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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1931

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Oshuy
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands529 Posts
May 06 2015 12:59 GMT
#38601
On May 06 2015 12:05 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2015 11:53 Millitron wrote:
On May 06 2015 11:48 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 06 2015 11:34 Leporello wrote:
On May 06 2015 11:11 cLutZ wrote:
On May 06 2015 10:52 Chocolate wrote:
On May 06 2015 07:54 cLutZ wrote:
On May 06 2015 06:31 Yoav wrote:
On May 06 2015 05:38 cLutZ wrote:
On May 06 2015 03:21 Chocolate wrote:
if you're a liberal is there any reason not to vote Sanders in the primary? Hillary seems way too centrist to be able to capture most of the democratic voting base and is basically just bankrolled by wall street.


Not really, they hold virtually the same position on every issue. She has a 10.4 from the national taxpayers union, he has a 9.4, meaning they basically want to spend the same amount of money and raises taxes the same amount. Its purely a difference in rhetorical style. http://www.ntu.org/state/legislator/hillary-clinton http://www.ntu.org/state/legislator/bernard-sanders-2


This isn't remotely true. Tax rating is not the sum of all politics. She's way more hawkish than him on basically everything you can be a hawk on. He's also a fucking socialist.

And he's got personal integrity, so there's that.


Perhaps on war, but he actually only claims to be a socialist (perhaps he is in his heart). His public statements, policy positions, and voting record put him squarely within the modern progressive sphere: No state ownership of capital, increased regulation and control over private industry, and increased taxes/redistribution.

But I suppose he does have integrity, such that he admits that he has very leftist positions, rather than hides them, ala Clinton.

lol what? Sanders has voted consistently with a socialist ideology on virtually every bill that he has had the chance to vote on. You just don't think he's socialist because there aren't enough socialist bills put to vote in congress.

Compare that to Hillary who is pretty hawkish in terms of foreign policy / intelligence gathering and pretty centrist in many aspects (abortion), flipped her stance on gay marriage only when she thought it prudent to do so, has retarded views regarding gender equality, and dodges almost every question I've ever seen her asked on television. Seems like Obama 2.0 to me


Obama scores more highly than either on being a high taxer/big spender.

Edit. Its irrelevant, all 3 would push through the highest politically feasible amount of increased taxes and increased government control over the private sector, if made president. The foreign policy difference is real (but all presidents seem to change when they get the office), and Hillary/Obama seem to enjoy subsidies to business more than Sanders, but he would spend that same money, just spend it somewhere else.


There is so much baselessness here, that I don't to laugh or cry. You're talking about a guy who has already finished a term and a half and hasn't raised taxes once... And he scores higher than -- wait, who gives a shit? He didn't raise taxes. End of story.

+ Show Spoiler +
Who cares what he scores on some imaginary test that seems devoid of even basic fact? If Obama scores as a "high-taxer" on this test, I think it's safe to say the test is as meaningless as can be. If anything the results of such a test should be taken as opposite, maybe?

After that, you make a bunch of assumptions about the future-imagined budgets of Clinton and Sanders. What do you possibly base this on? You can look at Vermont's budgets as a reflection of what Sanders might do as president, I suppose, but Clinton? This is pure assumption and imagination, based on nothing but general rhetoric from... god only knows who.


If you want to talk about the candidates, then all you can do is simply discuss what their ideas are and what they propose to do as President. Based on what they propose, Sanders and Clinton are two very different candidate, with different history and different ideas. I don't know where you make these grand-assumptions about increased taxes and government-control over I-don't-know-what, but try to stick to something that can at least be attributed to things these people have actually done or said, not some "test".

Taxes went up a few times under Obama's terms. Off the top of my head the two big ones were under the ACA and the Bush tax expiry. I don't recall him being a big spender beyond the stimulus though.

Well, he's spent a lot on the military. We're still in Afghanistan, we bombed Libya, we're bombing Syria, we're back in Iraq, and nothing has been done about the F35, i.e. the $1 trillion X-wing that still doesn't work that we don't even need.

Military spending took a hit under the sequester though. It's set to continue to be a shrinking part of the budget going forward as well. Adjusting for inflation, military spend peaked in 2011 (source). I suppose you can argue that was due to Reps taking the House, but it doesn't lend to the 'he's a big spender' argument.

Edit: also, X-wings are cool :3


Military spendings are decreasing, when seen as a % of GDP. US dropped out of the top 10 of countries for the % spent, now behind Afghanistan/Algeria/Angola/Armenia/Israel/Lebanon/Morocco/Oman/Russia/Saudi Arabia/Yemen. They were 2nd in 2010.

On the other hand, the US budget is still 50% of the world-wide military spendings
Coooot
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-07 12:38:18
May 07 2015 12:16 GMT
#38602
On May 06 2015 05:52 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2015 05:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 05 2015 23:37 ticklishmusic wrote:
On May 05 2015 13:34 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 05 2015 13:05 ticklishmusic wrote:
On May 05 2015 12:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 05 2015 12:56 ticklishmusic wrote:
On May 05 2015 12:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 05 2015 12:22 oneofthem wrote:
i've read it and it says epa's estimate is in the tens of billions range from mercury


The EPA rule that is directly at issue before the Justices will cost the industry, it has said, some $9.6 billion a year, which, the companies contend, will buy very little public health benefit — $4 million to $6 million, at most. EPA has conceded the annual cost for the companies, but it estimates that this will yield — in dollar terms — benefits between $37 billion and $90 billion annually. - See more at: http://www.scotusblog.com/2015/03/argument-preview-epa-on-the-defensive-again/#sthash.fVfrDGsy.dpuf



seems rather wild to claim that the epa would agree to a 6m figure for non-co2 pollutants. there's nothing in that link about the amount from carbon you gotta come up withs omething else

Not saying that's the case here, but the EPA does put out benefit estimates that are, to be kind, speculative.


