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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 297

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-24 00:41:21
June 24 2013 00:41 GMT
#5921
On June 24 2013 08:48 screamingpalm wrote:
You know all of those debates surrounding ToS/EULA contracts and how they wouldn't hold up in court? Might want to rethink that, especially if Justice Scalia ever has anything to say about it. :D

Show nested quote +

The Supreme Court sided with big corporations Thursday when it ruled 5-3 that companies can write contracts that force small businesses to challenge monopolistic practices on an unaffordable individual arbitration basis rather than through class-action lawsuits, effectively killing the ability of small businesses to defend themselves in court against larger predatory ones.

In the case, called American Express v. Italian Colors Restaurant, the eatery and a group of other small businesses alleging antitrust violations by the credit card giant banded together in a class-action suit to make their cause valuable enough to attract a lawyer. They alleged that American Express “used its monopoly power to force them to accept its bank-issued knock-off credit cards as a condition of taking regular, more elite American Express cards—and then [charged] them 30 percent higher fees for the privilege,” reports Stephanie Mencimer in Mother Jones.

In response, American Express referred to the small print in its contract with the businesses, which blocked the companies from suing both individually and together. The credit card company insisted each business had to submit its claim to a private arbitrator employed by American Express.

The merchants figured that the process would cost each of them $1 million to collect a maximum possible amount of $38,000. The small businesses pressed forward with their case and prevailed in the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which ruled that the arbitration clause referred to by American Express “was unconscionable because it prevented the plaintiffs from having their claims heard in any forum,” Mencimer writes.

However, the Supreme Court, whose conservative majority is ever the protector of big business, “has made class action litigation much harder to bring, mostly notably in 2011 when it struck down a huge sex discrimination case brought by 1.5 million women working at Walmart,” Mencimer continues.

An amicus brief submitted in the case on behalf of the small businesses, by lawyers for AARP, Public Justice, and the American Association for Justice warned that if the court sided with American Express, “statutes intended by Congress to protect weaker parties against stronger parties will essentially be gutted. Small businesses might as well move to a different country where they no longer enjoy the protection of the antitrust laws. At the whim of an employer, workers could be required to prospectively waive their Title VII [anti-discrimination] rights. Consumer protection laws such as the Truth in Lending Act could be silently, but inescapably, repealed by corporations with the stroke of a pen.”

The decision could have bad consequences for all types of institutions and individuals. Mencimer writes: “[I]f the court ruled that Amex could use an arbitration clause in a contract with a much less powerful party to escape punishment under” an existing antitrust act, “there’s no reason why a big company couldn’t create contracts that prevent people from filing sex discrimination, consumer fraud, or other similar claims in any venue. Laws that Congress passed to protect the public could simply be voided through artfully written arbitration clauses that create expensive hurdles to pressing a claim.”

Justice Antonin Scalia, who wrote the majority opinion in the case, wasn’t impressed. He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties. He agreed that “if a big company breaks the law and screws you, but you signed a contract with an arbitration clause giving away your right to sue or bring class action, you don’t have a case, even if federal law says you do.”

Justice Clarence Thomas concurred. He said Italian Colors voluntarily entered into its agreement with American Express. But, as Mencimer points out, “anyone who’s ever tried to open a bank account knows it’s virtually impossible to engage in commerce these days without being forced to sign a contract in which you forgo your right to sue the company if it rips you off.”

Justice Elena Kagan gets this point. In her biting dissent aimed squarely at Scalia, she called the majority opinion a “betrayal of our precedents and of federal statutes like antitrust laws.” She observed that the court would never uphold an arbitration agreement that explicitly banned merchants from bringing an antitrust claim, yet that’s effectively what the Amex contract does by compelling merchants to give up the option of class actions in court. She noted that by ignoring several precedents, the majority is providing companies “every incentive to draft their agreements to extract backdoor waivers of statutory rights.” That is, they will use contracts to immunize themselves from laws they don’t like.

Kagan was blunt: “If the arbitration clause is enforceable, Amex has insulated itself from antitrust liability—even if it has in fact violated the law. The monopolist gets to use its monopoly power to insist on a contract effectively depriving its victims of all legal recourse. And here is the nutshell version of today’s opinion, admirably flaunted rather than camouflaged: Too darn bad.”


