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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
February 25 2016 16:59 GMT
#60521
Oh, I thought it was some weird disconnect where it turned out the ending was basically a dream, it all seemed way too happy and perfect. A bit like the Inception ending, it's ambiguous.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
February 25 2016 17:05 GMT
#60522
Crime rates (and associated stats) in major cities over the past five decades is pretty spectacular as far as graphs go. It puts the "x is worse that it's even been" in useful perspective.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
February 25 2016 17:11 GMT
#60523
On February 26 2016 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
Re: BLM, the time where we passed the crime bills was a vastly different time. I don't remember much since I was like 4 (maybe Seuss and a few others do?), but I've done a good bit of reading about it. It was a bad time. Like it or not, the crime issue was quite real. In New Orleans there were parts of the East, and in Atlanta we still have Bankhead. There were some bad parts of urban cities that were close to warzones or the post-apocalyptic looting you see in movies. As I've said before, these initiatives were made with the input and support of the black community and there was far ranging unintended consequences which have not been properly corrected. To blame the Clintons for all the incarceration and disproportionate effect on minorities ignores the backdrop in which the legislation was passed and the very real problem it was intended to address. Specific to this incident: that girl was a heckler. The end.


That's Hillarysplainin (proper use).

Problem is all the faux outrage from Hillary supporters about sexism or claiming Bernie "doesn't care about black lives" from Brock after one of Sanders ad's and the dismissal of rational explanations or contextualizing as "Berniesplainin" means that bridge has been Berned.

People are just parroting the explanation from the Hillary camp. What they are all missing is the comment is the least relevant part of the story.


I have never said that Sanders doesn't care about black lives. He doe but he doesn't know how to connect with them and doesn't really seem to get that he doesn't understand them. It's like that South Park clip where Stan says "I don't get it".

Okay, so why does Sanders get to justify votes and such with context, but the Clintons don't?

The problem here is that the girl was a heckler, plain and simple. Hillary offered her a chance to ask a question, but the girl just kept on talking about superpredators and things, she was not there to engage on the issues. From my perspective, she just wanted a "gotcha" moment. Compare this to when Bernie got interrupted by BLM activists. He ended up surrendering the stage. Neither that nor kicking hecklers out are the correct response, or one that looks good. Dealing with hecklers is hard. Outside of these, both candidates have met with BLM and other groups privately to discuss the issues.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 25 2016 17:21 GMT
#60524
This will cause some major sphincter tightening among the Republican establishment:

Marco Rubio is getting clobbered by Donald Trump in home state of Florida, where a Quinnipiac University poll shows the frontrunner is polling at an all-time high in the Republican race for president.

Trump's 44-28 percent lead over Rubio reflects the momentum of the New York billionaire’s string of first-place finishes in the last three early state races, and it blunts the Florida senator's argument that he's the only candidate who can defeat the frontrunner in a one-on-one race.

Also, the results give more ammunition to Texas Sen. Ted Cruz and Ohio Gov. John Kasich — running a distant third and fourth in the Florida survey — to say that Rubio should leave the race because they're doing better in polls of their home states than Rubio is in his.

"It’s hard to see how Senator Rubio can win his party’s nomination without winning his home state," said Peter A. Brown, director of the Quinnipiac poll.


The rest, including some interesting internals, is here.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22283 Posts
February 25 2016 17:22 GMT
#60525
On February 26 2016 02:21 xDaunt wrote:
This will cause some major sphincter tightening among the Republican establishment:

Show nested quote +
Marco Rubio is getting clobbered by Donald Trump in home state of Florida, where a Quinnipiac University poll shows the frontrunner is polling at an all-time high in the Republican race for president.

Trump's 44-28 percent lead over Rubio reflects the momentum of the New York billionaire’s string of first-place finishes in the last three early state races, and it blunts the Florida senator's argument that he's the only candidate who can defeat the frontrunner in a one-on-one race.

Also, the results give more ammunition to Texas Sen. Ted Cruz and Ohio Gov. John Kasich — running a distant third and fourth in the Florida survey — to say that Rubio should leave the race because they're doing better in polls of their home states than Rubio is in his.

"It’s hard to see how Senator Rubio can win his party’s nomination without winning his home state," said Peter A. Brown, director of the Quinnipiac poll.


The rest, including some interesting internals, is here.