The EPA's mandate is human health, finances don't play any role in it IIRC? Whitman vs American Trucking.

Finances? I'm talking about their benefit estimates. You just cited some in your previous post.


Wrong guy, first time chiming in on this issue

While I can accept that benefit estimates are probably off because the criteria for what is actually a benefit is so subjective, it's kind of a no brainer that reducing our reliance on coal is probably good for the environment.

It seems on one end the energy companies are using a number that only includes the bare benefits, like x less tons of carbon released times whatever the credit value per ton is, while the EPA does some estimate that includes x number of people don't get ill, their increased productivity, reduced medical costs, etc. The reality is hard to quantify, but going under the EPA's court approved mandate this is all just some finger waggling and semantics more or less. The reality is, far as I understand, as long as the EPA can pull out some scientific evidence that coal is bad (which is easy as making a pb&j), they don't necessarily need to quantify *how* bad it is (financially).

whoops, my bad, it's late here.

I've read before that the epa will do things like extrapolate from what is known, into what is unknown. So pollution above x level is known to have a negative health effect. EPA lowers pollution below x and assumes the benefits are tangible, even though there is no scientific evidence that the benefit exists.


What do you mean extrapolate from known into unknown?

The PPM limits and all that jazz probably have some basis in science--- it just becomes hard to quantify the financial benefit, and the fact there's a limit that takes practicality into account (because we ideally would have 0 sulfuric acid being emitted) is already reasonablish to me.

I'm not very versed in pollution health effects (was not covered in my immunology class, we went behind schedule), but IIRC there's a sort of logarithmic curve health quality/impacts plotted against pollution concentration, and the EPA tends to set the limit somewhere before the rapid increase. Of course, that's an idealized model with limitations etc. etc. etc. We can only really do so much research about it, the only real way to determine these inflection points (if they even exist) is to just monitor populations lol.

Let's say pollutant X the limit is established at 1000. How much "benefit" do you reap at say 500 vs 700 PPM? Both are under the limit, but how much better is 500 vs 700? Again, the criteria are subjective but ultimately irrelevant. The EPA has to regulate human health, cost benefit does not necessarily need to play a role in it. They already meet a standard of reasonableness with "practical" PPM limits.

By known to unknown I mean that some substances will be known to cause harm above a certain amount. In toxicology there's a common phrase: 'the dose makes the poison.' To give an example, fluoride is toxic in large doses, but it is also good for your teeth in small doses and so is added to toothpaste and drinking water.

As it relates to the EPA, things will be known to be harmful above a known threshold. When writing rules to limit those things below that known threshold, the EPA will assume that the benefits continue. In a case like that it is possible that there will be no benefits from a reduction, yet the benefits will still be added to the cost benefit analysis.

The EPA has also changed a lot of how they calculate benefits in the past few years and frankly many of their numbers seem unrealistically high, particularly since most air pollutants have already been substantially reduced. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
TE had a few articles on this a while back. Here's one:

+ Show Spoiler +
Measuring the impact of regulation
The rule of more

Rule-making is being made to look more beneficial under Barack Obama

IN DECEMBER Barack Obama trumpeted a new standard for mercury emissions from power plants. The rule, he boasted, would prevent thousands of premature deaths, heart attacks and asthma cases. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) reckoned these benefits were worth up to $90 billion a year, far above their $10 billion-a-year cost. Mr Obama took a swipe at past administrations for not implementing this “common-sense, cost-effective standard”.

A casual listener would have assumed that all these benefits came from reduced mercury. In fact, reduced mercury explained none of the purported future reduction in deaths, heart attacks and asthma, and less than 0.01% of the monetary benefits. Instead, almost all the benefits came from concomitant reductions in a pollutant that was not the principal target of the rule: namely, fine particles.

The minutiae of how regulators calculate benefits may seem arcane, but matters a lot. When businesses complain that Mr Obama has burdened them with costly new rules, his advisers respond that those costs are more than justified by even higher benefits. His Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA), which vets the red tape spewing out of the federal apparatus, reckons the “net benefit” of the rules passed in 2009-10 is greater than in the first two years of the administrations of either George Bush junior or Bill Clinton.

But those calculations have been criticised for resting on assumptions that yield higher benefits and lower costs. One of these assumptions is the generous use of ancillary benefits, or “co-benefits”, such as reductions in fine particles as a result of a rule targeting mercury.

Mr Obama's advisers note that co-benefits have long been included in regulatory cost-benefit analysis. The logic is sound. For instance, someone may cycle to work principally to save money on fuel, parking or bus fares, but also to get more exercise. Both sorts of benefit should be counted.

The controversy arises from the overwhelming role that co-benefits play in assessing Mr Obama's rule-making. Fully two-thirds of the benefits of economically significant final rules reviewed by OIRA in 2010 were thanks to reductions in fine particles brought about by regulations that were actually aimed at something else, according to Susan Dudley of George Washington University, who served in OIRA under George Bush (see chart). That is double the share of co-benefits reported in Mr Bush's last year in office in 2008.

If reducing fine particles is so beneficial, it would surely be more transparent and efficient to target them directly. As it happens, federal standards for fine-particle concentrations already exist. But the EPA routinely claims additional benefits from reducing those concentrations well below levels the current law considers safe. That is dubious: a lack of data makes it much harder to know the effects of such low concentrations.

Another criticism of the Obama administration's approach is its heavy reliance on “private benefits”. Economists typically justify regulation when private market participants, such as buyers and sellers of electricity, generate costs—such as pollution—that the rest of society has to bear. But fuel and energy-efficiency regulations are now being justified not by such social benefits, but by private benefits like reduced spending on fuel and electricity.

