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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
June 23 2013 05:50 GMT
#5901
On June 23 2013 12:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
I don't want to be one of those conspiracy people but some events are too coincidental.

Show nested quote +
Hours before dying in a fiery car crash, award-winning journalist Michael Hastings sent an email to his colleagues, warning that federal authorities were interviewing his friends and that he needed to go "off the rada[r]" for a bit.

The email was sent around 1 p.m. on Monday, June 17. At 4:20 a.m. the following morning, Hastings died when his Mercedes, traveling at high speeds, smashed into a tree and caught on fire. He was 33.

Hastings sent the email to staff at BuzzFeed, where he was employed, but also blind-copied a friend, Staff Sgt. Joseph Biggs, on the message. Biggs, who Hastings met in 2008 when he was embedded in his unit in Afghanistan, forwarded the email to KTLA, who posted it online on Saturday.


Source

It's obvious the NSA read his email and decided it was time to act.
balls516
Profile Joined June 2013
China35 Posts
June 23 2013 09:36 GMT
#5902
there are reports on tv in china right now that hong kong has allowed snowden to leave for russia and apparently that is not his final destination. YES!!!!!
DannyJ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States5110 Posts
June 23 2013 09:39 GMT
#5903
Yeah his final destination will be a jail cell, eventually. Or living in an Embassy his whole life...
balls516
Profile Joined June 2013
China35 Posts
June 23 2013 09:47 GMT
#5904
as long as all the information he has comes out it really doesnt matter where he ends up.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21795 Posts
June 23 2013 11:54 GMT
#5905
On June 23 2013 18:47 balls516 wrote:
as long as all the information he has comes out it really doesnt matter where he ends up.


And yet nothing will change because of it. Seems like a waste regardless.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
June 23 2013 15:26 GMT
#5906
Hopefully he will go to Ecuador or Venezuela rather than Iceland. I don't really trust the Icelandic government to shelter him now that the right wing parties are back in charge(which are USA lapdogs).
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-23 19:50:48
June 23 2013 19:50 GMT
#5907


Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) made a push Sunday for his fellow Republicans to get behind immigration reform, saying if it faills the GOP will be blamed and "our party is in trouble with Hispanics.

"As to the Republican Party, here is my firm belief, America is not divided on this, Graham said on Fox News Sunday. "Seventy percent of Americans including Republicans support an earned pathway to citizenship over a thirteen year period where you get in the back of the line, learn the language and pay a fine. So to the Republican Party this is a chance to improve our economy, reduce the deficit by $890 billion to get border security you will never see in your lifetime, to regain our sovereignty. And if it fails and we are blamed for its failure our party is in trouble with Hispanics, not because we are conservative but because of the rhetoric and the way we've handled this issue. I want to get reattached to the Hispanic community, sell conservatism pass comprehensive immigration reform and grow this party. The party has to be bigger than Utah and South Carolina. The Hispanic community is very close to our values but we have driven them away over this issue. Let's fix the problem for the good of the country and the good of the party. This bill does that."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
June 23 2013 20:18 GMT
#5908
On June 23 2013 12:05 oneofthem wrote:
scientific models are replaced by better scientific models that are backwards compatible and account for past facts. this is different from a model being wrong, and it doesn't support skepticism about science in general.

basically it's not about proving current science wrong, distrusting it etc. it's about doing better science and overriding the current theories after you have developed better ones.

This is kinda like what I'm saying. It's unlikely that we're gonna have theories which pass peer review and obey the scientific method which are completely invalidated by new evidence. At best, we'll find some exception or revolutionary data that causes us to expand our theory to account for that evidence. All the results that were true beforehand wouldn't just stop being true.

Alchemy never really worked afaik. Most of what we've taken from it are scientific instruments. But I could be wrong. Plus, alchemy predated the scientific method/peer review anyhow.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 23 2013 21:54 GMT
#5909
Trade deal would benefit US more than EU, Ifo study finds

The US would gain more than the EU from a transatlantic trade deal, according to a study to be released on Monday.
Its report concludes that a transatlantic agreement would reduce trade flows within Europe and damage many developing countries.

