to their previous level of hiring. the ratchet and and clank of reorganization and restructuring is going towards smaller staff and so on so it's just difficult to see those numbers from just government spending. the most effective spending (infrastructure, some childcare stuff) are not even the main part of sander's plan. the medical and college stuff don't have a high multiplier If the 90s can't be used, and the aughties can't be used because they were a bubble, and the previous "post-war" decades can't be used because of their special circumstances then why is criticism from some economist hacks about not having an "evidence-based" policy valid? We haven't even established what the new normal is, and Krugman is accusing Friedman of fantasy. Let's concede that we are in a new era. What do we tell the Americans who were sold a bill of goods on pro-business free-trade policies because they were promised long-run 5% growth? What happens to pensions and 401ks when it turns out that now the best you can expect is 1-3%? We are already at the beginning of a retirement crisis with the baby boomers, and now it looks like the vehicles our privatisizing, market-driven policies have set up may never be able to adequtely provide for people in retirement in an age of low growth. Re: Bernie not spending enough in high-mulitiplier areas I'm sure Bernie could be persuaded to do so. He has mentioned infrastructure on several occasions. Hillary wouldn't.
uh the evidence is that we are not going to get 5% real growth. demographics is bad too
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On February 26 2016 04:03 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:59 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:57 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Read the previous pages of the thread. Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true. You're terrible for saying that. Literally justifying the entire drug war and the mass incarceration of black people because "crime was really bad back then and that statement was true". By that argument the drug war is a smashing success and we should keep going and jail more people for broken window offences. But by all means if thats what you believe at least just say it. I take it you didn't read. Therefore, I won't bother responding since there s nothing to respond to. I did read. I responded to your post. You're post said that crime was awful back then and that the statement was true. Now there must be something that happened between then and now to change that truth by your opinion. that thing that changed was the drug war and the mass incarceration for people based on broken window offences.
Okay, maybe you read but you have bad reading comprehension. Let me try once more:
1. Crime was bad. Superpredator was pretty much an accurate description.
2. This affected minorities.
3. The Clintons worked with leaders in the black communities to address the problem
4. The crime bill was legislated and signed
5a. Crime went down
5b. High incarceration for minorities and poor people
No one contests that the results were bad and maybe other factors drove the decrease in crime rate (see Freakonomics). Without the vast benefit of hindsight, would you rather have had the administration completely ignore the problem instead of at least trying to fix it?
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On February 26 2016 03:54 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:49 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Is everyone here not getting that being a Democrat in the 90s is different than being a democrat in the 2010s? The party and country has moved. Some of the people are the same (the Clintons), but they were doing Democrat stuff back in the 90s. What is Liberal/Democrat and what is Republican/Conservative moves as the issues the country faces shifts. Democrats were in the wilderness post Reagan and the 3rd way Dems brought the party back into elected office. Modern, Obama Democrats are significantly more liberal than the 90s 3rd way Dems. Hillary has run her race making it clear that she intends to be a modern, Obama Democrat. This is what pisses me off the most about Hillary supporters. Integrity and consistency matter god dammit.
Stop pretending Hillary has neither. Who are you supporting in the Republican primary, by the way?
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On February 26 2016 03:59 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:57 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Read the previous pages of the thread. Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true. You're terrible for saying that. Literally justifying the entire drug war and the mass incarceration of black people because "crime was really bad back then and that statement was true". By that argument the drug war is a smashing success and we should keep going and jail more people for broken window offences. But by all means if thats what you believe at least just say it. I take it you didn't read. Therefore, I won't bother responding since there s nothing to respond to.
lol he's right. your defense of hillary on this issue is just pathetic. crime was awful for a lot of reasons having to do with neoliberal policies pushed through beginning in the 70s, leading to disintegration of black families and communities. but let's bring them all to heel so that we can gentrify the inner cities. much easier to lock them all up forever on mandatory minimums and the three strikes rule than actually try to change anything.
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Trump on Romney "I have a store that is worth more than him"
Was this just some sort of revenge prank on Romney to get him to pick a fight with Trump?
Also Ticklish you could just support Bernie then you wouldn't have to defend all the shadyness that is Hillary
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On February 26 2016 04:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:57 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Read the previous pages of the thread. Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true. You're terrible for saying that. Literally justifying the entire drug war and the mass incarceration of black people because "crime was really bad back then and that statement was true". By that argument the drug war is a smashing success and we should keep going and jail more people for broken window offences. But by all means if thats what you believe at least just say it. So should people vote for Trump instead? Because that is what I am looking at right now.