Private benefits have long been used in cost-benefit analysis but Ms Dudley's data show that, like co-benefits, their importance has grown dramatically under Mr Obama. Ted Gayer of the Brookings Institution notes that private benefits such as reduced fuel consumption and shorter refuelling times account for 90% of the $388 billion in lifetime benefits claimed for last year's new fuel-economy standards for cars and light trucks. They also account for 92% and 70% of the benefits of new energy-efficiency standards for washing machines and refrigerators respectively.

The values placed on such private benefits are highly suspect. If consumers were really better off with more efficient cars or appliances, they would buy them without a prod from government. The fact that they don't means they put little value on money saved in the future, or simply prefer other features more. Mr Obama's OIRA notes that a growing body of research argues that consumers don't always make rational choices; Mr Gayer counters that regulators do not make appropriate use of that research in their calculations.

Under Mr Obama, rule-makers' assumptions not only enhance the benefits of rules but also reduce the costs. John Graham of Indiana University, who ran OIRA under Mr Bush, cites the new fuel-economy standards as an example. They assume that electric cars have no carbon emissions, although the electricity they use probably came from coal. They also assume less of a “rebound effect”—the tendency of people to drive more when their cars get better mileage—than was the case under Mr Bush.

Mr Bush's administration was sometimes accused of the opposite bias: understating benefits and overstating costs. At one point his EPA considered assigning a lower value to reducing the risk of death for elderly people since they had fewer years left to live; it eventually backed down. Mr Obama's EPA has considered raising the value of cutting the risk of death by cancer on the ground that it is a more horrifying way to die than others.

More consistent cost-benefit analysis would reduce such controversies. Michael Greenstone of the Hamilton Project, a liberal-leaning research group, thinks that could be done through the creation of a non-partisan congressional oversight body using the best evidence available to vet regulations, much as the Congressional Budget Office vets fiscal policy. It would also re-evaluate old regulations to see if the original analysis behind them was still valid. Rule-making would still require judgment, but it would be less subject to the whims of the people in power.


Link

That's called the Linear No-Threshold model, and while its currently how things work, there's plenty of legit criticism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold#Controversy

The wiki article only considers radiation exposure, but most of the criticisms hold up regardless of what kind of exposure you're talking about.

LNT is challenged because of the body's radiation damage repair and defense mechanism. it is very specific to certain types of ionizing radiation. there is dosage problem wtih every toxin but your last statement is misleading. not every type of chemical damage is protected by the body, and lead poisoning is one of those cases where LNT does apply.

most critically in the case of radiation low dosage empirical tests are not possible thus they rely on model projection, whereas for some chemicals empirical animal toxicology studies at low dosage could be performed. it's also dependent on a particular chemical's interaction with the body. hormonal substitutes may be powerfula t low dosage for example. either way, low dosage of lead is clearly damaging for the neurosystem.

http://www.tufts.edu/~skrimsky/PDF/Low-Dose Toxicology.pdf
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44365 Posts
May 07 2015 13:03 GMT
#38603
Americans Far More Comfortable With Gay Presidential Candidate Than Evangelical Christian

A new poll finds the vast majority of Americans are far more enthusiastic and comfortable with a presidential candidate who is gay than who is an evangelical Christian.

As the Republican presidential candidate field grows rapidly, and as the GOP panders to the Christian right – promising to "defend traditional marriage" and the "assault of religious freedom," political strategists might want to take a look at the latest WSJ/NBC poll.

Asked how they would feel about presidential candidates with certain qualities or characteristics, far more Americans said they would "be enthusiastic" or "be comfortable with" a candidate who is gay than a candidate who is an evangelical Christian.

A very large majority, 61 percent, said they would be enthusiastic or comfortable with a gay candidate, while just 52 percent said the same of an evangelical Christian.

On the opposite side, just 37 percent said they would "have some reservations about" or "be very uncomfortable with" a gay candidate, while 44 percent said the same of an evangelical Christian.

The poll also found just 33 percent of Americans supportive of a Tea Party candidate, and just 30 percent supportive of a candidate with no political experience.

The poll was conducted with 1000 Americans at the end of April.


Source

I'm *extremely* skeptical of this poll result. I wonder if the one thousand Americans polled were from all across the country in a proportional demographic (including the South/ Bible Belt). I don't think that's the case, as it's a WSJ/NBC poll, so there's possibly liberal volunteer bias.

I'd obviously be much happier to see a gay president than a religious nutjob in the White House, but the number of deeply religious Americans is still overwhelming.

One can certainly be optimistic, though! I think we could possibly get there within 50 years.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 07 2015 13:09 GMT
#38604
On May 07 2015 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
Americans Far More Comfortable With Gay Presidential Candidate Than Evangelical Christian

A new poll finds the vast majority of Americans are far more enthusiastic and comfortable with a presidential candidate who is gay than who is an evangelical Christian.

As the Republican presidential candidate field grows rapidly, and as the GOP panders to the Christian right – promising to "defend traditional marriage" and the "assault of religious freedom," political strategists might want to take a look at the latest WSJ/NBC poll.

Asked how they would feel about presidential candidates with certain qualities or characteristics, far more Americans said they would "be enthusiastic" or "be comfortable with" a candidate who is gay than a candidate who is an evangelical Christian.

A very large majority, 61 percent, said they would be enthusiastic or comfortable with a gay candidate, while just 52 percent said the same of an evangelical Christian.

On the opposite side, just 37 percent said they would "have some reservations about" or "be very uncomfortable with" a gay candidate, while 44 percent said the same of an evangelical Christian.

The poll also found just 33 percent of Americans supportive of a Tea Party candidate, and just 30 percent supportive of a candidate with no political experience.

The poll was conducted with 1000 Americans at the end of April.