Part of me still does not want to accept it but Trump is going to be the Republican nominee.
My god ><
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23893 Posts
February 25 2016 17:32 GMT
#60526
On February 26 2016 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2016 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
Re: BLM, the time where we passed the crime bills was a vastly different time. I don't remember much since I was like 4 (maybe Seuss and a few others do?), but I've done a good bit of reading about it. It was a bad time. Like it or not, the crime issue was quite real. In New Orleans there were parts of the East, and in Atlanta we still have Bankhead. There were some bad parts of urban cities that were close to warzones or the post-apocalyptic looting you see in movies. As I've said before, these initiatives were made with the input and support of the black community and there was far ranging unintended consequences which have not been properly corrected. To blame the Clintons for all the incarceration and disproportionate effect on minorities ignores the backdrop in which the legislation was passed and the very real problem it was intended to address. Specific to this incident: that girl was a heckler. The end.


That's Hillarysplainin (proper use).

Problem is all the faux outrage from Hillary supporters about sexism or claiming Bernie "doesn't care about black lives" from Brock after one of Sanders ad's and the dismissal of rational explanations or contextualizing as "Berniesplainin" means that bridge has been Berned.

People are just parroting the explanation from the Hillary camp. What they are all missing is the comment is the least relevant part of the story.


I have never said that Sanders doesn't care about black lives. He doe but he doesn't know how to connect with them and doesn't really seem to get that he doesn't understand them. It's like that South Park clip where Stan says "I don't get it".

Okay, so why does Sanders get to justify votes and such with context, but the Clintons don't?

The problem here is that the girl was a heckler, plain and simple. Hillary offered her a chance to ask a question, but the girl just kept on talking about superpredators and things, she was not there to engage on the issues. From my perspective, she just wanted a "gotcha" moment. Compare this to when Bernie got interrupted by BLM activists. He ended up surrendering the stage. Neither that nor kicking hecklers out are the correct response, or one that looks good. Dealing with hecklers is hard. Outside of these, both candidates have met with BLM and other groups privately to discuss the issues.


Of course you didn't, Hillary hired a professional character assassin for that. You just support her anyway

David Brock, a longtime ally of the Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, blasted rival Bernie Sanders on Thursday, suggesting he doesn't care about black lives.

Brock, who heads several groups aiding Clinton's bid, offered the accusation while criticizing a new ad from Sanders that Brock said was a "significant slight to the Democratic base."

"From this ad it seems black lives don't matter much to Bernie Sanders," Brock told The Associated Press.


Source

Could you please make sure you spread your opinion on the protester on Twitter? I wouldn't want folks to miss out on your excellent explanation.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-25 17:34:53
February 25 2016 17:33 GMT
#60527
They are a party that made it their business do to nothing for 3 years, expect shut down the government and whine about how unreasonable Obama is. They promised things they could never deliver and did so knowingly. When congress has the lowest approval rating in history, they assumed it didn’t apply to them. Even though the control both the house and senate. The master plan of "blame Obama for the gridlock" has not paid off.

The reality distortion field that convinced them Mitt stood a chance is still going strong. They are so far up their own ass they can’t remember what the sun looked like.

Edit: GH, your post attacking anyone who says anything slightly nice about Clinton are growing tiresome.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-25 17:53:01
February 25 2016 17:42 GMT
#60528
And Bernie surrogates have never, ever done or said anything bad? Brock is an operative. He used to be a hardcore rightwing one too (he had a couple takedowns of the Clintons actually). Even if he's become a progressive, he's not a very nice guy and I'm not a huge fan of his work. But, unlike you it seems that I'm willing to accept my candidate is not perfect (far from it) instead of whitewashing the bad parts and pointing out the problems with the other side.

I don't use Twitter, but I have no problem with my statements being trotted out in the public or elsewhere.

Random additional point:
+ Show Spoiler +
I think we still are very far from understanding each other. We are both idealists and progressives who share a lot of the same goals and hopes and dreams for America. However, and I don't mean this in a bad way necessarily, my overarching impression is you are a blind idealist-- you believe good is the enemy of great. Perhaps you adjust your scale in a way that so great is now good and good is now mediocre, which is what I think you've sort of done for Bernie vs. Hillary. I am an idealist as well, though I'm willing to accept compromise, even if it's David Brock, in pursuit of a better America. For me, good is the best we can afford-- Hillary or a BMW (jokes, can't afford a BMW). Bernie's position is great, but like an Aston Martin, it is not something we can reach.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-25 17:49:59
February 25 2016 17:49 GMT
#60529
What Brock said is nothing new to Democrat politics. It's more of the same, tired race-baiting (or other identity politics-baiting) that people on the right have been complaining about for years.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23893 Posts
February 25 2016 17:49 GMT
#60530
On February 26 2016 02:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
And Bernie surrogates have never, ever done or said anything bad? Brock is an operative. He used to be a hardcore rightwing one too (he had a couple takedowns of the Clintons actually). Even if he's become a progressive, he's not a very nice guy and I'm not a huge fan of his work. But, unlike you it seems that I'm willing to accept my candidate is not perfect (far from it) instead of whitewashing the bad parts and pointing out the problems with the other side.

