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On February 20 2016 09:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:14 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:06 IgnE wrote:On February 20 2016 08:41 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:35 Gorsameth wrote:On February 20 2016 08:32 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:12 OuchyDathurts wrote: There is a market for a phone that no government can get into. Of course their is. But the US government doesn't have to allow them to be made or sold to anyone in the world, including other world governments. There is no reason for the US to be super pumped about Apple selling these phones over seas. If Apple intentionally doesn't make a key to the the encryption because they don't want to be forced to provide it via court order, the government could they are not longer allowed to sell it. And if 3rd party apps are available on the Iphone provided it, the government could regulate the store too. The CS tech sector has been allowed to innovate on the internet and cell phone networks with very little regulation by the government and it has been good for everyone involved. But there are limits. That is why I am conflicted about what Apple is doing by saying they won't want to play ball any more. Because the US government could just say "fine, now we are going to regulate what software you can put on your products." And public opinion is going to slap them in their face when they try to take people's Iphones away from them. The only ones at fault here are the intelligence agencies who pissed the well so bad that no one trusts them anymore to actually act responsibly if they are given access. Pretty sure they would regulate the encryption, not the phone. Its not like they can't put new encryption on the next OS. I am not pro regulation, but that is what is going to happen if there is no other way for law enforcement to gain access to the phone. Right now, every single iphone that has evidence for a criminal investigation is potentially locked away forever. No matter what judicial process or order they obtain, not matter the crime, the phone cannot be opened if its locked. If there is no solution, the government will create one. Look up, for example, the government's attempts decades ago to regulate Pretty Good Privacy, the open source encryption. There is no way they can control the encryption or prevent key-less encryption from existing. But they can regulate cellphones in the US. And other governments can too. What is going to happen when China wants access a phone and Apple says no and we turn off the auto delete either? Are they going to let Apple sell this encryption to anyone in China? This is the kind of fire Apple is playing with and why the tech industry isn't super rallying behind them. If no government can open it, why would any government allow it to be sold to their citizens? Because if the government told Apple they can't sell me an encrypted phone I would install the encryption myself. The regulation is pointless. Encryption is not hard enough that the government is able to regulate. As several people have already told you in this thread it would turn out worse than prohibition. They can allow for encrypted phones, just require Apple to keep a key like they used to. The government doesn't' care if you root your phone and install encryption. You are just one person, not all of Iphone owners nation wide.
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On February 20 2016 09:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On February 20 2016 09:14 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:06 IgnE wrote:On February 20 2016 08:41 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:35 Gorsameth wrote:On February 20 2016 08:32 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:12 OuchyDathurts wrote: There is a market for a phone that no government can get into. Of course their is. But the US government doesn't have to allow them to be made or sold to anyone in the world, including other world governments. There is no reason for the US to be super pumped about Apple selling these phones over seas. If Apple intentionally doesn't make a key to the the encryption because they don't want to be forced to provide it via court order, the government could they are not longer allowed to sell it. And if 3rd party apps are available on the Iphone provided it, the government could regulate the store too. The CS tech sector has been allowed to innovate on the internet and cell phone networks with very little regulation by the government and it has been good for everyone involved. But there are limits. That is why I am conflicted about what Apple is doing by saying they won't want to play ball any more. Because the US government could just say "fine, now we are going to regulate what software you can put on your products." And public opinion is going to slap them in their face when they try to take people's Iphones away from them. The only ones at fault here are the intelligence agencies who pissed the well so bad that no one trusts them anymore to actually act responsibly if they are given access. Pretty sure they would regulate the encryption, not the phone. Its not like they can't put new encryption on the next OS. I am not pro regulation, but that is what is going to happen if there is no other way for law enforcement to gain access to the phone. Right now, every single iphone that has evidence for a criminal investigation is potentially locked away forever. No matter what judicial process or order they obtain, not matter the crime, the phone cannot be opened if its locked. If there is no solution, the government will create one. Look up, for example, the government's attempts decades ago to regulate Pretty Good Privacy, the open source encryption. There is no way they can control the encryption or prevent key-less encryption from existing. But they can regulate cellphones in the US. And other governments can too. What is going to happen when China wants access a phone and Apple says no and we turn off the auto delete either? Are they going to let Apple sell this encryption to anyone in China? This is the kind of fire Apple is playing with and why the tech industry isn't super rallying behind them. If no government can open it, why would any government allow it to be sold to their citizens? Because if the government told Apple they can't sell me an encrypted phone I would install the encryption myself. The regulation is pointless. Encryption is not hard enough that the government is able to regulate. As several people have already told you in this thread it would turn out worse than prohibition. They can allow for encrypted phones, just require Apple to keep a key like they used to. The government doesn't' care if you root your phone and install encryption. You are just one person, not all of Iphone owners nation wide.