Economists at the Munich-based Ifo institute, a German economic think-tank, found that a trade deal would lead to a 13.4 per cent increase in US income per head in real terms over the “long term” but only an average 5 per cent rise among the EU’s 27 member states. ...

Link

Full study, here.

I hope it goes through and that it's as comprehensive as possible. There's been push back from European countries that want a better deal (ex. France wants exemptions on "cultural products"). However, Europe currently needs an economic boost more than the US so now's the time to ink a deal.
corumjhaelen
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
France6884 Posts
June 23 2013 21:57 GMT
#5910
On June 24 2013 06:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
Trade deal would benefit US more than EU, Ifo study finds

The US would gain more than the EU from a transatlantic trade deal, according to a study to be released on Monday.
Its report concludes that a transatlantic agreement would reduce trade flows within Europe and damage many developing countries.

Economists at the Munich-based Ifo institute, a German economic think-tank, found that a trade deal would lead to a 13.4 per cent increase in US income per head in real terms over the “long term” but only an average 5 per cent rise among the EU’s 27 member states. ...

Link

Full study, here.

I hope it goes through and that it's as comprehensive as possible. There's been push back from European countries that want a better deal (ex. France wants exemptions on "cultural products"). However, Europe currently needs an economic boost more than the US so now's the time to ink a deal.

That's exactly why I highly dislike those negociations. We're probably going to get fucked over several important issues, in terms of sanitary norms mainly.
I think France focusing on cultural product is idiotic btw, our cultural policy is a disaster for complicated reasons, but that's really not the subject in an american policy thread...
‎numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
June 23 2013 22:28 GMT
#5911
On June 24 2013 06:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
Trade deal would benefit US more than EU, Ifo study finds

The US would gain more than the EU from a transatlantic trade deal, according to a study to be released on Monday.
Its report concludes that a transatlantic agreement would reduce trade flows within Europe and damage many developing countries.

Economists at the Munich-based Ifo institute, a German economic think-tank, found that a trade deal would lead to a 13.4 per cent increase in US income per head in real terms over the “long term” but only an average 5 per cent rise among the EU’s 27 member states. ...

Link

Full study, here.

I hope it goes through and that it's as comprehensive as possible. There's been push back from European countries that want a better deal (ex. France wants exemptions on "cultural products"). However, Europe currently needs an economic boost more than the US so now's the time to ink a deal.

Germans will probably push for it because they'll stand to gain from it since they can't sell their shit to the periphery any more. UK has the obvious benefit cited. France is really the only country that can stand in the way, and they'll likely be appeased in some minor way. The other countries that will "benefit" will do so in name only. Ireland will become an even greater tax/corporate haven, and they'll count the hollow firms as part of GDP. Greece will benefit from any deal, even if the deal promises to burn their country to the ground. I see this as a push mainly from the core trying to distance itself from the troubled periphery. They want to increase trade with economies outside their region since the trade imbalances inside the region are killing them.

Of course, there's always the wild card the the US House will shit all over it if Obama even smiles in the general direction of a trade agreement.
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
June 23 2013 22:53 GMT
#5912
Shill, David Gregory trying to incriminate Glenn Greenwald apparently. Shots Fired!


On NBC’s “Meet the Press” on Sunday, host David Gregory asked Glenn Greenwald, the journalist who broke the story of the NSA’s massive spying program, whether he should be charged with a crime if he had helped source Edward Snowden.

“To the extent that you have aided and abetted Snowden, even in his current movements, why shouldn’t you, Mr. Greenwald, be charged with a crime?” Gregory asked at the end of their conversation.

Greenwald replied that it was “pretty extraordinary that anybody who would call themselves a journalist would publicly muse about whether or not other journalists should be charged with felonies,” and that there was no evidence to support Gregory’s claim that he had “aided” Snowden.

Gregory responded by saying there are questions as to whether Greenwald is a journalist “with regard to what you’re doing,” but he didn’t say what those questions were. He added that he was merely posing a question, not “embracing anything.”