Source

I'm *extremely* skeptical of this poll result. I wonder if the one thousand Americans polled were from all across the country in a proportional demographic (including the South/ Bible Belt). I don't think that's the case, as it's a WSJ/NBC poll, so there's possibly liberal volunteer bias.

I'd obviously be much happier to see a gay president than a religious nutjob in the White House, but the number of deeply religious Americans is still overwhelming.

One can certainly be optimistic, though! I think we could possibly get there within 50 years.

Actually, I think this poll is probably accurate. There are a lot of people on the right that don't care whether someone is gay,
always_winter
Profile Joined February 2015
United States195 Posts
May 07 2015 13:23 GMT
#38605
Haha haha not a chance!

Have we already forgotten the pizza parlor in Indiana, the go fund me page to support it, the degenerates in Washington protesting the Supreme Court case.... and that's not even the deep South!

Guys, I appreciate the humor, but let's be real with ourselves. Survey data is some of the least empirically valid data.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
May 07 2015 14:01 GMT
#38606
On May 07 2015 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
Americans Far More Comfortable With Gay Presidential Candidate Than Evangelical Christian

A new poll finds the vast majority of Americans are far more enthusiastic and comfortable with a presidential candidate who is gay than who is an evangelical Christian.

As the Republican presidential candidate field grows rapidly, and as the GOP panders to the Christian right – promising to "defend traditional marriage" and the "assault of religious freedom," political strategists might want to take a look at the latest WSJ/NBC poll.

Asked how they would feel about presidential candidates with certain qualities or characteristics, far more Americans said they would "be enthusiastic" or "be comfortable with" a candidate who is gay than a candidate who is an evangelical Christian.

A very large majority, 61 percent, said they would be enthusiastic or comfortable with a gay candidate, while just 52 percent said the same of an evangelical Christian.

On the opposite side, just 37 percent said they would "have some reservations about" or "be very uncomfortable with" a gay candidate, while 44 percent said the same of an evangelical Christian.

The poll also found just 33 percent of Americans supportive of a Tea Party candidate, and just 30 percent supportive of a candidate with no political experience.

The poll was conducted with 1000 Americans at the end of April.


Source

I'm *extremely* skeptical of this poll result. I wonder if the one thousand Americans polled were from all across the country in a proportional demographic (including the South/ Bible Belt). I don't think that's the case, as it's a WSJ/NBC poll, so there's possibly liberal volunteer bias.

I'd obviously be much happier to see a gay president than a religious nutjob in the White House, but the number of deeply religious Americans is still overwhelming.

One can certainly be optimistic, though! I think we could possibly get there within 50 years.

You should look at the primary source.

Their poll has opinions running -13 for Republicans and +2 for Democrats, which does indicate their poll skewed liberal. The question for likely voter only ran 40-39 in favor of Democrats, although Clinton easily trounced all the big GOP names for hypothetical presidential votes and ironically Rand Paul comes closest at 44-47, which means their sample of Republicans might not be terribly representative of the mainstream GOP either.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
May 07 2015 14:23 GMT
#38607
I think of it more that the people who answer those polls may represent the general landscape of the population, in that group of people, many won't bother voting.
Yargh
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
May 07 2015 14:28 GMT
#38608
On May 07 2015 22:23 always_winter wrote:
Haha haha not a chance!

Have we already forgotten the pizza parlor in Indiana, the go fund me page to support it, the degenerates in Washington protesting the Supreme Court case.... and that's not even the deep South!

Guys, I appreciate the humor, but let's be real with ourselves. Survey data is some of the least empirically valid data.


I love this. I'm not sure about the survey, haven't checked the sources, though the finding is plausible.

But then to say "survey data is some of the least empirically valid data" and to back it up with... anecdotes? Yes, that's the foundation of science: disregard surveys, acquire anecdotes! This one pizza shop owner is a homophobe, guys!
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44365 Posts
May 07 2015 15:05 GMT
#38609
On May 07 2015 23:01 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2015 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Americans Far More Comfortable With Gay Presidential Candidate Than Evangelical Christian

A new poll finds the vast majority of Americans are far more enthusiastic and comfortable with a presidential candidate who is gay than who is an evangelical Christian.

As the Republican presidential candidate field grows rapidly, and as the GOP panders to the Christian right – promising to "defend traditional marriage" and the "assault of religious freedom," political strategists might want to take a look at the latest WSJ/NBC poll.

Asked how they would feel about presidential candidates with certain qualities or characteristics, far more Americans said they would "be enthusiastic" or "be comfortable with" a candidate who is gay than a candidate who is an evangelical Christian.

A very large majority, 61 percent, said they would be enthusiastic or comfortable with a gay candidate, while just 52 percent said the same of an evangelical Christian.

On the opposite side, just 37 percent said they would "have some reservations about" or "be very uncomfortable with" a gay candidate, while 44 percent said the same of an evangelical Christian.

The poll also found just 33 percent of Americans supportive of a Tea Party candidate, and just 30 percent supportive of a candidate with no political experience.

The poll was conducted with 1000 Americans at the end of April.


Source

I'm *extremely* skeptical of this poll result. I wonder if the one thousand Americans polled were from all across the country in a proportional demographic (including the South/ Bible Belt). I don't think that's the case, as it's a WSJ/NBC poll, so there's possibly liberal volunteer bias.

I'd obviously be much happier to see a gay president than a religious nutjob in the White House, but the number of deeply religious Americans is still overwhelming.

One can certainly be optimistic, though! I think we could possibly get there within 50 years.

You should look at the primary source.

Their poll has opinions running -13 for Republicans and +2 for Democrats, which does indicate their poll skewed liberal. The question for likely voter only ran 40-39 in favor of Democrats, although Clinton easily trounced all the big GOP names for hypothetical presidential votes and ironically Rand Paul comes closest at 44-47, which means their sample of Republicans might not be terribly representative of the mainstream GOP either.