How would Apple have a key to my encryption? I think you're confused how encryption works.
On February 20 2016 09:13 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Not to be a statist, but I think the government should be able to search wherever it can get a warrant. We have police and the FBI because there really are criminals who do bad things out there. If the government has a warrant, then I want them to be able to search in the box. I am not convinced that having unsearchable boxes is a good idea. I get how it is nice to have something that can never be opened. But I think our collective interest in warranted searches outweights the desire to have something that can never be searched.
// that the "box" here is a phone and it is locked with code doesn't matter, the iPhone might as well be a safety deposit box
These boxes already exist. Conversations are privileged when they happen between say a doctor and patient or an attorney and a client.
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You're never taking away peoples encryption. There is also zero evidence with this terrorist case that even if Apple made the key to unlock this phone that they didn't have some third party encryption installed and this is all for nothing anyway.
This is a new frontier and the government might need some tools to handle this new frontier. But this isn't how they're going to get that help. They're going to need to work with silicon valley to come up with smart, non invasive, non exploitable or abusable by the government tools, working together. They're also going to have to clean up their act and undo a lot of the shit they've overstepped their bounds on to this point to show they should be trusted. If those two things don't happen they're going to get shut out in the cold.
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On February 20 2016 09:25 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:21 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On February 20 2016 09:14 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:06 IgnE wrote:On February 20 2016 08:41 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:35 Gorsameth wrote:On February 20 2016 08:32 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:12 OuchyDathurts wrote: There is a market for a phone that no government can get into. Of course their is. But the US government doesn't have to allow them to be made or sold to anyone in the world, including other world governments. There is no reason for the US to be super pumped about Apple selling these phones over seas. If Apple intentionally doesn't make a key to the the encryption because they don't want to be forced to provide it via court order, the government could they are not longer allowed to sell it. And if 3rd party apps are available on the Iphone provided it, the government could regulate the store too. The CS tech sector has been allowed to innovate on the internet and cell phone networks with very little regulation by the government and it has been good for everyone involved. But there are limits. That is why I am conflicted about what Apple is doing by saying they won't want to play ball any more. Because the US government could just say "fine, now we are going to regulate what software you can put on your products." And public opinion is going to slap them in their face when they try to take people's Iphones away from them. The only ones at fault here are the intelligence agencies who pissed the well so bad that no one trusts them anymore to actually act responsibly if they are given access. Pretty sure they would regulate the encryption, not the phone. Its not like they can't put new encryption on the next OS. I am not pro regulation, but that is what is going to happen if there is no other way for law enforcement to gain access to the phone. Right now, every single iphone that has evidence for a criminal investigation is potentially locked away forever. No matter what judicial process or order they obtain, not matter the crime, the phone cannot be opened if its locked. If there is no solution, the government will create one. Look up, for example, the government's attempts decades ago to regulate Pretty Good Privacy, the open source encryption. There is no way they can control the encryption or prevent key-less encryption from existing. But they can regulate cellphones in the US. And other governments can too. What is going to happen when China wants access a phone and Apple says no and we turn off the auto delete either? Are they going to let Apple sell this encryption to anyone in China? This is the kind of fire Apple is playing with and why the tech industry isn't super rallying behind them. If no government can open it, why would any government allow it to be sold to their citizens? Because if the government told Apple they can't sell me an encrypted phone I would install the encryption myself. The regulation is pointless. Encryption is not hard enough that the government is able to regulate. As several people have already told you in this thread it would turn out worse than prohibition. They can allow for encrypted phones, just require Apple to keep a key like they used to. The government doesn't' care if you root your phone and install encryption. You are just one person, not all of Iphone owners nation wide. How would Apple have a key to my encryption? I think you're confused how encryption works. Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:13 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Not to be a statist, but I think the government should be able to search wherever it can get a warrant. We have police and the FBI because there really are criminals who do bad things out there. If the government has a warrant, then I want them to be able to search in the box. I am not convinced that having unsearchable boxes is a good idea. I get how it is nice to have something that can never be opened. But I think our collective interest in warranted searches outweights the desire to have something that can never be searched.
