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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 238

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
May 16 2013 06:55 GMT
#4741
On May 16 2013 15:17 Danglars wrote:
If you want more information on why disclosure of private tax returns to unauthorized parties is against the law, please see:
Internal Revenue Code Section 1603

For the statements to the applications for 501(c) pending applications, that would be Section 6801(b)(3) (asking for facebook/emails primarily). I might also add here that subjecting certain groups to undue scrutiny based on political beliefs violates the Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment. Let me know if you have a problem with the IRS's statement of
Show nested quote +
Under no circumstances will the Internal Revenue Service tolerate discrimination by its employees, grantees, contractors, and/or subcontractors. NO ONE shall be excluded from participating in, be denied the benefits of, or be subject to discrimination because of: race, color, sex, national origin, disability, reprisal, or age in programs or activities funded by the Department of Treasury.
If you truly believe that releasing confidential records on partisan grounds is in keeping with the law, you may pore through the rest of the internal revenue code.

If you have need of additional information on why lying in written testimony to the judiciary committee is breaking the law or the matter of first amendment rights violations (approving left-leaning group's applications while delaying others with select criteria), do some more searching and you'll find them.

As an interesting side note, Holder was found in criminal and civil contempt of congress for failure to provide documents during the Fast and Furious scandal. That was last year and he emerged virtually unscathed.

I'm asking where you're getting that confidential tax records were released.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
May 16 2013 11:07 GMT
#4742
On May 16 2013 15:17 Danglars wrote:
If you want more information on why disclosure of private tax returns to unauthorized parties is against the law, please see:
Internal Revenue Code Section 1603

For the statements to the applications for 501(c) pending applications, that would be Section 6801(b)(3) (asking for facebook/emails primarily). I might also add here that subjecting certain groups to undue scrutiny based on political beliefs violates the Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment. Let me know if you have a problem with the IRS's statement of
Show nested quote +
Under no circumstances will the Internal Revenue Service tolerate discrimination by its employees, grantees, contractors, and/or subcontractors. NO ONE shall be excluded from participating in, be denied the benefits of, or be subject to discrimination because of: race, color, sex, national origin, disability, reprisal, or age in programs or activities funded by the Department of Treasury.
If you truly believe that releasing confidential records on partisan grounds is in keeping with the law, you may pore through the rest of the internal revenue code.

If you have need of additional information on why lying in written testimony to the judiciary committee is breaking the law or the matter of first amendment rights violations (approving left-leaning group's applications while delaying others with select criteria), do some more searching and you'll find them.

As an interesting side note, Holder was found in criminal and civil contempt of congress for failure to provide documents during the Fast and Furious scandal. That was last year and he emerged virtually unscathed.

Where has the IRS leaked anything? And isn't discrimination (if it can even be considered that) a civil, as opposed to criminal, matter?

Many people have been sued for sexual or religious or political discrimination, but as far as I can tell, no one has been charged with the crime of sexual or religious or political discrimination.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 13:51:48
May 16 2013 13:04 GMT
#4743
It looks like the IRS issue is slowly shifting.

The IRS apparently scrutinized both progressive and conservative groups with the undue burden, though fewer progressive groups (possibly because far more conservative groups filed, though they haven't released that data). It's likely that will come out during whatever investigation occurs.

The head of the IRS is now stepping down. This article has a pretty good timeline breakdown on events if anyone is curious and wants to see how the issue developed.

The only official sources (Miller and Lerner) are saying that no one in the White House knew, with Lerner (the seemingly less informed one) saying it was mostly low level employees at the IRS going rogue and Miller contending the new guidelines were too harsh.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 14:14:27
May 16 2013 13:48 GMT
#4744
I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the IRS scandal. While I had earlier pointed out that there were some questions that the IRS asked that were seemingly outrageous, the notion of legitimately scrutinizing these political advocacy groups masquerading as "social welfare" groups is a perfectly valid exercise and should be continued with greater rigor. It should not be done in a way that is biased against conservatives, and it should go after the big players, like the super PACs instead of small fish. The fact that a group can seemingly get tax exemption if 49%, but not 51%, of their activity is political advocacy is outrageous.

Obama has a chance to go on the offensive here. He should press Congress to tackle this issue. To do so requires passing a law that either abolishes this dumb tax exemption and bypasses the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling that has led to an explosion of these groups, or at the very least clearly articulates to whom this exemption applies to.

He should argue that firing IRS employees (which should be done if wrongdoing is proven), or even prosecuting them doesn't fix the underlying cause which is that the law is so vague as to be impractical to implement.

Lastly, we should also consider the fact that tea partiers promote essentially a "tax = slavery" platform, so they would possibly want to avoid paying taxes more so than the average taxpayer. Scrutinizing them to some increased extent, within legality, could be viewed as a form of profiling that may increase operational efficiency.
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
May 16 2013 14:21 GMT
#4745
On May 15 2013 00:24 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2013 00:01 coverpunch wrote:
On May 14 2013 23:09 KwarK wrote:
On May 14 2013 14:56 Sermokala wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/13/opinion/borger-obama-benghazi-truth/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

Pretty crazy bengazi story by cnn of all places.

And, as Kessler also points out, the internal Accountability Review Board, in its investigation, tiptoed around the delicate matter: The U.S. Special Mission in Benghazi, it said, "was never a consulate and never formally notified to the Libyan government." In other words, this was a hit on a CIA outpost, resulting in the death of an ambassador who happened to be there at the time.


