|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Every hour on the hour, san bernadino police will update the press on progress, even if there is none.
|
On December 03 2015 07:01 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 06:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 06:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Nah, the 2nd amendment is definitely a white person thing in America. No other ethnic group spouts it as much or as loudly as that group. At least not in the public sphere of media talking points. It's a white people thing because white people culture has a longer US history. We are not a unique situation. Every other country that fought against a foreign authority has a similar culture where we need some sort of physical protection against the government. I'm sorry, you think white people in the United States have an experience of being oppressed by another group that black people in the United States cannot relate to? Firstly, the war of independence was not against a foreign power, England was a foreign power to the Native Americans, it was the home nation to the majority of the colonists. They were fighting due to a constitutional disagreement with their monarchy, it was a republican secession. Secondly, the war of independence has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of Americans who descend from Europeans who came much later. There was constant large scale migration to the United States from Europe after the founding. Your forefathers did not fight against England, they most likely came from England. Thirdly, are you kidding me about white Americans having an exclusive experience of oppression? You think you need your guns in case King George tries to put tax on your tea? But the blacks can't relate to that because they're only afraid of being enslaved and made to pick cotton? Black Americans have a far greater historical understanding of how important the right to bear arms to defend their rights would be.
What do you think was the original intent behind the 2nd amendment?
|
On December 03 2015 07:07 m4ini wrote:
What i don't understand, are there no cameras around? There's huge parking lots, it's a huge building - there has to be some security, to at least be able to answer the question of how many gunmen we're talking here or not?
They certainly have the video in hand already. I'm sure that there was quite a bit that they know that they didn't disclose.
|
On December 03 2015 07:11 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 07:07 m4ini wrote:
What i don't understand, are there no cameras around? There's huge parking lots, it's a huge building - there has to be some security, to at least be able to answer the question of how many gunmen we're talking here or not? They certainly have the video in hand already. I'm sure that there was quite a bit that they know that they didn't disclose.
Oh that's for certain, but why exactly that information? If there's cameras, the gunmen know that the police knows how many they are. The only ones NOT knowing how many wolves there are, are the sheep.
That's weird to me.
|
On December 03 2015 07:14 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 07:11 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 07:07 m4ini wrote:
What i don't understand, are there no cameras around? There's huge parking lots, it's a huge building - there has to be some security, to at least be able to answer the question of how many gunmen we're talking here or not? They certainly have the video in hand already. I'm sure that there was quite a bit that they know that they didn't disclose. Oh that's for certain, but why exactly that information? If there's cameras, the gunmen know that the police knows how many they are. The only ones NOT knowing how many wolves there are, are the sheep. That's weird to me.
Because the information they have from the video might be wrong. There could be 4 gunmen and one few them didn't appear on video. Just because they have information doesn't' mean they should be slamming it out to the public as fast as they can. Reviewing things and making sense of what took place takes time.
|
United States43952 Posts
On December 03 2015 07:11 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 07:01 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 06:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 06:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Nah, the 2nd amendment is definitely a white person thing in America. No other ethnic group spouts it as much or as loudly as that group. At least not in the public sphere of media talking points. It's a white people thing because white people culture has a longer US history. We are not a unique situation. Every other country that fought against a foreign authority has a similar culture where we need some sort of physical protection against the government. I'm sorry, you think white people in the United States have an experience of being oppressed by another group that black people in the United States cannot relate to? Firstly, the war of independence was not against a foreign power, England was a foreign power to the Native Americans, it was the home nation to the majority of the colonists. They were fighting due to a constitutional disagreement with their monarchy, it was a republican secession. Secondly, the war of independence has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of Americans who descend from Europeans who came much later. There was constant large scale migration to the United States from Europe after the founding. Your forefathers did not fight against England, they most likely came from England. Thirdly, are you kidding me about white Americans having an exclusive experience of oppression? You think you need your guns in case King George tries to put tax on your tea? But the blacks can't relate to that because they're only afraid of being enslaved and made to pick cotton? Black Americans have a far greater historical understanding of how important the right to bear arms to defend their rights would be. What do you think was the original intent behind the 2nd amendment?
To defend the rights and liberty of the population against an oppressive government that fails to represent them or their interests through the threat of force. Historically speaking the African American population of the United States have a little more experience of a government that infringes upon their rights and liberties and of a government that fails to represent them and their interests than the whites.
