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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2014

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
May 30 2015 00:38 GMT
#40261
On May 30 2015 07:35 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2015 05:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
On May 30 2015 05:25 Introvert wrote:
I see the Sanders delusion is already under way. Oh well, maybe the Bernie spam will at least be amusing.

a "good guy" or an honest politician, when they have no idea. Just because he admits to being a socialist from VT, so wh
Just curious which republicans you think he is comparable to as far as chances to win?


I've said multiple times that I never rule anyone out (though it's a long shot). I root for many of the Republicans that have small chances. That being said, I'm not going to talk about Republicans, that's just a diversion.

But I was also commenting on all this praise for Sanders. people who didn't know who he was 2 years ago are now ardent supporters and think he's great? I need more evidence, see how he performs, the scale of the lies and deception he will employ to win.

I'm just amused by how all of a sudden we have daily articles everywhere about him and how he can win! At least the Republican field is more wide open, Sanders has a worse chance at the nomination than any major Republican (by that I mean the Republicans are all around 10% or less), even if he has 15% support (while Hillary is at what, 50%+).

From the NYT article linked above:
"In this regard, Sanders has not always been smart, especially when he was first elected to the House in 1990. He called Congress “impotent” and dismissed the two major parties as indistinguishable tools of the wealthy. He said it wouldn’t bother him if 80 percent of his colleagues lost re-election — not the best way to win friends in a new workplace."

Is there something not to like about him that I don't know about yet? This is only a funny paragraph, but more broadly, it's immensely refreshing and encouraging that he talks good sense as a matter of course. So far I find him to intellectually honest. Indications otherwise?
May the BeSt man win.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-30 01:45:33
May 30 2015 01:44 GMT
#40262
I think video cameras will fix the american police problem:
http://www.nbcchicago.com/investigations/laquan-mcdonald-investigation-305105631.html

Chicago police officers deleted footage from a security camera at a Burger King restaurant located fewer than 100 yards from where 17-year old Laquan McDonald was shot and killed, according to a Chicago-area district manager for the food chain.
McDonald was shot 16 times by a Chicago police officer on the night of October 20, 2014. Nine of the shots struck McDonald in the back, according to the Medical Examiners report.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 30 2015 01:59 GMT
#40263
Former House Speaker Dennis Hastert was paying a man to not reveal that Hastert had abused him years ago, The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times are reporting.

Hastert was indicted Thursday in connection with charges that he tried to hide cash withdrawal requirements and lied to the FBI about it. As NPR's Brian Naylor reported:

"According to the U.S. attorney's office, Hastert agreed to pay $3.5 million to a person identified only as Individual A 'in order to compensate for and conceal his prior misconduct against Individual A.' The indictment charges that Hastert began withdrawing money from various bank accounts, and that beginning in approximately July 2012 he started structuring those withdrawals in increments of less than $10,000 to evade currency transaction requirements that withdrawals of $10,000 or more be reported."

The New York Times based its story on two people briefed on the evidence uncovered in the FBI's investigation into the payments. The LA Times quoted two federal law enforcement officials.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-30 02:07:26
May 30 2015 01:59 GMT
#40264
On May 30 2015 10:44 puerk wrote:
I think video cameras will fix the american police problem:
http://www.nbcchicago.com/investigations/laquan-mcdonald-investigation-305105631.html

Show nested quote +
Chicago police officers deleted footage from a security camera at a Burger King restaurant located fewer than 100 yards from where 17-year old Laquan McDonald was shot and killed, according to a Chicago-area district manager for the food chain.
McDonald was shot 16 times by a Chicago police officer on the night of October 20, 2014. Nine of the shots struck McDonald in the back, according to the Medical Examiners report.


I feel like it'll almost be easier to just get people to stop defending corrupt cops if we just point out how expensive it is to pay off victims and defend all these dickbags. I mean they get discount defenses considering the crimes they are typically committing but still $5 million off the top (while quite the discount) is not chump change. That could be better wages for all the good cops at very worst.

What I find fascinating is how many of the statistically analytical people here and elsewhere don't seem concerned about the anomalies surrounding police getting indicted/convicted. Some even seem to tout them as evidence they are superhuman in their integrity and professionalism.
On May 30 2015 10:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Former House Speaker Dennis Hastert was paying a man to not reveal that Hastert had abused him years ago, The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times are reporting.