Source


Scalia is a fucking joke and needs to be punched in the face. A complete disgrace to this nation's legal system.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
June 24 2013 00:51 GMT
#5922
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
June 24 2013 01:05 GMT
#5923
On June 24 2013 09:32 aksfjh wrote:
They need to change the Federal Arbitration Act. Arbitration should have never been allowed to be a substitute for legal action, especially as a preemptive clause in a mandatory contractual agreement.

I don't know about never, but if the court is going to be completely unsympathetic to economic circumstances and say that nothing guarantees an affordable procedural path to arbitration (i.e. bringing the claim costs more than winning), then I agree that the law should be changed. It simply gives way too much power to big companies like Amex.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22406 Posts
June 24 2013 01:07 GMT
#5924
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-24 01:29:04
June 24 2013 01:19 GMT
#5925
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
June 24 2013 01:32 GMT
#5926
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.


Reagan continuing to haunt us posthumous. Have to admit even as an independent, the Dems have a strong argument in supporting them, if nothing else, for the SCOTUS nominations.
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
June 24 2013 02:21 GMT
#5927
On June 24 2013 08:14 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 05:18 Shiori wrote:
On June 23 2013 12:05 oneofthem wrote:
scientific models are replaced by better scientific models that are backwards compatible and account for past facts. this is different from a model being wrong, and it doesn't support skepticism about science in general.

basically it's not about proving current science wrong, distrusting it etc. it's about doing better science and overriding the current theories after you have developed better ones.

This is kinda like what I'm saying. It's unlikely that we're gonna have theories which pass peer review and obey the scientific method which are completely invalidated by new evidence. At best, we'll find some exception or revolutionary data that causes us to expand our theory to account for that evidence. All the results that were true beforehand wouldn't just stop being true.

Alchemy never really worked afaik. Most of what we've taken from it are scientific instruments. But I could be wrong. Plus, alchemy predated the scientific method/peer review anyhow.

Nah, I'll give you a modern example: IPS cells, for which Gurdon and Yamanaka won the Nobel Prize in 2012. The way we think about cell development is completely different after their discoveries that mature cells can be reprogrammed back into stem cells. Everyone used to think that cells that had been specialized were confined to that state forever. Gurdon proved it happens in nature and Yamanaka did the proof of concept that mature cells could be turned back into stem cells and then programmed into another different kind of cell (it's proof of concept because it only works for about 1 in every 100,000 cells). It's very exciting, which is why Yamanaka won the Nobel Prize even though his discovery was only in 2006.

If you're only looking at the tightly held, controversial issues of science, then no, you probably won't live to see one side give up on the issue. But there are new frontiers and the way we approach many problems has already radically changed over your life.


Certainly. But we're not likely to find new evidence that invalidates cell theory.
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
June 24 2013 02:23 GMT
#5928
Scalia continuing to impress. Well, at least he makes the news interesting.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
June 24 2013 02:37 GMT
#5929
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 24 2013 02:55 GMT
#5930
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But if you are seen as partial you lose all business. The little guy you keep screwing will never agree to use you.
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
June 24 2013 02:58 GMT
#5931
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But no one ever has to use arbitration if they don't agree to it. A typical arbitration clause might say that the arbitrator has to be someone who is agreeable to both sides. Or it might say that each side appoints one arbitrator and then the 3rd arbitrator has to be agreed to by the first two who are appointed. Obviously you won't be in much demand as an arbitrator unless you build a reputation for being impartial. In fact, arbitrators are often retired judges.

Anyway, if you don't like the wording of the arbitration clause in the contract that you're about to sign... don't sign the contract. If you sign it anyway, don't be surprised when you find out that you have to live with it later.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 24 2013 03:00 GMT
#5932
Average Pay of Top Bankers Drops 10%

Average pay of top bankers in the U.S. and Europe including JPMorgan's Jamie Dimon and Royal Bank of Scotland's Stephen Hester dropped by a 10th last year after banks bowed to investor and regulatory pressure, Financial Times research shows.

The fall comes after a wave of high-profile shareholder revolts last year and a number of legal scandals and fines that have forced banks' boards on both sides of the Atlantic to rethink executive pay. ...

Link

Now if only we could do something really, really useful - like demand and encourage stronger capital ratios...
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
June 24 2013 03:43 GMT
#5933
On June 24 2013 11:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But if you are seen as partial you lose all business. The little guy you keep screwing will never agree to use you.