// that the "box" here is a phone and it is locked with code doesn't matter, the iPhone might as well be a safety deposit box These boxes already exist. Conversations are privileged when they happen between say a doctor and patient or an attorney and a client. They used to open phones for the FBI before that were encrypted. They stopped when they redesigned the way it worked around 2014 where they no longer could do it. They appear to be the only company that does this to their phones. And it creates a problem when the FBI has a search warrant, but no one can open the phone, or turn off the software that will cause it to auto delete.
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On February 20 2016 09:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:03 Acrofales wrote:On February 20 2016 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Sanders Accepts Clinton’s Challenge on Wall Street Speeches FEBRUARY 19, 2016
ELKO, Nev. – U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders’ campaign on Friday urged Hillary Clinton to keep her word and release the transcripts of speeches she gave to Wall Street firms “when everybody else does.”
“Sen. Sanders accepts Clinton’s challenge. He will release all of the transcripts of all of his Wall Street speeches. That’s easy. The fact is, there weren’t any. Bernie gave no speeches to Wall Street firms. He wasn’t paid anything while Secretary Clinton made millions, including $675,000 for three paid speeches to Goldman Sachs,” said Sanders’ spokesman Michael Briggs.
“So now we hope Secretary Clinton keeps her word and releases the transcripts of her speeches. We hope she agrees that the American people deserve to know what she told Wall Street behind closed doors,” Briggs added.
Clinton was paid $21.7 million in fees for speeches to groups including Wall Street firms, big corporations and trade associations for 92 talks she delivered from 2013 through last April in the run-up to formally launching her second presidential bid. SourceI suspect, like with her superPAC, she means the Republicans she might not even get to face (for the 2nd time). It's obvious she's hiding them, and that should concern any voter. Why? To clarify: I don't doubt that she praised the bankers and told them they were doing a great job yaddayaddayadda. It'll look terrible when spun through a political machine and ripped out of context. I'm just not sure why I should care that she is keeping that secret. I think the real problem is it will be obvious they weren't paying for the speech. It takes a special level of disbelief to think that Hillary and her campaign aren't essentially run by lobbyist and wall st donors. If lobbyist and wall st is who you want in charge of our government then I suppose it wouldn't be a problem for someone.
What? You have any evidence that President Hillary would repeal Dodd-Frank? Some investment bankers are actually Democrats and do donate. Note that investment bankers nearly universally live in coastal metropolises (Democrat country). Obama got twice what McCain did from Wall Street in 2008, and after President Obama signed Dodd-Frank; Romney got twice what President Obama did in 2012.
What would she think of a transaction tax? Do you think she wouldn't have a DOJ with comparable ability to extract fines from Wall Street like Obama/Holder/Lynch? If you think she is going to work to repeal the capital gains tax, or attempt to bring back deregulation, then you need to pony up some evidence. That she has received donations from Democrats who work in finance is not enough to show she won't do what she says she will. All the available evidence suggests Hillary will be a continuation of President Obama's half-loaf regulation (Dodd-Frank) and fine oriented prosecution of Wall Street (Holder/Lynch).
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/wall-street/
If you want a real Wall Street campaign, check out Rubio or Bush3. Rubio has never broken15% anywhere, anytime. But because he has promised to repeal the capital gains tax various billionaires have made sure their super PACs keep him afloat. Bush3 is living proof that enough rich financiers can keep anyone in an election. Bush3 legit has <5% of the Republican voter base at his back, but his Dad's connections keep the money coming.