Hastert was indicted Thursday in connection with charges that he tried to hide cash withdrawal requirements and lied to the FBI about it. As NPR's Brian Naylor reported:

"According to the U.S. attorney's office, Hastert agreed to pay $3.5 million to a person identified only as Individual A 'in order to compensate for and conceal his prior misconduct against Individual A.' The indictment charges that Hastert began withdrawing money from various bank accounts, and that beginning in approximately July 2012 he started structuring those withdrawals in increments of less than $10,000 to evade currency transaction requirements that withdrawals of $10,000 or more be reported."

The New York Times based its story on two people briefed on the evidence uncovered in the FBI's investigation into the payments. The LA Times quoted two federal law enforcement officials.


Source


Gives a whole new meaning to the "Hastert Rule"...

+ Show Spoiler +
Seriously That was the cleanest Republican they could find after Gingrich and the other guy with the sex scandal to be speaker of the 'Party of Family Values"... There have been a few Anti-Gay Republicans with Grindr profiles, that one anti-abortion pro family republican with a mistress who he encouraged to have an abortion... Huckabee leaping to the defense of the Dugger pedo who was anti-gay (because he thought they would be pedo's)... Lindsay Graham...I do Declare!

Social conservatives need to get their own shit together and leave everyone else alone for awhile.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44300 Posts
May 30 2015 02:07 GMT
#40265
On May 30 2015 10:44 puerk wrote:
I think video cameras will fix the american police problem:
http://www.nbcchicago.com/investigations/laquan-mcdonald-investigation-305105631.html

Show nested quote +
Chicago police officers deleted footage from a security camera at a Burger King restaurant located fewer than 100 yards from where 17-year old Laquan McDonald was shot and killed, according to a Chicago-area district manager for the food chain.
McDonald was shot 16 times by a Chicago police officer on the night of October 20, 2014. Nine of the shots struck McDonald in the back, according to the Medical Examiners report.


McDonald was killed at Burger King?

On topic: Is this tampering with evidence (the deleting of the footage)?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
OuchyDathurts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4588 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-30 02:20:02
May 30 2015 02:18 GMT
#40266
Having cameras is better than not having cameras, but they're still not the end all be all. There's footage of cops killing people that end up going no where. Having footage doesn't necessarily mean having accountability. I'd rather have footage of everything than not, but its no magic bullet.

The cameras need to record at all times, there's no way to turn them off.

They should have a system where the officer shows up for his shift. Grabs his radio and camera. You can't get your service weapon until your camera is pulled and checked for operation. No functioning camera no gun, you get to go out unarmed. They can't turn it off for any purpose by any means. At the end of their shift they put their equipment back, camera goes back on the charger and uploads the footage to wherever it's kept along with uploading a secure backup where it can't be touched and end up "missing".

I also like the cop insurance idea. Police carry insurance like a doctor or contractor does. The municipality pays for their insurance at the base level. If that cop never has a claim put against them they're fine. If they abuse their power and there are claims against them their insurance gets more and more expensive but the city doesn't pay any more than the base level. Police that abuse their power have to pay out of pocket, eventually go broke and become uninsurable, they can't just move to a different department.
LiquidDota Staff
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
May 30 2015 02:28 GMT
#40267
On May 30 2015 11:18 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Having cameras is better than not having cameras, but they're still not the end all be all. There's footage of cops killing people that end up going no where. Having footage doesn't necessarily mean having accountability. I'd rather have footage of everything than not, but its no magic bullet.

The cameras need to record at all times, there's no way to turn them off.

They should have a system where the officer shows up for his shift. Grabs his radio and camera. You can't get your service weapon until your camera is pulled and checked for operation. No functioning camera no gun, you get to go out unarmed. They can't turn it off for any purpose by any means. At the end of their shift they put their equipment back, camera goes back on the charger and uploads the footage to wherever it's kept along with uploading a secure backup where it can't be touched and end up "missing".

I also like the cop insurance idea. Police carry insurance like a doctor or contractor does. The municipality pays for their insurance at the base level. If that cop never has a claim put against them they're fine. If they abuse their power and there are claims against them their insurance gets more and more expensive but the city doesn't pay any more than the base level. Police that abuse their power have to pay out of pocket, eventually go broke and become uninsurable, they can't just move to a different department.