You make the assumption that the little guy will ever use you again. In reality, there are usually a handful of people you can choose from, and while retired judges, that doesn't guarantee impartial judgement. It's obviously not a blatant ruling for one party over another, but that doesn't mean they won't side with the repeat customer a majority of the time or keep compensation low.

On June 24 2013 11:58 ziggurat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But no one ever has to use arbitration if they don't agree to it. A typical arbitration clause might say that the arbitrator has to be someone who is agreeable to both sides. Or it might say that each side appoints one arbitrator and then the 3rd arbitrator has to be agreed to by the first two who are appointed. Obviously you won't be in much demand as an arbitrator unless you build a reputation for being impartial. In fact, arbitrators are often retired judges.

Anyway, if you don't like the wording of the arbitration clause in the contract that you're about to sign... don't sign the contract. If you sign it anyway, don't be surprised when you find out that you have to live with it later.

The problem is that these contracts are being issued moreso than "agreed" to. Those issuing the contracts have a tremendous advantage and monopoly power over the person being offered the contract. If certain standards can't be upheld, then it gives these contract issuers ability to legislate, which isn't the purpose.
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
June 24 2013 03:46 GMT
#5934
On June 24 2013 12:43 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 11:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But if you are seen as partial you lose all business. The little guy you keep screwing will never agree to use you.

You make the assumption that the little guy will ever use you again. In reality, there are usually a handful of people you can choose from, and while retired judges, that doesn't guarantee impartial judgement. It's obviously not a blatant ruling for one party over another, but that doesn't mean they won't side with the repeat customer a majority of the time or keep compensation low.

Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 11:58 ziggurat wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But no one ever has to use arbitration if they don't agree to it. A typical arbitration clause might say that the arbitrator has to be someone who is agreeable to both sides. Or it might say that each side appoints one arbitrator and then the 3rd arbitrator has to be agreed to by the first two who are appointed. Obviously you won't be in much demand as an arbitrator unless you build a reputation for being impartial. In fact, arbitrators are often retired judges.

Anyway, if you don't like the wording of the arbitration clause in the contract that you're about to sign... don't sign the contract. If you sign it anyway, don't be surprised when you find out that you have to live with it later.

The problem is that these contracts are being issued moreso than "agreed" to. Those issuing the contracts have a tremendous advantage and monopoly power over the person being offered the contract. If certain standards can't be upheld, then it gives these contract issuers ability to legislate, which isn't the purpose.

Are you saying that only parties with comparable leverage should be able to contract with each other? I don't follow your argument.
Tula
Profile Joined December 2010
Austria1544 Posts
June 24 2013 04:00 GMT
#5935
On June 24 2013 12:46 ziggurat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 12:43 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But if you are seen as partial you lose all business. The little guy you keep screwing will never agree to use you.

You make the assumption that the little guy will ever use you again. In reality, there are usually a handful of people you can choose from, and while retired judges, that doesn't guarantee impartial judgement. It's obviously not a blatant ruling for one party over another, but that doesn't mean they won't side with the repeat customer a majority of the time or keep compensation low.

On June 24 2013 11:58 ziggurat wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But no one ever has to use arbitration if they don't agree to it. A typical arbitration clause might say that the arbitrator has to be someone who is agreeable to both sides. Or it might say that each side appoints one arbitrator and then the 3rd arbitrator has to be agreed to by the first two who are appointed. Obviously you won't be in much demand as an arbitrator unless you build a reputation for being impartial. In fact, arbitrators are often retired judges.

Anyway, if you don't like the wording of the arbitration clause in the contract that you're about to sign... don't sign the contract. If you sign it anyway, don't be surprised when you find out that you have to live with it later.

The problem is that these contracts are being issued moreso than "agreed" to. Those issuing the contracts have a tremendous advantage and monopoly power over the person being offered the contract. If certain standards can't be upheld, then it gives these contract issuers ability to legislate, which isn't the purpose.

Are you saying that only parties with comparable leverage should be able to contract with each other? I don't follow your argument.


He is trying to say that it is common practice to protect a far weaker party against pressure from a stronger one. Frankly that ruling is a disgrace.