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On February 20 2016 09:25 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:21 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On February 20 2016 09:14 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:06 IgnE wrote:On February 20 2016 08:41 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:35 Gorsameth wrote:On February 20 2016 08:32 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:12 OuchyDathurts wrote: There is a market for a phone that no government can get into. Of course their is. But the US government doesn't have to allow them to be made or sold to anyone in the world, including other world governments. There is no reason for the US to be super pumped about Apple selling these phones over seas. If Apple intentionally doesn't make a key to the the encryption because they don't want to be forced to provide it via court order, the government could they are not longer allowed to sell it. And if 3rd party apps are available on the Iphone provided it, the government could regulate the store too. The CS tech sector has been allowed to innovate on the internet and cell phone networks with very little regulation by the government and it has been good for everyone involved. But there are limits. That is why I am conflicted about what Apple is doing by saying they won't want to play ball any more. Because the US government could just say "fine, now we are going to regulate what software you can put on your products." And public opinion is going to slap them in their face when they try to take people's Iphones away from them. The only ones at fault here are the intelligence agencies who pissed the well so bad that no one trusts them anymore to actually act responsibly if they are given access. Pretty sure they would regulate the encryption, not the phone. Its not like they can't put new encryption on the next OS. I am not pro regulation, but that is what is going to happen if there is no other way for law enforcement to gain access to the phone. Right now, every single iphone that has evidence for a criminal investigation is potentially locked away forever. No matter what judicial process or order they obtain, not matter the crime, the phone cannot be opened if its locked. If there is no solution, the government will create one. Look up, for example, the government's attempts decades ago to regulate Pretty Good Privacy, the open source encryption. There is no way they can control the encryption or prevent key-less encryption from existing. But they can regulate cellphones in the US. And other governments can too. What is going to happen when China wants access a phone and Apple says no and we turn off the auto delete either? Are they going to let Apple sell this encryption to anyone in China? This is the kind of fire Apple is playing with and why the tech industry isn't super rallying behind them. If no government can open it, why would any government allow it to be sold to their citizens? Because if the government told Apple they can't sell me an encrypted phone I would install the encryption myself. The regulation is pointless. Encryption is not hard enough that the government is able to regulate. As several people have already told you in this thread it would turn out worse than prohibition. They can allow for encrypted phones, just require Apple to keep a key like they used to. The government doesn't' care if you root your phone and install encryption. You are just one person, not all of Iphone owners nation wide. How would Apple have a key to my encryption? I think you're confused how encryption works. Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:13 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Not to be a statist, but I think the government should be able to search wherever it can get a warrant. We have police and the FBI because there really are criminals who do bad things out there. If the government has a warrant, then I want them to be able to search in the box. I am not convinced that having unsearchable boxes is a good idea. I get how it is nice to have something that can never be opened. But I think our collective interest in warranted searches outweights the desire to have something that can never be searched.
// that the "box" here is a phone and it is locked with code doesn't matter, the iPhone might as well be a safety deposit box These boxes already exist. Conversations are privileged when they happen between say a doctor and patient or an attorney and a client.
Is there anything about iPhones that suggests you have a right to privacy so sacrosanct that we will endow with a privilege to block it from becoming evidence? Marital privilege, attorney-client privilege, doctor-patient privilege are legit privileges. I am not seeing anything about iPhones that distinguish them from safety deposit boxes in terms of having a right to be excluded from lawful search.
