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On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online.
Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote
"We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel."
If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 25 2016 23:45 oneofthem wrote:
i genuinely feel extremely bad about the way the BLM movement has gone. this sort of stuff is precisely the outcome i was concerned about back when the first mass protests were happening. the reception to these movements by the privileged mainstream society is extremely sensitive to any 'bad' behavior because of the implicit or explicit bias and inability to relate to particular ghetto experiences.
And why should they? Frankly you sound like those I know who rationalize Islamic terrorism as a means of defending against foreign imperialism.
In the court of public opinion, the ends do not justify the means, nor should they. You can't run a civil rights movement with violence and expect people to be happy about it.
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If you don't vote, nothing happens. The parties are not going to alter anything or change their tactics because of you or the small number of people that protest in this fashion. The majority of Americans don't vote. You are joining the apathy crowd. Being part of the process is how you signal you can be reached and you will vote again. National elections are a binary option, but there are plenty of other races that have more options and ways to make your displeasure with the system known.
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United States42555 Posts
I liked Mitthew. Would take him as POTUS over Trump any day.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On February 26 2016 03:43 Plansix wrote:
If you don't vote, nothing happens. The parties are not going to alter anything or change their tactics because of you or the small number of people that protest in this fashion. The majority of Americans don't vote. You are joining the apathy crowd. Being part of the process is how you signal you can be reached and you will vote again. National elections are a binary option, but there are plenty of other races that have more options and ways to make your displeasure with the system known.
Who here isn't voting?
Or is this just some general rant about the American people...
And please don't try to present to me a false dichotomy. In a general presidential election my vote is plenty fine with a third-party candidate if I wish it to be.
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On February 26 2016 03:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:35 IgnE wrote:
Acquiescing to blackmail is the first step to being an adult. Got it.
Trump would be an average president. How many racist bigoted presidents have we had in our history?
Hillary is in my nightmares, Plansix. Let's certainly never forget the great paragon of progressives, Woodrow Wilson!
“Segregation is not a humiliation but a benefit, and ought to be so regarded by you gentlemen.”
“The domestic slaves, at any rate, and almost all who were much under the master’s eye, were happy and well cared for.”
“[Reconstruction government was detested] not because the Republican Party was dreaded but because the dominance of an ignorant and inferior race was justly dreaded.”
And my personal favorite for what the fuck wilson
“Now came multitudes of men of the lowest class from the south of Italy, and men of the meaner sort out of Hungary and Poland, men out of the ranks, where there was neither skill nor energy nor any initiative of quick intelligence, and they came in numbers which increased from year to year, as if the countries of the south of Europe were disburdening themselves of the more sordid and hapless elements of their population.”
At least its not as bad as the guy who he was running against for the nominee who called for the pre preemptive hanging of half a million ethnic German citizens from the lampposts because of WW1.
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On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs.
I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work.
If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing.
On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat.
Read the previous pages of the thread. Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true.
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On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat.
Is everyone here not getting that being a Democrat in the 90s is different than being a democrat in the 2010s? The party and country has moved. Some of the people are the same (the Clintons), but they were doing Democrat stuff back in the 90s. What is Liberal/Democrat and what is Republican/Conservative moves as the issues the country faces shifts. Democrats were in the wilderness post Reagan and the 3rd way Dems brought the party back into elected office. Modern, Obama Democrats are significantly more liberal than the 90s 3rd way Dems. Hillary has run her race making it clear that she intends to be a modern, Obama Democrat.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing.
Considering Bernie has actively fired people in his camp for bs, I respectfully disagree.
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Oh please Woodrow Wilson has a rich presidency. Taking some quotes from the 1910s with 2010 morality is ridiculous. It was only a decade ago that Obama, Hillary, Bush, Mccain, and Romney were all against gay marriage.
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On February 26 2016 03:47 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:43 Plansix wrote:
If you don't vote, nothing happens. The parties are not going to alter anything or change their tactics because of you or the small number of people that protest in this fashion. The majority of Americans don't vote. You are joining the apathy crowd. Being part of the process is how you signal you can be reached and you will vote again. National elections are a binary option, but there are plenty of other races that have more options and ways to make your displeasure with the system known. Who here isn't voting? Or is this just some general rant about the American people... And please don't try to present to me a false dichotomy. In a general presidential election my vote is plenty fine with a third-party candidate if I wish it to be.
