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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 30 2015 20:03 GMT
#54041
We aren't, but don't let that get in the way of your nationalism.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22073 Posts
December 30 2015 20:15 GMT
#54042
On December 31 2015 05:01 Deathstar wrote:
That fact that people can't even admit that the US is the greatest country thus far in history shows that we can't even agree on fairly obvious truths.

But sure, some country has more gdp per capita than us therefore they're in the same league as us lmao.

Greatest country in history? wow yeah your not going to get a universal truth on that lol
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11735 Posts
December 30 2015 20:28 GMT
#54043
Also, who gives a crap. I would greatly prefer living in "the greatest country to live in" than "the greatest country in history". It's also very, very hard to define such a thing.

If you are talking about impact on history (once again pretty nebulous), countries obviously become more important the further back in time they are. Under that criterium, the british Empire is obviously greater than the US, as it has direct influence in creating the US, thus any impact the US has can be attributed back to the british empire. And the roman Empire is even more important, as it had a large impact in shaping europe and thus also the british empire.

"greatest" is just very hard to define, and to me it shouldn't even be the goal of a country to become the "greatest", the goal should be to become the best place for its citizens, and probably also having a positive impact on citizens of other countries.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 30 2015 20:48 GMT
#54044
Puerto Rico has run out of time and money and will default on $37m of its debt repayments on 1 January, Governor Alejandro Padilla confirmed on Wednesday.

The troubled commonwealth is at loggerheads with investors over plans to restructure $70bn in debts that have triggered a financial crisis on the island leading to mass migration, school closures and escalating unemployment and poverty.

The island began defaulting on payments in August and faces close to $1bn in interest payments in 2016. Padilla said Puerto Rico would pay $354m of its obligations but will default on $35.9m of Puerto Rico Infrastructure Financing Authority debt and $1.4m of Public Finance Corp bonds, Padilla said. He also warned that the island did not have the cash to pay $400m due in May in Government Development Bank bonds.

Padilla said the island’s government would do “all [it] can to avoid” the shutdown of vital government services.

Puerto Rico’s unemployment rate is 12.5%, more than twice the US national average, and 45% of its population now lives below the poverty line. Padilla has warned its crushing debts have sent the commonwealth into a “death spiral”.

Unlike mainland municipalities, notably Detroit, the commonwealth is legally barred from declaring bankruptcy. Padilla has pushed, unsuccessfully, for Congress to change the law and allow Puerto Rico to declare bankruptcy.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
December 30 2015 21:25 GMT
#54045
On December 31 2015 03:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 30 2015 09:56 cLutZ wrote:
On December 30 2015 09:08 m4ini wrote:
First time i hear the EU is low regulation. Especially the comparison to the FDA is off, since EU law is a lot stricter than rulings of the FDA. GMO etc, or even ridiculously dumb stuff like a ban on "not correctly shaped bananas and cucumbers". And that's not made up, that was a law from 1995 to 2008.

edit: or when it comes to labels, in fact.

Look at most economic freedom of the world indexes. Scandinavia and Canada best the US by a large margin in regulation categories, and the US maintains overall parity with lower tax burdens.


Economic freedom is a nice ideological concept, but what has it turned into? The U.S. is behind a lot of "socialist" countries when it comes to things like quality of life, health outcomes, levels of political corruption, safety, etc.


The US also lags behind a lot of those socialist countries in economic freedom, we are a measly 16! http://www.freetheworld.com/2015/economic-freedom-of-the-world-2015.pdf