After the exchange, Greenwald tweeted: “Who needs the government to try to criminalize journalism when you have David Gregory to do it?” Others wondered whether Gregory would have asked the same of Neil Sheehan, the New York Times writer who published the Pentagon Papers in the early 1970s.

The Guardian journalist was on the show to discuss his source’s flight from Hong Kong to Moscow on Sunday morning.


Source
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
June 23 2013 23:03 GMT
#5913
Wow, that is an extraordinary question and asked very bluntly.

coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-23 23:16:45
June 23 2013 23:14 GMT
#5914
On June 24 2013 05:18 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2013 12:05 oneofthem wrote:
scientific models are replaced by better scientific models that are backwards compatible and account for past facts. this is different from a model being wrong, and it doesn't support skepticism about science in general.

basically it's not about proving current science wrong, distrusting it etc. it's about doing better science and overriding the current theories after you have developed better ones.

This is kinda like what I'm saying. It's unlikely that we're gonna have theories which pass peer review and obey the scientific method which are completely invalidated by new evidence. At best, we'll find some exception or revolutionary data that causes us to expand our theory to account for that evidence. All the results that were true beforehand wouldn't just stop being true.

Alchemy never really worked afaik. Most of what we've taken from it are scientific instruments. But I could be wrong. Plus, alchemy predated the scientific method/peer review anyhow.

Nah, I'll give you a modern example: IPS cells, for which Gurdon and Yamanaka won the Nobel Prize in 2012. The way we think about cell development is completely different after their discoveries that mature cells can be reprogrammed back into stem cells. Everyone used to think that cells that had been specialized were confined to that state forever. Gurdon proved it happens in nature and Yamanaka did the proof of concept that mature cells could be turned back into stem cells and then programmed into another different kind of cell (it's proof of concept because it only works for about 1 in every 100,000 cells). It's very exciting, which is why Yamanaka won the Nobel Prize even though his discovery was only in 2006.

If you're only looking at the tightly held, controversial issues of science, then no, you probably won't live to see one side give up on the issue. But there are new frontiers and the way we approach many problems has already radically changed over your life.
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
June 23 2013 23:48 GMT
#5915
You know all of those debates surrounding ToS/EULA contracts and how they wouldn't hold up in court? Might want to rethink that, especially if Justice Scalia ever has anything to say about it. :D


The Supreme Court sided with big corporations Thursday when it ruled 5-3 that companies can write contracts that force small businesses to challenge monopolistic practices on an unaffordable individual arbitration basis rather than through class-action lawsuits, effectively killing the ability of small businesses to defend themselves in court against larger predatory ones.

In the case, called American Express v. Italian Colors Restaurant, the eatery and a group of other small businesses alleging antitrust violations by the credit card giant banded together in a class-action suit to make their cause valuable enough to attract a lawyer. They alleged that American Express “used its monopoly power to force them to accept its bank-issued knock-off credit cards as a condition of taking regular, more elite American Express cards—and then [charged] them 30 percent higher fees for the privilege,” reports Stephanie Mencimer in Mother Jones.

In response, American Express referred to the small print in its contract with the businesses, which blocked the companies from suing both individually and together. The credit card company insisted each business had to submit its claim to a private arbitrator employed by American Express.

The merchants figured that the process would cost each of them $1 million to collect a maximum possible amount of $38,000. The small businesses pressed forward with their case and prevailed in the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which ruled that the arbitration clause referred to by American Express “was unconscionable because it prevented the plaintiffs from having their claims heard in any forum,” Mencimer writes.

However, the Supreme Court, whose conservative majority is ever the protector of big business, “has made class action litigation much harder to bring, mostly notably in 2011 when it struck down a huge sex discrimination case brought by 1.5 million women working at Walmart,” Mencimer continues.

An amicus brief submitted in the case on behalf of the small businesses, by lawyers for AARP, Public Justice, and the American Association for Justice warned that if the court sided with American Express, “statutes intended by Congress to protect weaker parties against stronger parties will essentially be gutted. Small businesses might as well move to a different country where they no longer enjoy the protection of the antitrust laws. At the whim of an employer, workers could be required to prospectively waive their Title VII [anti-discrimination] rights. Consumer protection laws such as the Truth in Lending Act could be silently, but inescapably, repealed by corporations with the stroke of a pen.”