I don't use Twitter, but I have no problem with my statements being trotted out in the public or elsewhere.


Of course they have. None of them intentionally undermined a sexual harassment allegation (by a black woman no less) by printing known lies to make her look "a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty" though.

You're just willing to accept more than I am in exchange for her being good at playing a corrupt game.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
February 25 2016 17:53 GMT
#60531
On February 25 2016 23:18 Deathstar wrote:
I would sympathize but monolithic voters are what they are.

Obama and Reid are currently vetting a former Republican governor who's anti-union for SCOTUS. I don't even...

He's trolling.

On February 25 2016 23:47 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2016 23:38 Deathstar wrote:
On February 25 2016 23:35 LegalLord wrote:
On February 25 2016 23:18 Deathstar wrote:
I would sympathize but monolithic voters are what they are.

Obama and Reid are currently vetting a former Republican governor who's anti-union for SCOTUS. I don't even...

I wonder if they really want him as a candidate or if they're trying to make the Republican senate look like morons for undermining the constitution.


Considering Obama pushed hard for TPP against the Democratic Party, I don't even know what to think of Obama now. I think he's serious. Republicans will continue to say "no" until they say yes to an anti-union Republican for SCOTUS under a Democratic presidency.

Although he fought against the local unions when he was governor, you need to look at his rulings as a judge as well. They are two very separate offices. He is also pro-solar energy as well.

But this is clearly an intentional leak by the White House and they might not even being considering him. Its just to get the news talking about the Obama’s choices, rather than the senate saying they won’t hold hearings. Its to start the press asking the senate “well what about this person” so they are painted into a corner.

Its an attempt, but blocking a Republican makes their stance seem more principled.
On February 26 2016 00:15 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2016 00:12 oneofthem wrote:
On February 26 2016 00:08 Plansix wrote:
He said the ACA is unconstitutional, so I am not sure how seriously I can take this reported leak. It looks like pure bait.
may just be pure rhetoric. he opted into the exchange as governor.


One could argue opting into the exchange isn't exactly a hugely progressive move. A lot of republican governors grumbled their way towards opting into the exchange. I agree with Plansix. Nominating a judge that said your hallmark legislation was unconstitutional makes my head tilt.

Its not really progressive at all, except in the sense that it puts your state budget under the thumb of the Federal government (why it was deemed partially unconstitutional and states were even allowed to opt out). But it is a shit ton of "free" money that is getting taxed from your citizens no matter what. Its a Diner's Dilemma problem, but still eventually a bad deal for a lot of states once the free money phase ends. Medicaid spending is crippling a lot of state budgets.

I mean, people complain about infrastructure crumbling, but its clearly being crowded out by transfer payment spending.
Freeeeeeedom
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 25 2016 17:54 GMT
#60532
good for hillary for taking advantage of creative tactics but keep the damage minimized.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
February 25 2016 17:55 GMT
#60533
On February 26 2016 02:21 xDaunt wrote:
This will cause some major sphincter tightening among the Republican establishment:

Show nested quote +
Marco Rubio is getting clobbered by Donald Trump in home state of Florida, where a Quinnipiac University poll shows the frontrunner is polling at an all-time high in the Republican race for president.

Trump's 44-28 percent lead over Rubio reflects the momentum of the New York billionaire’s string of first-place finishes in the last three early state races, and it blunts the Florida senator's argument that he's the only candidate who can defeat the frontrunner in a one-on-one race.

Also, the results give more ammunition to Texas Sen. Ted Cruz and Ohio Gov. John Kasich — running a distant third and fourth in the Florida survey — to say that Rubio should leave the race because they're doing better in polls of their home states than Rubio is in his.

"It’s hard to see how Senator Rubio can win his party’s nomination without winning his home state," said Peter A. Brown, director of the Quinnipiac poll.


The rest, including some interesting internals, is here.


What do you think? Did the establishment have this coming? Are you hoping for a GOP rebirth?
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-25 18:01:42
February 25 2016 17:56 GMT
#60534
Brock is an attack dog, but the leash is very much still on. In the general, he's going to tear the Donald a new one. If anything, using him is the same as the DNC taking money from lobbyists.

