|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
A dead witness tells no tales.
Cameras do. And if you don't react fast enough, and that video doesn't magically disappear because all your other foul friends drilled the right screws, well.. You might find yourself wondering if "disabling" a person in this situation wouldn't have been the better idea. The US police certainly has the capability to do so, they choose not to.
edit: pretty damning btw is the simple fact that he was the only cop shooting. Not a single other one joined, which is generally what happens if your comrade starts shooting at a threat. No one considered him an immediate threat at that point, apart from one, who considered him that much of a threat that he had to empty his clip completely into him.
|
On November 25 2015 12:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 11:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 25 2015 11:13 Plansix wrote:The problem with police is nation wide and not limited to violence and shootings: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/11/police-seizing-more-money-than-ever.htmlThere needs to be some serious reform and rethinking of how we train and over see police. The story of the "officer just trying to do his job and protect people" needs to be mirrored in reality and not some thing the movies show us. It shocks me sometimes just how commercialized your law enforcement seems. Stories about asset seizures, red light cameras, corporate jails... Like, I don't understand, what did people think would happen when you give a public services the ability to generate money for themselves? The free market solves all. Did you hear? I have no idea, but this wouldn't be a problem if we had a functional congress.
Do you even know what a free market is? This is like the opposite of a free market: State sanctioned force to acquire property.
|
He meant "privatizing" the police force, allowing them to accumulate their own funds. They should have to give all seized assets to the state.
|
On November 25 2015 14:34 IgnE wrote:
He meant "privatizing" the police force, allowing them to accumulate their own funds. They should have to give all seized assets to the state.
that doesn't work so well when the state pressures the police to gain more revenue by seizing more stuff.
|
On November 25 2015 14:34 IgnE wrote:
He meant "privatizing" the police force, allowing them to accumulate their own funds. They should have to give all seized assets to the state.
You might think that, that's a perfectly reasonable thought. It still has nothing to do with the free market. More like, sanctioned Mafia protection racket.
|
Indeed. It is very important that the money from fines goes to neither the people who collect it nor the people who decide how much money to collect for what offense if you want a working system that uses fines to change behaviour instead of a protection racket.
Also, as i mention every time this happens (The fact that it happens so regularly should be a good indicator that something is really broken in the system), US police seems really scary to an outsider. When dealing with a german cop, i am pretty sure that i won't end up dead, while in the US that seems to happen quite often. It often seems as if some US cops are really just power-hungry bullies who will just shoot you if you don't submit to them immediately, which is pretty much the opposite of their job.
|
On November 25 2015 15:20 Simberto wrote:
Indeed. It is very important that the money from fines goes to neither the people who collect it nor the people who decide how much money to collect for what offense if you want a working system that uses fines to change behaviour instead of a protection racket.
Also, as i mention every time this happens (The fact that it happens so regularly should be a good indicator that something is really broken in the system), US police seems really scary to an outsider. When dealing with a german cop, i am pretty sure that i won't end up dead, while in the US that seems to happen quite often. It often seems as if some US cops are really just power-hungry bullies who will just shoot you if you don't submit to them immediately, which is pretty much the opposite of their job.
personal anecdotal story from myself: I've been to the US once with family when I was something around 16-17 years old. So we rented a car, dad was driving and at one point he drove past a stop-sign without stopping because no other car around and he didn't really care. So from behind we hear sirens from a police car, we stop, cop shows up and tells him to get out of the car. At that point we're laughing in the back of the car because my Dad was stupid enough for all this to happen.
So my Dad is pretty talkactive, gets out of the car, smalltalk about being tourists and being sorry but while doing so walks like 1-2 steps towards the police officer at which point he takes out his gun and points it at my dad and tells him to stop moving, which he does and nothing happens.
But obviously everyone's silent and terrified inside the car at that point. So yeah, that kind of stuck with me.
|
Anecdote from myself in a similar situation, but german (and a bit stupider).
Roughly 15 years ago when i was still in the military, i met with friends and we decided to go check out used cars (i was going to buy one). So far, so normal - it was 1am in the morning n(that's the stupid part). So we drove to the car lot, checked cars, which apparently scared the security guy there (we were 4) - so he called the police, which showed up minutes later.
