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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On July 08 2015 10:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 09:44 darthfoley wrote:On July 08 2015 08:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 08 2015 07:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 08 2015 06:59 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 08 2015 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 08 2015 06:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 08 2015 06:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 08 2015 06:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 08 2015 05:56 KwarK wrote: [quote] Then I'm getting lost somewhere. Right now the poor need minimum wage + benefits to have a poor lifestyle. You argue that if we increased the minimum wage then the poor lifestyle would be better but would still be poor because poor is a relative? I think that don't pay enough to support a 'living' lifestyle should largely still exist and that the government should try to make up the difference with well-designed benefits. My arguments are in support of that. I'm opposed to: "no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country." You know those are Franklin Roosevelt's words not mine right? When he was talking about creating the minimum wage in the first place. The lie that minimum wage was never supposed to be a living wage was wrong from the first time someone said it. FDR also wanted business to form cartels so that they could raise prices to pay those wages. FDR had a lot of bad ideas to go along with the good ones. Well we got the cartels without the wages. That applies to every human being, I think we all know that. No, cartels are illegal. Oh I forgot, when you make something illegal, it ceases to exist. There is a lawful minimum wage. Cartels are illegal. You think we have the former, but not the latter. Reality is not what you think it to be. A lawful minimum wage? $7.25? Are you serious? Really? Walmart has to run Thanksgiving food drives for their employees and you're championing our pitifully low minimum wage? Clearly you didn't read my posts, but I'll entertain your ignorance. GH implied that a min wage didn't exist so I pointed out that it does. I never claimed that it was awesome or whatever you've imagined. As for Walmart, the last story of that happening was an employee (not the company) collecting donations for other employees who were on a leave of absence and unable to work. Show nested quote +Wal-Mart spokeswoman Kayla Whaling quickly responded to the criticism, saying the drive was planned by one of the store's employees, who was collecting food for two co-workers who were on a leave of absence and unable to work. ... Dawnne Sulaitis, who has worked at Wal-Mart for 19 years, said she asked for permission to hold the food drive when she found out that two families would be down to one income over the holidays. ... Wal-Mart came under similar criticism last year, when an employee held a food drive for one co-worker who had lost their home in a fire, and for another who had stopped receiving child support from her ex-husband. LinkHelping people out after a fire... so horrible... I'm literally crying...
After reading this thread for a year, your arguments tend to blend together as the same stuff-- sorry if I made the horrible assumption that lawful implied a sense of fairness and/or satisfactory status quo. My ignorance knows no bounds.
And I was actually referencing this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/11/18/walmart-store-holding-thanksgiving-charity-food-drive-for-its-own-employees/
So yea, horrible is indeed the word I would use to describe Walmart.
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On July 08 2015 11:39 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 09:54 Sermokala wrote: People who want higher minimum wage should be showing how that feeds other minimum wage jobs. This living wage argument just feeds into too much of a class warfare angle. fairly simple to show just by propensity to spend, but there's also a pretty big inflation effect. the angle of analysis here should be how to create 'creative disorganization' to allow for a more productive economy made of smaller 'firms'. the economy for the past 30 years has proceeded to award organization and sophistication over smaller actors, and the division between being a vital cog of corporate america and not is ever larger. the force behind this division is the efficiency fo scale and organization.
I'm sorry, but you 100% need to clean this up for me to understand. I read it twice and it looks like a bot just mushed a bunch of buzzwords into a paragraph.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the big issue i am addressing is inequality and the question of where will our future 'good' jobs come from, at least for the part of the population that are not in one of the professional fields.
the first part is a statement of what's been happening to cause the inequality and the sharpening structure of trash jobs vs comfortable ones. this should be fairly clear by looking at the economic history of the last 30-40 years.
the second part is a theory on a way out, especially given expected increase in the efficiency of large, capital rich firms. the basic idea is to foster service industy value growth. service jobs are pretty bad if all you have are chinese takeout places, but if you have boutiques and farmer's markets it can be a decent living for a lot more people. the urbanization trend that young people prefer (vs the suburbia with fewer opportunity for niches) is the secular trend i am looking at as an opportunity for this development.
you can get a good sense of what i am talking about by looking at the economic ecology of a city like san francisco or certain parts of brooklyn. corporate america is still generating large amount of wealth, and america's global position in terms of the value chain is pretty solid. but the problem is that not everyone can work in corporate america especially given emphasis on streamlining etc of the workforce. how to get the 'trickle down process' working? you need entrepreneurship at a local and decentralized level.
the internet is obviously another space for this sort of small business value making but it also is helped by urbanization.
