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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
November 25 2015 18:09 GMT
#51341
On November 26 2015 02:50 Slaughter wrote:
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has PTSD from serving in a hostile population which makes them a danger to the general populace.

Fixed.
Who the hell thought waiving training for combat vets joining the police was a good idea.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
November 25 2015 18:11 GMT
#51342
On November 26 2015 03:09 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2015 02:50 Slaughter wrote:
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has PTSD from serving in a hostile population which makes them a danger to the general populace.

Fixed.
Who the hell thought waiving training for combat vets joining the police was a good idea.

The government. Specifically the Feds who continually need places to put vets after they grind them up.
Freeeeeeedom
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
November 25 2015 18:18 GMT
#51343
On November 26 2015 03:11 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2015 03:09 KwarK wrote:
On November 26 2015 02:50 Slaughter wrote:
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has PTSD from serving in a hostile population which makes them a danger to the general populace.

Fixed.
Who the hell thought waiving training for combat vets joining the police was a good idea.

The government. Specifically the Feds who continually need places to put vets after they grind them up.

Can we make them watch that scene in Battlestar Galactica where Adama explains that having the military be the police is a terrible idea? On repeat.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 25 2015 18:19 GMT
#51344
The bipartisan effort to overhaul the criminal justice system for drug offenders has hit a speed bump.

Some members of Congress are trying to tie those lighter punishments for drug defendants to a new bill that the Justice Department says would make it harder to prosecute a range of crimes from food safety to business fraud.

The plan, passed by voice vote by the House Judiciary Committee to little notice last week, would require prosecutors to prove guilt to a higher standard in many cases, by default.

Among those who object: Deputy U.S. Attorney General Sally Yates.

"It would end up meaning that some criminals would go free as a result, because we simply would not be able to meet that standard of proof," Yates told NPR in an interview. "If this proposal were to pass, it would provide cover for top-level executives, which is not something we think would be in the best interest of the American people."

The White House had a shorter response: "In the president's view, criminal-justice reform should only make the system better, not worse."

For supporters, including Judiciary Chair Rep. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., the measure is a common sense response to the huge number of criminal laws on the books.

"This is a very carefully crafted bill," Goodlatte said during a committee markup last week. "Its intent is ... to protect American citizens who did not know or have reason to know they were violating federal law."

Goodlatte calls that over-criminalization. And his committee has held a series of hearings on the issue, focusing attention on cases of fishermen who faced federal criminal penalties for paperwork violations, among others.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
November 25 2015 18:32 GMT
#51345
On November 26 2015 03:18 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2015 03:11 cLutZ wrote:
On November 26 2015 03:09 KwarK wrote:
On November 26 2015 02:50 Slaughter wrote:
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has PTSD from serving in a hostile population which makes them a danger to the general populace.

Fixed.
Who the hell thought waiving training for combat vets joining the police was a good idea.

The government. Specifically the Feds who continually need places to put vets after they grind them up.

Can we make them watch that scene in Battlestar Galactica where Adama explains that having the military be the police is a terrible idea? On repeat.

That's an 8th Amendment violation. No one should have to watch Battlestar Galactica.
Freeeeeeedom
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
November 25 2015 18:38 GMT
#51346
On November 26 2015 03:32 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2015 03:18 Plansix wrote:
On November 26 2015 03:11 cLutZ wrote:
On November 26 2015 03:09 KwarK wrote:
On November 26 2015 02:50 Slaughter wrote:
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has PTSD from serving in a hostile population which makes them a danger to the general populace.

Fixed.
Who the hell thought waiving training for combat vets joining the police was a good idea.

The government. Specifically the Feds who continually need places to put vets after they grind them up.

Can we make them watch that scene in Battlestar Galactica where Adama explains that having the military be the police is a terrible idea? On repeat.

That's an 8th Amendment violation. No one should have to watch Battlestar Galactica.

Harsh, but fair.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
November 25 2015 20:19 GMT
#51347
On November 26 2015 03:09 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2015 02:50 Slaughter wrote:
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has PTSD from serving in a hostile population which makes them a danger to the general populace.

Fixed.
Who the hell thought waiving training for combat vets joining the police was a good idea.


Wait.

