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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24156 Posts
On November 26 2015 07:15 Introvert wrote: Did I miss some stats on this? What is the "police violence rate" for former military police officers vs civilians? The statistics don't exist. They don't even have a statistic on how many cops are veterans let alone their comparative violence. Hell they still aren't even fully reporting how many people the police actually kill. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On November 26 2015 07:15 Introvert wrote: Did I miss some stats on this? What is the "police violence rate" for former military police officers vs civilians? Good question. I can't see waiving a requirement because you are part of a special class as a good idea though. | ||
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Introvert
United States5013 Posts
I mean waiving it is fine if we know those hires don't need it. But if there is no data, then yes, you should be careful about what is waived. I'm almost always for more data on public service, taxpayer funded type jobs. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
Both sides bitch about unions, agree on reforms, and then they're enacted for both teachers and cops. Hooray! Accountability and not shuffling people into school to prison pipeline! | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24156 Posts
On November 26 2015 09:12 Yoav wrote: So here's an idea: shoot the D lawmakers a note that you're gonna have a meeting on ways to implement police reforms (body cameras, recording statistics, increasing accountability, making them easier to fire, maybe paying them more) and invite R lawmakers to the meeting but tell them its about implementing teacher reforms. Both sides bitch about unions, agree on reforms, and then they're enacted for both teachers and cops. Hooray! Accountability and not shuffling people into school to prison pipeline! Yup that's what I was thinking. That's a more clever way to present it than I had come up with. I just wonder whether politicians and t heir supporters realize how bullshit that is or whether they are truly so blind as to not see the absurdity of why such a proposal makes such good satire. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46243 Posts
On November 26 2015 09:31 GreenHorizons wrote: Yup that's what I was thinking. That's a more clever way to present it than I had come up with. I just wonder whether politicians and t heir supporters realize how bullshit that is or whether they are truly so blind as to not see the absurdity of why such a proposal makes such good satire. Out of curiosity, what reforms would you guys like to see enacted for teachers' unions and teachers? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24156 Posts
On November 26 2015 09:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Out of curiosity, what reforms would you guys like to see enacted for teachers' unions and teachers? Easier to fire bad ones with seniority. Better ways to evaluate performance. Support from the unions for a full review and overhaul of K-12 education. Seem like the most sensible ones although there is some reasonable disagreement about how best to achieve those goals. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46243 Posts
On November 26 2015 10:01 GreenHorizons wrote: Easier to fire bad ones with seniority. Better ways to evaluate performance. Support from the unions for a full review and overhaul of K-12 education. Seem like the most sensible ones although there is some reasonable disagreement about how best to achieve those goals. While I agree with the seniority issue, I don't think your second and third points can just be solved by reforming unions or teacher rights. No one is preventing a magical way to perfectly evaluate teacher performance; it's simply the case that we haven't found an ideal way to do so. As far as overhauling K-12 goes, what do you mean by that? There are constantly curriculum changes and new methods being integrated all the time, thanks to educational research. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 26 2015 09:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Out of curiosity, what reforms would you guys like to see enacted for teachers' unions and teachers? All of the reforms. Public employee unions existing makes no sense, particularly with how much we understand about public choice theory nowadays. It is creating a state-sanctioned bargaining monopoly, who's very interests are against the state and the citizens of the state. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46243 Posts
On November 26 2015 10:25 cLutZ wrote: All of the reforms. Public employee unions existing makes no sense, particularly with how much we understand about public choice theory nowadays. It is creating a state-sanctioned bargaining monopoly, who's very interests are against the state and the citizens of the state. I feel like what you just said is "Everything because nothing makes sense", which might be true but we'd need to have a conversation about individual issues and what's wrong with them. Can you give an example, please? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24156 Posts
On November 26 2015 10:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: While I agree with the seniority issue, I don't think your second and third points can just be solved by reforming unions or teacher rights. No one is preventing a magical way to perfectly evaluate teacher performance; it's simply the case that we haven't found an ideal way to do so. As far as overhauling K-12 goes, what do you mean by that? There are constantly curriculum changes and new methods being integrated all the time, thanks to educational research. Yeah I wouldn't expect them to get hashed out there but less blind opposition to them. I'm not just talking about curriculum but a bottom up reform where we seriously consider changing the whole model. That and I didn't mean to imply they would get worked out merely by reforming the union itself. My general agreement is all the involved parties need to take a serious look at both teaching and policing and admit they need massive (not incremental) reform. That it is as, if not more important, than what's going on an ocean away in the Middle East. That we can't allow ourselves to go a single day more without forcing it to the front of our minds. And if any of the parties involved think they don't have serious problems they are intentionally hiding/glossing over they are in denial and it needs to stop yesterday. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46243 Posts