Bit of back and forth, in the end, we were standing a bit away from the car, two cops watching us (they were checking our car, thinking we gonna steal the used ones), with a dog. At like -5 degrees celsius, our jackets in the car too. We were shaking, because we froze our ass' off, and what do you do if it's cold? You wobble, jump, shake and whatnot to somehow get warm. One of the policemen thought, that wasn't funny, especially because we turned around every now and then to check what the police was doing, and if we can get our jackets - so he threatened us to let his k9 strike if we wouldn't stop. Being an asshat in general, and you could tell that he enjoyed the power the badge gave him way too much. Turned out, that with that, he stepped over a line and was suspended for two weeks.
Now the funny part: we wouldn't even have thought about that, it was a female officer that approached us after the search, telling us that we should consider to file a complaint. Which we then did.
Maybe that gives people from the US a insight of why people are so flabbergasted every time the us police negatively pops up in the news.
|
On November 25 2015 14:18 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 12:35 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 11:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 25 2015 11:13 Plansix wrote:The problem with police is nation wide and not limited to violence and shootings: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/11/police-seizing-more-money-than-ever.htmlThere needs to be some serious reform and rethinking of how we train and over see police. The story of the "officer just trying to do his job and protect people" needs to be mirrored in reality and not some thing the movies show us. It shocks me sometimes just how commercialized your law enforcement seems. Stories about asset seizures, red light cameras, corporate jails... Like, I don't understand, what did people think would happen when you give a public services the ability to generate money for themselves? The free market solves all. Did you hear? I have no idea, but this wouldn't be a problem if we had a functional congress. Do you even know what a free market is? This is like the opposite of a free market: State sanctioned force to acquire property.
Do you even know what sarcasm or satire is? How many times do I need to mock people who misuse the term free market for you to catch on?
|
On November 25 2015 17:58 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 15:20 Simberto wrote:
Indeed. It is very important that the money from fines goes to neither the people who collect it nor the people who decide how much money to collect for what offense if you want a working system that uses fines to change behaviour instead of a protection racket.
Also, as i mention every time this happens (The fact that it happens so regularly should be a good indicator that something is really broken in the system), US police seems really scary to an outsider. When dealing with a german cop, i am pretty sure that i won't end up dead, while in the US that seems to happen quite often. It often seems as if some US cops are really just power-hungry bullies who will just shoot you if you don't submit to them immediately, which is pretty much the opposite of their job. personal anecdotal story from myself: I've been to the US once with family when I was something around 16-17 years old. So we rented a car, dad was driving and at one point he drove past a stop-sign without stopping because no other car around and he didn't really care. So from behind we hear sirens from a police car, we stop, cop shows up and tells him to get out of the car. At that point we're laughing in the back of the car because my Dad was stupid enough for all this to happen. So my Dad is pretty talkactive, gets out of the car, smalltalk about being tourists and being sorry but while doing so walks like 1-2 steps towards the police officer at which point he takes out his gun and points it at my dad and tells him to stop moving, which he does and nothing happens. But obviously everyone's silent and terrified inside the car at that point. So yeah, that kind of stuck with me.
|
On November 25 2015 17:58 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 15:20 Simberto wrote:
Indeed. It is very important that the money from fines goes to neither the people who collect it nor the people who decide how much money to collect for what offense if you want a working system that uses fines to change behaviour instead of a protection racket.
Also, as i mention every time this happens (The fact that it happens so regularly should be a good indicator that something is really broken in the system), US police seems really scary to an outsider. When dealing with a german cop, i am pretty sure that i won't end up dead, while in the US that seems to happen quite often. It often seems as if some US cops are really just power-hungry bullies who will just shoot you if you don't submit to them immediately, which is pretty much the opposite of their job. personal anecdotal story from myself: I've been to the US once with family when I was something around 16-17 years old. So we rented a car, dad was driving and at one point he drove past a stop-sign without stopping because no other car around and he didn't really care. So from behind we hear sirens from a police car, we stop, cop shows up and tells him to get out of the car. At that point we're laughing in the back of the car because my Dad was stupid enough for all this to happen. So my Dad is pretty talkactive, gets out of the car, smalltalk about being tourists and being sorry but while doing so walks like 1-2 steps towards the police officer at which point he takes out his gun and points it at my dad and tells him to stop moving, which he does and nothing happens. But obviously everyone's silent and terrified inside the car at that point. So yeah, that kind of stuck with me.