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On February 20 2016 09:25 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:21 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On February 20 2016 09:14 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:06 IgnE wrote:On February 20 2016 08:41 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:35 Gorsameth wrote:On February 20 2016 08:32 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:12 OuchyDathurts wrote: There is a market for a phone that no government can get into. Of course their is. But the US government doesn't have to allow them to be made or sold to anyone in the world, including other world governments. There is no reason for the US to be super pumped about Apple selling these phones over seas. If Apple intentionally doesn't make a key to the the encryption because they don't want to be forced to provide it via court order, the government could they are not longer allowed to sell it. And if 3rd party apps are available on the Iphone provided it, the government could regulate the store too. The CS tech sector has been allowed to innovate on the internet and cell phone networks with very little regulation by the government and it has been good for everyone involved. But there are limits. That is why I am conflicted about what Apple is doing by saying they won't want to play ball any more. Because the US government could just say "fine, now we are going to regulate what software you can put on your products." And public opinion is going to slap them in their face when they try to take people's Iphones away from them. The only ones at fault here are the intelligence agencies who pissed the well so bad that no one trusts them anymore to actually act responsibly if they are given access. Pretty sure they would regulate the encryption, not the phone. Its not like they can't put new encryption on the next OS. I am not pro regulation, but that is what is going to happen if there is no other way for law enforcement to gain access to the phone. Right now, every single iphone that has evidence for a criminal investigation is potentially locked away forever. No matter what judicial process or order they obtain, not matter the crime, the phone cannot be opened if its locked. If there is no solution, the government will create one. Look up, for example, the government's attempts decades ago to regulate Pretty Good Privacy, the open source encryption. There is no way they can control the encryption or prevent key-less encryption from existing. But they can regulate cellphones in the US. And other governments can too. What is going to happen when China wants access a phone and Apple says no and we turn off the auto delete either? Are they going to let Apple sell this encryption to anyone in China? This is the kind of fire Apple is playing with and why the tech industry isn't super rallying behind them. If no government can open it, why would any government allow it to be sold to their citizens? Because if the government told Apple they can't sell me an encrypted phone I would install the encryption myself. The regulation is pointless. Encryption is not hard enough that the government is able to regulate. As several people have already told you in this thread it would turn out worse than prohibition. They can allow for encrypted phones, just require Apple to keep a key like they used to. The government doesn't' care if you root your phone and install encryption. You are just one person, not all of Iphone owners nation wide. How would Apple have a key to my encryption? I think you're confused how encryption works. Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:13 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Not to be a statist, but I think the government should be able to search wherever it can get a warrant. We have police and the FBI because there really are criminals who do bad things out there. If the government has a warrant, then I want them to be able to search in the box. I am not convinced that having unsearchable boxes is a good idea. I get how it is nice to have something that can never be opened. But I think our collective interest in warranted searches outweights the desire to have something that can never be searched.
// that the "box" here is a phone and it is locked with code doesn't matter, the iPhone might as well be a safety deposit box These boxes already exist. Conversations are privileged when they happen between say a doctor and patient or an attorney and a client. Privileges are recognized between individuals, not among inanimate objects, though your point is well taken. The privacy interests surrounding a piece of property used in furtherance of a crime are not exactly clear cut when the abrogation of that privacy arguably infringes on that of millions of third-parties.
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On February 20 2016 08:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 08:35 Gorsameth wrote:On February 20 2016 08:32 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:12 OuchyDathurts wrote: There is a market for a phone that no government can get into. Of course their is. But the US government doesn't have to allow them to be made or sold to anyone in the world, including other world governments. There is no reason for the US to be super pumped about Apple selling these phones over seas. If Apple intentionally doesn't make a key to the the encryption because they don't want to be forced to provide it via court order, the government could they are not longer allowed to sell it. And if 3rd party apps are available on the Iphone provided it, the government could regulate the store too. The CS tech sector has been allowed to innovate on the internet and cell phone networks with very little regulation by the government and it has been good for everyone involved. But there are limits. That is why I am conflicted about what Apple is doing by saying they won't want to play ball any more. Because the US government could just say "fine, now we are going to regulate what software you can put on your products." And public opinion is going to slap them in their face when they try to take people's Iphones away from them. The only ones at fault here are the intelligence agencies who pissed the well so bad that no one trusts them anymore to actually act responsibly if they are given access. Pretty sure they would regulate the encryption, not the phone. Its not like they can't put new encryption on the next OS. I am not pro regulation, but that is what is going to happen if there is no other way for law enforcement to gain access to the phone. Right now, every single iphone that has evidence for a criminal investigation is potentially locked away forever. No matter what judicial process or order they obtain, not matter the crime, the phone cannot be opened if its locked. If there is no solution, the government will create one. As was said repeatedly yesterday, encryption is far more ubiquitous than "keeping the government out".
A phone without encryption will not hold personal data. It will not access the internet. It will not process any payments of any kind.