You got to let them take a lunch, and breaks without being monitored. Dispatch to the 3rd party and defaults to turn back on if they don't check in periodically. They should also be sending the data to a central recording office more frequently. Like whenever they are in range of their laptop it should be wirelessly sending footage.

Insurance sounds fine, real estate agents have to have insurance, employees with guns probably should too. The public shouldn't be paying for their defenses (particularly if they are found guilty). Unions should probably stop paying out retirements to convicts too.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
dAVID002
Profile Joined May 2015
United States0 Posts
May 30 2015 03:13 GMT
#40268
--- Nuked ---
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-30 04:37:38
May 30 2015 04:35 GMT
#40269
--- Nuked ---
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21666 Posts
May 30 2015 08:35 GMT
#40270
On May 30 2015 10:44 puerk wrote:
I think video cameras will fix the american police problem:
http://www.nbcchicago.com/investigations/laquan-mcdonald-investigation-305105631.html

Show nested quote +
Chicago police officers deleted footage from a security camera at a Burger King restaurant located fewer than 100 yards from where 17-year old Laquan McDonald was shot and killed, according to a Chicago-area district manager for the food chain.
McDonald was shot 16 times by a Chicago police officer on the night of October 20, 2014. Nine of the shots struck McDonald in the back, according to the Medical Examiners report.

how the fuck can they even legally do that?
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11507 Posts
May 30 2015 09:13 GMT
#40271
On May 30 2015 11:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2015 11:18 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Having cameras is better than not having cameras, but they're still not the end all be all. There's footage of cops killing people that end up going no where. Having footage doesn't necessarily mean having accountability. I'd rather have footage of everything than not, but its no magic bullet.

The cameras need to record at all times, there's no way to turn them off.

They should have a system where the officer shows up for his shift. Grabs his radio and camera. You can't get your service weapon until your camera is pulled and checked for operation. No functioning camera no gun, you get to go out unarmed. They can't turn it off for any purpose by any means. At the end of their shift they put their equipment back, camera goes back on the charger and uploads the footage to wherever it's kept along with uploading a secure backup where it can't be touched and end up "missing".

I also like the cop insurance idea. Police carry insurance like a doctor or contractor does. The municipality pays for their insurance at the base level. If that cop never has a claim put against them they're fine. If they abuse their power and there are claims against them their insurance gets more and more expensive but the city doesn't pay any more than the base level. Police that abuse their power have to pay out of pocket, eventually go broke and become uninsurable, they can't just move to a different department.


You got to let them take a lunch, and breaks without being monitored. Dispatch to the 3rd party and defaults to turn back on if they don't check in periodically. They should also be sending the data to a central recording office more frequently. Like whenever they are in range of their laptop it should be wirelessly sending footage.

Insurance sounds fine, real estate agents have to have insurance, employees with guns probably should too. The public shouldn't be paying for their defenses (particularly if they are found guilty). Unions should probably stop paying out retirements to convicts too.


Also, un-turn-offable cameras are simply not possible. Any camera has to have a lense, through which light enters. Put something in front of that lense, no light enters, no matter which electronic securities you have, you don't get an image. I am already expecting murderers to go free with the "Well some donut glace got stuck on my bodycam so there is no footage" defense.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
May 30 2015 10:43 GMT
#40272
I like the positions Sanders takes, but they are even more hopey and changey than most campaign positions which already don't exactly translate well to reality. It's just not pragmatic. He's getting judged on what he says he will do rather than what he can do, and the gap between those two is about wide as the Grand Canyon. There's a bit of a double standard in his favor, where other candidates are getting judged on having a more conservative (in the non-political sense of the word) position because they're taking the realities of the American political machine into account.

I also respect Sanders' voting record and putting his hand where his mouth is, but that sort of consistency only speaks to his personal integrity or whatever, not his ability to govern. Captain of the ship can spin the wheel all he wants, but the ship of state is not going to move if the rowers don't row and there's no wind.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-30 12:20:48
May 30 2015 12:20 GMT
#40273
Naturally, there are problems with extrapolating towards the national stage, but Bernie is a huge part of why Vermont is such an awesome place. So he can govern, only thus far it's been relative to a small state.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
May 30 2015 15:00 GMT
#40274
don't think the hard left line can win. it will be a distraction. at the end of the day i'm not convinced that the hard left has a workable economic policy, both in terms of intl trade and domestic. the most productive direction is still to build a big tent that does not try to change the world but fix the rather severe critical problems in the prison-police system, underemployment and whatnot.