Awesome, thanks!
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 07 2015 15:16 GMT
#38610
Scoring higher than Evangelical Christian (enthusiastic/comfortable)? That would be the only other religious group mentioned in that section: A Catholic. (Atheists ... too toxic still?)

The results are rather expected for the most part. No generic christian on the list to contrast religious sentiment with sexual orientation.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44365 Posts
May 07 2015 15:19 GMT
#38611
On May 08 2015 00:16 Danglars wrote:
Scoring higher than Evangelical Christian (enthusiastic/comfortable)? That would be the only other religious group mentioned in that section: A Catholic. (Atheists ... too toxic still?)

The results are rather expected for the most part. No generic christian on the list to contrast religious sentiment with sexual orientation.


I don't think those results would be interesting or surprising though.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-07 16:26:08
May 07 2015 16:24 GMT
#38612
Ok, so, to those who read this thread continuously, it will come as no surprise that I think state governments have a severe problem with how their legislatures operate, particularly when it comes to how dominantly Republican state legislatures routinely shit the bed in managing things like public university financials. Here's an excellent example of something similar happening in New York state, and the results are interesting to say the least.

ALBANY — Democrats walked out of the New York State Senate in protest on Wednesday after Republicans blocked their effort to oust the majority leader, Dean G. Skelos, following his arrest on federal corruption charges.

It was a tempestuous scene: With Senator Skelos absent from the chamber, his colleagues squabbled over parliamentary procedures, clarified the proper terminology to describe the senator’s legal troubles and — in the view of some members — insulted a championship high school basketball team.

The quarreling concluded with dueling declarations. As a Democratic senator denounced the Republicans, a Senate official simultaneously read a resolution commending the basketball team — the boys’ varsity from Shenendehowa High School in Clifton Park, near Albany.

Democratic senators hoped that by seeking a vote to remove Mr. Skelos from his position, they would add to the pressure on his fellow Republican senators by at least requiring them to take a public position on the matter.

“The people of New York are entitled to know where their senators stand on this critical issue right now,” said Senator Michael N. Gianaris of Queens, the deputy minority leader, who led the effort to force a vote on the Senate floor.

The chaos unfolded two days after Mr. Skelos, whose district is on Long Island, and his son, Adam B. Skelos, were arrested. The senator is accused of using his influence to generate income for the younger man, including by extorting a real estate developer that eventually arranged a lucrative consulting job for Adam Skelos at an environmental company.

The day started with a hint of conspiracy: Democrats accused the Republican majority of withholding audiovisual equipment for the news conference that the Democrats had organized to announce their plans. (A spokesman for the Republicans denied any nefarious intent.)

The Senate session otherwise would have been filled largely with warm feelings. It was West Point Day, for one thing. With a number of cadets and the academy’s superintendent in attendance, the session began with a series of senators rising to pay tribute to their service.

Then came a resolution to honor a Democratic former senator from Queens, George Onorato, who died in February. But before it could be considered, Democrats sought to suspend the Senate rules in order to permit a vote on a resolution removing Mr. Skelos as leader.

After some parliamentary wrangling — and raised voices — the senator who was presiding over the chamber, Jack M. Martins, a Long Island Republican, turned back their effort.

“There are rules in this house,” Mr. Martins said. “We do not substitute those rules on a whim.”

Democrats tried again later in the session, when it was time for a resolution honoring the Shenendehowa basketball team. Once again, shouting ensued.

“You cannot single-handedly make up the rules,” Mr. Gianaris chastised Mr. Martins, as the Senate official read the text of a resolution congratulating the team.

Senate Democrats then left the chamber en masse, leaving Republicans to express regret to their high school guests.

“Please accept my apologies for the lack of decorum demonstrated by my colleagues in the chamber today,” Mr. Martins said.

Another senator, Hugh T. Farley, a Republican from the capital region who was first elected to the Senate in 1976, said he had never seen such “rudeness” in the chamber.

A spokeswoman for the Senate Republicans, Kelly Cummings, criticized the Democrats’ actions as political in nature. “The liberal, progressive Democrats no longer believe in the presumption of innocence, and that is dangerous to all of our freedoms, including their own,” Ms. Cummings said in a statement.

Senator Skelos has proclaimed his innocence and has derided the criminal complaint as “nothing more than a press release.” His Republican colleagues decided on Monday night that he would remain as majority leader.

But Mr. Skelos’s fate is far from assured. Several Republican senators have said he should step down as leader, as have newspaper editorial boards around the state. Republican senators will spend the next several days in their districts, where they could face questions about their continued support for Mr. Skelos. The Senate is scheduled to reconvene on Monday, and Democrats have promised to try again.


Acrimony in Albany as Senate Republicans Stop Effort to Oust Skelos
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
May 07 2015 16:41 GMT
#38613
Same thing would happen in any state R or D where there is a 1-seat majority that would flip control of the state house/senate.

Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-07 17:07:45
May 07 2015 16:58 GMT
#38614
On May 07 2015 21:16 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2015 05:52 Millitron wrote:
On May 06 2015 05:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 05 2015 23:37 ticklishmusic wrote:
On May 05 2015 13:34 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 05 2015 13:05 ticklishmusic wrote:
On May 05 2015 12:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 05 2015 12:56 ticklishmusic wrote:
On May 05 2015 12:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On May 05 2015 12:22 oneofthem wrote:
i've read it and it says epa's estimate is in the tens of billions range from mercury


The EPA rule that is directly at issue before the Justices will cost the industry, it has said, some $9.6 billion a year, which, the companies contend, will buy very little public health benefit — $4 million to $6 million, at most. EPA has conceded the annual cost for the companies, but it estimates that this will yield — in dollar terms — benefits between $37 billion and $90 billion annually. - See more at: http://www.scotusblog.com/2015/03/argument-preview-epa-on-the-defensive-again/#sthash.fVfrDGsy.dpuf



seems rather wild to claim that the epa would agree to a 6m figure for non-co2 pollutants. there's nothing in that link about the amount from carbon you gotta come up withs omething else

Not saying that's the case here, but the EPA does put out benefit estimates that are, to be kind, speculative.