It is a common problem (and a fairly interesting question) at what point a TOS (or EULA or similar documents) becomes invalid, simply because it is usually a contract between two very different parties. In some legal areas you do not have a choice, you must sign that contract or you will not be able to operate at all. AmEx (or Visa) would certainly be considered such a party (someone so overwhelmingly strong compared to the other party, that legislation or jurisprudence needs to consider the protection of the other party).

In the EU (and all areas following british law to my knowledge) this has been a common thread in both legislation and rulings of the highest courts (however they might be called). It seems the US supreme court has decided to change this for the USA (or possibly this was the first applicable case they ruled on, I'll readily admit i did not research if this was a change to a prior position or a first ruling).
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
June 24 2013 04:04 GMT
#5936
On June 24 2013 12:46 ziggurat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 12:43 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But if you are seen as partial you lose all business. The little guy you keep screwing will never agree to use you.

You make the assumption that the little guy will ever use you again. In reality, there are usually a handful of people you can choose from, and while retired judges, that doesn't guarantee impartial judgement. It's obviously not a blatant ruling for one party over another, but that doesn't mean they won't side with the repeat customer a majority of the time or keep compensation low.

On June 24 2013 11:58 ziggurat wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But no one ever has to use arbitration if they don't agree to it. A typical arbitration clause might say that the arbitrator has to be someone who is agreeable to both sides. Or it might say that each side appoints one arbitrator and then the 3rd arbitrator has to be agreed to by the first two who are appointed. Obviously you won't be in much demand as an arbitrator unless you build a reputation for being impartial. In fact, arbitrators are often retired judges.

Anyway, if you don't like the wording of the arbitration clause in the contract that you're about to sign... don't sign the contract. If you sign it anyway, don't be surprised when you find out that you have to live with it later.

The problem is that these contracts are being issued moreso than "agreed" to. Those issuing the contracts have a tremendous advantage and monopoly power over the person being offered the contract. If certain standards can't be upheld, then it gives these contract issuers ability to legislate, which isn't the purpose.

Are you saying that only parties with comparable leverage should be able to contract with each other? I don't follow your argument.

No, I'm saying that you shouldn't be able to abuse contracts to circumvent or create the law.
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
June 24 2013 04:20 GMT
#5937
On June 24 2013 13:00 Tula wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 12:46 ziggurat wrote:
On June 24 2013 12:43 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But if you are seen as partial you lose all business. The little guy you keep screwing will never agree to use you.

You make the assumption that the little guy will ever use you again. In reality, there are usually a handful of people you can choose from, and while retired judges, that doesn't guarantee impartial judgement. It's obviously not a blatant ruling for one party over another, but that doesn't mean they won't side with the repeat customer a majority of the time or keep compensation low.

On June 24 2013 11:58 ziggurat wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But no one ever has to use arbitration if they don't agree to it. A typical arbitration clause might say that the arbitrator has to be someone who is agreeable to both sides. Or it might say that each side appoints one arbitrator and then the 3rd arbitrator has to be agreed to by the first two who are appointed. Obviously you won't be in much demand as an arbitrator unless you build a reputation for being impartial. In fact, arbitrators are often retired judges.

Anyway, if you don't like the wording of the arbitration clause in the contract that you're about to sign... don't sign the contract. If you sign it anyway, don't be surprised when you find out that you have to live with it later.

The problem is that these contracts are being issued moreso than "agreed" to. Those issuing the contracts have a tremendous advantage and monopoly power over the person being offered the contract. If certain standards can't be upheld, then it gives these contract issuers ability to legislate, which isn't the purpose.

Are you saying that only parties with comparable leverage should be able to contract with each other? I don't follow your argument.


He is trying to say that it is common practice to protect a far weaker party against pressure from a stronger one. Frankly that ruling is a disgrace.

It is a common problem (and a fairly interesting question) at what point a TOS (or EULA or similar documents) becomes invalid, simply because it is usually a contract between two very different parties. In some legal areas you do not have a choice, you must sign that contract or you will not be able to operate at all. AmEx (or Visa) would certainly be considered such a party (someone so overwhelmingly strong compared to the other party, that legislation or jurisprudence needs to consider the protection of the other party).

In the EU (and all areas following british law to my knowledge) this has been a common thread in both legislation and rulings of the highest courts (however they might be called). It seems the US supreme court has decided to change this for the USA (or possibly this was the first applicable case they ruled on, I'll readily admit i did not research if this was a change to a prior position or a first ruling).