I don't agree politically with Bernie sanders but he is the only person in the race with any credibility, integrity, and consistency. Trump can't win the general election so the presidential election is the democratic primary.
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On February 26 2016 04:04 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 04:02 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 04:01 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:57 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:49 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:
[quote]
I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair.
The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse.
The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake.
I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. Considering Bernie has actively fired people in his camp for bs, I respectfully disagree. Sure, and I can appreciate that and it puts some weight on his side of the scales. Not enough though. Let's separate for a moment Hillary's campaign (which she controls) and the DNC (which she doesn't though they do coordinate). Within Hillary's campaign is David Brock. Given his history, his statement about Bernie was pretty tame, he is an attack dog on a leash. That is him barking. He'll be let off the leash for the general to, as I said before, tear the Donald a new one. He's a nasty individual, but he's a tool that has his uses and I accept that. Outside is the DNC, which shows favoritism to Hillary-- it's too much, though their long association does provide some basis for their support. However, for her to surrender the advantages seems, well, stupid. It's like turning away money from supporters (which she's actually done oddly enough, donations from the prison lobby went to some women's prison foundation IIRC but I digress). In retrospect, I think the debate issue is a little moot- these town halls are getting pretty boring and maybe there are enough events after all. I actually cannot do that as I don't believe for a second that Hillary's campaign does not have significant influence over the DNC and their actions in relation to their campaign. Am I crazy? Alright, let's get to the core of the matter: what significant advantages do you think the DNC has provided Hillary over Bernie? Superdelegates, debate schedule, media manipulation, endorsements, soliciting campaign donations are the big ones that pop to mind.
1. Superdelegates have existed for a long time. They will vote for the eventual winner. This happened in 2008.
2. Debates: at first glance, kind of iffy. But, we have insane number of town halls. In retrospect, as someone who has watched every event, there might even be too many. I would support converting some town halls into more debatey or interactive formats though, I like the mano-a-mano action.
3. The media is its own entity. It's fickle and will follow whatever story and push whatever narrative gets the most attention and makes the most money.
4. Endorsements. Maybe because Hillary has worked and supported the DNC and individual candidates both politically and personally so they favor her. It's called loyalty. It's a non-issue.
5. Campaign donations-- I don't get this one really. Going off 4 though, Hillary has coordinated with the DNC to raise money and support downballot candidates. Bernie has not in this cycle, and has only done so slightly in past years. The DNC warchest will go to whoever wins the nomination.
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On February 26 2016 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I honestly could not give any shits about the ethics of who is running our country. If the country does well under someone's leadership, I do not care about the personality or ethics of that person. If they are good for our country. Killed 60 people? Improved infrastructure, healthcare, immigration, our tax system and the economy? Sounds good to me. I think it's so sad that people care so much about the character of a candidate as a stand alone quality. Not just how that personality influences decision making and policy, but who is the person. Would I have a beer with them? Pretty important quality in a president! Just so stupid. In a perfect world, we wouldn't even be able to see the candidates. We would just read a 50 page essay by each candidate explaining the problems with our country and what they would fix. With an attached resume. That would be the perfect election.
See, I find it more astounding that some people care so little about integrity and ethics, but that's a general observation of life, and not necessarily specific to politics.
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On February 26 2016 04:06 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:27 IgnE wrote:On February 25 2016 22:54 oneofthem wrote:
friedman claims he is using a dsge model but did not provide or specify the model. to get those results you'd need to tweak the govt multiplier very high as well as assume growth baseline from the 90's.
it is quite a mistake to say it is just a regular model
just talking the underlying economics, yes there is a demand problem, but when you boost demand the companies may not return to their previous level of hiring. the ratchet and and clank of reorganization and restructuring is going towards smaller staff and so on so it's just difficult to see those numbers from just government spending. the most effective spending (infrastructure, some childcare stuff) are not even the main part of sander's plan. the medical and college stuff don't have a high multiplier If the 90s can't be used, and the aughties can't be used because they were a bubble, and the previous "post-war" decades can't be used because of their special circumstances then why is criticism from some economist hacks about not having an "evidence-based" policy valid? We haven't even established what the new normal is, and Krugman is accusing Friedman of fantasy. Let's concede that we are in a new era. What do we tell the Americans who were sold a bill of goods on pro-business free-trade policies because they were promised long-run 5% growth? What happens to pensions and 401ks when it turns out that now the best you can expect is 1-3%? We are already at the beginning of a retirement crisis with the baby boomers, and now it looks like the vehicles our privatisizing, market-driven policies have set up may never be able to adequtely provide for people in retirement in an age of low growth. Re: Bernie not spending enough in high-mulitiplier areas I'm sure Bernie could be persuaded to do so. He has mentioned infrastructure on several occasions. Hillary wouldn't. uh the evidence is that we are not going to get 5% real growth. demographics is bad too
I don't care about the number. It would be better than a status quo which pretends like the economy is doing fine and if we can just continue to break down trade barriers and protect IP real growth will return.