This exists? Do we really have some sort of streamlined method for making it easier for veterans to be cops? I guess that explains our entire issue with police brutality, especially in the case of brown people.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-25 20:26:22
November 25 2015 20:24 GMT
#51348
On November 26 2015 05:19 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2015 03:09 KwarK wrote:
On November 26 2015 02:50 Slaughter wrote:
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has PTSD from serving in a hostile population which makes them a danger to the general populace.

Fixed.
Who the hell thought waiving training for combat vets joining the police was a good idea.


Wait.

This exists? Do we really have some sort of streamlined method for making it easier for veterans to be cops? I guess that explains our entire issue with police brutality, especially in the case of brown people.

http://cops.usdoj.gov/html/dispatch/06-2012/vets-to-cops.asp

The following are just a few examples of incentives offered by police departments throughout the country:

Streamlining or fast-tracking applications submitted by military veterans
Waiving education requirements based on training completed while in military service
Adding preference points to exam scores
Offering incentive pay for active members of the reserve or national guard components


From the Department of Justice itself.

Incidentally, in my city, which recently got a damning report from the DoJ regarding systematic police brutality, there is only a 40 hour refresher course to switch from military police to civilian police. One week training.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
November 25 2015 20:40 GMT
#51349
On November 26 2015 05:24 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2015 05:19 Mohdoo wrote:
On November 26 2015 03:09 KwarK wrote:
On November 26 2015 02:50 Slaughter wrote:
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has PTSD from serving in a hostile population which makes them a danger to the general populace.

Fixed.
Who the hell thought waiving training for combat vets joining the police was a good idea.


Wait.

This exists? Do we really have some sort of streamlined method for making it easier for veterans to be cops? I guess that explains our entire issue with police brutality, especially in the case of brown people.

http://cops.usdoj.gov/html/dispatch/06-2012/vets-to-cops.asp

Show nested quote +
The following are just a few examples of incentives offered by police departments throughout the country:

Streamlining or fast-tracking applications submitted by military veterans
Waiving education requirements based on training completed while in military service
Adding preference points to exam scores
Offering incentive pay for active members of the reserve or national guard components


From the Department of Justice itself.

Incidentally, in my city, which recently got a damning report from the DoJ regarding systematic police brutality, there is only a 40 hour refresher course to switch from military police to civilian police. One week training.


That is so, so, so misguided and awful. I commend the troops and appreciate that they somehow decided it was a good idea to do what they do, but they are not people I want holding guns in our country. The prevalence of PTSD as well as the general kinda folk I see enroll in the military...nope. No thank you. Sure, have health insurance and some kinda benefits and whatnot for putting your time in, but diminishing the filtering process for them protecting us here is a terrible mistake. You can't just pretend these are stellar, emotionally intact people because they did something heroic.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-25 21:00:12
November 25 2015 20:44 GMT
#51350
On November 26 2015 01:35 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2015 11:19 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 25 2015 11:09 Sermokala wrote:
But the ;problem from the other side has been a near refusal to do anything about it other then protest those very same "few bad apples" and "the system" at large. The way forward isn't a continuing of the same tactics that reinforce that wall between officers and the community but breaking it down and realizing that this very same community is the one that has and will always control and build the police department it wants.

For all the attention brought on the the issue in the past few decades what actual progress has been made when looking at this shooting in chicago. Reform is a lengthy and time consuming process and chicago is a poor city and has people that are demanding change now.


The first step in that is the Police recognizing they have been murdering people and covering it up, and many local officials have been complacent or have even participated in the cover ups.

Police need to admit they need a bottom up overhaul that will include some of them going to prison, many of them losing their job temporarily and a significant number of them being banned from being police in the future.

Politicians need to stop covering for police too.

Reform will be lengthy but police have been wholly unwilling to go beyond superficial changes while still doing things like this and until they are being regularly held accountable (without enormous public outcry) looking at the people protesting that their rights and humanity are being crapped on as if they aren't doing enough is frankly disturbing.

Good luck getting the big city police unions to admit to any of that. People have tried tiny changes to the education system and received hell for it. A part of the government that actually makes money being portrayed as the bad guys in a city in massive debt? Good luck getting politicians to get behind that.

The problem with what your saying and by extension why blm is worthless is that your completely ignoring reality and expecting things to just be better instead of trying to make it better. For all the damage the tea party has done at least that movement amounted to something. People will resign and be replaced by people facing the same problems and making the same decisions as before.