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On July 08 2015 11:39 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 10:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 08 2015 09:44 darthfoley wrote:On July 08 2015 08:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 08 2015 07:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 08 2015 06:59 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 08 2015 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 08 2015 06:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 08 2015 06:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 08 2015 06:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote: [quote]
I think that don't pay enough to support a 'living' lifestyle should largely still exist and that the government should try to make up the difference with well-designed benefits. My arguments are in support of that. I'm opposed to:
"no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country." You know those are Franklin Roosevelt's words not mine right? When he was talking about creating the minimum wage in the first place. The lie that minimum wage was never supposed to be a living wage was wrong from the first time someone said it. FDR also wanted business to form cartels so that they could raise prices to pay those wages. FDR had a lot of bad ideas to go along with the good ones. Well we got the cartels without the wages. That applies to every human being, I think we all know that. No, cartels are illegal. Oh I forgot, when you make something illegal, it ceases to exist. There is a lawful minimum wage. Cartels are illegal. You think we have the former, but not the latter. Reality is not what you think it to be. A lawful minimum wage? $7.25? Are you serious? Really? Walmart has to run Thanksgiving food drives for their employees and you're championing our pitifully low minimum wage? Clearly you didn't read my posts, but I'll entertain your ignorance. GH implied that a min wage didn't exist so I pointed out that it does. I never claimed that it was awesome or whatever you've imagined. As for Walmart, the last story of that happening was an employee (not the company) collecting donations for other employees who were on a leave of absence and unable to work. Wal-Mart spokeswoman Kayla Whaling quickly responded to the criticism, saying the drive was planned by one of the store's employees, who was collecting food for two co-workers who were on a leave of absence and unable to work. ... Dawnne Sulaitis, who has worked at Wal-Mart for 19 years, said she asked for permission to hold the food drive when she found out that two families would be down to one income over the holidays. ... Wal-Mart came under similar criticism last year, when an employee held a food drive for one co-worker who had lost their home in a fire, and for another who had stopped receiving child support from her ex-husband. LinkHelping people out after a fire... so horrible... I'm literally crying... After reading this thread for a year, your arguments tend to blend together as the same stuff-- sorry if I made the horrible assumption that lawful implied a sense of fairness and/or satisfactory status quo. My ignorance knows no bounds. And I was actually referencing this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/11/18/walmart-store-holding-thanksgiving-charity-food-drive-for-its-own-employees/So yea, horrible is indeed the word I would use to describe Walmart. Not sure what posts of mine you were mixing up. I've defended Walmart before, because Walmart is a positive for the poor. The company pays around the industry average and the company's lower prices are particularly beneficial to low-income households.
What the Canton, OH store did is strange, but it doesn't seem to be typical. Again they pay around what other retailers pay, and so if employees there are struggling there are employees at plenty of other retailers who are in the same situation.
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The White House Tuesday announced an array of new measures to extend access to the most rapidly growing source of U.S. energy — solar — to a much broader group of Americans, including low-income communities and individuals who rent, rather than owning their own homes.
That includes a new initiative to ramp up so-called “community solar” projects across the country — programs in which one solar installation supplies energy to multiple different homes or individuals – with a focus on serving low- and middle- income Americans. It also includes a pledge to install a total of 300 megawatts of solar and other renewables in federally subsidized housing developments by the year 2020 (each megawatt represents roughly enough solar to power 164 homes).
The announcements came just a week after the administration pledged, in a joint agreement with Brazil, that the United States will get 20 percent of its total electricity from renewable sources by the year 2030 — a target that would require tripling renewables beyond current levels.
Source
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There's businesses who have shown that its possible to provide unskilled/ semiskilled workers with a living wage + decent benefits. Starbucks and Chipotle jump to mind.