The EPA's mandate is human health, finances don't play any role in it IIRC? Whitman vs American Trucking.

Finances? I'm talking about their benefit estimates. You just cited some in your previous post.


Wrong guy, first time chiming in on this issue

While I can accept that benefit estimates are probably off because the criteria for what is actually a benefit is so subjective, it's kind of a no brainer that reducing our reliance on coal is probably good for the environment.

It seems on one end the energy companies are using a number that only includes the bare benefits, like x less tons of carbon released times whatever the credit value per ton is, while the EPA does some estimate that includes x number of people don't get ill, their increased productivity, reduced medical costs, etc. The reality is hard to quantify, but going under the EPA's court approved mandate this is all just some finger waggling and semantics more or less. The reality is, far as I understand, as long as the EPA can pull out some scientific evidence that coal is bad (which is easy as making a pb&j), they don't necessarily need to quantify *how* bad it is (financially).

whoops, my bad, it's late here.

I've read before that the epa will do things like extrapolate from what is known, into what is unknown. So pollution above x level is known to have a negative health effect. EPA lowers pollution below x and assumes the benefits are tangible, even though there is no scientific evidence that the benefit exists.


What do you mean extrapolate from known into unknown?

The PPM limits and all that jazz probably have some basis in science--- it just becomes hard to quantify the financial benefit, and the fact there's a limit that takes practicality into account (because we ideally would have 0 sulfuric acid being emitted) is already reasonablish to me.

I'm not very versed in pollution health effects (was not covered in my immunology class, we went behind schedule), but IIRC there's a sort of logarithmic curve health quality/impacts plotted against pollution concentration, and the EPA tends to set the limit somewhere before the rapid increase. Of course, that's an idealized model with limitations etc. etc. etc. We can only really do so much research about it, the only real way to determine these inflection points (if they even exist) is to just monitor populations lol.

Let's say pollutant X the limit is established at 1000. How much "benefit" do you reap at say 500 vs 700 PPM? Both are under the limit, but how much better is 500 vs 700? Again, the criteria are subjective but ultimately irrelevant. The EPA has to regulate human health, cost benefit does not necessarily need to play a role in it. They already meet a standard of reasonableness with "practical" PPM limits.

By known to unknown I mean that some substances will be known to cause harm above a certain amount. In toxicology there's a common phrase: 'the dose makes the poison.' To give an example, fluoride is toxic in large doses, but it is also good for your teeth in small doses and so is added to toothpaste and drinking water.

As it relates to the EPA, things will be known to be harmful above a known threshold. When writing rules to limit those things below that known threshold, the EPA will assume that the benefits continue. In a case like that it is possible that there will be no benefits from a reduction, yet the benefits will still be added to the cost benefit analysis.

The EPA has also changed a lot of how they calculate benefits in the past few years and frankly many of their numbers seem unrealistically high, particularly since most air pollutants have already been substantially reduced. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
TE had a few articles on this a while back. Here's one:

+ Show Spoiler +
Measuring the impact of regulation
The rule of more

Rule-making is being made to look more beneficial under Barack Obama

IN DECEMBER Barack Obama trumpeted a new standard for mercury emissions from power plants. The rule, he boasted, would prevent thousands of premature deaths, heart attacks and asthma cases. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) reckoned these benefits were worth up to $90 billion a year, far above their $10 billion-a-year cost. Mr Obama took a swipe at past administrations for not implementing this “common-sense, cost-effective standard”.

A casual listener would have assumed that all these benefits came from reduced mercury. In fact, reduced mercury explained none of the purported future reduction in deaths, heart attacks and asthma, and less than 0.01% of the monetary benefits. Instead, almost all the benefits came from concomitant reductions in a pollutant that was not the principal target of the rule: namely, fine particles.

The minutiae of how regulators calculate benefits may seem arcane, but matters a lot. When businesses complain that Mr Obama has burdened them with costly new rules, his advisers respond that those costs are more than justified by even higher benefits. His Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA), which vets the red tape spewing out of the federal apparatus, reckons the “net benefit” of the rules passed in 2009-10 is greater than in the first two years of the administrations of either George Bush junior or Bill Clinton.

But those calculations have been criticised for resting on assumptions that yield higher benefits and lower costs. One of these assumptions is the generous use of ancillary benefits, or “co-benefits”, such as reductions in fine particles as a result of a rule targeting mercury.

Mr Obama's advisers note that co-benefits have long been included in regulatory cost-benefit analysis. The logic is sound. For instance, someone may cycle to work principally to save money on fuel, parking or bus fares, but also to get more exercise. Both sorts of benefit should be counted.

The controversy arises from the overwhelming role that co-benefits play in assessing Mr Obama's rule-making. Fully two-thirds of the benefits of economically significant final rules reviewed by OIRA in 2010 were thanks to reductions in fine particles brought about by regulations that were actually aimed at something else, according to Susan Dudley of George Washington University, who served in OIRA under George Bush (see chart). That is double the share of co-benefits reported in Mr Bush's last year in office in 2008.

If reducing fine particles is so beneficial, it would surely be more transparent and efficient to target them directly. As it happens, federal standards for fine-particle concentrations already exist. But the EPA routinely claims additional benefits from reducing those concentrations well below levels the current law considers safe. That is dubious: a lack of data makes it much harder to know the effects of such low concentrations.