White people decided they needed the second amendment so that nobody would dare put taxes on their tea. Which is important, I get that, tea is serious business. But it's a little myopic to think that black people can't relate to an injustice of that magnitude by a government not serving their interests.
|
On December 03 2015 07:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 07:11 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 07:01 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 06:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 06:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Nah, the 2nd amendment is definitely a white person thing in America. No other ethnic group spouts it as much or as loudly as that group. At least not in the public sphere of media talking points. It's a white people thing because white people culture has a longer US history. We are not a unique situation. Every other country that fought against a foreign authority has a similar culture where we need some sort of physical protection against the government. I'm sorry, you think white people in the United States have an experience of being oppressed by another group that black people in the United States cannot relate to? Firstly, the war of independence was not against a foreign power, England was a foreign power to the Native Americans, it was the home nation to the majority of the colonists. They were fighting due to a constitutional disagreement with their monarchy, it was a republican secession. Secondly, the war of independence has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of Americans who descend from Europeans who came much later. There was constant large scale migration to the United States from Europe after the founding. Your forefathers did not fight against England, they most likely came from England. Thirdly, are you kidding me about white Americans having an exclusive experience of oppression? You think you need your guns in case King George tries to put tax on your tea? But the blacks can't relate to that because they're only afraid of being enslaved and made to pick cotton? Black Americans have a far greater historical understanding of how important the right to bear arms to defend their rights would be. What do you think was the original intent behind the 2nd amendment? To defend the rights and liberty of the population against an oppressive government that fails to represent them or their interests through the threat of force. Historically speaking the African American population of the United States have a little more experience of a government that infringes upon their rights and liberties and of a government that fails to represent them and their interests than the whites. White people decided they needed the second amendment so that nobody would dare put taxes on their tea. Which is important, I get that, tea is serious business. But it's a little myopic to think that black people can't relate to an injustice of that magnitude by a government not serving their interests.
I never said black people don't relate to injustice, lol. I was pointing out that the people throwing a fit about tea taxes were a bunch of white people and those white people were the ones to pass on the feelings and beliefs associated with that. It was mentioned that white americans are the ones who are most enthusiastic about the 2nd amendment. I was pointing out why I think that's the case. I don't understand what exactly you're arguing about black oppression or whatever.
|
On December 03 2015 05:17 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 05:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 03 2015 05:13 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 05:11 m4ini wrote:On December 03 2015 05:06 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On December 03 2015 05:02 m4ini wrote:On December 03 2015 04:48 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 04:40 m4ini wrote:On December 03 2015 03:05 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:53 Yoav wrote:
[quote]
Though, as you point out, this requires a level of ruthlessness and willful cruelty that is now considered beyond the pale. Sure, we could wipe out ISIS and everyone who sympathizes with them. We could destroy entire villages that gave us shit. But hell, even ISIS tends to not put entire villages to death. At the point your brutality has eclipsed your enemy, you have given up any moral justification for war.
The whole convincing folks of Western values thing seems like a better bet. Let's add that it's remarkable how much appeal the West really has. Even our worse traits (hedonism etc) are pretty attractive to people.
Putting it another way, look at the history of US interactions with pretty much any Latin American country. Back when we were focused on killing our enemies, we kept making more. When we gave up on that (mostly through boredom and distraction, and partly due to confidence) we actually started to make friends. If anything, radical Islam is more of a problem now than it was two decades ago. And how exactly is that surprising? Additionally I think you would struggle to describe the last two decades as being non confrontational with Islam and trying to win them over with cultural superiority and the high road. Things have gotten worse but that is not a point against the ideological strategy, that wasn't the strategy used in the last two decades. The military strategy is the one condemned by failure. Couldn't have said it better. That being said, what's going on in San Bernadino? The most heavily armed/armored active shooters since the North Hollywood bank shootout? But this time with heaps of dead. .. and where did you gather that? Search the internet. They are reported to be heavily armed and wearing military gear. I don't know about armor, but it could be true. On December 03 2015 05:12 xDaunt wrote:
What was attacked? A country club/golf course? Fire department. It is unclear how why specifically. reuters has: A police spokeswoman told the Times that the suspects were heavily armed and possibly wearing body armor. on that And that's apparently all we now. That's a bit less than "The most heavily armed/armored active shooters since the North Hollywood bank shootout? But this time with heaps of dead." No dead confirmed as far as sky5 reports, no info on shooters.
