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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On January 14 2016 03:23 Gorsameth wrote: Then you haven't been paying much attention have you. Remind me again when the US moved to repair relations with Cuba and Iran and who protested against that? what are you even trying to argue | ||
KwarK
United States44448 Posts
On January 14 2016 03:19 oneofthem wrote: was not aware the u.s. is still stuck in the 1980's. let's be serious here, iran's terrorists are about as legit as they come besides saudi terrorists, but yea it's the way they do thinsg around those parts. Pretty much only if you're asking Israel. If you ask Turkey they'll tell you the US are arming terrorist Kurdish groups. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
Gorsameth are you complaining that the opposition party is in opposition to policies the party they're in opposition with support? Thats not being obstinate that just doing your job. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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KwarK
United States44448 Posts
On January 14 2016 03:56 Sermokala wrote: Its hard to be friendly with a nation that shouts "death to america" as america. Even as much as they want to dress it up now they're still against everything we stand for. Gorsameth are you complaining that the opposition party is in opposition to policies the party they're in opposition with support? Thats not being obstinate that just doing your job. They're not against everything you stand for. They're against the fact that the United States has been really, really shitty to Iran forever. They don't hate freedom, justice and apple pie. They hate the way the US has fucked them. The US is 110% the bad guy in this relationship. However due to the massive imbalance in geopolitical power the Iranians are being good sports about all the shit you've done to them over the last fifty years and are taking us at our word when we say "don't worry baby, this time it'll be different". And they're doing this even while half of America is going "FUCK YOU IRAN, IT'LL NEVER BE DIFFERENT, WE SHOULD INVADE!". | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
On January 14 2016 03:09 OtherWorld wrote: Heyoh guys, how is the Sanders - Clinton battle shaping up? edit : and how is the Republican primary really shaping up? Here in France we mostly hear about TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP, but what are his actual chances - at the primary, not at the presidency should he win the primary ? The guy who is collecting attention is getting attention because hes getting attention. No one really knows how it'll work further down the line with this 24/7 information world. Trump has no chance to win the presidency but might win the GOP nomination. Hes like the anti obama for electoral math. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
On January 14 2016 04:00 KwarK wrote: They're not against everything you stand for. They're against the fact that the United States has been really, really shitty to Iran forever. They don't hate freedom, justice and apple pie. They hate the way the US has fucked them. The US is 110% the bad guy in this relationship. However due to the massive imbalance in geopolitical power the Iranians are being good sports about all the shit you've done to them over the last fifty years and are taking us at our word when we say "don't worry baby, this time it'll be different". And they're doing this even while half of America is going "FUCK YOU IRAN, IT'LL NEVER BE DIFFERENT, WE SHOULD INVADE!". Replace Iran in this instance with Vietnam. How has what we did in Vietnam better then what we did in Iran? | ||
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KwarK
United States44448 Posts
On January 14 2016 04:08 Sermokala wrote: Replace Iran in this instance with Vietnam. How has what we did in Vietnam better then what we did in Iran? I'm confused. America did shitty things in both. The reasons behind the shitty things you did in Iran were probably worse but given you were directly committing war crimes in Vietnam the objective shit you did to Vietnam was shittier. Are you suggesting we should invade Vietnam again? Or are you arguing that Iran shouldn't take it so personally because America was going through some shit, had been drinking and lashed out at a bunch of countries? I don't get it. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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KwarK
United States44448 Posts
Bush's colossal fuckups with nation building and Iraq extend to our relationship with Iran who was fucked over because the US decided to bet everything on Iraq. Just another beautiful part of the legacy he left. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
Recently though vietnam has become a good friend to america as they opened their market and reestablished diplomatic relations with us. Iran hasn't opened up its markets and opened up diplomatic ties deciding to instead persue nuclear proliferation. International relations aren't a one sided affair. Iran has some responsibility for inflammatory rhetoric and for wanting to pursue a nuclear arsenal instead of what Vietnam did. I'm not saying the iran-iraq war wasn't a 110% shittiest thing ever thing to do by america but laying all the blame on America for the current situation with iran isn't honest at all. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24507 Posts
On January 14 2016 03:09 OtherWorld wrote: Heyoh guys, how is the Sanders - Clinton battle shaping up? edit : and how is the Republican primary really shaping up? Here in France we mostly hear about TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP, but what are his actual chances - at the primary, not at the presidency should he win the primary ? Well Clinton sent out her daughter and she herself have been attacking Sanders on Universal healthcare saying he wants to get rid of the ACA, medicare, medicaid, ect. Probably has to do with him leading in Iowa and NH and having gained ~13 points nationally over the last month (41%-48% Clinton) But so far the attack is going over like a lead balloon, even her own crowd was sketchy about it. Sanders is considered honest and trustworthy by 96% of Democrats as opposed to Hillary who's trustworthy number among Dems is in the 70's. So he says he wants healthcare for everyone as a right and she says he wants to get rid of the programs people are familiar with it comes of as a total cheap shot and very dishonest. Maybe 08 Hillary could talk to 16 Hillary and get her to knock it off? | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
It's actually kind of impressive how badly bush fucked up. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