Another criticism of the Obama administration's approach is its heavy reliance on “private benefits”. Economists typically justify regulation when private market participants, such as buyers and sellers of electricity, generate costs—such as pollution—that the rest of society has to bear. But fuel and energy-efficiency regulations are now being justified not by such social benefits, but by private benefits like reduced spending on fuel and electricity.

Private benefits have long been used in cost-benefit analysis but Ms Dudley's data show that, like co-benefits, their importance has grown dramatically under Mr Obama. Ted Gayer of the Brookings Institution notes that private benefits such as reduced fuel consumption and shorter refuelling times account for 90% of the $388 billion in lifetime benefits claimed for last year's new fuel-economy standards for cars and light trucks. They also account for 92% and 70% of the benefits of new energy-efficiency standards for washing machines and refrigerators respectively.

The values placed on such private benefits are highly suspect. If consumers were really better off with more efficient cars or appliances, they would buy them without a prod from government. The fact that they don't means they put little value on money saved in the future, or simply prefer other features more. Mr Obama's OIRA notes that a growing body of research argues that consumers don't always make rational choices; Mr Gayer counters that regulators do not make appropriate use of that research in their calculations.

Under Mr Obama, rule-makers' assumptions not only enhance the benefits of rules but also reduce the costs. John Graham of Indiana University, who ran OIRA under Mr Bush, cites the new fuel-economy standards as an example. They assume that electric cars have no carbon emissions, although the electricity they use probably came from coal. They also assume less of a “rebound effect”—the tendency of people to drive more when their cars get better mileage—than was the case under Mr Bush.

Mr Bush's administration was sometimes accused of the opposite bias: understating benefits and overstating costs. At one point his EPA considered assigning a lower value to reducing the risk of death for elderly people since they had fewer years left to live; it eventually backed down. Mr Obama's EPA has considered raising the value of cutting the risk of death by cancer on the ground that it is a more horrifying way to die than others.

More consistent cost-benefit analysis would reduce such controversies. Michael Greenstone of the Hamilton Project, a liberal-leaning research group, thinks that could be done through the creation of a non-partisan congressional oversight body using the best evidence available to vet regulations, much as the Congressional Budget Office vets fiscal policy. It would also re-evaluate old regulations to see if the original analysis behind them was still valid. Rule-making would still require judgment, but it would be less subject to the whims of the people in power.


Link

That's called the Linear No-Threshold model, and while its currently how things work, there's plenty of legit criticism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold#Controversy

The wiki article only considers radiation exposure, but most of the criticisms hold up regardless of what kind of exposure you're talking about.

LNT is challenged because of the body's radiation damage repair and defense mechanism. it is very specific to certain types of ionizing radiation. there is dosage problem wtih every toxin but your last statement is misleading. not every type of chemical damage is protected by the body, and lead poisoning is one of those cases where LNT does apply.

most critically in the case of radiation low dosage empirical tests are not possible thus they rely on model projection, whereas for some chemicals empirical animal toxicology studies at low dosage could be performed. it's also dependent on a particular chemical's interaction with the body. hormonal substitutes may be powerfula t low dosage for example. either way, low dosage of lead is clearly damaging for the neurosystem.

http://www.tufts.edu/~skrimsky/PDF/Low-Dose Toxicology.pdf

But like we've been saying, once you're below the recommended safe dose, it's much less clear that even lower is better. If the recommended safe dose is 10 units, and you're at 8, it isn't very clear that 7 is even healthier.

On May 08 2015 01:24 farvacola wrote:
Ok, so, to those who read this thread continuously, it will come as no surprise that I think state governments have a severe problem with how their legislatures operate, particularly when it comes to how dominantly Republican state legislatures routinely shit the bed in managing things like public university financials. Here's an excellent example of something similar happening in New York state, and the results are interesting to say the least.

Show nested quote +
ALBANY — Democrats walked out of the New York State Senate in protest on Wednesday after Republicans blocked their effort to oust the majority leader, Dean G. Skelos, following his arrest on federal corruption charges.

It was a tempestuous scene: With Senator Skelos absent from the chamber, his colleagues squabbled over parliamentary procedures, clarified the proper terminology to describe the senator’s legal troubles and — in the view of some members — insulted a championship high school basketball team.

The quarreling concluded with dueling declarations. As a Democratic senator denounced the Republicans, a Senate official simultaneously read a resolution commending the basketball team — the boys’ varsity from Shenendehowa High School in Clifton Park, near Albany.

Democratic senators hoped that by seeking a vote to remove Mr. Skelos from his position, they would add to the pressure on his fellow Republican senators by at least requiring them to take a public position on the matter.

“The people of New York are entitled to know where their senators stand on this critical issue right now,” said Senator Michael N. Gianaris of Queens, the deputy minority leader, who led the effort to force a vote on the Senate floor.

The chaos unfolded two days after Mr. Skelos, whose district is on Long Island, and his son, Adam B. Skelos, were arrested. The senator is accused of using his influence to generate income for the younger man, including by extorting a real estate developer that eventually arranged a lucrative consulting job for Adam Skelos at an environmental company.

The day started with a hint of conspiracy: Democrats accused the Republican majority of withholding audiovisual equipment for the news conference that the Democrats had organized to announce their plans. (A spokesman for the Republicans denied any nefarious intent.)

The Senate session otherwise would have been filled largely with warm feelings. It was West Point Day, for one thing. With a number of cadets and the academy’s superintendent in attendance, the session began with a series of senators rising to pay tribute to their service.

Then came a resolution to honor a Democratic former senator from Queens, George Onorato, who died in February. But before it could be considered, Democrats sought to suspend the Senate rules in order to permit a vote on a resolution removing Mr. Skelos as leader.

After some parliamentary wrangling — and raised voices — the senator who was presiding over the chamber, Jack M. Martins, a Long Island Republican, turned back their effort.

“There are rules in this house,” Mr. Martins said. “We do not substitute those rules on a whim.”