14 dead / 14 wounded / full battle rattle confirmed
|
On December 03 2015 07:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 07:18 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 07:11 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 07:01 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 06:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 06:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Nah, the 2nd amendment is definitely a white person thing in America. No other ethnic group spouts it as much or as loudly as that group. At least not in the public sphere of media talking points. It's a white people thing because white people culture has a longer US history. We are not a unique situation. Every other country that fought against a foreign authority has a similar culture where we need some sort of physical protection against the government. I'm sorry, you think white people in the United States have an experience of being oppressed by another group that black people in the United States cannot relate to? Firstly, the war of independence was not against a foreign power, England was a foreign power to the Native Americans, it was the home nation to the majority of the colonists. They were fighting due to a constitutional disagreement with their monarchy, it was a republican secession. Secondly, the war of independence has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of Americans who descend from Europeans who came much later. There was constant large scale migration to the United States from Europe after the founding. Your forefathers did not fight against England, they most likely came from England. Thirdly, are you kidding me about white Americans having an exclusive experience of oppression? You think you need your guns in case King George tries to put tax on your tea? But the blacks can't relate to that because they're only afraid of being enslaved and made to pick cotton? Black Americans have a far greater historical understanding of how important the right to bear arms to defend their rights would be. What do you think was the original intent behind the 2nd amendment? To defend the rights and liberty of the population against an oppressive government that fails to represent them or their interests through the threat of force. Historically speaking the African American population of the United States have a little more experience of a government that infringes upon their rights and liberties and of a government that fails to represent them and their interests than the whites. White people decided they needed the second amendment so that nobody would dare put taxes on their tea. Which is important, I get that, tea is serious business. But it's a little myopic to think that black people can't relate to an injustice of that magnitude by a government not serving their interests. I never said black people don't relate to injustice, lol. I was pointing out that the people throwing a fit about tea taxes were a bunch of white people and those white people were the ones to pass on the feelings and beliefs associated with that. It was mentioned that white americans are the ones who are most enthusiastic about the 2nd amendment. I was pointing out why I think that's the case. I don't understand what exactly you're arguing about black oppression or whatever.
And why is it okay to idolize white looters to the point of naming a political party after them but as soon as the looter is black everybody loses their mind?
|
On December 03 2015 07:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 07:18 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 07:11 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 07:01 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 06:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 06:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Nah, the 2nd amendment is definitely a white person thing in America. No other ethnic group spouts it as much or as loudly as that group. At least not in the public sphere of media talking points. It's a white people thing because white people culture has a longer US history. We are not a unique situation. Every other country that fought against a foreign authority has a similar culture where we need some sort of physical protection against the government. I'm sorry, you think white people in the United States have an experience of being oppressed by another group that black people in the United States cannot relate to? Firstly, the war of independence was not against a foreign power, England was a foreign power to the Native Americans, it was the home nation to the majority of the colonists. They were fighting due to a constitutional disagreement with their monarchy, it was a republican secession. Secondly, the war of independence has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of Americans who descend from Europeans who came much later. There was constant large scale migration to the United States from Europe after the founding. Your forefathers did not fight against England, they most likely came from England. Thirdly, are you kidding me about white Americans having an exclusive experience of oppression? You think you need your guns in case King George tries to put tax on your tea? But the blacks can't relate to that because they're only afraid of being enslaved and made to pick cotton? Black Americans have a far greater historical understanding of how important the right to bear arms to defend their rights would be. What do you think was the original intent behind the 2nd amendment? To defend the rights and liberty of the population against an oppressive government that fails to represent them or their interests through the threat of force. Historically speaking the African American population of the United States have a little more experience of a government that infringes upon their rights and liberties and of a government that fails to represent them and their interests than the whites. White people decided they needed the second amendment so that nobody would dare put taxes on their tea. Which is important, I get that, tea is serious business. But it's a little myopic to think that black people can't relate to an injustice of that magnitude by a government not serving their interests. I never said black people don't relate to injustice, lol. I was pointing out that the people throwing a fit about tea taxes were a bunch of white people and those white people were the ones to pass on the feelings and beliefs associated with that. It was mentioned that white americans are the ones who are most enthusiastic about the 2nd amendment. I was pointing out why I think that's the case. I don't understand what exactly you're arguing about black oppression or whatever.