Sure, phones like that exist. Two decades ago. And while it's perfectly within the realm of the government to legislate technology decades backward, the question remains if such regulations would be worth the paper they're written on.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
this phone doesnt have the secure enclave so all this resignation about apple can't do it is just not true. i suggest taking a more balanced view
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On February 20 2016 09:34 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:25 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On February 20 2016 09:21 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On February 20 2016 09:14 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:06 IgnE wrote:On February 20 2016 08:41 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:35 Gorsameth wrote:On February 20 2016 08:32 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:12 OuchyDathurts wrote: There is a market for a phone that no government can get into. Of course their is. But the US government doesn't have to allow them to be made or sold to anyone in the world, including other world governments. There is no reason for the US to be super pumped about Apple selling these phones over seas. If Apple intentionally doesn't make a key to the the encryption because they don't want to be forced to provide it via court order, the government could they are not longer allowed to sell it. And if 3rd party apps are available on the Iphone provided it, the government could regulate the store too. The CS tech sector has been allowed to innovate on the internet and cell phone networks with very little regulation by the government and it has been good for everyone involved. But there are limits. That is why I am conflicted about what Apple is doing by saying they won't want to play ball any more. Because the US government could just say "fine, now we are going to regulate what software you can put on your products." And public opinion is going to slap them in their face when they try to take people's Iphones away from them. The only ones at fault here are the intelligence agencies who pissed the well so bad that no one trusts them anymore to actually act responsibly if they are given access. Pretty sure they would regulate the encryption, not the phone. Its not like they can't put new encryption on the next OS. I am not pro regulation, but that is what is going to happen if there is no other way for law enforcement to gain access to the phone. Right now, every single iphone that has evidence for a criminal investigation is potentially locked away forever. No matter what judicial process or order they obtain, not matter the crime, the phone cannot be opened if its locked. If there is no solution, the government will create one. Look up, for example, the government's attempts decades ago to regulate Pretty Good Privacy, the open source encryption. There is no way they can control the encryption or prevent key-less encryption from existing. But they can regulate cellphones in the US. And other governments can too. What is going to happen when China wants access a phone and Apple says no and we turn off the auto delete either? Are they going to let Apple sell this encryption to anyone in China? This is the kind of fire Apple is playing with and why the tech industry isn't super rallying behind them. If no government can open it, why would any government allow it to be sold to their citizens? Because if the government told Apple they can't sell me an encrypted phone I would install the encryption myself. The regulation is pointless. Encryption is not hard enough that the government is able to regulate. As several people have already told you in this thread it would turn out worse than prohibition. They can allow for encrypted phones, just require Apple to keep a key like they used to. The government doesn't' care if you root your phone and install encryption. You are just one person, not all of Iphone owners nation wide. How would Apple have a key to my encryption? I think you're confused how encryption works. On February 20 2016 09:13 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Not to be a statist, but I think the government should be able to search wherever it can get a warrant. We have police and the FBI because there really are criminals who do bad things out there. If the government has a warrant, then I want them to be able to search in the box. I am not convinced that having unsearchable boxes is a good idea. I get how it is nice to have something that can never be opened. But I think our collective interest in warranted searches outweights the desire to have something that can never be searched.
// that the "box" here is a phone and it is locked with code doesn't matter, the iPhone might as well be a safety deposit box These boxes already exist. Conversations are privileged when they happen between say a doctor and patient or an attorney and a client. Is there anything about iPhones that suggests you have a right to privacy so sacrosanct that we will endow with a privilege to block it from becoming evidence? Marital privilege, attorney-client privilege, doctor-patient privilege are legit privileges. I am not seeing anything about iPhones that distinguish them from safety deposit boxes in terms of having a right to be excluded from lawful search.
My only intention was to point out that these boxes do in fact exist. There are things that cannot be searched. I'd also suggest that some data on that phone is protected by these privileges, but extending it to the entire phone is stretching it.