All in all its a pretty nice take on a story thats only relevant because of the spin put on it initially and the spin put on it to make it a story.

Sean Smith, a man who died in that attack, was not CIA. We know this because he spent most of his time playing EVE Online with a bunch of guys from something awful, laughing on jabber with them, acting as their alliance chief diplomat and generally being a cool bro. This whole CIA thing was an absurd fantasy in the mind of Glenn Beck, the guy was one of our own. It'd be akin to claiming that I was CIA.
http://themittani.com/media/glenn-beck-goonswarm-cia-front

Nobody ever said Sean Smith was CIA. But the official reports (which are linked in the WaPo article) say the State Department was using the facility as a temporary mission while it was normally occupied by an unnamed agency, which is government-speak for the CIA. As Kessler also points out, it explains why the administration might be very reluctant to discuss the context of Benghazi in detail, of what exactly was going on at the facility before the attack.

Glenn Beck stated that both Sean Smith and the goonswarm eve alliance were part of the CIA. That when Sean wrote to his friends in goonswarm leadership about his day he was really updating them on his situation because they're all CIA and eve online is how they communicate. Either this is one of the more absurd cases of a stopped clock being right twice a day or, and much more likely, Beck's insanity has shaped the narrative and people who know how stupid the narrative is aren't being heard.

That's not what he is saying. I don't necessarily believe his "alternate" story for what happened, but don't misrepresent his point.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42685 Posts
May 16 2013 14:25 GMT
#4746
On May 16 2013 23:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2013 00:24 KwarK wrote:
On May 15 2013 00:01 coverpunch wrote:
On May 14 2013 23:09 KwarK wrote:
On May 14 2013 14:56 Sermokala wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/13/opinion/borger-obama-benghazi-truth/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

Pretty crazy bengazi story by cnn of all places.

And, as Kessler also points out, the internal Accountability Review Board, in its investigation, tiptoed around the delicate matter: The U.S. Special Mission in Benghazi, it said, "was never a consulate and never formally notified to the Libyan government." In other words, this was a hit on a CIA outpost, resulting in the death of an ambassador who happened to be there at the time.


All in all its a pretty nice take on a story thats only relevant because of the spin put on it initially and the spin put on it to make it a story.

Sean Smith, a man who died in that attack, was not CIA. We know this because he spent most of his time playing EVE Online with a bunch of guys from something awful, laughing on jabber with them, acting as their alliance chief diplomat and generally being a cool bro. This whole CIA thing was an absurd fantasy in the mind of Glenn Beck, the guy was one of our own. It'd be akin to claiming that I was CIA.
http://themittani.com/media/glenn-beck-goonswarm-cia-front

Nobody ever said Sean Smith was CIA. But the official reports (which are linked in the WaPo article) say the State Department was using the facility as a temporary mission while it was normally occupied by an unnamed agency, which is government-speak for the CIA. As Kessler also points out, it explains why the administration might be very reluctant to discuss the context of Benghazi in detail, of what exactly was going on at the facility before the attack.

Glenn Beck stated that both Sean Smith and the goonswarm eve alliance were part of the CIA. That when Sean wrote to his friends in goonswarm leadership about his day he was really updating them on his situation because they're all CIA and eve online is how they communicate. Either this is one of the more absurd cases of a stopped clock being right twice a day or, and much more likely, Beck's insanity has shaped the narrative and people who know how stupid the narrative is aren't being heard.

That's not what he is saying. I don't necessarily believe his "alternate" story for what happened, but don't misrepresent his point.

He claimed that Sean Smith telling goons about shit going down was him trying to get a message to the CIA. For this to be true
a) the CIA need to have infiltrated the goonswarm eve online alliance at a fairly high level for him to have a reasonable expectation that they will get his message
b) he needs to have some reason to have a prearranged covert way of contacting the CIA

Glenn Beck the only explanation for social gaming is that they're all CIA. That was literally his point.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
May 16 2013 14:31 GMT
#4747
On May 16 2013 23:25 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 16 2013 23:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On May 15 2013 00:24 KwarK wrote:
On May 15 2013 00:01 coverpunch wrote:
On May 14 2013 23:09 KwarK wrote:
On May 14 2013 14:56 Sermokala wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/13/opinion/borger-obama-benghazi-truth/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

Pretty crazy bengazi story by cnn of all places.

And, as Kessler also points out, the internal Accountability Review Board, in its investigation, tiptoed around the delicate matter: The U.S. Special Mission in Benghazi, it said, "was never a consulate and never formally notified to the Libyan government." In other words, this was a hit on a CIA outpost, resulting in the death of an ambassador who happened to be there at the time.


All in all its a pretty nice take on a story thats only relevant because of the spin put on it initially and the spin put on it to make it a story.

Sean Smith, a man who died in that attack, was not CIA. We know this because he spent most of his time playing EVE Online with a bunch of guys from something awful, laughing on jabber with them, acting as their alliance chief diplomat and generally being a cool bro. This whole CIA thing was an absurd fantasy in the mind of Glenn Beck, the guy was one of our own. It'd be akin to claiming that I was CIA.
http://themittani.com/media/glenn-beck-goonswarm-cia-front

Nobody ever said Sean Smith was CIA. But the official reports (which are linked in the WaPo article) say the State Department was using the facility as a temporary mission while it was normally occupied by an unnamed agency, which is government-speak for the CIA. As Kessler also points out, it explains why the administration might be very reluctant to discuss the context of Benghazi in detail, of what exactly was going on at the facility before the attack.