On November 26 2015 10:36 GreenHorizons wrote: Yeah I wouldn't expect them to get hashed out there but less blind opposition to them. I'm not just talking about curriculum but a bottom up reform where we seriously consider changing the whole model. That and I didn't mean to imply they would get worked out merely by reforming the union itself. My general agreement is all the involved parties need to take a serious look at both teaching and policing and admit they need massive (not incremental) reform. That it is as, if not more important, than what's going on an ocean away in the Middle East. That we can't allow ourselves to go a single day more without forcing it to the front of our minds. And if any of the parties involved think they don't have serious problems they are intentionally hiding/glossing over they are in denial and it needs to stop yesterday. Trust me, no group wants an accurate teacher evaluation process more than the teachers, but I don't think that that issue and the issue of curriculum reform are hindered by unions. I agree that there has to be education reform in this country, but those two points seem to have nothing to do with unions. I'm curious about union reform, since that was the claim originally made. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 26 2015 10:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I feel like what you just said is "Everything because nothing makes sense", which might be true but we'd need to have a conversation about individual issues and what's wrong with them. Can you give an example, please? Well, the reason GH's analogy is so APT is because the problem in both situations is that the bottom 10% causes the problem, but they are protected by the 90%. Only 37 police officers, 7 percent of sworn law enforcement personnel, accounted for more than one-third of all complaints. PoliceReplacing the bottom 5-8 percent of teachers with average teachers could move the U.S. near the top of international math and science rankings with a present value of $100 trillion. TeachersIn other words. Civil rights violations and the Blue Wall, are the analogy of bad teachers and Rubber Rooms. Specifically? What do you want examples of? Teacher's unions stacking school boards with preferred candidates, using union dues from taxpayer paid salaries...to then have favorable "opposition" when negotiating increases in the taxpayer paid salaries? The case where the Governor of Illinois tried to unionize home healthcare workers as a "legal" kickback to a union that campaigned on his behalf? That laws somehow give "highly trained" police greater leeway when using a gun than the (allegedly) less skilled public, when the opposite would be intuitively correct? What are you looking for with "specifics"? Edit: On November 26 2015 10:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Trust me, no group wants an accurate teacher evaluation process more than the teachers, but I don't think that that issue and the issue of curriculum reform are hindered by unions. I agree that there has to be education reform in this country, but those two points seem to have nothing to do with unions. I'm curious about union reform, since that was the claim originally made. Unions oppose all those things. Thats why it has to do with unions. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On November 26 2015 10:25 cLutZ wrote: All of the reforms. Public employee unions existing makes no sense, particularly with how much we understand about public choice theory nowadays. It is creating a state-sanctioned bargaining monopoly, who's very interests are against the state and the citizens of the state. Don't be an idiot. You know that public employee unions are being managed by a public service managing class. Or maybe you don't. The antagonism isn't between the public and public service employees so much as between workers and managers who often have diametrically opposed views. Pretending that the "tax paying public" would always align with technocratic managers who are often culled from private sector careers is factually inaccurate fantasy. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22487 Posts
On November 26 2015 20:32 oneofthem wrote: the union's logic is always something like absolute solidarity, rather than recognizing that the few bad apples are hugely detrimental to their position and range of obtainable goals. Sadly so, unions would do a lot more for their members if they helped weed out the bad apples. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
As much as they are supposed to be trusted and given power to over civilians much should be expected out of them. Mistakes by a civil servant with much power has the right to be punished in a different form than the terms of civilian law. I believe it is time for US to set up a type of "military court" that enforces much harsher punishments and much stricter regulations for police compared to civilians. Just like the military court, one should not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt against a civil servant that has been given power over the victim. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Republican presidential candidate Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) said in a video posted Tuesday that he believes people of faith should ignore laws that violate their religion. Rubio told the Christian Broadcasting Network that no law is "settled," making reference to Supreme Court decisions that legalized same-sex marriage. “In essence, if we are ever ordered by a government authority to personally violate and sin — violate God’s law and sin — if we’re ordered to stop preaching the Gospel, if we’re ordered to perform a same-sex marriage as someone presiding over it, we are called to ignore that," Rubio said. "We cannot to abide by that because government is compelling us to sin." “So when those two come into conflict, God’s rules always win,” he added. That rhetoric deviates a bit from when Rubio weighed in on defiant Kentucky county clerk Kim Davis, who was jailed because she refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, earlier this year. Rubio said in September that the clerk's office had the "governmental duty to carry out the law," but that there should be religious freedom protections for individuals working in the office. Source | ||
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