The decision could have bad consequences for all types of institutions and individuals. Mencimer writes: “[I]f the court ruled that Amex could use an arbitration clause in a contract with a much less powerful party to escape punishment under” an existing antitrust act, “there’s no reason why a big company couldn’t create contracts that prevent people from filing sex discrimination, consumer fraud, or other similar claims in any venue. Laws that Congress passed to protect the public could simply be voided through artfully written arbitration clauses that create expensive hurdles to pressing a claim.”

Justice Antonin Scalia, who wrote the majority opinion in the case, wasn’t impressed. He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties. He agreed that “if a big company breaks the law and screws you, but you signed a contract with an arbitration clause giving away your right to sue or bring class action, you don’t have a case, even if federal law says you do.”

Justice Clarence Thomas concurred. He said Italian Colors voluntarily entered into its agreement with American Express. But, as Mencimer points out, “anyone who’s ever tried to open a bank account knows it’s virtually impossible to engage in commerce these days without being forced to sign a contract in which you forgo your right to sue the company if it rips you off.”

Justice Elena Kagan gets this point. In her biting dissent aimed squarely at Scalia, she called the majority opinion a “betrayal of our precedents and of federal statutes like antitrust laws.” She observed that the court would never uphold an arbitration agreement that explicitly banned merchants from bringing an antitrust claim, yet that’s effectively what the Amex contract does by compelling merchants to give up the option of class actions in court. She noted that by ignoring several precedents, the majority is providing companies “every incentive to draft their agreements to extract backdoor waivers of statutory rights.” That is, they will use contracts to immunize themselves from laws they don’t like.

Kagan was blunt: “If the arbitration clause is enforceable, Amex has insulated itself from antitrust liability—even if it has in fact violated the law. The monopolist gets to use its monopoly power to insist on a contract effectively depriving its victims of all legal recourse. And here is the nutshell version of today’s opinion, admirably flaunted rather than camouflaged: Too darn bad.”


Source
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
June 23 2013 23:51 GMT
#5916
Kagan is such a badass.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21795 Posts
June 24 2013 00:12 GMT
#5917
ah America .....

He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-24 00:14:14
June 24 2013 00:12 GMT
#5918
An interesting case.

For the record, the vote was 5-3. Scalia (wrote), Roberts, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito supported it. Kagan wrote the dissent, joined by Ginsburg and Breyer. Sotomayor recused herself because she was on the Second Circuit court that decided the case.

tl;dr If you sign an arbitration agreement that waives your right to class arbitration, then you waive your right to class arbitration. You can't undo it because the legal costs of individual arbitration are expensive or inconvenient. If you want to undo it, you need to prove the terms are so unfair that they can't be supported by state arbitration laws or find a statute that guarantees your right to class arbitration. Or get Congress to change the Federal Arbitration Act, which has been interpreted to strictly enforce terms of arbitration agreements.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
June 24 2013 00:32 GMT
#5919
They need to change the Federal Arbitration Act. Arbitration should have never been allowed to be a substitute for legal action, especially as a preemptive clause in a mandatory contractual agreement.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 24 2013 00:40 GMT
#5920
On June 24 2013 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:
ah America .....

Show nested quote +
He said the law is not obligated to make court action affordable to all parties
. Except you know the whole system works on the basis that anyone should be able to sue if there is legitimate reason.

Show nested quote +
even if federal law says you do
. So what is the point of laws if we can arbitrary break them because of contract.

Why cant a doctor kill me if i sign a paper yet a company can do anything it wants so long as i sign.

How the hell do people like this get appointed to the supreme court when this very decision undermines everything that law stands for.

Well, the contract doesn't allow AmEx to violate the law. It just prescribes the venue for addressing the violation (arbitration rather than the courts).

The whole point of arbitration is that it's cheaper than the courts.
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