On February 20 2016 09:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 09:25 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On February 20 2016 09:21 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On February 20 2016 09:14 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 09:06 IgnE wrote:On February 20 2016 08:41 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:35 Gorsameth wrote:On February 20 2016 08:32 Plansix wrote:On February 20 2016 08:12 OuchyDathurts wrote: There is a market for a phone that no government can get into. Of course their is. But the US government doesn't have to allow them to be made or sold to anyone in the world, including other world governments. There is no reason for the US to be super pumped about Apple selling these phones over seas. If Apple intentionally doesn't make a key to the the encryption because they don't want to be forced to provide it via court order, the government could they are not longer allowed to sell it. And if 3rd party apps are available on the Iphone provided it, the government could regulate the store too. The CS tech sector has been allowed to innovate on the internet and cell phone networks with very little regulation by the government and it has been good for everyone involved. But there are limits. That is why I am conflicted about what Apple is doing by saying they won't want to play ball any more. Because the US government could just say "fine, now we are going to regulate what software you can put on your products." And public opinion is going to slap them in their face when they try to take people's Iphones away from them. The only ones at fault here are the intelligence agencies who pissed the well so bad that no one trusts them anymore to actually act responsibly if they are given access. Pretty sure they would regulate the encryption, not the phone. Its not like they can't put new encryption on the next OS. I am not pro regulation, but that is what is going to happen if there is no other way for law enforcement to gain access to the phone. Right now, every single iphone that has evidence for a criminal investigation is potentially locked away forever. No matter what judicial process or order they obtain, not matter the crime, the phone cannot be opened if its locked. If there is no solution, the government will create one. Look up, for example, the government's attempts decades ago to regulate Pretty Good Privacy, the open source encryption. There is no way they can control the encryption or prevent key-less encryption from existing. But they can regulate cellphones in the US. And other governments can too. What is going to happen when China wants access a phone and Apple says no and we turn off the auto delete either? Are they going to let Apple sell this encryption to anyone in China? This is the kind of fire Apple is playing with and why the tech industry isn't super rallying behind them. If no government can open it, why would any government allow it to be sold to their citizens? Because if the government told Apple they can't sell me an encrypted phone I would install the encryption myself. The regulation is pointless. Encryption is not hard enough that the government is able to regulate. As several people have already told you in this thread it would turn out worse than prohibition. They can allow for encrypted phones, just require Apple to keep a key like they used to. The government doesn't' care if you root your phone and install encryption. You are just one person, not all of Iphone owners nation wide. How would Apple have a key to my encryption? I think you're confused how encryption works. On February 20 2016 09:13 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Not to be a statist, but I think the government should be able to search wherever it can get a warrant. We have police and the FBI because there really are criminals who do bad things out there. If the government has a warrant, then I want them to be able to search in the box. I am not convinced that having unsearchable boxes is a good idea. I get how it is nice to have something that can never be opened. But I think our collective interest in warranted searches outweights the desire to have something that can never be searched.
// that the "box" here is a phone and it is locked with code doesn't matter, the iPhone might as well be a safety deposit box These boxes already exist. Conversations are privileged when they happen between say a doctor and patient or an attorney and a client. They used to open phones for the FBI before that were encrypted. They stopped when they redesigned the way it worked around 2014 where they no longer could do it. They appear to be the only company that does this to their phones. And it creates a problem when the FBI has a search warrant, but no one can open the phone, or turn off the software that will cause it to auto delete.
In this hypothetical scenario, I'd be adding the encryption that the FBI cannot access to my phone.
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Hillary is a New York Democrat. You need to appreciate that rich people will be heavily involved in politics. However, just because they're rich doesn't mean they're going to demand Hillary go full Republican flat tax deregulation etc. Hillary will be "moderate" as she keeps describing herself, but that's not a bad thing. It means stewarding over a stable economy. That's a virtue in itself.
Bloomberg once said, referring to wealthy people in NYC, "They are the ones who pay a lot of the taxes. They are the ones who spend a lot money in the stores and the restaurants and create a big chunk of our economy,” Bloomberg said. “And we take the tax revenues from those people to help people throughout the entire rest of the spectrum."
So Hillary, while she has many problems, is not comparable to Republicans. Let's remember that or we risk a truly terrible outcome for this election, a Republican president.
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Consider if there was an app on the phone that could be installed by anyone and deleted data after X number of attempts.
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Someone like Plansix is essentially arguing for completely regulated closed-source computer-phones. Apple is actually the worst company to be bullied like this because their architectures are the most closed. If this were about a more open phone architecture that allowed third party software to be installed, including software written by anonymous third parties, the ridiculousness would be much more apparent.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
bloomberg's other virtue is that he is attuned to urban problems particularly housing cost. urban issues are systematically underrepresented but is simply far more important to future of economy as well as majority of the population compared to bullshit social issues in some of these contested states.