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On February 26 2016 04:08 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 04:03 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:59 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:57 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Read the previous pages of the thread. Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true. You're terrible for saying that. Literally justifying the entire drug war and the mass incarceration of black people because "crime was really bad back then and that statement was true". By that argument the drug war is a smashing success and we should keep going and jail more people for broken window offences. But by all means if thats what you believe at least just say it. I take it you didn't read. Therefore, I won't bother responding since there s nothing to respond to. I did read. I responded to your post. You're post said that crime was awful back then and that the statement was true. Now there must be something that happened between then and now to change that truth by your opinion. that thing that changed was the drug war and the mass incarceration for people based on broken window offences. Okay, maybe you read but you have bad reading comprehension. Let me try once more: 1. Crime was bad. Superpredator was pretty much an accurate description. 2. This affected minorities. 3. The Clintons worked with leaders in the black communities to address the problem 4. The crime bill was legislated and signed 5a. Crime went down 5b. High incarceration for minorities and poor people No one contests that the results were bad and maybe other factors drove the decrease in crime rate. Without the vast benefit of hindsight, would you rather have had the administration completely ignore the problem instead of at least trying to fix it?
I could make an equal list of things for why we should have evicted the seminoles from the florida marshes or invaded Iraq. The problem you have is that you're trying to justify mass incarceration without just coming out and owning that you support it apparently.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On February 26 2016 04:12 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 04:04 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 04:02 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 04:01 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:57 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:49 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:
[quote]
Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. Considering Bernie has actively fired people in his camp for bs, I respectfully disagree. Sure, and I can appreciate that and it puts some weight on his side of the scales. Not enough though. Let's separate for a moment Hillary's campaign (which she controls) and the DNC (which she doesn't though they do coordinate). Within Hillary's campaign is David Brock. Given his history, his statement about Bernie was pretty tame, he is an attack dog on a leash. That is him barking. He'll be let off the leash for the general to, as I said before, tear the Donald a new one. He's a nasty individual, but he's a tool that has his uses and I accept that. Outside is the DNC, which shows favoritism to Hillary-- it's too much, though their long association does provide some basis for their support. However, for her to surrender the advantages seems, well, stupid. It's like turning away money from supporters (which she's actually done oddly enough, donations from the prison lobby went to some women's prison foundation IIRC but I digress). In retrospect, I think the debate issue is a little moot- these town halls are getting pretty boring and maybe there are enough events after all. I actually cannot do that as I don't believe for a second that Hillary's campaign does not have significant influence over the DNC and their actions in relation to their campaign. Am I crazy? Alright, let's get to the core of the matter: what significant advantages do you think the DNC has provided Hillary over Bernie? Superdelegates, debate schedule, media manipulation, endorsements, soliciting campaign donations are the big ones that pop to mind. 1. Superdelegates have existed for a long time. They will vote for the eventual winner. This happened in 2008. 2. Debates: at first glance, kind of iffy. But, we have insane number of town halls. In retrospect, as someone who has watched every event, there might even be too many. 3. The media is its own entity. It's fickle and will follow whatever story and push whatever narrative gets the most attention and makes the most money. 4. Endorsements. Maybe because Hillary has worked and supported the DNC and individual candidates both politically and personally they favor her. It's a non-issue. 5. Campaign donations-- I don't get this one really. Going off 4 though, Hillary has coordinated with the DNC to raise money and support downballot candidates. Bernie has not in this cycle, and has only done so slightly in past years. The DNC warchest will go to whoever wins the nomination.
1. Absolutely positively no reassurance of that.
2. There are too many now I agree; however there is no question it was rigged in the beginning to Hillary's advantage.
3. lol no.
4. lol no. Politics has never been so straightforward. Many are obviously just towing the line.
5. As in lifting the Obama ban and also helping her raise funds no doubt about it. As well as assisting her with get out the vote efforts. Obviously assisting her.
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On February 26 2016 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
Trump on Romney "I have a store that is worth more than him"
Was this just some sort of revenge prank on Romney to get him to pick a fight with Trump?
Also Ticklish you could just support Bernie then you wouldn't have to defend all the shadyness that is Hillary
I believe Hillary is the best candidate running for president. Bernie is second.
Nice try though. 