Because you pointed out that white people have a longer history in the US and that is why they feel strongly about the second amendment, which is untrue. Blacks have been here for almost the exact same amount of time, expect they didn't come here willingly. It is well documented that some slave owners sent their slaves to fight in the revolution rather than go themselves.
|
United States43952 Posts
On December 03 2015 07:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 07:18 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 07:11 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 07:01 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 06:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 06:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Nah, the 2nd amendment is definitely a white person thing in America. No other ethnic group spouts it as much or as loudly as that group. At least not in the public sphere of media talking points. It's a white people thing because white people culture has a longer US history. We are not a unique situation. Every other country that fought against a foreign authority has a similar culture where we need some sort of physical protection against the government. I'm sorry, you think white people in the United States have an experience of being oppressed by another group that black people in the United States cannot relate to? Firstly, the war of independence was not against a foreign power, England was a foreign power to the Native Americans, it was the home nation to the majority of the colonists. They were fighting due to a constitutional disagreement with their monarchy, it was a republican secession. Secondly, the war of independence has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of Americans who descend from Europeans who came much later. There was constant large scale migration to the United States from Europe after the founding. Your forefathers did not fight against England, they most likely came from England. Thirdly, are you kidding me about white Americans having an exclusive experience of oppression? You think you need your guns in case King George tries to put tax on your tea? But the blacks can't relate to that because they're only afraid of being enslaved and made to pick cotton? Black Americans have a far greater historical understanding of how important the right to bear arms to defend their rights would be. What do you think was the original intent behind the 2nd amendment? To defend the rights and liberty of the population against an oppressive government that fails to represent them or their interests through the threat of force. Historically speaking the African American population of the United States have a little more experience of a government that infringes upon their rights and liberties and of a government that fails to represent them and their interests than the whites. White people decided they needed the second amendment so that nobody would dare put taxes on their tea. Which is important, I get that, tea is serious business. But it's a little myopic to think that black people can't relate to an injustice of that magnitude by a government not serving their interests. I never said black people don't relate to injustice, lol. I was pointing out that the people throwing a fit about tea taxes were a bunch of white people and those white people were the ones to pass on the feelings and beliefs associated with that. It was mentioned that white americans are the ones who are most enthusiastic about the 2nd amendment. I was pointing out why I think that's the case. I don't understand what exactly you're arguing about black oppression or whatever.
The argument that white people relate more to the second amendment because of history misses the point that the group for whom the second amendment would have been most important are African Americans. If a person looks at their history and considers the second amendment an African American is going to come away thinking "holy shit, the government is awful, give me all the guns" far more often than a white American.
White Americans are more enthusiastic about the second amendment because African Americans understand that those rights are white people things and that while Cliven Bundy and his gang might be able to point guns at police officers and fight the government there is no way in hell a black American points a gun at authority and demands his rights. African Americans understand that for them rights are not God given but rather granted through the generosity of the white power and are best requested on their knees.
Society will forgive a white man taking an armed stand, it won't forgive a black man. They are required to use the institutions we set up for them and be grateful for it.
|
Hm.. Is it normal to lock down a hospital, even with yellow crime scene tape and officers in riot gear? I actually don't know that.
edit: nvm, reporter just said that's apparently not normal. Interesting.
edit2, 6 victims in the hospital now treated for gunshot wounds, 2 in ICU, one of which is critical but stable.
|
Yes, clearly the solution to people getting shot left and right is for everyone to get more guns. That is exactly how things work in practice. Just give everyone guns so they can finally shoot each other to the max.
I'm starting to seriously wonder when the USA will learn. Can you imagine the urban carnage once the real fearmongering & "open carry" starts? Ay caramba.
Nothing like a deranged senior militiaman with an AR15 to spice up your day.