I don't think having a minimum wage is a permanent solution, though we do need a band aid. A minimum wage just sets a price floor-- an ocean carries everything up, but unfortunately that includes crap which should stay at the bottom.
I think that our economy, with some changes, is very capable of supporting a lot more "good jobs". The problem is allocating the capital (which is all stuck at 8000 feet) back to the middle class.
I'd say slap some insane tax on earnings above 200K (which incidentally is the amount you need to become an accredited investor). The only way to deduct that is to invest the money into a company that creates real middle class jobs. I'd say high earners could also get a tax deduction if they invest some part of their savings/ wealth into businesses as well. IDK about specifics, but you'd have to basically show that the company did create X number of jobs. We'd probably need a whole new government agency to enforce this.
Anyways, that'd be creating the supply of middle class jobs.Then, you need education so people can fill these skilled jobs. Education costs money, and that could be funded by part of the taxes on the 250K+. While we're at it, we'd probably want to try and actually lower the price tag of education (which is way too damn high obv) in addition to offering scholarships, subsidies and other assistance.
Just a rough sketch of some ideas I had.
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Does it bother conservatives that the RNC is paying for stuff like this?
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 08 2015 10:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +A spike in intravenous drug use in a growing number of U.S. counties has led to soaring infection rates of hepatitis C and HIV in communities across the country. Increasingly these counties are pushing for the creation of needle exchange programs, but politics and bureaucracy appears to be slowing the spread of such harm reduction programs.
By enabling access to health care, rehab facilities and addressing social inequalities that exacerbate substance abuse, advocates say harm reduction programs, like needle exchanges, help to reduce the negative health effects of drug injection.
“There has been a big change in how state legislators view overdose and view drug-related harm in general,” said Corey Davis, the deputy director of the National Health Law Program.
But despite renewed interest in clinics where people can receive treatment and drop off contaminated wares in exchange for clean ones, political and bureaucratic hurdles are preventing widespread implementation — even after epidemics in Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky and elsewhere raised national alarm.
In April, an HIV outbreak in Scott County, Indiana grabbed headlines when health officials there recorded more than 100 cases in a month. The number grew to 169 by June — more than 30 times the county’s yearly average. Most infections occurred from injecting Opana, a popular painkiller containing oxymorphone, with contaminated needles.
Following the outbreak, Indiana Gov. Mike Pence waived the state’s anti-needle ban that criminalized the possession of a syringe without a medical reason and signed a law allowing county officials to request permission to establish their own needle exchange programs — though these clinics were not eligible for state funding.
While some saw this as opening the door for harm reduction clinics across the state, the reaction so far has been muted. Only two counties have made use of the new rules, though a third county is considering establishing an exchange, according to local reports.
Health officials in Scott County, Indiana, declared a health emergency and established a needle exchange program in April to slow the spread of HIV. Source
That's so sad. I really hope we're able to find a cure for HIV and AIDS soon
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The misunderstanding here is that in Jonny's world if you raise the minimum wage you have to get rid of benefits or the EITC because that automatically follows. He doesn't seem to understand that most of the discussion about raising the minimum wage assumes that any raise in the minimum wage is a direct increase to people working at or near minimum wage, and that they won't be somehow netting even because they no longer qualify for the EITC or their benefits have been cut.
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On July 08 2015 13:50 IgnE wrote: The misunderstanding here is that in Jonny's world if you raise the minimum wage you have to get rid of benefits or the EITC because that automatically follows. He doesn't seem to understand that most of the discussion about raising the minimum wage assumes that any raise in the minimum wage is a direct increase to people working at or near minimum wage, and that they won't be somehow netting even because they no longer qualify for the EITC or their benefits have been cut. Nope. But thanks for being the third person to play the 'I really didn't read Jonny's posts but I'm going to comment on them now" game.
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On July 08 2015 14:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 13:50 IgnE wrote: The misunderstanding here is that in Jonny's world if you raise the minimum wage you have to get rid of benefits or the EITC because that automatically follows. He doesn't seem to understand that most of the discussion about raising the minimum wage assumes that any raise in the minimum wage is a direct increase to people working at or near minimum wage, and that they won't be somehow netting even because they no longer qualify for the EITC or their benefits have been cut. Nope. But thanks for being the third person to play the 'I really didn't read Jonny's posts but I'm going to comment on them now" game.