That happened.
|
When Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump spent millions of dollars on renovations to his golf course in Sterling, Virginia, perhaps his most off-the-wall addition was a historical marker commemorating a Civil War battle on site. But historians told The New York Times for a story published Tuesday that the battle Trump memorialized never happened.
After Trump bought the golf course, which the Times described as a "fixer-upper," he chopped down trees so golfers could see more of the Potomac River and graced the course with his brand name. But it apparently wasn't enough for the real estate mogul: he gave it a place in American history by installing a marker between the 14th and 15th holes with a plaque dubbing the spot "The River of Blood," according to the report.
“Many great American soldiers, both of the North and South, died at this spot,” the inscription read, according to the Times. “The casualties were so great that the water would turn red and thus became known as ‘The River of Blood.’”
Trump told a Times reporter that there were "numerous historians" who told him the golf course was called "The River of Blood," even though he couldn't remember their names.
Multiple historians told the Times that the marker was inconsistent with historical record. While Civil War battles did take place several miles away from Trump's golf course, none occurred on site, the historians said.
When the Times pressed Trump for evidence to support the "River of Blood" inscription, the billionaire responded: "Write your story the way you want to write it. You don’t have to talk to anybody. It doesn’t make any difference. But many people were shot. It makes sense.”
Source
|
On November 25 2015 11:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 11:09 Sermokala wrote:
But the ;problem from the other side has been a near refusal to do anything about it other then protest those very same "few bad apples" and "the system" at large. The way forward isn't a continuing of the same tactics that reinforce that wall between officers and the community but breaking it down and realizing that this very same community is the one that has and will always control and build the police department it wants.
For all the attention brought on the the issue in the past few decades what actual progress has been made when looking at this shooting in chicago. Reform is a lengthy and time consuming process and chicago is a poor city and has people that are demanding change now. The first step in that is the Police recognizing they have been murdering people and covering it up, and many local officials have been complacent or have even participated in the cover ups. Police need to admit they need a bottom up overhaul that will include some of them going to prison, many of them losing their job temporarily and a significant number of them being banned from being police in the future. Politicians need to stop covering for police too. Reform will be lengthy but police have been wholly unwilling to go beyond superficial changes while still doing things like this and until they are being regularly held accountable (without enormous public outcry) looking at the people protesting that their rights and humanity are being crapped on as if they aren't doing enough is frankly disturbing.
Good luck getting the big city police unions to admit to any of that. People have tried tiny changes to the education system and received hell for it. A part of the government that actually makes money being portrayed as the bad guys in a city in massive debt? Good luck getting politicians to get behind that.
The problem with what your saying and by extension why blm is worthless is that your completely ignoring reality and expecting things to just be better instead of trying to make it better. For all the damage the tea party has done at least that movement amounted to something. People will resign and be replaced by people facing the same problems and making the same decisions as before.
|
On November 25 2015 23:00 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 17:58 Toadesstern wrote:On November 25 2015 15:20 Simberto wrote:
Indeed. It is very important that the money from fines goes to neither the people who collect it nor the people who decide how much money to collect for what offense if you want a working system that uses fines to change behaviour instead of a protection racket.
Also, as i mention every time this happens (The fact that it happens so regularly should be a good indicator that something is really broken in the system), US police seems really scary to an outsider. When dealing with a german cop, i am pretty sure that i won't end up dead, while in the US that seems to happen quite often. It often seems as if some US cops are really just power-hungry bullies who will just shoot you if you don't submit to them immediately, which is pretty much the opposite of their job. personal anecdotal story from myself: I've been to the US once with family when I was something around 16-17 years old. So we rented a car, dad was driving and at one point he drove past a stop-sign without stopping because no other car around and he didn't really care. So from behind we hear sirens from a police car, we stop, cop shows up and tells him to get out of the car. At that point we're laughing in the back of the car because my Dad was stupid enough for all this to happen. So my Dad is pretty talkactive, gets out of the car, smalltalk about being tourists and being sorry but while doing so walks like 1-2 steps towards the police officer at which point he takes out his gun and points it at my dad and tells him to stop moving, which he does and nothing happens. But obviously everyone's silent and terrified inside the car at that point. So yeah, that kind of stuck with me. That happened.