Glenn Beck stated that both Sean Smith and the goonswarm eve alliance were part of the CIA. That when Sean wrote to his friends in goonswarm leadership about his day he was really updating them on his situation because they're all CIA and eve online is how they communicate. Either this is one of the more absurd cases of a stopped clock being right twice a day or, and much more likely, Beck's insanity has shaped the narrative and people who know how stupid the narrative is aren't being heard.

That's not what he is saying. I don't necessarily believe his "alternate" story for what happened, but don't misrepresent his point.

He claimed that Sean Smith telling goons about shit going down was him trying to get a message to the CIA. For this to be true
a) the CIA need to have infiltrated the goonswarm eve online alliance at a fairly high level for him to have a reasonable expectation that they will get his message
b) he needs to have some reason to have a prearranged covert way of contacting the CIA

Glenn Beck the only explanation for social gaming is that they're all CIA. That was literally his point.

No his point is that there are a lot of unanswered questions concerning Stevens and the CIA and what they were all doing there. The GoonSwarm point wasn't even the crux of his argument that Steven's was operating with/for the CIA and was assassinated for it. You're acting like he is basing the entire argument on him contacting his buddies online, when it's just a minor part of the whole. Again, I don't really buy into his version (though it is interesting how many inconsistencies exist in the official story) but that doesn't mean we should make shit up about what he's saying. His assertions on the GoonSwarm thing are the weak-point of his story, and where it starts to fall apart, but it's not even the central point.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
May 16 2013 16:01 GMT
#4748
On May 16 2013 22:48 paralleluniverse wrote:
I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the IRS scandal. While I had earlier pointed out that there were some questions that the IRS asked that were seemingly outrageous, the notion of legitimately scrutinizing these political advocacy groups masquerading as "social welfare" groups is a perfectly valid exercise and should be continued with greater rigor. It should not be done in a way that is biased against conservatives, and it should go after the big players, like the super PACs instead of small fish. The fact that a group can seemingly get tax exemption if 49%, but not 51%, of their activity is political advocacy is outrageous.

Obama has a chance to go on the offensive here. He should press Congress to tackle this issue. To do so requires passing a law that either abolishes this dumb tax exemption and bypasses the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling that has led to an explosion of these groups, or at the very least clearly articulates to whom this exemption applies to.

He should argue that firing IRS employees (which should be done if wrongdoing is proven), or even prosecuting them doesn't fix the underlying cause which is that the law is so vague as to be impractical to implement.

Lastly, we should also consider the fact that tea partiers promote essentially a "tax = slavery" platform, so they would possibly want to avoid paying taxes more so than the average taxpayer. Scrutinizing them to some increased extent, within legality, could be viewed as a form of profiling that may increase operational efficiency.

Taking a political stance against taxes is not the same as declaring an intent to evade taxes (break the law). The type of profiling you are suggesting would be a huge and horrible breach of power.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 16 2013 16:47 GMT
#4749
Okay, so I went looked to see if there were any statutes criminalizing the leaking or disclosure of IRS documents by IRS officials. Surprisingly, there are none. Given the potential for harm and abuse, I would think that's something that should be there.
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
May 16 2013 17:23 GMT
#4750
On May 16 2013 06:24 xDaunt wrote:
As someone who deposes and cross-examines people for a living, I love it when I get "I don't know" or " I don't remember" as an answer from hostile/opposing witnesses. Not only does it always look bad, but it gives me free reign to shape the narrative in the absence of contradictory testimony.


Mind elaborating on that please?
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 17:29:38
May 16 2013 17:27 GMT
#4751
On May 17 2013 01:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 16 2013 22:48 paralleluniverse wrote:
I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the IRS scandal. While I had earlier pointed out that there were some questions that the IRS asked that were seemingly outrageous, the notion of legitimately scrutinizing these political advocacy groups masquerading as "social welfare" groups is a perfectly valid exercise and should be continued with greater rigor. It should not be done in a way that is biased against conservatives, and it should go after the big players, like the super PACs instead of small fish. The fact that a group can seemingly get tax exemption if 49%, but not 51%, of their activity is political advocacy is outrageous.

Obama has a chance to go on the offensive here. He should press Congress to tackle this issue. To do so requires passing a law that either abolishes this dumb tax exemption and bypasses the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling that has led to an explosion of these groups, or at the very least clearly articulates to whom this exemption applies to.

He should argue that firing IRS employees (which should be done if wrongdoing is proven), or even prosecuting them doesn't fix the underlying cause which is that the law is so vague as to be impractical to implement.

Lastly, we should also consider the fact that tea partiers promote essentially a "tax = slavery" platform, so they would possibly want to avoid paying taxes more so than the average taxpayer. Scrutinizing them to some increased extent, within legality, could be viewed as a form of profiling that may increase operational efficiency.

Taking a political stance against taxes is not the same as declaring an intent to evade taxes (break the law). The type of profiling you are suggesting would be a huge and horrible breach of power.

Well, I did say as long as it's not illegal. And not too unreasonable. Taking a stance against taxes isn't tax evasion. But there could be a association. And if, say, a study or internal review shows that spending more effort on certain groups would increase efficiency, in the sense of increased correctness of the amount of tax collected per unit of work, then there is no reason not to do it, if it is legal. Increasing scrutiny on a particular group doesn't even necessarily mean flood them with paperwork. It could also mean, no extra paperwork for them, but more time looking at the paperwork for the IRS. All companies have finite resources, finding a way to optimize output for a given amount of resources is important for any company.