Due to lagging behind our other English speaking counterparts in having a sound legal system and sound/nonarbitrary regulation of labor, business, and credit we can't even beat the UK, Canada, or Australia!
Freeeeeeedom
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
December 30 2015 22:32 GMT
#54046
Only $70Bn? They should just get JPMorgan to buy Puerto Rico, like they did with Bear Stearns. Problem solved.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 30 2015 22:36 GMT
#54047
JP Morgan Chase should not be inflicted on any population by a government. I work for that bank in the legal sector, cleaning up their horrible low level decisions. It would be a war crime.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
December 30 2015 22:38 GMT
#54048
any attempt to try to define a country as the greatest ever is pointless because obviously there's no determined criteria for what makes a country the greatest. If your going to call a country the greatest at least explain why you think it is because without some type of explanation its an empty statement.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 30 2015 23:33 GMT
#54049
Mayor Rahm Emanuel said on Wednesday that Chicago police must be better trained to distinguish between when they can use a gun and when they should use a gun, after a series of shootings by officers sparked protests and complaints that police are too quick to fire their weapons.

Emanuel announced changes in police training and department policies on use of force during a news conference. He also said the police department will double the number of Tasers available to officers – from 700 to 1,400 – as he works to restore public trust in the police force and his administration.

“Our police officers have a very difficult and dangerous job. They put their lives on the line so the rest of us can be safe. And like all of us, they are human and they make mistakes,” the mayor said. “Our job is to reduce the chances of mistakes.

“That requires us to give them the right guidance, the right training, and the right culture, to prevent abuses,” he said. “Willful misconduct and abuse cannot and will not be tolerated.”

Emanuel pledged training to make police encounters with citizens “less confrontational and more conversational”. He said “force should be the last option and not the first choice”.

Every police patrol car will be equipped with a Taser by 1 June 2016, he said.
Interim police superintendent John Escalante said the city looked at 15 police departments, including New York, Seattle, Cincinnati and Cleveland, as it developed its policy changes.

Emanuel and Chicago police have been under heavy scrutiny since the city, under court order, released a squad car video last month showing white officer Jason Van Dyke shooting black 17-year-old Laquan McDonald 16 times in 2014. McDonald, armed with a knife, is seen veering away from Van Dyke in the video before the veteran officer starts firing.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23617 Posts
December 31 2015 00:47 GMT
#54050
On December 31 2015 08:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Mayor Rahm Emanuel said on Wednesday that Chicago police must be better trained to distinguish between when they can use a gun and when they should use a gun, after a series of shootings by officers sparked protests and complaints that police are too quick to fire their weapons.

Emanuel announced changes in police training and department policies on use of force during a news conference. He also said the police department will double the number of Tasers available to officers – from 700 to 1,400 – as he works to restore public trust in the police force and his administration.

“Our police officers have a very difficult and dangerous job. They put their lives on the line so the rest of us can be safe. And like all of us, they are human and they make mistakes,” the mayor said. “Our job is to reduce the chances of mistakes.

“That requires us to give them the right guidance, the right training, and the right culture, to prevent abuses,” he said. “Willful misconduct and abuse cannot and will not be tolerated.”

Emanuel pledged training to make police encounters with citizens “less confrontational and more conversational”. He said “force should be the last option and not the first choice”.

Every police patrol car will be equipped with a Taser by 1 June 2016, he said.
Interim police superintendent John Escalante said the city looked at 15 police departments, including New York, Seattle, Cincinnati and Cleveland, as it developed its policy changes.

Emanuel and Chicago police have been under heavy scrutiny since the city, under court order, released a squad car video last month showing white officer Jason Van Dyke shooting black 17-year-old Laquan McDonald 16 times in 2014. McDonald, armed with a knife, is seen veering away from Van Dyke in the video before the veteran officer starts firing.


Source


He does realize that he can't restore trust in the police when the people don't trust him in the first place right? The police routinely lie on their reports, until they open with addressing that, the rest is dressing.

Police departments need full independent audits/reviews and people need to go to jail/get fired. So long as mothers are being "accidentally" shot because a neighbor is having a psychological episode with a bat, and they don't even want to fire people, we aren't even touching the issues.