If that isn't the cops reaction and your father has a knife and wants to kill the cop he's dead. That's a very real situation that happens and police are trained for. It's crazy from a foreign standpoint but it's the reality of america.
|
On November 26 2015 01:38 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 23:00 heliusx wrote:On November 25 2015 17:58 Toadesstern wrote:On November 25 2015 15:20 Simberto wrote:
Indeed. It is very important that the money from fines goes to neither the people who collect it nor the people who decide how much money to collect for what offense if you want a working system that uses fines to change behaviour instead of a protection racket.
Also, as i mention every time this happens (The fact that it happens so regularly should be a good indicator that something is really broken in the system), US police seems really scary to an outsider. When dealing with a german cop, i am pretty sure that i won't end up dead, while in the US that seems to happen quite often. It often seems as if some US cops are really just power-hungry bullies who will just shoot you if you don't submit to them immediately, which is pretty much the opposite of their job. personal anecdotal story from myself: I've been to the US once with family when I was something around 16-17 years old. So we rented a car, dad was driving and at one point he drove past a stop-sign without stopping because no other car around and he didn't really care. So from behind we hear sirens from a police car, we stop, cop shows up and tells him to get out of the car. At that point we're laughing in the back of the car because my Dad was stupid enough for all this to happen. So my Dad is pretty talkactive, gets out of the car, smalltalk about being tourists and being sorry but while doing so walks like 1-2 steps towards the police officer at which point he takes out his gun and points it at my dad and tells him to stop moving, which he does and nothing happens. But obviously everyone's silent and terrified inside the car at that point. So yeah, that kind of stuck with me. That happened. If that isn't the cops reaction and your father has a knife and wants to kill the cop he's dead. That's a very real situation that happens and police are trained for. It's crazy from a foreign standpoint but it's the reality of america.
And in every other nation in the world that gun never gets pulled.
When someone approaches you in a manner that is threatening you tell him to halt and get distance, you deescalate. You don't escalate the situation by putting a gun in his face.
|
On November 26 2015 01:38 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 23:00 heliusx wrote:On November 25 2015 17:58 Toadesstern wrote:On November 25 2015 15:20 Simberto wrote:
Indeed. It is very important that the money from fines goes to neither the people who collect it nor the people who decide how much money to collect for what offense if you want a working system that uses fines to change behaviour instead of a protection racket.
Also, as i mention every time this happens (The fact that it happens so regularly should be a good indicator that something is really broken in the system), US police seems really scary to an outsider. When dealing with a german cop, i am pretty sure that i won't end up dead, while in the US that seems to happen quite often. It often seems as if some US cops are really just power-hungry bullies who will just shoot you if you don't submit to them immediately, which is pretty much the opposite of their job. personal anecdotal story from myself: I've been to the US once with family when I was something around 16-17 years old. So we rented a car, dad was driving and at one point he drove past a stop-sign without stopping because no other car around and he didn't really care. So from behind we hear sirens from a police car, we stop, cop shows up and tells him to get out of the car. At that point we're laughing in the back of the car because my Dad was stupid enough for all this to happen. So my Dad is pretty talkactive, gets out of the car, smalltalk about being tourists and being sorry but while doing so walks like 1-2 steps towards the police officer at which point he takes out his gun and points it at my dad and tells him to stop moving, which he does and nothing happens. But obviously everyone's silent and terrified inside the car at that point. So yeah, that kind of stuck with me. That happened. If that isn't the cops reaction and your father has a knife and wants to kill the cop he's dead. That's a very real situation that happens and police are trained for. It's crazy from a foreign standpoint but it's the reality of america.