|
On December 03 2015 07:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 07:23 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 07:18 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 07:11 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 07:01 KwarK wrote:On December 03 2015 06:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 06:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Nah, the 2nd amendment is definitely a white person thing in America. No other ethnic group spouts it as much or as loudly as that group. At least not in the public sphere of media talking points. It's a white people thing because white people culture has a longer US history. We are not a unique situation. Every other country that fought against a foreign authority has a similar culture where we need some sort of physical protection against the government. I'm sorry, you think white people in the United States have an experience of being oppressed by another group that black people in the United States cannot relate to? Firstly, the war of independence was not against a foreign power, England was a foreign power to the Native Americans, it was the home nation to the majority of the colonists. They were fighting due to a constitutional disagreement with their monarchy, it was a republican secession. Secondly, the war of independence has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of Americans who descend from Europeans who came much later. There was constant large scale migration to the United States from Europe after the founding. Your forefathers did not fight against England, they most likely came from England. Thirdly, are you kidding me about white Americans having an exclusive experience of oppression? You think you need your guns in case King George tries to put tax on your tea? But the blacks can't relate to that because they're only afraid of being enslaved and made to pick cotton? Black Americans have a far greater historical understanding of how important the right to bear arms to defend their rights would be. What do you think was the original intent behind the 2nd amendment? To defend the rights and liberty of the population against an oppressive government that fails to represent them or their interests through the threat of force. Historically speaking the African American population of the United States have a little more experience of a government that infringes upon their rights and liberties and of a government that fails to represent them and their interests than the whites. White people decided they needed the second amendment so that nobody would dare put taxes on their tea. Which is important, I get that, tea is serious business. But it's a little myopic to think that black people can't relate to an injustice of that magnitude by a government not serving their interests. I never said black people don't relate to injustice, lol. I was pointing out that the people throwing a fit about tea taxes were a bunch of white people and those white people were the ones to pass on the feelings and beliefs associated with that. It was mentioned that white americans are the ones who are most enthusiastic about the 2nd amendment. I was pointing out why I think that's the case. I don't understand what exactly you're arguing about black oppression or whatever. The argument that white people relate more to the second amendment because of history misses the point that the group for whom the second amendment would have been most important are African Americans. If a person looks at their history and considers the second amendment an African American is going to come away thinking "holy shit, the government is awful, give me all the guns" far more often than a white American. White Americans are more enthusiastic about the second amendment because African Americans understand that those rights are white people things and that while Cliven Bundy and his gang might be able to point guns at police officers and fight the government there is no way in hell a black American points a gun at authority and demands his rights. African Americans understand that for them rights are not God given but rather granted through the generosity of the white power and are best requested on their knees. Society will forgive a white man taking an armed stand, it won't forgive a black man. They are required to use the institutions we set up for them and be grateful for it.
I can't help but feel like we aren't understanding each other. I was never intending to say white people have been the victim more often or something. I was just pointing out that the rebels getting all fired up and throwing tea off of boats were white dudes. If someone asks me "Mohdoo, you are someone I know to be both handsome and intelligent. Please offer your perspective as to why a higher % of white people are passionate about the 2nd amendment compared to other races", I was saying my reply would be "Thanks, I have been going to the gym more frequently and I'm glad it has paid off. I imagine it is because the guys getting all fired up about tea taxes were white dudes. They were the ones being political and likely passed on those opinions to their kids".
I fully realize black dudes have had it a lot worse. I was never intending to question that. But as has been said, they had bigger issues than some tea taxes. They were not the ones organizing communities to make huge political statements. I take these differences to be why white people care more about the 2nd amendment.
|
Bomb threat towards the hospital that's treating the injured.
How fucked up is that.
|
On December 03 2015 07:54 m4ini wrote:
Bomb threat towards the hospital that's treating the injured.
How fucked up is that.
Sounds par for the course.
|
Looks like the police got a guy.
|
On December 03 2015 08:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 07:54 m4ini wrote:
Bomb threat towards the hospital that's treating the injured.
How fucked up is that. Sounds par for the course.
Guess so.
Police is chasing somewhere, allegedly shots heard after a car chase.
|
NRA and 2nd Amendment supporters need to take a serious look at the past 3 years and carefully consider how screwed up United States culture and mindset towards guns is. I am sick and tired of turning on the tv or going into work to see another news story saying "___ dead in ____ mass shooting", its just so disgusting and awful and US legislature and law enforcement are beyond helping. This is going to keep happening for the next 10 years if policies or a severe movement is made to dissolve the 2nd amendment as it is currently written and make gun laws harsher. I love the excuse of the idea that "people can get a gun anyways so making it illegal wont help" because there is literally no precedent to prove that. We have had more "mass shootings" this year than we have had days. That is fucking embarrassing, vile, and downright scary. I fear walking around public areas and metropolitan cities knowing some fucking nutcase can just come and shoot me in the back of the head and its GG.
Domestic Terrorism is a thing, copycat crimes are a thing, and our news continues to highlight these events to the world, detailing the acts done by the perpetrator(s), and glorifying the antihero. I fucking hate the US sometimes.
|
SWAT on route to that scene too, there's at least 30 (my estimate, might be 20 - but definately two SWAT trucks) vehicles which just took off from the first scene.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