Part of the complaint here is that the amount of paperwork the IRS is flooding the tea party groups with makes it a nightmare for them to deal with the IRS. This is absolutely a legitimate complaint.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
May 16 2013 17:40 GMT
#4752
On May 17 2013 02:27 paralleluniverse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2013 01:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 16 2013 22:48 paralleluniverse wrote:
I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the IRS scandal. While I had earlier pointed out that there were some questions that the IRS asked that were seemingly outrageous, the notion of legitimately scrutinizing these political advocacy groups masquerading as "social welfare" groups is a perfectly valid exercise and should be continued with greater rigor. It should not be done in a way that is biased against conservatives, and it should go after the big players, like the super PACs instead of small fish. The fact that a group can seemingly get tax exemption if 49%, but not 51%, of their activity is political advocacy is outrageous.

Obama has a chance to go on the offensive here. He should press Congress to tackle this issue. To do so requires passing a law that either abolishes this dumb tax exemption and bypasses the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling that has led to an explosion of these groups, or at the very least clearly articulates to whom this exemption applies to.

He should argue that firing IRS employees (which should be done if wrongdoing is proven), or even prosecuting them doesn't fix the underlying cause which is that the law is so vague as to be impractical to implement.

Lastly, we should also consider the fact that tea partiers promote essentially a "tax = slavery" platform, so they would possibly want to avoid paying taxes more so than the average taxpayer. Scrutinizing them to some increased extent, within legality, could be viewed as a form of profiling that may increase operational efficiency.

Taking a political stance against taxes is not the same as declaring an intent to evade taxes (break the law). The type of profiling you are suggesting would be a huge and horrible breach of power.

Well, I did say as long as it's not illegal. And not too unreasonable. Taking a stance against taxes isn't tax evasion. But there could be a association. And if, say, a study or internal review shows that spending more effort on certain groups would increase efficiency, in the sense of increased correctness of the amount of tax collected per unit of work, then there is no reason not to do it, if it is legal. Increasing scrutiny on a particular group doesn't even necessarily mean flood them with paperwork. It could also mean, no extra paperwork for them, but more time looking at the paperwork for the IRS. All companies have finite resources, finding a way to optimize output for a given amount of resources is important for any company.

Part of the complaint here is that the amount of paperwork the IRS is flooding the tea party groups with makes it a nightmare for them to deal with the IRS. This is absolutely a legitimate complaint.



Soliciting the political affiliation of individuals (let alone specific group association) for tax purposes would be so incredibly paternalistic and abusable by whatever party is in power I can't see it ever happening, however much it might cut costs. Demanding member rosters from the groups would be similarly ridiculous.

Luckily, there's no evidence either happened in this case. It'll be interesting to read the investigation to see what exactly went on and if it does indeed get spun back to Citizens United. We're due for another controversy to fill the news cycle before too long, though-I'm betting on a sexting scandal, haven't had one of those for a while.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13927 Posts
May 16 2013 17:49 GMT
#4753
On May 17 2013 02:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2013 02:27 paralleluniverse wrote:
On May 17 2013 01:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 16 2013 22:48 paralleluniverse wrote:
I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the IRS scandal. While I had earlier pointed out that there were some questions that the IRS asked that were seemingly outrageous, the notion of legitimately scrutinizing these political advocacy groups masquerading as "social welfare" groups is a perfectly valid exercise and should be continued with greater rigor. It should not be done in a way that is biased against conservatives, and it should go after the big players, like the super PACs instead of small fish. The fact that a group can seemingly get tax exemption if 49%, but not 51%, of their activity is political advocacy is outrageous.

Obama has a chance to go on the offensive here. He should press Congress to tackle this issue. To do so requires passing a law that either abolishes this dumb tax exemption and bypasses the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling that has led to an explosion of these groups, or at the very least clearly articulates to whom this exemption applies to.

He should argue that firing IRS employees (which should be done if wrongdoing is proven), or even prosecuting them doesn't fix the underlying cause which is that the law is so vague as to be impractical to implement.

Lastly, we should also consider the fact that tea partiers promote essentially a "tax = slavery" platform, so they would possibly want to avoid paying taxes more so than the average taxpayer. Scrutinizing them to some increased extent, within legality, could be viewed as a form of profiling that may increase operational efficiency.

Taking a political stance against taxes is not the same as declaring an intent to evade taxes (break the law). The type of profiling you are suggesting would be a huge and horrible breach of power.

Well, I did say as long as it's not illegal. And not too unreasonable. Taking a stance against taxes isn't tax evasion. But there could be a association. And if, say, a study or internal review shows that spending more effort on certain groups would increase efficiency, in the sense of increased correctness of the amount of tax collected per unit of work, then there is no reason not to do it, if it is legal. Increasing scrutiny on a particular group doesn't even necessarily mean flood them with paperwork. It could also mean, no extra paperwork for them, but more time looking at the paperwork for the IRS. All companies have finite resources, finding a way to optimize output for a given amount of resources is important for any company.

Part of the complaint here is that the amount of paperwork the IRS is flooding the tea party groups with makes it a nightmare for them to deal with the IRS. This is absolutely a legitimate complaint.