Related story
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-31 01:06:03
December 31 2015 00:52 GMT
#54051
On December 31 2015 04:13 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2015 03:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On December 30 2015 09:56 cLutZ wrote:
On December 30 2015 09:08 m4ini wrote:
First time i hear the EU is low regulation. Especially the comparison to the FDA is off, since EU law is a lot stricter than rulings of the FDA. GMO etc, or even ridiculously dumb stuff like a ban on "not correctly shaped bananas and cucumbers". And that's not made up, that was a law from 1995 to 2008.

edit: or when it comes to labels, in fact.

Look at most economic freedom of the world indexes. Scandinavia and Canada best the US by a large margin in regulation categories, and the US maintains overall parity with lower tax burdens.


Economic freedom is a nice ideological concept, but what has it turned into? The U.S. is behind a lot of "socialist" countries when it comes to things like quality of life, health outcomes, levels of political corruption, safety, etc.

And yet people continue to give the US tons and tons of money and trade. The US continues to put out exceptional products and services that the world consumes more than any other country or region.

Yea, it's true when you begin measuring specific aspects of life and social performance, the US no longer comes out on top. However, at the end of the day, the US is still top dog economically and militarily, by a solid margin. Saying those other countries beat us in X, Y, and/or Z is the equivalent to saying that your understanding of SC2 should put you in GM league, but because of your APM, you're stuck in Plat. Results matter, and the US has 'em.


Being the top dog economically and militarily is irrelevant for the individual people and how they live their lives. It's a fact that socioeconomic mobility is easier in these "socialist" countries, that the average person has more money (relative to their society), that the average person has better access to healthcare and other social services, etc.

Those economic and military advantages don't turn into anything concrete for the average person. The economic advantages just help the already rich, and the military advantages mostly help the political class. Yea, the average person benefits indirectly from both, but that person would still be much better off moving to northern Europe if they're just thinking about their socioeconomic well-being (and not personal preferences, family, etc.).

That fact that people can't even admit that the US is the greatest country thus far in history shows that we can't even agree on fairly obvious truths.

But sure, some country has more gdp per capita than us therefore they're in the same league as us lmao.


How so?

Economically? Probably not. The British Empire, as well as several other countries/empires throughout history, had much more economic influence relative to their era.

Militarily? Again, probably not. Obviously technology has made us the most powerful ever in absolute terms, but definitely not relatively. There are several armies throughout history that have dominated in a much more impressive fashion than we ever have.

Socially? Eh. many parts of the country are ass-backwards in terms of social justice, respect for science and intellectualism, race relations, sex relations, etc. We also have a high level of institutionalized (and non-institutionalized) corruption that favors a particular group/class of society.

Freedoms? Definitely not. If you want to talk about absolute terms, there are several countries around the world that are near-anarchies, where you can do whatever the hell you want. Relative terms? There are a number of other countries that are 1) less corrupt than us and/or 2) give people more freedoms due to all of the social safety nets they have (minimum wages, guaranteed paid leave, free education, etc.). This doesn't even address the blatant institutionalized racism in our country, the constant struggle for gay rights, and the consistent battle women have for control over their own bodies. There is no metric by which America is actually the "freest country ever". That's just a useless platitude that people throw around.

America is a pretty great place to live in, and it may have been the place to envy a couple generations ago, but the 20th century is over. All this talk about "the American dream" and "greatness" and whatnot is just nostalgia. The only thing we are truly exceptional at is military and economic influence in international politics. In the life of an actual average person, there are many other places in the world where you could live and have just as good as a life (or even better!).

Someone else alluded to this rhetoric of the "greatest country" earlier on this page. As someone who's gone through military training, I hated hearing people say that they're fighting for the greatest country on earth. Why? Because that incredibly nebulous moniker can change at any time. All that says is that you are, in a way, a mercenary. I love America because it's home. It's where I was born, grew up, got an education, got married, where all of my family is, where I served in the military, it has many cultural aspects that I enjoy, and it's where I will probably die. That is a much stronger tie than "it's the greatest country" because, quite frankly, it's not. At least not for the average person.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
December 31 2015 03:00 GMT
#54052
America's cultural attitude towards immigration is probably something Europe could need a good dose of at the moment. If you could give us that and we give you some social policies that would be a good idea I think.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10842 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-31 03:10:56
December 31 2015 03:09 GMT
#54053
On December 31 2015 12:00 Nyxisto wrote:
America's cultural attitude towards immigration is probably something Europe could need a good dose of at the moment. If you could give us that and we give you some social policies that would be a good idea I think.