On February 26 2016 04:15 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 04:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
1. Superdelegates have existed for a long time. They will vote for the eventual winner. This happened in 2008.
2. Debates: at first glance, kind of iffy. But, we have insane number of town halls. In retrospect, as someone who has watched every event, there might even be too many.
3. The media is its own entity. It's fickle and will follow whatever story and push whatever narrative gets the most attention and makes the most money.
4. Endorsements. Maybe because Hillary has worked and supported the DNC and individual candidates both politically and personally they favor her. It's a non-issue.
5. Campaign donations-- I don't get this one really. Going off 4 though, Hillary has coordinated with the DNC to raise money and support downballot candidates. Bernie has not in this cycle, and has only done so slightly in past years. The DNC warchest will go to whoever wins the nomination. 1. Absolutely positively no reassurance of that. 2. There are too many now I agree; however there is no question it was rigged in the beginning to Hillary's advantage. 3. lol no. 4. lol no. Politics has never been so straightforward. Many are obviously just towing the line. 5. As in lifting the Obama ban and also helping her raise funds no doubt about it. As well as assisting her with get out the vote efforts. Obviously assisting her.
1. Except the historical record says otherwise. This system has been in place for a long time, this is one case where I have to roll my eyes and say to just play by the rules of the game.
2. Fine, though we can agree the issue is resolved here at least.
3. This is anecdotal: I get the WaPo daily newsletter. At the beginning, it was very much pro-Hillary. Then almost overnight, the site went pro-Bernie. It is now pro-Hillaryish again. The media isn't honest, and it is biased, but I think the bias is secondary to their primary imperative of making news and making money. Also, the media is not part of the DNC.
4. I disagree and I doubt I'll convince you.
5. The DNC warchest is for the general election. If anything, Hillary has actually hurt herself by telling her supporters to give to the DNC when she could be asking for more money for herself. The ban on lobbyists is a necessary evil-- it was largely a token gesture in the first place since that money finds its way into the system through a million other channels, and the DNC needs all the money it can get to help elect Democrats nationwide.
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On February 26 2016 04:12 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I honestly could not give any shits about the ethics of who is running our country. If the country does well under someone's leadership, I do not care about the personality or ethics of that person. If they are good for our country. Killed 60 people? Improved infrastructure, healthcare, immigration, our tax system and the economy? Sounds good to me. I think it's so sad that people care so much about the character of a candidate as a stand alone quality. Not just how that personality influences decision making and policy, but who is the person. Would I have a beer with them? Pretty important quality in a president! Just so stupid. In a perfect world, we wouldn't even be able to see the candidates. We would just read a 50 page essay by each candidate explaining the problems with our country and what they would fix. With an attached resume. That would be the perfect election. See, I find it more astounding that some people care so little about integrity and ethics, but that's a general observation of life, and not necessarily specific to politics.
Explain to me why it should matter how ethical someone is as a stand-alone idea. Do I ever talk to the president? Do I interact with the president? My point is that if the country benefits from the policies and ideas of a person, the variable of their character does not play a role in my assessment of their quality. There's a difference between someone suffering from shadyness and someone thriving because of shadyness. In a way, you could almost make a comparison to the military. We don't like the idea of killing people, but we like the idea of our country continuing to exist.
Lets say in some alternate universe, everything is the same except Lincoln killed 20 people when he was 18. Everything else the same. Was he a shitty president?
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On February 26 2016 04:12 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I honestly could not give any shits about the ethics of who is running our country. If the country does well under someone's leadership, I do not care about the personality or ethics of that person. If they are good for our country. Killed 60 people? Improved infrastructure, healthcare, immigration, our tax system and the economy? Sounds good to me. I think it's so sad that people care so much about the character of a candidate as a stand alone quality. Not just how that personality influences decision making and policy, but who is the person. Would I have a beer with them? Pretty important quality in a president! Just so stupid. In a perfect world, we wouldn't even be able to see the candidates. We would just read a 50 page essay by each candidate explaining the problems with our country and what they would fix. With an attached resume. That would be the perfect election. See, I find it more astounding that some people care so little about integrity and ethics, but that's a general observation of life, and not necessarily specific to politics.
People care, but the endless debate about who is more lily white is really tiresome. I don’t think Bill Clinton is an amazing person that I want around, but he ran the country well and we were better off by the end of his terms. Obama isn’t a perfect human and failed on some of his promises, but I’m ok with the job he did. My brother isn't going to be shipped over seas again any time soon, so that pretty much gets him my stamp of approval.
I got a lot of shit to worry about, including the 3 trees that are threatening to fall on my house. I only have so much time to commit to who is the best progressive before I default to my “who is going to keep the lights on and not fuck up this country.”
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