Soliciting the political affiliation of individuals (let alone specific group association) for tax purposes would be so incredibly paternalistic and abusable by whatever party is in power I can't see it ever happening, however much it might cut costs. Demanding member rosters from the groups would be similarly ridiculous.

Luckily, there's no evidence either happened in this case. It'll be interesting to read the investigation to see what exactly went on and if it does indeed get spun back to Citizens United. We're due for another controversy to fill the news cycle before too long, though-I'm betting on a sexting scandal, haven't had one of those for a while.

Theres so many different crazy stories out there I wouldn't be surprised for whatever comes out. I've read stories from conservative organizations one that changed their name to "greenhouse solutions" or whatnot and got accepted in 3 weeks, another were 2 pro life organizations where told to provide a legal document with all of their staff members signatures that they wouldn't picket or protest planned parenthood and that they wouldn't get their application accepted until they did. Theres the story where the IRS seized 60 million medical records without a warrant, theres the story of the IRS director leaving in a month anyway. Theres a story of a guy being told to provide a list of all the people hes going to tell about the constitution in the inner city and all the people he has educated about the constitution in the inner city before getting accepted.

Theres a lot of crazy shit that might come out about this being true. Republicans are going to be milking this shit for an entire year and a half until the election.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
May 16 2013 17:54 GMT
#4754
On May 17 2013 02:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2013 02:27 paralleluniverse wrote:
On May 17 2013 01:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 16 2013 22:48 paralleluniverse wrote:
I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the IRS scandal. While I had earlier pointed out that there were some questions that the IRS asked that were seemingly outrageous, the notion of legitimately scrutinizing these political advocacy groups masquerading as "social welfare" groups is a perfectly valid exercise and should be continued with greater rigor. It should not be done in a way that is biased against conservatives, and it should go after the big players, like the super PACs instead of small fish. The fact that a group can seemingly get tax exemption if 49%, but not 51%, of their activity is political advocacy is outrageous.

Obama has a chance to go on the offensive here. He should press Congress to tackle this issue. To do so requires passing a law that either abolishes this dumb tax exemption and bypasses the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling that has led to an explosion of these groups, or at the very least clearly articulates to whom this exemption applies to.

He should argue that firing IRS employees (which should be done if wrongdoing is proven), or even prosecuting them doesn't fix the underlying cause which is that the law is so vague as to be impractical to implement.

Lastly, we should also consider the fact that tea partiers promote essentially a "tax = slavery" platform, so they would possibly want to avoid paying taxes more so than the average taxpayer. Scrutinizing them to some increased extent, within legality, could be viewed as a form of profiling that may increase operational efficiency.

Taking a political stance against taxes is not the same as declaring an intent to evade taxes (break the law). The type of profiling you are suggesting would be a huge and horrible breach of power.

Well, I did say as long as it's not illegal. And not too unreasonable. Taking a stance against taxes isn't tax evasion. But there could be a association. And if, say, a study or internal review shows that spending more effort on certain groups would increase efficiency, in the sense of increased correctness of the amount of tax collected per unit of work, then there is no reason not to do it, if it is legal. Increasing scrutiny on a particular group doesn't even necessarily mean flood them with paperwork. It could also mean, no extra paperwork for them, but more time looking at the paperwork for the IRS. All companies have finite resources, finding a way to optimize output for a given amount of resources is important for any company.

Part of the complaint here is that the amount of paperwork the IRS is flooding the tea party groups with makes it a nightmare for them to deal with the IRS. This is absolutely a legitimate complaint.



Soliciting the political affiliation of individuals (let alone specific group association) for tax purposes would be so incredibly paternalistic and abusable by whatever party is in power I can't see it ever happening, however much it might cut costs. Demanding member rosters from the groups would be similarly ridiculous.

Luckily, there's no evidence either happened in this case. It'll be interesting to read the investigation to see what exactly went on and if it does indeed get spun back to Citizens United. We're due for another controversy to fill the news cycle before too long, though-I'm betting on a sexting scandal, haven't had one of those for a while.

Hey man, don't worry. I've been mass texting my penis to every phone database I can get my hands on. Think of it as a DDoS, but with dicks.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 16 2013 17:57 GMT
#4755
On May 17 2013 02:23 JieXian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 16 2013 06:24 xDaunt wrote:
As someone who deposes and cross-examines people for a living, I love it when I get "I don't know" or " I don't remember" as an answer from hostile/opposing witnesses. Not only does it always look bad, but it gives me free reign to shape the narrative in the absence of contradictory testimony.


Mind elaborating on that please?

On what point specifically?
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 16 2013 17:57 GMT
#4756
On May 17 2013 02:54 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2013 02:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On May 17 2013 02:27 paralleluniverse wrote:
On May 17 2013 01:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 16 2013 22:48 paralleluniverse wrote:
I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the IRS scandal. While I had earlier pointed out that there were some questions that the IRS asked that were seemingly outrageous, the notion of legitimately scrutinizing these political advocacy groups masquerading as "social welfare" groups is a perfectly valid exercise and should be continued with greater rigor. It should not be done in a way that is biased against conservatives, and it should go after the big players, like the super PACs instead of small fish. The fact that a group can seemingly get tax exemption if 49%, but not 51%, of their activity is political advocacy is outrageous.

Obama has a chance to go on the offensive here. He should press Congress to tackle this issue. To do so requires passing a law that either abolishes this dumb tax exemption and bypasses the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling that has led to an explosion of these groups, or at the very least clearly articulates to whom this exemption applies to.