Uhm... Build a wall on the mexian border?
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
December 31 2015 03:13 GMT
#54054
well reducing the United states history to one stupid wallbuilder as a German would probably backfire.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 31 2015 03:20 GMT
#54055
When Congress effectively lifted the federal ban on medical marijuana a year ago, Californians drove the landmark change, which was tucked into a sprawling spending package by a liberal lawmaker from the Monterey peninsula and his conservative colleague from Orange County.

A year later, marijuana legalization advocates are conflicted over how big a victory the congressional vote, which was repeated this month, has turned out to be.

“The number of raids has dropped substantially, though not completely,” across the country, said Mike Liszewski, government affairs director for Americans for Safe Access, a medical marijuana advocacy group. A federal court ruling this fall, if it is upheld, would limit federal agents from targeting all but operations that are clearly flouting state law, he noted.

But in California, in particular, federal prosecutors continue to pursue cases, in large part because of flaws in the existing state medical marijuana law, which all sides agree is long overdue for an overhaul. Gov. Jerry Brown has signed three measures to clarify the state law, but those won’t take effect until 2018.

So for now, the state that was America’s birthplace for legal medical pot remains at the center of legal disputes as federal prosecutors struggle to navigate a murky landscape in which the line between healers and drug dealers is not always clear.

The two members of Congress who championed the new approach say prosecutors are not following Congress’ intent.

“The will of the people is clear: The majority of the states have enacted medical marijuana laws, Congress has voted twice now to protect those patients, and a federal judge has upheld” the measure, Rep. Sam Farr (D-Carmel) wrote in an email. “How many times does the Justice Department need to be told to back off before it finally sinks in?”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10842 Posts
December 31 2015 03:21 GMT
#54056
I'm not, but the US seems to behave just as unwelcoming towards poor immigrants as europe does, this notion that the US is somehow nicer to immigrants in general is just not true.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
December 31 2015 03:29 GMT
#54057
On December 31 2015 12:00 Nyxisto wrote:
America's cultural attitude towards immigration is probably something Europe could need a good dose of at the moment. If you could give us that and we give you some social policies that would be a good idea I think.


As an American, I will share with you the secret:

1. Admit only people who are basically the same as the people already in your country.
2. Ignore racists for ~10 years when they start complaining about this immigration (this begins 10-20 years into the wave of immigration so you get 20-30 years).
3. Cut off nearly all immigration.
4. Indoctrinate all the remaining differences in culture (besides food) out of the immigrant community that people initially didn't like for 20-40 years.
5. Return to 1.
Freeeeeeedom
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4887 Posts
December 31 2015 03:34 GMT
#54058
If memory serves, that's similar to how it worked before thr 60s, though perhaps more by accident than design.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
December 31 2015 03:39 GMT
#54059
The US has had more practice at race relations and immigration but we are still pretty terrible at it. I can't comment how EU countries do at it.
Never Knows Best.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14101 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-31 03:48:18
December 31 2015 03:43 GMT
#54060
America was used as a pressure valve to avoid a lot of sectarian a religious violence. My ancestors came over to America during a handover from catholic to Lutheran friendly governments.

A lot of our greatness came from not being a shitty place to live in the 20th century. Which was a rare thing you have to admit. Disney McDonald's and apple have probably done more for us cultural hegemony then anything else. Everyone watches our movies eats our food and listens to our music on the products we invented.

Tldr:we have KwarK your anti USA argument is invalid.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
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