Thanks for the explanation. I guess American laws are more laissez faire. I tend to be unsympathetic to the plaintiff in this case, since no one told them they had to accept American Express at their restaurant. They decided to sign up, knowing what the fees were in the contract, and then tried to weasel their way out of what they agreed to. So for them to be stuck having to pay the fees that they agreed to doesn't seem like an injustice to me.

I recognize that many people want to pay for meals with American Express. I personally use two credit cards, a Mastercard (my main card) and a Visa which I take just for places that don't accept Mastercard. And even then I sometimes get lunch at a place that doesn't take either card, and I have to pay by interac or cash. I can't say that I've ever avoided a restaurant because they wouldn't take a certain card.

I do understand your point about rules controlling the terms of contracts. Insurance contracts for example are highly regulated (and for good reason). But on the facts of this case I'm pretty comfortable with the Court's decision. I think the people who are saying it's a "disgrace" or whatnot are pretty silly:

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 24 2013 04:27 GMT
#5938
On June 24 2013 12:43 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 11:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But if you are seen as partial you lose all business. The little guy you keep screwing will never agree to use you.

You make the assumption that the little guy will ever use you again. In reality, there are usually a handful of people you can choose from, and while retired judges, that doesn't guarantee impartial judgement. It's obviously not a blatant ruling for one party over another, but that doesn't mean they won't side with the repeat customer a majority of the time or keep compensation low.

You make the assumption that little guys don't talk to each other.

You also make the assumption that big guys don't challenge each other.

Also, if there's only a few people you can choose from, and court is more expensive, who has the bargaining power? Wouldn't the arbitrator be in a great bargaining seat and therefore be very reluctant to give into a very small temptation?
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
June 24 2013 04:34 GMT
#5939
On June 24 2013 11:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But if you are seen as partial you lose all business. The little guy you keep screwing will never agree to use you.


In this case, the little guy doesn't have a choice. It's either use them or don't, but if you don't you can't make your case. Lose-lose situation.

The only choice came before the signing of the contract, but the circumstances under which that took place are beyond my knowledge so it's hard to make an opinion regarding this particular case. However, I can't agree with the Supreme Court and their broad decision. This really is giving the finger to a lot of people forced into unfavorable situations.
Writer
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 24 2013 05:05 GMT
#5940
On June 24 2013 13:34 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2013 11:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:37 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 10:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:51 aksfjh wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.

And each case is presented as an isolated incident, outside of scrutiny of the public and without a record of arguments. You can't use the arbitration decision in a court case to challenge a current law or validity of an agreement. Not only that, but arbitration is a business serving return clients who pay them, so there's the problem of impartial ruling and fairness. These small companies (and individuals) aren't likely to go into arbitration more than a few times in their entire lifetimes, but a corporation like AmEx will use this system countless times this year alone.

My understanding is that arbitrators are neutral third parties. I'm sure exceptions exist, though that's sometimes true for the courts as well.

On June 24 2013 10:07 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.


Except for the part where arbitration isnt supervised, not impartial (tho granted i wouldnt call the us justice system impartial to begin with). Nor does a quick google search seem to imply that this is even legally binding.

Aka it stacks the deck to heavily in the cooperation favor that any notion of "fair" is hard to find.


The Dutch use arbitration extensively too

Arbitration is done by 3rd parties, but that doesn't mean they're actually impartial. About the only partiality you have in government courts (outside of elected judges) occurs with personal views and leanings (and possibly when lunch was served). For arbitration, however, you introduce a very power factor: money/business. Arbitration is provided by either a company or a contractor who has the incentive to continue working. If most of the arbitration work you do is done by a handful of companies/individuals and their disputes with random people, you're going to be inclined to give them partial treatment or not see further business.

But if you are seen as partial you lose all business. The little guy you keep screwing will never agree to use you.


In this case, the little guy doesn't have a choice. It's either use them or don't, but if you don't you can't make your case. Lose-lose situation.

The only choice came before the signing of the contract, but the circumstances under which that took place are beyond my knowledge so it's hard to make an opinion regarding this particular case. However, I can't agree with the Supreme Court and their broad decision. This really is giving the finger to a lot of people forced into unfavorable situations.

Well you have to use the arbitration process. But you aren't bound to a certain, dirty arbitrator.
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