He should argue that firing IRS employees (which should be done if wrongdoing is proven), or even prosecuting them doesn't fix the underlying cause which is that the law is so vague as to be impractical to implement.

Lastly, we should also consider the fact that tea partiers promote essentially a "tax = slavery" platform, so they would possibly want to avoid paying taxes more so than the average taxpayer. Scrutinizing them to some increased extent, within legality, could be viewed as a form of profiling that may increase operational efficiency.

Taking a political stance against taxes is not the same as declaring an intent to evade taxes (break the law). The type of profiling you are suggesting would be a huge and horrible breach of power.

Well, I did say as long as it's not illegal. And not too unreasonable. Taking a stance against taxes isn't tax evasion. But there could be a association. And if, say, a study or internal review shows that spending more effort on certain groups would increase efficiency, in the sense of increased correctness of the amount of tax collected per unit of work, then there is no reason not to do it, if it is legal. Increasing scrutiny on a particular group doesn't even necessarily mean flood them with paperwork. It could also mean, no extra paperwork for them, but more time looking at the paperwork for the IRS. All companies have finite resources, finding a way to optimize output for a given amount of resources is important for any company.

Part of the complaint here is that the amount of paperwork the IRS is flooding the tea party groups with makes it a nightmare for them to deal with the IRS. This is absolutely a legitimate complaint.



Soliciting the political affiliation of individuals (let alone specific group association) for tax purposes would be so incredibly paternalistic and abusable by whatever party is in power I can't see it ever happening, however much it might cut costs. Demanding member rosters from the groups would be similarly ridiculous.

Luckily, there's no evidence either happened in this case. It'll be interesting to read the investigation to see what exactly went on and if it does indeed get spun back to Citizens United. We're due for another controversy to fill the news cycle before too long, though-I'm betting on a sexting scandal, haven't had one of those for a while.

Hey man, don't worry. I've been mass texting my penis to every phone database I can get my hands on. Think of it as a DDoS, but with dicks.

You're a true patriot!
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 18:08:57
May 16 2013 18:02 GMT
#4757
On May 17 2013 02:49 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2013 02:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On May 17 2013 02:27 paralleluniverse wrote:
On May 17 2013 01:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 16 2013 22:48 paralleluniverse wrote:
I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the IRS scandal. While I had earlier pointed out that there were some questions that the IRS asked that were seemingly outrageous, the notion of legitimately scrutinizing these political advocacy groups masquerading as "social welfare" groups is a perfectly valid exercise and should be continued with greater rigor. It should not be done in a way that is biased against conservatives, and it should go after the big players, like the super PACs instead of small fish. The fact that a group can seemingly get tax exemption if 49%, but not 51%, of their activity is political advocacy is outrageous.

Obama has a chance to go on the offensive here. He should press Congress to tackle this issue. To do so requires passing a law that either abolishes this dumb tax exemption and bypasses the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling that has led to an explosion of these groups, or at the very least clearly articulates to whom this exemption applies to.

He should argue that firing IRS employees (which should be done if wrongdoing is proven), or even prosecuting them doesn't fix the underlying cause which is that the law is so vague as to be impractical to implement.

Lastly, we should also consider the fact that tea partiers promote essentially a "tax = slavery" platform, so they would possibly want to avoid paying taxes more so than the average taxpayer. Scrutinizing them to some increased extent, within legality, could be viewed as a form of profiling that may increase operational efficiency.

Taking a political stance against taxes is not the same as declaring an intent to evade taxes (break the law). The type of profiling you are suggesting would be a huge and horrible breach of power.

Well, I did say as long as it's not illegal. And not too unreasonable. Taking a stance against taxes isn't tax evasion. But there could be a association. And if, say, a study or internal review shows that spending more effort on certain groups would increase efficiency, in the sense of increased correctness of the amount of tax collected per unit of work, then there is no reason not to do it, if it is legal. Increasing scrutiny on a particular group doesn't even necessarily mean flood them with paperwork. It could also mean, no extra paperwork for them, but more time looking at the paperwork for the IRS. All companies have finite resources, finding a way to optimize output for a given amount of resources is important for any company.

Part of the complaint here is that the amount of paperwork the IRS is flooding the tea party groups with makes it a nightmare for them to deal with the IRS. This is absolutely a legitimate complaint.



Soliciting the political affiliation of individuals (let alone specific group association) for tax purposes would be so incredibly paternalistic and abusable by whatever party is in power I can't see it ever happening, however much it might cut costs. Demanding member rosters from the groups would be similarly ridiculous.

Luckily, there's no evidence either happened in this case. It'll be interesting to read the investigation to see what exactly went on and if it does indeed get spun back to Citizens United. We're due for another controversy to fill the news cycle before too long, though-I'm betting on a sexting scandal, haven't had one of those for a while.

Theres so many different crazy stories out there I wouldn't be surprised for whatever comes out. I've read stories from conservative organizations one that changed their name to "greenhouse solutions" or whatnot and got accepted in 3 weeks, another were 2 pro life organizations where told to provide a legal document with all of their staff members signatures that they wouldn't picket or protest planned parenthood and that they wouldn't get their application accepted until they did. Theres the story where the IRS seized 60 million medical records without a warrant, theres the story of the IRS director leaving in a month anyway. Theres a story of a guy being told to provide a list of all the people hes going to tell about the constitution in the inner city and all the people he has educated about the constitution in the inner city before getting accepted.