That is fine. My state leans so far toward democrats that it will never go the other way and plenty of people are in that situation. If you are in a swing state, I'm sure you are well aware.
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On February 26 2016 03:49 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Is everyone here not getting that being a Democrat in the 90s is different than being a democrat in the 2010s? The party and country has moved. Some of the people are the same (the Clintons), but they were doing Democrat stuff back in the 90s. What is Liberal/Democrat and what is Republican/Conservative moves as the issues the country faces shifts. Democrats were in the wilderness post Reagan and the 3rd way Dems brought the party back into elected office. Modern, Obama Democrats are significantly more liberal than the 90s 3rd way Dems. Hillary has run her race making it clear that she intends to be a modern, Obama Democrat.
And they tried to put forward a single payer healthcare system. That thing blew up in their face so hard that they are still feeling the aftershocks. I don't think people were pay attention in the 90s or something.
Edit: Also crime was crazy and the 80s were worse. People used to not go to central park at all, let alone at night.
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On February 26 2016 03:49 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Is everyone here not getting that being a Democrat in the 90s is different than being a democrat in the 2010s? The party and country has moved. Some of the people are the same (the Clintons), but they were doing Democrat stuff back in the 90s. What is Liberal/Democrat and what is Republican/Conservative moves as the issues the country faces shifts. Democrats were in the wilderness post Reagan and the 3rd way Dems brought the party back into elected office. Modern, Obama Democrats are significantly more liberal than the 90s 3rd way Dems. Hillary has run her race making it clear that she intends to be a modern, Obama Democrat.
What the hell are you talking about? So we should just ignore everything about a candidates past and just judge them on what policy that they're presenting now? You'd vote for hitler 20 years after the holocaust because he isn't about hateing the jews anymore? Obama hasn't done anything in the white house to even judge on what kind of policy he'd be about. The only things he was able to do in his first years were decided by the conservative elements of his congressional majority.
This is what pisses me off the most about Hillary supporters. Integrity and consistency matter god dammit.
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The problem was the solution was to shit all over black (and brown) people's constitutional rights, and places like Ferguson and beyond are still enduring those lasting legacies.
Typical American solution to high crime, ignore as much white crime as possible and lock up any POC you can call criminals.
Modern manifestation would be the Heroin epidemic in NE and FergusonPD fighting reform.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On February 26 2016 03:54 Sermokala wrote:
This is what pisses me off the most about Hillary supporters. Integrity and consistency matter god dammit.
Yeah... what happened to the liberals who got on Romney's case for pretty much being Hillary?
#freesamizdat
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On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Read the previous pages of the thread. Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true.
You're terrible for saying that. Literally justifying the entire drug war and the mass incarceration of black people because "crime was really bad back then and that statement was true". By that argument the drug war is a smashing success and we should keep going and jail more people for broken window offences.
But by all means if thats what you believe at least just say it.
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On February 26 2016 03:49 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. Considering Bernie has actively fired people in his camp for bs, I respectfully disagree.
Sure, and I can appreciate that and it puts some weight on his side of the scales. Not enough though.
Let's separate for a moment Hillary's campaign (which she controls) and the DNC (which she doesn't though they do coordinate). Within Hillary's campaign is David Brock. Given his history, his statement about Bernie was pretty tame, he is an attack dog on a leash. That is him barking. He'll be let off the leash for the general to, as I said before, tear the Donald a new one. He's a nasty individual, but he's a tool that has his uses and I accept that. Outside is the DNC, which shows favoritism to Hillary-- it's too much, though their long association does provide some basis for their support. However, for her to surrender the advantages seems, well, stupid. It's like turning away money from supporters (which she's actually done oddly enough, donations from the prison lobby went to some women's prison foundation IIRC but I digress). In retrospect, I think the debate issue is a little moot- these town halls are getting pretty boring and maybe there are enough events after all.
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On February 26 2016 03:57 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Read the previous pages of the thread. Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true. You're terrible for saying that. Literally justifying the entire drug war and the mass incarceration of black people because "crime was really bad back then and that statement was true". By that argument the drug war is a smashing success and we should keep going and jail more people for broken window offences. But by all means if thats what you believe at least just say it.
Best election ever. So much exposing.