We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
May 30 2015 16:29 GMT
#40275
On May 30 2015 19:43 ticklishmusic wrote:
I like the positions Sanders takes, but they are even more hopey and changey than most campaign positions which already don't exactly translate well to reality. It's just not pragmatic. He's getting judged on what he says he will do rather than what he can do, and the gap between those two is about wide as the Grand Canyon. There's a bit of a double standard in his favor, where other candidates are getting judged on having a more conservative (in the non-political sense of the word) position because they're taking the realities of the American political machine into account.

I also respect Sanders' voting record and putting his hand where his mouth is, but that sort of consistency only speaks to his personal integrity or whatever, not his ability to govern. Captain of the ship can spin the wheel all he wants, but the ship of state is not going to move if the rowers don't row and there's no wind.


The bold part is key, Bernie (as well as Obama) have said that it will take a grassroots movement of the people to change anything. People checked out mostly after electing Obama. Of course he didn't support the movements that were coming up once he got elected much, so that didn't help.

Even if only half of the eligible voters that typically don't vote, started voting things would start changing fast. Particularly if voter turnout for midterms got closer to 60-70%

After seeing Rand's Pac's commercial I kind of want to see a Sanders commercial playing off of weekend at Bernie's.


"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 30 2015 17:32 GMT
#40276
On May 31 2015 00:00 oneofthem wrote:
don't think the hard left line can win. it will be a distraction. at the end of the day i'm not convinced that the hard left has a workable economic policy, both in terms of intl trade and domestic. the most productive direction is still to build a big tent that does not try to change the world but fix the rather severe critical problems in the prison-police system, underemployment and whatnot.

That's their continuing problem. They can get supporters along for 60-80% of the ride, in terms of what you identify as big tent policies. It's the final 20-40% that trips up supporters and stays as the tough sell.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
May 30 2015 17:57 GMT
#40277
People are still considering Hillary after all of this Clinton Foundation bullshit? I mean, I always thought they were self-aggrandizing but not really nefarious. But, shit, they should probably be tried for treason if half of this shit is true. Sadly, there's a good chance the Big Three will just ignore it and nothing will come of it. My favorite line was "Turns out Clintons were everything they accused Cheney of being".
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
May 30 2015 18:11 GMT
#40278
On May 31 2015 02:57 Jerubaal wrote:
People are still considering Hillary after all of this Clinton Foundation bullshit? I mean, I always thought they were self-aggrandizing but not really nefarious. But, shit, they should probably be tried for treason if half of this shit is true. Sadly, there's a good chance the Big Three will just ignore it and nothing will come of it. My favorite line was "Turns out Clintons were everything they accused Cheney of being".


Well, what Cheney is/was. A lot of the stuff tossed around is just bullshit, but the right used up their credibility, so the average voter doesn't care to parse between the two. Republicans have to come up with a detailed alternative and convince people they aren't going to do the opposite once they get into office. Lowering turnout for Hillary will not get them over 50%

But Republicans will basically do Sanders Job for him. The worse they make her look the better they make Sanders look. The rift on the right between Paul supporters and the hawks seems to be growing, as I'm starting to hear more commentators on the right suggest we shouldn't be over there.

I'm starting to think there may be a tiny little outside chance of a Paul vs Sanders election... That would be interesting to watch.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-30 18:31:53
May 30 2015 18:25 GMT
#40279
On May 31 2015 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2015 02:57 Jerubaal wrote:
People are still considering Hillary after all of this Clinton Foundation bullshit? I mean, I always thought they were self-aggrandizing but not really nefarious. But, shit, they should probably be tried for treason if half of this shit is true. Sadly, there's a good chance the Big Three will just ignore it and nothing will come of it. My favorite line was "Turns out Clintons were everything they accused Cheney of being".


Well, what Cheney is/was. A lot of the stuff tossed around is just bullshit, but the right used up their credibility, so the average voter doesn't care to parse between the two. Republicans have to come up with a detailed alternative and convince people they aren't going to do the opposite once they get into office. Lowering turnout for Hillary will not get them over 50%

But Republicans will basically do Sanders Job for him. The worse they make her look the better they make Sanders look. The rift on the right between Paul supporters and the hawks seems to be growing, as I'm starting to hear more commentators on the right suggest we shouldn't be over there.