That officer skilled like 5 stages of escalation in that situation, including using the English language to ask the man to back up or stop. Or putting his hand on his gun and ordering the person to stop.
|
Crises bring out the best and worst in people, as has been demonstrated vividly this past week by the behavior of President Obama and GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump.
Obama showed his best face in Tuesday’s news conference with visiting French President François Hollande. Obama was cool and restrained, analytically clear, and appropriately apolitical in describing how the United States will work with France in combating the Islamic State. He avoided inflaming the delicate and potentially dangerous situation following the shoot-down of a Russian military jet by Turkey.
Perhaps most important, Obama embodied America’s best self by combating the panicky, anti-Muslim sentiment that’s loose in the country following the Paris attacks. In voicing the welcome to immigrants that’s chiseled on the Statue of Liberty, he reminded us where America’s real strength lies.
Obama has often misfired on Syria and the Islamic State. I wish he had been a more aggressive leader since this crisis began four years ago. I wish he hadn’t sounded petty and political last week in criticizing GOP politicians. But Tuesday he was a model of responsible leadership.
Now look at Trump’s behavior over the past few days. He has displayed a level of irresponsibility that borders on recklessness. This is a time when the essence of leadership is clarity and restraint — when even politicians should put aside their usual braggadocio and self-aggrandizement for the good of the country.
Trump has done the opposite. He appears to be inflaming the situation deliberately, to advance his presidential campaign. It’s rare that we see this level of demagoguery in U.S. politics, but it’s frightening. His divisive comments play so directly into the polarizing strategies of our terrorist adversaries — who want to foment Western-Muslim hatred — that a case can be made that he has put the country at greater risk.
Source
|
On November 25 2015 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 11:06 heliusx wrote:On November 25 2015 10:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2015 10:51 heliusx wrote:
How convenient, wierd ass noises cover the sound of the gunshots. Yeah if it weren't for the clouds of dust from rounds hitting the pavement you can bet there would be a BS story about when he did or didn't stop shooting. Has the autopsy been released? I left my laptop at work so I can barely see the puffs. Yes also a result of a FOIA request Source
Thanks, that was a really informative read. I think its past time we start making examples out of animals like this. Capital punishment for cops like this sounds good.
Check out what those city Marshalls did in Marksville, LA last month. Sick shit. One of them was fucking around with the man's gf and harassing him.
|
On November 26 2015 01:38 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 23:00 heliusx wrote:On November 25 2015 17:58 Toadesstern wrote:On November 25 2015 15:20 Simberto wrote:
Indeed. It is very important that the money from fines goes to neither the people who collect it nor the people who decide how much money to collect for what offense if you want a working system that uses fines to change behaviour instead of a protection racket.
Also, as i mention every time this happens (The fact that it happens so regularly should be a good indicator that something is really broken in the system), US police seems really scary to an outsider. When dealing with a german cop, i am pretty sure that i won't end up dead, while in the US that seems to happen quite often. It often seems as if some US cops are really just power-hungry bullies who will just shoot you if you don't submit to them immediately, which is pretty much the opposite of their job. personal anecdotal story from myself: I've been to the US once with family when I was something around 16-17 years old. So we rented a car, dad was driving and at one point he drove past a stop-sign without stopping because no other car around and he didn't really care. So from behind we hear sirens from a police car, we stop, cop shows up and tells him to get out of the car. At that point we're laughing in the back of the car because my Dad was stupid enough for all this to happen. So my Dad is pretty talkactive, gets out of the car, smalltalk about being tourists and being sorry but while doing so walks like 1-2 steps towards the police officer at which point he takes out his gun and points it at my dad and tells him to stop moving, which he does and nothing happens. But obviously everyone's silent and terrified inside the car at that point. So yeah, that kind of stuck with me. That happened. If that isn't the cops reaction and your father has a knife and wants to kill the cop he's dead. That's a very real situation that happens and police are trained for. It's crazy from a foreign standpoint but it's the reality of america.
And that shows why social trust in an armed populace isn't possible and why handing over the monopoly of force to the government is a good idea.
|
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has inadequate training that makes them barely better than the general populace.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