This, on top of the issues we created in Iran over the decade and Bush’s totally botched efforts at nation building are why we are where we are today. There are parts of Iran that are not great. Many far worse than the US. But they are a sovereign nation and not going any place. So using communication s tactics that resemble a petty, middle schooler with a slam book are not helpful. And that is how a lot of politicians treat Iran and other middle east nations. On January 14 2016 04:37 ticklishmusic wrote: One of Obama's perceived biggest failures is not cleaning up bush's mess. It's actually kind of impressive how badly bush fucked up. He held elections in a country that has been under a dictatorship for over a generation in two separate nations and was somehow surprised that less than qualified people were elected. And that those elected didn't have much respect for the political process. Like how dumb can someone be? The dictatorship spent those decades repressing or killing anyone with leadership skills and qualifications. What the fuck did they think was going to happen? These countries are barely nations, held together by boarders, not a sense of nationalism. The worst part about this was experts were shouting what I am saying from the roof tops. We were aware of the flaws, but Bush did it anyways. | ||
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KwarK
United States44448 Posts
On January 14 2016 04:34 Sermokala wrote: No my point is that the shitty things we did in vietnam and the shitty things we did in iran are both in a separate uncompareable degree of shittyness. But the things we did in the country had nothing to do in particular about the country itself but a policy that we went with for the region as a whole and people understand that. Its the leaders in Iran that are shouting "death to america" while building a bomb are triggering the same rabble rousers that were triggered when communism was around and people were cheering for a global revolution. Recently though vietnam has become a good friend to america as they opened their market and reestablished diplomatic relations with us. Iran hasn't opened up its markets and opened up diplomatic ties deciding to instead persue nuclear proliferation. International relations aren't a one sided affair. Iran has some responsibility for inflammatory rhetoric and for wanting to pursue a nuclear arsenal instead of what Vietnam did. I'm not saying the iran-iraq war wasn't a 110% shittiest thing ever thing to do by america but laying all the blame on America for the current situation with iran isn't honest at all. I mentioned this a few pages ago but it's worth bringing up again. The American Navy also shot down an Iranian passenger airliner for literally no reason (their own investigation basically blamed mass hysteria because they couldn't pin it on faulty instruments or anything because all the instruments were going "this is a civilian airliner") killing hundreds of civilians, many of which were children. Afterwards the US wouldn't apologize and even gave a medal to the captain of the ship who, even before this incident, had a reputation for reckless and unprovoked actions throughout the Persian Gulf. Now, as Jonny will surely point out, the medal wasn't explicitly for that time he murdered hundreds of Iranian civilians using missiles paid for by the US taxpayer while wearing a uniform with the US flag on it. It was a medal given more broadly for all the things he did around that time, most of which weren't mass murder. But you can see why the Iranians might feel like America was behaving a little arrogantly and not giving appropriate respect to their feelings in this incident. Given how upset people got over the 9/11 mosque which wasn't at the 9/11 site or even a mosque you can imagine how upset they'd get if hijackers were wearing Iranian uniforms and then afterwards Iran gave them medals for their actions that September. The United States has a long history of belligerence, hypocrisy and arrogance relying purely on its military might to get away with shit no other nation would be stupid enough to do. Sure, a fuckload of Iranians hate the US. That's probably because the US is worthy of their hate. The US has literally done everything they hate it for. However Iran's government is willing to trust the US again, despite the calls for invasion. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
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KwarK
United States44448 Posts
On January 14 2016 04:47 Sermokala wrote: Setting up diplomatic ties is a thing that has been going on from way before USA was discovered. Your embassy in another country is suppose to be considered the territory of whoevers embassy it is. Effectivly the iranian revlution invaded america and took prisinors of war And effectively the American sheltering of the Shah, whose regime tortured and murdered countless Iranian civilians, from justice was a crime against the Iranian people. This all started when the US and the UK deposed the democratic regime of Iran and installed a totalitarian regime which they sponsored. That regime, with constant American support, committed atrocities against the Iranian people until the revolution. No shit the American embassy was caught up in the revolution, it was as much a symbol of oppression as the Bastille. The United States is absolutely the bad guy in this relationship. It's as if the British in 1789 were way bigger dicks and tortured/disappeared half the founding fathers, then sheltered the British governor who was doing all the torturing. Then a few decades later the British decided to try and stir up the American civil war and make it last as long as possible and be as bloody as possible by arming both sides in the hope that as many of both would die as possible. A few years after that some British soldiers in British uniforms do 9/11 and rather than apologize they give the guys medals while America is helpless to do anything because in this alternate timeline Britain is still a superpower. Then Britain gets 9/11'd by Mexico or some shit and the United States offers to help as an olive branch and Britain accepts and you both invade Mexico together. Then Britain decides that actually it doesn't need to be nice to you because it has Mexico now so they call you evil and threaten to retake the colonies. Sure, you can say that the violation of the embassy by the Iranian people was an attack. That changes nothing, America was already at war with the Iranian people and had been for a generation. Furthermore in Iran's position you'd absolutely want a nuclear weapon, if only so you could stop worrying than America would follow up on its constant threats and invade you. A nuclear weapon has historically proven itself to be a very effective guarantee of national sovereignty and you can't deny that Iran has legitimate reasons to fear further attacks on its sovereignty by the United States. Giving up the nuclear ambitions is a huge gesture of trust in the United States that the saner half of the country will not let the insane half keep doing the same shit it's been doing for 50 years. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On January 14 2016 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote: Well Clinton sent out her daughter and she herself have been attacking Sanders on Universal healthcare saying he wants to get rid of the ACA, medicare, medicaid, ect. Clinton needs a back hand smack to the face | ||
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