You are such a liar.
On July 07 2015 11:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 11:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 07 2015 10:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 07 2015 10:43 Shiragaku wrote:So what? With all this wealth being produced with all of society transitioning from agrarianism, to industrialism, to consumerism, it should not be far fetched to propose that the way work is viewed and conducted should also be changed. On July 07 2015 10:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 07 2015 10:43 Shiragaku wrote:So what? With all this wealth being produced with all of society transitioning from agrarianism, to industrialism, to consumerism, it should not be far fetched to propose that the way work is viewed and conducted should also be changed. Your mistake was bothering to engage when his opener was: Most work over most of human history hasn't paid a '1st world arbitrary living wage'. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a integral part of society Some of the other things we didn't have for most of human history....Indoor plumbing, electricity, Christianity, petroleum products, etc... I'm not sure why they are suddenly an integral part of society lol. We also didn't have industrialized mass murder. But we can now, so - huzzah! Since you guys don't seem to be getting the point I'll try to spell it out more directly. Why should we have living wages when other options are arguably better? "Because I wants it!!!" isn't a very good argument, kids. It's the most accessible and easiest to enforce, are a couple better reasons. For instance you mentioned the EITC. Many people don't get it because they don't even know they qualify, they don't file (because they are told they don't have to), or when they do get it they don't even get all of it because some tax preparation company takes a slice. That ~$910,000,000 in profits from H&R Block isn't primarily coming from millionaires. The EITC isn't perfect but it is currently the largest anti-poverty program in the country. It's also widely regarded as a public policy success story, and more directly effective at combating poverty than a higher minimum wage. Higher wages means you lose out on other benefits as well as the EITC. Not all households will navigate that change well. Not every employer is going to be able to support large single earner households at a 'living' level, meaning that the public will have to step in an provide assistance anyways.
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On July 08 2015 14:05 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 14:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 08 2015 13:50 IgnE wrote: The misunderstanding here is that in Jonny's world if you raise the minimum wage you have to get rid of benefits or the EITC because that automatically follows. He doesn't seem to understand that most of the discussion about raising the minimum wage assumes that any raise in the minimum wage is a direct increase to people working at or near minimum wage, and that they won't be somehow netting even because they no longer qualify for the EITC or their benefits have been cut. Nope. But thanks for being the third person to play the 'I really didn't read Jonny's posts but I'm going to comment on them now" game. You are such a liar. Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 11:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 07 2015 11:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 07 2015 10:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 07 2015 10:43 Shiragaku wrote:So what? With all this wealth being produced with all of society transitioning from agrarianism, to industrialism, to consumerism, it should not be far fetched to propose that the way work is viewed and conducted should also be changed. On July 07 2015 10:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 07 2015 10:43 Shiragaku wrote:So what? With all this wealth being produced with all of society transitioning from agrarianism, to industrialism, to consumerism, it should not be far fetched to propose that the way work is viewed and conducted should also be changed. Your mistake was bothering to engage when his opener was: Most work over most of human history hasn't paid a '1st world arbitrary living wage'. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a integral part of society Some of the other things we didn't have for most of human history....Indoor plumbing, electricity, Christianity, petroleum products, etc... I'm not sure why they are suddenly an integral part of society lol. We also didn't have industrialized mass murder. But we can now, so - huzzah! Since you guys don't seem to be getting the point I'll try to spell it out more directly. Why should we have living wages when other options are arguably better? "Because I wants it!!!" isn't a very good argument, kids. It's the most accessible and easiest to enforce, are a couple better reasons. For instance you mentioned the EITC. Many people don't get it because they don't even know they qualify, they don't file (because they are told they don't have to), or when they do get it they don't even get all of it because some tax preparation company takes a slice. That ~$910,000,000 in profits from H&R Block isn't primarily coming from millionaires. The EITC isn't perfect but it is currently the largest anti-poverty program in the country. It's also widely regarded as a public policy success story, and more directly effective at combating poverty than a higher minimum wage. Higher wages means you lose out on other benefits as well as the EITC. Not all households will navigate that change well. Not every employer is going to be able to support large single earner households at a 'living' level, meaning that the public will have to step in an provide assistance anyways. No I'm not. I was using that as an argument to KEEP benefits like the EITC not "get rid of benefits or the EITC because that automatically follows."