Democrats tried again later in the session, when it was time for a resolution honoring the Shenendehowa basketball team. Once again, shouting ensued.

“You cannot single-handedly make up the rules,” Mr. Gianaris chastised Mr. Martins, as the Senate official read the text of a resolution congratulating the team.

Senate Democrats then left the chamber en masse, leaving Republicans to express regret to their high school guests.

“Please accept my apologies for the lack of decorum demonstrated by my colleagues in the chamber today,” Mr. Martins said.

Another senator, Hugh T. Farley, a Republican from the capital region who was first elected to the Senate in 1976, said he had never seen such “rudeness” in the chamber.

A spokeswoman for the Senate Republicans, Kelly Cummings, criticized the Democrats’ actions as political in nature. “The liberal, progressive Democrats no longer believe in the presumption of innocence, and that is dangerous to all of our freedoms, including their own,” Ms. Cummings said in a statement.

Senator Skelos has proclaimed his innocence and has derided the criminal complaint as “nothing more than a press release.” His Republican colleagues decided on Monday night that he would remain as majority leader.

But Mr. Skelos’s fate is far from assured. Several Republican senators have said he should step down as leader, as have newspaper editorial boards around the state. Republican senators will spend the next several days in their districts, where they could face questions about their continued support for Mr. Skelos. The Senate is scheduled to reconvene on Monday, and Democrats have promised to try again.


Acrimony in Albany as Senate Republicans Stop Effort to Oust Skelos

New Yorker here, this state is such a fucking joke. In the last gubernatorial election, both major candidates were under investigation for corruption. Governor Cuomo was being investigated for shutting down a committee which was supposed to be rooting out corruption in the state. He started that committee a few years ago, and then when they started investigating him and his cronies, he disbanded them.

Even when they aren't doing illegal things, they're pulling dishonest shit that should probably be illegal. In 2013, they passed the SAFE act, a ridiculously strict gun control bill that puts us on par with California. The thing is though, even if you're anti-gun, they did it in such a shady way its still bullshit. They passed the bill at around midnight after only like 20 minutes of discussion. They gave the public no warning that it was going to be up for vote, and they did it stealthily in the middle of the night. Even if you hate guns, you have to admit that that's sleazy as fuck.
Who called in the fleet?
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 07 2015 17:17 GMT
#38615
Sounds like you need to rewrite the state constitution to put in better safeguards.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
May 07 2015 17:23 GMT
#38616
On May 08 2015 02:17 zlefin wrote:
Sounds like you need to rewrite the state constitution to put in better safeguards.

A big problem with that is that NYC is a totally different culture than the rest of the state. Upstate NY is much more rural, and mostly conservative. NYC is obviously urban, and is very liberal. We don't get along at all. There's no way to keep both groups happy under the same constitution.

Take the SAFE act for example again. Only one district outside NYC voted in favor of it. And yet it still passed.
Who called in the fleet?
always_winter
Profile Joined February 2015
United States195 Posts
May 07 2015 18:05 GMT
#38617
On May 07 2015 23:28 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2015 22:23 always_winter wrote:
Haha haha not a chance!

Have we already forgotten the pizza parlor in Indiana, the go fund me page to support it, the degenerates in Washington protesting the Supreme Court case.... and that's not even the deep South!

Guys, I appreciate the humor, but let's be real with ourselves. Survey data is some of the least empirically valid data.


I love this. I'm not sure about the survey, haven't checked the sources, though the finding is plausible.

But then to say "survey data is some of the least empirically valid data" and to back it up with... anecdotes? Yes, that's the foundation of science: disregard surveys, acquire anecdotes! This one pizza shop owner is a homophobe, guys!


I love that you love this. One love, ya'll.

Difference here could be that I'm not actually submitting data as evidence, not making a blanketing statement on nationwide sentiment regarding a controversial issue, and by contrast am using said argument as the very basis of my disregard for such a silly study.

I don't know. I'm not a scientist.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 07 2015 18:09 GMT
#38618
On May 08 2015 02:23 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2015 02:17 zlefin wrote:
Sounds like you need to rewrite the state constitution to put in better safeguards.

A big problem with that is that NYC is a totally different culture than the rest of the state. Upstate NY is much more rural, and mostly conservative. NYC is obviously urban, and is very liberal. We don't get along at all. There's no way to keep both groups happy under the same constitution.

Take the SAFE act for example again. Only one district outside NYC voted in favor of it. And yet it still passed.


Just secede and become Western New York. I'm sure you won't miss the tax revenue.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 07 2015 18:10 GMT
#38619
On May 08 2015 02:23 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2015 02:17 zlefin wrote:
Sounds like you need to rewrite the state constitution to put in better safeguards.

A big problem with that is that NYC is a totally different culture than the rest of the state. Upstate NY is much more rural, and mostly conservative. NYC is obviously urban, and is very liberal. We don't get along at all. There's no way to keep both groups happy under the same constitution.

Take the SAFE act for example again. Only one district outside NYC voted in favor of it. And yet it still passed.


Well, one solution would be to split into two states.

Another would be to focus on making legislation that can have broad support, though that one is trickier.
Also, I'm sure you can keep both happy under the same constitution, constitutions are broad enough to do that, unlike laws.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
always_winter
Profile Joined February 2015
United States195 Posts
May 07 2015 18:16 GMT
#38620
Lol I had initially read the plausible bit as agreement with my conclusion, when in fact it seems you're suggesting the finding of this survey is plausible. Might be time to step out of that bubble. If you're suggesting a majority of Americans would prefer a gay president over an overly religious one, I'm afraid you're disconnected from reality.

If you're expecting me to back that up with empirical data (was this a joke or....?), I'm definitely not going to. Feel like that kinda goes without saying. Could just be me. I like to have context. Much love.
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