No one is "just expecting things to just be better". What's "worthless" are comments like yours which while being profoundly disrespectful are also disingenuous. Without BLM these stories wouldn't be getting the attention they are and we would still have the same typical folks pulling out every excuse possible for corrupt police, denying it's a systemic problem with fatal consequences.

As a result of a concerted effort and heightened awareness there are more cops finally being held responsible for their actions (even if the process is still slow and many still get off in the end). But it's gotten a lot harder to play off the statistically improbable outcomes of police getting arrested, going to trial, and being convicted as just coincidence.

We can't expect solutions until people are willing to accept what the problem is. You are right that police and politicians at this point are still in denial while people are murdered in the street.

In February, Kalven obtained a copy of McDonald’s autopsy, which contradicted the official story that McDonald had died of a single gunshot to the chest. In fact, he’d been shot 16 times—as Van Dyke unloaded his service revolver, execution style—while McDonald lay on the ground.

The next month, the City Council approved a $5 million settlement with McDonald’s family, whose attorneys had obtained the video. They said it showed McDonald walking away from police at the time of the shooting, contradicting the police story that he was threatening or had “lunged at” cops. The settlement included a provision keeping the video confidential.

“The real issue here is, this terrible thing happened, how did our governmental institutions respond?” Kalven said. “And from everything we’ve learned, compulsively at every level, from the cops on the scene to the highest levels of government, they responded by circling the wagons and by fabricating a narrative that they knew was completely false.” To him this response is “part of a systemic problem” and preserves “the underlying conditions that allow abuse and shield abuse.”

In April, the Chicago Tribune revealed Van Dyke’s name and his history of civilian complaints—including several brutality complaints, one of which cost the city $500,000 in a civil lawsuit—none of which resulted in any disciplinary action. In May, Carol Marin reported that video from a security camera at a Burger King on the scene had apparently been deleted by police in the hours after the shooting.

“This case shows the operation of the code of silence in the Chicago Police Department,” said Futterman. “From the very start you have officers and detectives conspiring to cover up the story. The question is, why are they not being charged?”


Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 25 2015 21:21 GMT
#51351
i have higher confidence in our veterans. it's okay to have ex-military in the police force as long as proper training is given, along with functional internal disciplinary process. latter is lacking in these problematic districts and former is lacking in general.

We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12078 Posts
November 25 2015 21:23 GMT
#51352
On November 26 2015 05:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2015 05:24 KwarK wrote:
On November 26 2015 05:19 Mohdoo wrote:
On November 26 2015 03:09 KwarK wrote:
On November 26 2015 02:50 Slaughter wrote:
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has PTSD from serving in a hostile population which makes them a danger to the general populace.

Fixed.
Who the hell thought waiving training for combat vets joining the police was a good idea.


Wait.

This exists? Do we really have some sort of streamlined method for making it easier for veterans to be cops? I guess that explains our entire issue with police brutality, especially in the case of brown people.

http://cops.usdoj.gov/html/dispatch/06-2012/vets-to-cops.asp

The following are just a few examples of incentives offered by police departments throughout the country:

Streamlining or fast-tracking applications submitted by military veterans
Waiving education requirements based on training completed while in military service
Adding preference points to exam scores
Offering incentive pay for active members of the reserve or national guard components


From the Department of Justice itself.

Incidentally, in my city, which recently got a damning report from the DoJ regarding systematic police brutality, there is only a 40 hour refresher course to switch from military police to civilian police. One week training.


That is so, so, so misguided and awful. I commend the troops and appreciate that they somehow decided it was a good idea to do what they do, but they are not people I want holding guns in our country. The prevalence of PTSD as well as the general kinda folk I see enroll in the military...nope. No thank you. Sure, have health insurance and some kinda benefits and whatnot for putting your time in, but diminishing the filtering process for them protecting us here is a terrible mistake. You can't just pretend these are stellar, emotionally intact people because they did something heroic.


There appears to be a large amount of people who believe that there is no major difference between police and military. After all, both run around in uniforms and with guns. This is obviously utterly stupid, but the notion still persists.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
November 25 2015 21:28 GMT
#51353
On November 26 2015 06:21 oneofthem wrote:
i have higher confidence in our veterans. it's okay to have ex-military in the police force as long as proper training is given, along with functional internal disciplinary process. latter is lacking in these problematic districts and former is lacking in general.