Theres a lot of crazy shit that might come out about this being true. Republicans are going to be milking this shit for an entire year and a half until the election.


Yeah, but it'll lose traction with a lot of the news stations (the ones that already prefer the email seizure) once they start interviewing the progressive group that was the only one actually turned down. The new appointee will repent and promise change (Obama already reprimanded their actions and has been cited by everyone at the Agency as unlinked), at best you'll get a push for more effective oversight or downsizing the IRS which I think everyone agrees with so it's not as titillating. Maybe we'll finally get some bureaucratic reform.

Plus Democrats will spin it as the House's blocking of a real IRS director appointment detracting from the good governance of the agency. I think the right-wing media machine (which does exist as much as MSNBC acts as a left wing one) will ride it for a while for the viewers but it'll become a sub-story to something that they hope can really damage the Dems in '16. More Benghazi maybe, especially if Hillary makes a clear statement regarding running.

On May 17 2013 02:54 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2013 02:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On May 17 2013 02:27 paralleluniverse wrote:
On May 17 2013 01:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 16 2013 22:48 paralleluniverse wrote:
I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the IRS scandal. While I had earlier pointed out that there were some questions that the IRS asked that were seemingly outrageous, the notion of legitimately scrutinizing these political advocacy groups masquerading as "social welfare" groups is a perfectly valid exercise and should be continued with greater rigor. It should not be done in a way that is biased against conservatives, and it should go after the big players, like the super PACs instead of small fish. The fact that a group can seemingly get tax exemption if 49%, but not 51%, of their activity is political advocacy is outrageous.

Obama has a chance to go on the offensive here. He should press Congress to tackle this issue. To do so requires passing a law that either abolishes this dumb tax exemption and bypasses the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling that has led to an explosion of these groups, or at the very least clearly articulates to whom this exemption applies to.

He should argue that firing IRS employees (which should be done if wrongdoing is proven), or even prosecuting them doesn't fix the underlying cause which is that the law is so vague as to be impractical to implement.

Lastly, we should also consider the fact that tea partiers promote essentially a "tax = slavery" platform, so they would possibly want to avoid paying taxes more so than the average taxpayer. Scrutinizing them to some increased extent, within legality, could be viewed as a form of profiling that may increase operational efficiency.

Taking a political stance against taxes is not the same as declaring an intent to evade taxes (break the law). The type of profiling you are suggesting would be a huge and horrible breach of power.

Well, I did say as long as it's not illegal. And not too unreasonable. Taking a stance against taxes isn't tax evasion. But there could be a association. And if, say, a study or internal review shows that spending more effort on certain groups would increase efficiency, in the sense of increased correctness of the amount of tax collected per unit of work, then there is no reason not to do it, if it is legal. Increasing scrutiny on a particular group doesn't even necessarily mean flood them with paperwork. It could also mean, no extra paperwork for them, but more time looking at the paperwork for the IRS. All companies have finite resources, finding a way to optimize output for a given amount of resources is important for any company.

Part of the complaint here is that the amount of paperwork the IRS is flooding the tea party groups with makes it a nightmare for them to deal with the IRS. This is absolutely a legitimate complaint.



Soliciting the political affiliation of individuals (let alone specific group association) for tax purposes would be so incredibly paternalistic and abusable by whatever party is in power I can't see it ever happening, however much it might cut costs. Demanding member rosters from the groups would be similarly ridiculous.

Luckily, there's no evidence either happened in this case. It'll be interesting to read the investigation to see what exactly went on and if it does indeed get spun back to Citizens United. We're due for another controversy to fill the news cycle before too long, though-I'm betting on a sexting scandal, haven't had one of those for a while.

Hey man, don't worry. I've been mass texting my penis to every phone database I can get my hands on. Think of it as a DDoS, but with dicks.


I support this only if your phone has the same number as Clinton's. Even better if you're sending them to Mitt Romney.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
May 16 2013 18:33 GMT
#4758
On May 17 2013 02:27 paralleluniverse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2013 01:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 16 2013 22:48 paralleluniverse wrote:
I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the IRS scandal. While I had earlier pointed out that there were some questions that the IRS asked that were seemingly outrageous, the notion of legitimately scrutinizing these political advocacy groups masquerading as "social welfare" groups is a perfectly valid exercise and should be continued with greater rigor. It should not be done in a way that is biased against conservatives, and it should go after the big players, like the super PACs instead of small fish. The fact that a group can seemingly get tax exemption if 49%, but not 51%, of their activity is political advocacy is outrageous.

Obama has a chance to go on the offensive here. He should press Congress to tackle this issue. To do so requires passing a law that either abolishes this dumb tax exemption and bypasses the Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling that has led to an explosion of these groups, or at the very least clearly articulates to whom this exemption applies to.

He should argue that firing IRS employees (which should be done if wrongdoing is proven), or even prosecuting them doesn't fix the underlying cause which is that the law is so vague as to be impractical to implement.

Lastly, we should also consider the fact that tea partiers promote essentially a "tax = slavery" platform, so they would possibly want to avoid paying taxes more so than the average taxpayer. Scrutinizing them to some increased extent, within legality, could be viewed as a form of profiling that may increase operational efficiency.

Taking a political stance against taxes is not the same as declaring an intent to evade taxes (break the law). The type of profiling you are suggesting would be a huge and horrible breach of power.