GH, for the general I would like you to consider this. From my understanding, you are two things, very progressive and very anti establishment. That's fine and I don't expect to change you on that even with a few hundred posts here in the next few months really. If it's Hillary vs. Donald, I think you have a choice between the two. Figure out which one actually matters to you more. Obviously not that black and white as Hillary is less progressive than you'd like and the Donald is only anti establishment in a fairly narrow sense, but it's a way to think about it.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
February 25 2016 18:12 GMT
#60535
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.

I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.

There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.

And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke.
Writer
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23893 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-25 18:16:17
February 25 2016 18:14 GMT
#60536
On February 26 2016 02:56 ticklishmusic wrote:
Brock is an attack dog, but the leash is very much still on. In the general, he's going to tear the Donald a new one. If anything, using him is the same as the DNC taking money from lobbyists.

GH, for the general I would like you to consider this. From my understanding, you are two things, very progressive and very anti establishment. That's fine and I don't expect to change you on that even with a few hundred posts here in the next few months really. If it's Hillary vs. Donald, I think you have a choice between the two. Figure out which one actually matters to you more. Obviously not that black and white as Hillary is less progressive than you'd like and the Donald is only anti establishment in a fairly narrow sense, but it's a way to think about it.


Hillary is pretty much only progressive recently, Trump is newly conservative and anti-establishment.

They have both almost done a complete 180 in the last few years, just watching Hillary makes me dizzy from TPP to Keystone to running away from Obama back to hugging him and on and on. If it's Trump vs Hillary that's on the people who support them.

Just support Bernie, not like Hillary will just vanish, she'll still be able to use Brock if she wants, and Hillary can use her ruined reputation as a shield for Bernie in the general like one likes

Rather than try to figure out which one of two bad choices, I'll just take door #3 the anti-establishment progressive.
On February 26 2016 03:12 Souma wrote:
He doesn't have to vote for Hillary in the general, and it's pretty ridiculous of you and others to pressure people into voting for her if she takes the nomination.

I did not vote for Obama in 2012 and I do not plan on voting for Hillary in 2016. Why in the world should anyone vote for someone or some party that does not represent them? The DNC is what it is today because of voters who will settle for the "less worse" instead of challenging the establishment to represent the people who vote for them.

There's currently no way the Democratic candidate, whether it's Hillary or Bernie, will lose in the general from my observations, however even if my vote was the decider and it was Hillary vs. Trump, I'd still vote Green and the DNC would have no one to blame but themselves for becoming the shithole they are now.

And for the Hillary supporters to support her and and the DNC for their actions just because "it always happens," or "Bernie isn't perfect either," or whatever the hell, leave your disgusting apathy at the door because it's further ruining the democratic process that is already a joke.


phew! I saw the pen and thought it was xDaunt almost fell out of my chair.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 25 2016 18:20 GMT
#60537
In a national election, expecting a candidate to 100% meet your approval on all fronts isn't reasonable. Its why we have 3 branches of government, senators, house reps, state and local government. The President is the president of everyone, not just the people that voted them in. I'm not a huge fan of Hillary by any metric, but I'll vote for her over the nightmare that is Trump. I know people that are terrified of him getting elected and I can see beyond my personal need to feel 100% represented by the President. That isn't apathy, but accepting the process for what it is and understanding that I am not the only person voting. That the world does not resolve around me and what I want out of a President.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
February 25 2016 18:24 GMT
#60538
Trump will make America great again why would you be terrified of him?
rip passion
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
February 25 2016 18:24 GMT
#60539
'accepting the process for what it is' = step 1 of apathy.

I don't agree with Bernie nor Jill Stein 100% and implying that I'd only vote for someone if I agreed with them 100% is the same dumb misimpression people have with Bernie the "uncompromising."

There is a limit to how much crap I'm willing to swallow. The DNC and Hillary are well beyond that limit.
Writer
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
February 25 2016 18:25 GMT
#60540
On February 26 2016 03:20 Plansix wrote:
In a national election, expecting a candidate to 100% meet your approval on all fronts isn't reasonable. Its why we have 3 branches of government, senators, house reps, state and local government. The President is the president of everyone, not just the people that voted them in. I'm not a huge fan of Hillary by any metric, but I'll vote for her over the nightmare that is Trump. I know people that are terrified of him getting elected and I can see beyond my personal need to feel 100% represented by the President. That isn't apathy, but accepting the process for what it is and understanding that I am not the only person voting. That the world does not resolve around me and what I want out of a President.


I think you're strawmanning GH a bit here. It's perfectly reasonable for him to consider Clinton too different from his ideal candidate to consider voting for her over a Green party or other more leftist option. It's likely that's what he would have been doing anyway if Sanders wasn't in the race.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
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