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On February 20 2016 10:06 oneofthem wrote: bloomberg's other virtue is that he is attuned to urban problems particularly housing cost. urban issues are systematically underrepresented but is simply far more important to future of economy as well as majority of the population compared to bullshit social issues in some of these contested states.
Hasn't NYC one of the highest poverty rates in the US while Bloomberg is busy building giant luxury apartments everywhere?
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Why cant the government just give the phone to apple and apple grabs the data off this one phone? whos owners are dead and they killed 13 people?
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Making farmers markets more accessible to Americans in food deserts can boost the number of low-income customers who regularly shop there, and may even offer more promise for improving diets than bringing in traditional grocers. That's according to researchers who looked at what happened when the farmers market in Flint, Mich. — much of which qualifies as a food desert — moved downtown.
Availability of nutritious foods is of particular relevance in Flint, where the city's water system is now infamously contaminated with lead and other toxins. Public health officials there are spreading the word that consuming fruits and vegetables and other nutritious foods high in calcium, iron and Vitamin C can help reduce lead absorption. (Editor's note: We'll have more on those efforts next week.)
Rick Sadler, a public health professor at the Flint campus of Michigan State University, first interviewed shoppers at the Flint Farmers' Market in 2011, seeking to understand the demographics of its customers. Three years later, the market made a controversial move from an industrial area north of the city core — inaccessible to public transit and pedestrians — to a central downtown location across from the bus station. That prompted Sadler to return in 2015, to see if the customer demographics had shifted. They had: At the new location, the market was seeing far more shoppers from the city's poorer neighborhoods.
As Sadler reports in a new study in the journal Applied Geography, in 2011, about 10 percent of the shoppers came from the city's most distressed neighborhoods, but by 2015 it was up to 20 percent. Similarly, less than 1 percent of farmers market patrons had taken the bus there in 2011, but 6 percent had after the move. And while that might not sound like much to New Yorkers, it's significant in Flint, says Sadler, who has also been documenting the city's water crisis. "Flint's nickname is 'Vehicle City'; most people here do drive," he tells us.
An increasing number of shoppers also used the market for general groceries, with 20 percent reporting that as a reason for coming to the market in 2015, compared with 14 percent in 2011. That was particularly marked, says Sadler, among residents who said they had difficulty accessing food: 27 percent of those shoppers visited the market for general groceries, compared with 13 percent of those reporting no difficulty accessing food, he told us.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On February 20 2016 10:08 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 10:06 oneofthem wrote: bloomberg's other virtue is that he is attuned to urban problems particularly housing cost. urban issues are systematically underrepresented but is simply far more important to future of economy as well as majority of the population compared to bullshit social issues in some of these contested states. Hasn't NYC one of the highest poverty rates in the US while Bloomberg is busy building giant luxury apartments everywhere? his property tax regime isnt ideal but it is a bit unfair to blame the poverty problem on him. there are drug and mental health problems and that is really an underdiscussed issue in general
this article has some stats on his budgetary commitment to antipoverty efforts. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304858104579262601685432082
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The debate over whether Canadian-born Ted Cruz is eligible to be US president is moving from the campaign trail to the courtroom.
Lawsuits challenging the Texas Republican’s eligibility for the ballot have been filed in states including Illinois, New York and Alabama.
Fellow candidate Donald Trump has also threatened to sue over the issue.
Cruz and legal experts say he is eligible because his mother was a US citizen when he was born.
The Illinois plaintiff is pharmacist and lawyer Lawrence Joyce. He says he fears if Cruz becomes the Republican nominee, Democrats will get him kicked off the ballot in some states or Cruz will be forced to drop out and Republicans will replace him with a moderate candidate.
Joyce says he backs Ben Carson but is acting independently.
A Cook County judge set a hearing for 1 March on a motion to dismiss the suit filed by Cruz’s lawyer. By then, ballots for Illinois’s 15 March primary will be printed and early voting under way.
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"They are the ones who pay a lot of the taxes. They are the ones who spend a lot money in the stores and the restaurants and create a big chunk of our economy,”
Stuff like that bothers me as being so disingenuous. Wealthy people pay so much of the taxes because they have so much of the money.
Look at the 40's through the 70's when we saw some of the highest tax rates for the wealthy and the share of taxes they paid through that...
Propaganda has got people looking at this bass-ackwards.
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