The thing with the veterans are that they need professional mental health services to deal with the all too frequent cases of PTSD and instead we are giving them a gun a badge and a week of training and telling them to work it out on the streets.

Though anyone who has been in both the police and military will tell you that the military would never let them get away with half the stuff they do daily on the streets, even in a country full of enemy combatants let alone civilians they are charged with protecting and serving.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
MattBarry
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4006 Posts
November 25 2015 21:30 GMT
#51354
What's wrong with former military personnel in the police? The military has much stricter rules for how you treat suspects and prisoners. I've never felt safer in New Orleans than when the National Guard was policing instead of the impotent, corrupt, assholes in the NOPD
Platinum Support GOD
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-25 21:35:54
November 25 2015 21:35 GMT
#51355
On November 26 2015 06:30 MattBarry wrote:
What's wrong with former military personnel in the police? The military has much stricter rules for how you treat suspects and prisoners. I've never felt safer in New Orleans than when the National Guard was policing instead of the impotent, corrupt, assholes in the NOPD


National guard would be preferable to former combat troops (when there used to be a difference). It's not military themselves that's the problem it's that rather than get help for PTSD (or repressed anger due to strict ROE's) they just get put out on the street with increased power and decreased supervision or fear of consequence and sometimes quite severe personal problems.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-25 21:54:25
November 25 2015 21:43 GMT
#51356
given the large pool of veterans and the pretty stable or shrinking budget of police departments i don't see this transformative invasion of trigger happy vets as plausible in general. if anything the heightened competition for a job that is probably familiar to ex-military would make the hires more qualified, i.e. better trained at police academies and such. also looking at their application form, a very extensive medical history is required as well as combat logs etc. it would shock me if they do not weed out PTSD patients during the process.

i don't buy this idea that there are thousands of police jobs waiting for veterans with minimal training.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
November 25 2015 21:56 GMT
#51357
On November 26 2015 06:43 oneofthem wrote:
given the large pool of veterans and the pretty stable or shrinking budget of police departments i don't see this transformative invasion of trigger happy vets as plausible in general. if anything the heightened competition for a job that is probably familiar to ex-military would make the hires more qualified, i.e. better trained at police academies and such. also looking at their application form, a very extensive medical history is required as well as combat logs etc. it would shock me if they do not weed out PTSD patients during the process.

i don't buy this idea that there are thousands of police jobs waiting for veterans with minimal training.

Regardless of mental health, a 30 hour training is woefully inadequate to teach a soldier how to be a proper policemen. Its a little more then knowing which end of the gun to use.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
November 25 2015 22:01 GMT
#51358
On November 26 2015 06:30 MattBarry wrote:
What's wrong with former military personnel in the police? The military has much stricter rules for how you treat suspects and prisoners. I've never felt safer in New Orleans than when the National Guard was policing instead of the impotent, corrupt, assholes in the NOPD


PTSD and the "us vs them" mentality that develops when you wear a uniform in a combat situation. This is well documented in psychiatric literature. The long story short is:

1. Person goes off to war
2. Person wears a uniform and engages in combat many times in an "us vs them" mentality
3. People they are fighting are often not even wearing some kinda uniform of their own, even some random woman could be a suicide bomber
4. Person returns to the US and puts on yet another combat uniform, this time a police uniform
5. Person is somewhat snapped back into the mindset they had in war and unintentionally somewhat views civilians here the same way they viewed civilians in Iraq or whatever

As much as I appreciate what veterans do, we need to recognize that we take HORRIBLE care of them emotionally/psychologically. As such, they should have *extra* psychiatric evaluation, not less.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 25 2015 22:08 GMT
#51359
On November 26 2015 03:09 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2015 02:50 Slaughter wrote:
Doesn't help when a large chunk of the government institution handling that force has PTSD from serving in a hostile population which makes them a danger to the general populace.

Fixed.
Who the hell thought waiving training for combat vets joining the police was a good idea.

Lots of people - when they think with their hearts instead of their heads.

A lot of government is set up that way. What will make voters feel good rather than what will work effectively.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5082 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-25 22:16:14
November 25 2015 22:15 GMT
#51360
Did I miss some stats on this? What is the "police violence rate" for former military police officers vs civilians?
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
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Stake Ranked Episode 6
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TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
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