Well, I did say as long as it's not illegal. And not too unreasonable. Taking a stance against taxes isn't tax evasion. But there could be a association. And if, say, a study or internal review shows that spending more effort on certain groups would increase efficiency, in the sense of increased correctness of the amount of tax collected per unit of work, then there is no reason not to do it, if it is legal. Increasing scrutiny on a particular group doesn't even necessarily mean flood them with paperwork. It could also mean, no extra paperwork for them, but more time looking at the paperwork for the IRS. All companies have finite resources, finding a way to optimize output for a given amount of resources is important for any company.

Part of the complaint here is that the amount of paperwork the IRS is flooding the tea party groups with makes it a nightmare for them to deal with the IRS. This is absolutely a legitimate complaint.

The IRS could do something like that but they'd need to tread very carefully. Targeting based on political identity would be a problem - too much potential to punish dissent. Targeting based on tax structure (ex. all super PAC's... or whatever) would be more reasonable.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18826 Posts
May 16 2013 19:15 GMT
#4759
For all the talk of scandal regarding the IRS targeting groups named “Tea Party” or “Patriot,” it’s not hard to draw an additional lesson from the facts of the case — a pattern that follows the well-worn model of the modern political age: Benefits flow to the rich and the well-connected, with pain for the rest.

The Cincinnati incident, which has already cost the job of Acting IRS Commissioner Steven Miller (who was not the commissioner when the scandal occurred – this would be like the State Department reacting to the tragedy at the Libyan consulate by firing a low-level bureaucrat coincidentally named Ben Ghazi), is definitely scandalous in its own right. As the Treasury Inspector General report details, it’s completely inappropriate for the IRS to burden any subset with invasive information requests based merely on keywords or policy positions.

But let’s consider how this played out. The New York Times’ Nick Confessore reported this week that the groups applying for tax-exempt 501(c)(4) status and singled out for inspection were primarily small, local conservative (and a few liberal) organizations, who barely spent any money on elections. Meanwhile, groups like Karl Rove’s Crossroads GPS and the liberal Obama-supporting Priorities USA, who did the lion’s share of campaign spending among these types of organizations, not only faced no such examination, but survived multiple efforts by campaign finance reform advocates to get the IRS to revoke their tax-exempt status because of their voluminous political activities.

Why would this be the case? First of all, a 501(c)(4) group need not apply with the IRS to prove its tax-exempt status; it can simply self-declare, avoiding an initial review process. The IRS encourages groups to file applications, but those with the resources to hire a smart tax lawyer know they aren’t required to go through the trouble. Needless to say, most local Tea Party groups didn’t have that kind of professional expertise. So generally speaking, the small fish revealed themselves to the IRS initially, and since Congress requires reviews of every application for tax-exempt status, these groups become the low-hanging fruit, prone to investigation.

Furthermore, Tea Party groups did themselves no favors by filling out the applications in an amateurish manner, according to Pulitzer Prize-winning former reporter for the New York Times and columnist at TaxAnalysts.com David Cay Johnston. “It’s like applying for a mortgage,” Johnston told Salon. “If you write it out wrong, you’re going to get flagged. And there are examples of these groups saying they’re not political and then saying their goal is to influence legislation.”

Crossroads GPS apparently did file an application for tax-exempt status, but it had very smart tax form preparers who knew how to exploit the ambiguites in the 501(c)(4) statute. The tax code says these groups must “exclusively” engage in the vague-sounding “social welfare activity,” which suggests a ban on political spending. But the IRS subsequently interpreted this to mean that groups fall within the rule as long as they don’t “primarily engage” in political activities. Since the Citizens United ruling, which heralded the growth of the 501(c)(4) sector because corporations could donate to these tax-exempt groups without disclosing their donations, savvier groups have simply worked to stay a hair under 50 percent with their campaign spending, putting them in the clear. David Cay Johnston cited this as a major problem with how the IRS defines social welfare organizations. He said, “Is there any married person in America who doesn’t understand exclusivity? 49.9 percent is not exclusive.”


For all the outcry about targeting by ideology, IRS has for years unfairly favored a different group: the rich
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 16 2013 19:22 GMT
#4760
On May 16 2013 15:55 aksfjh wrote:
I'm asking where you're getting that confidential tax records were released.

The biggest, substantiated leak of IRS records is when pending 501(c)(3) and (4) from conservative groups were sent to ProPublica. The left-leaning nonprofit talked about it here and here. Commenting on it was the Crossroads GPS spokesperson, Jonathan Collegio
“As far as we know, the Crossroads application is still pending, in which case it seems that either you obtained whatever document you have illegally, or that it has been approved,’ Jonathan Collegio, the group’s spokesman, said in an email.

“The IRS sent Crossroads’ application to ProPublica in response to a public-records request. The document sent to ProPublica didn’t include an official IRS recognition letter, which is typically attached to applications of nonprofits that have been recognized. The IRS is only required to give out applications of groups recognized as tax-exempt.


The second is the leak of Koch Industry's tax information to the Obama campaign ahead of the election. It seems to be have been successfully stomped down and moved over, but getting a little more news time in light of IRS's uncovered misbehavior. Some house of reps Republicans are also investigating those charges as part of the overall investigation, one news story on it is from The Hill.

The third is the allegations by the National Organization of Marriage that pro-gay marriage groups obtained leaked donor lists. Financial Times on that story, Senator Mitch McConnell talking about it.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
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