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On February 26 2016 03:57 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:48 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs. I've come out against the DNC's favoritism with regards to debates and a lot of shit that's been pulled. Still, I've made the calculation you've described and decided it's something I can live with. I agree there are problems, but to me they are a sign of not a fundamentally flawed and unsaveable system, but one that needs a lot of work. If anything, I think the Bernie side is more guilty of whitewashing, deflecting and dismissing. On February 26 2016 03:42 Sermokala wrote:On February 26 2016 03:31 ticklishmusic wrote:
Your premise that Hillary is only recently progressive is incorrect. We are talking about someone who organized protests when MLK was assassinated, went undercover in the South after graduating from Yale Law to research discrimination violations in Southern schools, then went on the record against poor treatment of women in China and poor treatment of LGBT individuals in Africa. She swung towards the center somewhat, but she has always been very progressive after a brief romance with Goldwater (who is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be).
I've already said if Bernie wins I'll vote for him and more. However, even ignoring the fact I'm Team Hillary, I find it mathematically unlikely he will win the nomination based on all the information we have now.
I find it interesting that you'd be amenable to Hillary and David Brock in the general... if it's in support of Bernie.
I don't see a particular problem with trying to convince people to vote for the candidate I support. That's called campaigning. GH has convinced to vote for Bernie IRL. I've done the same for Hillary IRL and online. Do you even see a thing hillary did when she was with bill clinton in the white house? When she was first lady she said and I quote "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called 'super-predators,' "No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why then ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel." If you want to call that progressive go right ahead. Her entire governmental legacy is as a conservative democrat. Read the previous pages of the thread. Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true. You're terrible for saying that. Literally justifying the entire drug war and the mass incarceration of black people because "crime was really bad back then and that statement was true". By that argument the drug war is a smashing success and we should keep going and jail more people for broken window offences. But by all means if thats what you believe at least just say it.
I take it you didn't read. Therefore, I won't bother responding since there s nothing to respond to.
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On February 26 2016 03:37 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 03:33 Mohdoo wrote:On February 26 2016 03:30 Souma wrote:On February 26 2016 03:28 Mercy13 wrote:On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.
I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.
There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.
And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but you reducing Hillary's supporters to people suffering "disgusting apathy" is very unfair. The policy stakes are yyyuuugggee right now. Solely with supreme court nominations (let only executive agency appointments and executive orders) the next president is going to be able to implement drastic policy and social changes, for better or worse. The GOP now controls 2 of the 3 branches of the federal government, as well as most state and local governments. If the next president is not a liberal we are going to have massive set backs in climate policy, racial justice, tax policy, campaign finance, abortion rights, and virtually everything else progressives care about. On climate policy alone, literally millions of lives could be at stake. I plan to vote for whoever can best prevent that from happening, and I believe that's Hillary. Bernie's left-wing progressive brand is just too far from the mainstream to have a great chance in the general. I could be wrong of course, and if Bernie wins the nomination I'll gladly support him. However, I think the GOP is correct to desperately want to run against him instead of against Hillary. Read again: I'm accusing people who are approving her and the DNC's underhanded tactics those with "disgusting apathy." There's a difference between approving the tactics and saying "Those tactics are the price I pay for not having trump as president? Yes, that's fine." If I thought there was even a shred of chance for Bernie to win a general, it'd be a different story. I do not have the slightest amount of faith that America is ready for him, as Plansix explained. Or you could call out your candidate and the establishment for being dirty and still support her because of what you mentioned above. Or what, would that be a little too hard on your conscience if you guys were to accept the fact that Hillary and the DNC are a bit shadier than you'd like yet still vote for them? Instead of saying, "Hey that's the name of the game," have some integrity ffs.
I honestly could not give any shits about the ethics of who is running our country. If the country does well under someone's leadership, I do not care about the personality or ethics of that person. If they are good for our country. Killed 60 people? Improved infrastructure, healthcare, immigration, our tax system and the economy? Sounds good to me.
I think it's so sad that people care so much about the character of a candidate as a stand alone quality. Not just how that personality influences decision making and policy, but who is the person. Would I have a beer with them? Pretty important quality in a president! Just so stupid. In a perfect world, we wouldn't even be able to see the candidates. We would just read a 50 page essay by each candidate explaining the problems with our country and what they would fix. With an attached resume. That would be the perfect election.
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EPT