I'm starting to think there may be a tiny little outside chance of a Paul vs Sanders election... That would be interesting to watch.



Hokay. I guess we are just going to both say that the other is using the evidence they like, ignore what's inconvenient and accuse the other of doing the same Although, as far as I can tell, the evidence against Cheney was people screaming "HALLIBURTON!" hysterically while there is a very suspicious money trail related to the Clintons.

The whole "the system is broken. we need the people to rise up". This is just lazy, self-indulgent justification for why your preferred prejudices aren't immediately enacted. The "system" is fine, the electorate is split. Maybe politicians saying "whatever it takes to get elected" is more a reflection of the electorate than it is of them. By the way, there's no evidence that the U.S.'s lower voting rates are attitudinal and more voters (like in landslide elections) come at the cost of a more ignorant votership. Not exactly a shining endorsement.

Finally, yes, the Republicans are much more fractious than the Democrats. I don't know why you're crowing about that though. One, you're admitting that the Democrats are much more of a cabal than the Republicans, despite the fact that you accuse the Republicans of being the usurpers. Two, you're alluding to the fact that Leftism is much more interested in Power than the Right and much more willing to set aside principles to gain power.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-30 18:53:02
May 30 2015 18:51 GMT
#40280
On May 31 2015 03:25 Jerubaal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2015 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
On May 31 2015 02:57 Jerubaal wrote:
People are still considering Hillary after all of this Clinton Foundation bullshit? I mean, I always thought they were self-aggrandizing but not really nefarious. But, shit, they should probably be tried for treason if half of this shit is true. Sadly, there's a good chance the Big Three will just ignore it and nothing will come of it. My favorite line was "Turns out Clintons were everything they accused Cheney of being".


Well, what Cheney is/was. A lot of the stuff tossed around is just bullshit, but the right used up their credibility, so the average voter doesn't care to parse between the two. Republicans have to come up with a detailed alternative and convince people they aren't going to do the opposite once they get into office. Lowering turnout for Hillary will not get them over 50%

But Republicans will basically do Sanders Job for him. The worse they make her look the better they make Sanders look. The rift on the right between Paul supporters and the hawks seems to be growing, as I'm starting to hear more commentators on the right suggest we shouldn't be over there.

I'm starting to think there may be a tiny little outside chance of a Paul vs Sanders election... That would be interesting to watch.



Hokay. I guess we are just going to both say that the other is using the evidence they like, ignore what's inconvenient and accuse the other of doing the same Although, as far as I can tell, the evidence against Cheney was people screaming "HALLIBURTON!" hysterically while there is a very suspicious money trail related to the Clintons.

The whole "the system is broken. we need the people to rise up". This is just lazy, self-indulgent justification for why your preferred prejudices aren't immediately enacted. The "system" is fine, the electorate is split. Maybe politicians saying "whatever it takes to get elected" is more a reflection of the electorate than it is of them. By the way, there's no evidence that the U.S.'s lower voting rates are attitudinal and more voters (like in landslide elections) come at the cost of a more ignorant votership. Not exactly a shining endorsement.

Finally, yes, the Republicans are much more fractious than the Democrats. I don't know why you're crowing about that though. One, you're admitting that the Democrats are much more of a cabal than the Republicans, despite the fact that you accuse the Republicans of being the usurpers. Two, you're alluding to the fact that Leftism is much more interested in Power than the Right and much more willing to set aside principles to gain power.


I pick on republicans a lot but I'm not a hardcore partisan democrat. Republicans outside of Rand Paul are just so ridiculous there is just 0 chance I would ever support them. They simply don't offer anything that would have a significant and positive impact in my or the people I care about lives. The ways they talk about 'keeping government out' are none of the ways I need government to get out. Inserting the government into women's uterus doesn't help the credibility issue either.

What appeals to people about Bernie is that he is sincere, something I don't think Hillary gets accused of often. Bernie isn't saying anything that will negatively impact my or the people I care about lives, at least not any worse than is already happening.

As for the populism aspect I think you misunderstand. There are an overwhelming majority of Americans that disagree with the Republican party on several issues (particularly social). A lot of them just don't vote (for a lot of different reasons). If they start voting, Republicans have to reflect their will, not their 'principles' which reflect a bygone era and a disappearing minority.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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