In REAL LIFE (not "Jonny's world") as income increases means-tested benefits like the EITC are phased out to the recipient. I pointed that out in response to GH's argument that a higher wage would simpler compared to the current benefits regime.
Seriously IgnE, wtf are you doing??
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The bolded quote of yours is an argument NOT to raise the minimum wage because according to you other benefits, including EITC, will be "phased out" (i.e. automatically follows). I know this might blow your mind, but in REAL LIFE we haven't yet raised the minimum wage, nor have we reconsidered EITC and benefits in light of a new, higher, minimum wage. If it were an argument to "KEEP benefits" in spite of higher wages you could have framed it as such. But since I am such a nice guy who reads all your posts and wants to broker an understanding here, you are free to say that you are for a higher minimum wage AND a higher threshold for current low-income benefits.
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Yeah, i must say i am also not a big fan of Jonny's discussion style. It seems to be based on making very unclear and ambiguous statements, refusing to clarify them, and becoming angry when people then interpret what he says, complaining that that is not what he meant, and that people should read all of his posts, all without clarifying what he really means.
If you don't want people to put words into your mouth, make sure that the words coming out of it are clear. Maybe it is just that we are not so used to the american conservative talking points that the mere mentioning of them is enough for everyone to understand. Say what you mean, instead of giving the bare skeleton of an argument, forcing other people to add the meat to the bones to actually respond to you, and then complain that that is not the meat that you wanted.
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Jonny's saying that the EITC is super effective, it only applies to people making below a certain threshold, and raising the minimum wage to a certain point will make it (and other benefits) go poof if I understand correctly.
There's that awkward gap that exists where you don't make enough to do much more than scrape by, but make too much to get a lot of benefits. People who have the benefits lose them if min wage increases and pushes them out f the federal poverty level or whatever, but fall into financial purgatory. Then they would still need some sort of assistance.
I'd say it'd be a little like how insurance works. Used to be employers would give a pretty comprehensive plan, which is analogous to current way: lots of poor benefits w/ current minimum wage. Insurance has kind of moved to consumer driven health plans with health savings accounts, where basically there is less coverage but consumers have health savings accounts or flex savings accounts which employers put money into for employees to use at their discretion. Consumers tend to be able to allocate this money more efficiently towards their care. This latter would be analogous to the new system-- higher min wage so people have a little extra money, and lower benefits. The idea does save costs in insurance, dunno how well it would translate to this issue.
That's what i got out of it anyways, he can confirm or clarify.
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That's exactly what I said he was saying and he said I should go back to read his posts more thoroughly because that's clearly not what he was saying.
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That there is a income level where you get "screwed" because you make to little to get benefits but not enough to really survive seems like more of an issue to be addressed then a reason to avoid doing things to push people to that level. At no point should making more money make you worse of and if it does then laws need to be changed to make that not the case at any income level.
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Canada11279 Posts
On July 08 2015 09:54 Sermokala wrote: People who want higher minimum wage should be showing how that feeds other minimum wage jobs. This living wage argument just feeds into too much of a class warfare angle. Living wage isn't class warfare at all. It's very Adam Smith.
"But though in disputes with their workmen, masters must generally have the advantage, there is however a certain rate below which it seems impossible to reduce, for any considerable time, the ordinary wages even of the lowest species of labour.
A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more; otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last the first generation."
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I agree with Jonny on this one, but moreover, I'd like to see how a higher minimum wage is going to reconcile with the TPP and losing millions of jobs. Seems just like even more incentive for outsourcing at that point.
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On July 08 2015 15:56 screamingpalm wrote: I agree with Jonny on this one, but moreover, I'd like to see how a higher minimum wage is going to reconcile with the TPP and losing millions of jobs. Seems just like even more incentive for outsourcing at that point.
What do you specifically agree with Jonny on?
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