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On April 30 2015 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 08:07 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 30 2015 08:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 30 2015 07:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 30 2015 07:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 30 2015 07:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 30 2015 07:34 KwarK wrote:On April 30 2015 07:30 Millitron wrote:On April 30 2015 07:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 30 2015 07:14 Millitron wrote:
[quote]
I never said always. I find it very hard to believe though, that a significant number of police killings are as controversial as the few that have made the news lately. I'm sure some are not legitimate, but to claim that the number of killings alone, regardless of their legitimacy, is evidence that something is wrong is ridiculous.
Does Germany border a 3rd world country? Does Germany have a land-route to the drug fields of South America?
I think you're jumping to conclusions; that I think cops are all saints. I don't. They need better oversight. They should have mandatory cameras. The War on Drugs needs to end. They need to get rid of fines. But they're not all murdering, racist thugs either. Independent investigations too right? Which we all know is what we don't have in Baltimore? At least tell me that fact got through? Yeah, independent investigations too. On April 30 2015 07:20 puerk wrote:
I will never understand your weird fascination with survival of the fittest and admiration of warlords and similar or accompanying circumstances.
Your infividual actors are no different than elsewhere in the world, black gangsters are not genetically more violent than the russian mafia, vietnamese gangs (although they lost their territories here already in the nineties as far as i am aware, so they are less relevant), bulgarian mafia and our own homegrown crime syndicates.. be it rocker gangs, or the bouncers
your crime numbers are improving year after year as jonny makes a great effort about pointing out again and again, yet your police degenerates into ever more violence, over less and less actual crime happening. All I am saying is that it is possible that the police need to kill more here than the police in Germany. I am saying a comparison based solely on the total number is ridiculous. Germany had ~3000 traffic fatalities in 2013. The US had ~36000. Following your kind of logic, drivers in the US are horrible. Seriously? You're asking that question? Have you ever driven in Europe? Americans can't drive for shit. omg so racists  What I would give for American's to actually think we were a race I know right? Whenever I hear the words "screen door" or "submarine" I think of my Polish heritage and want to cry... and it's 2015 and stores still sell Polish remover T.T Keepin it classy as always Jonny. np, I thought the thread could use a little (bad) humor  Can we get some rape, cancer, and transgender jokes in poor taste too? It's been way too heavy lately, plus I wouldn't want them to feel left out that we aren't laughing at their situation too
Sure, I'll recommend Godfrey Elfwick's twitter.
+ Show Spoiler +
I haven't seen any cancer jokes there, but cancer gets enough attention on HS streams
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On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 08:17 puerk wrote:On April 30 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
Uh huh. That has got nothing to do with what I said. Which is that the comparison between the US and Germany, based solely on the number killed, is bullshit. It's such a complicated problem you can't just go "German police don't kill many people, ergo US police are out of control fascists."
They might be. I hate the prevalence of SWAT teams. I hate that the police get armored vehicles from the military. But there will still be more police killings in the US than in Germany, simply because of our size. And even if the militarization of the police is ended and SWAT teams are all disbanded, you may STILL see more killings, even on a per capita basis, because our situation is different. We have a different culture. We border a 3rd world country. We have other poor nations with easy smuggling range just across the Gulf of Mexico. Number of deaths is not the be all end all, but they are an indicator, you can not simply ignore. You on the other hand have this weird city on a hill surrounded by savages out to get you fantasy, that somehow justifies not even holding your police force accountable for how many shots they fired, when, where, how and why. - No, the United States are not struggling against insurmountable uncomparable geographic odds. - Germany doesn't need a 5000km land route to south american cocain production when primarily consumed illegal nonsubscribable drugs are cannabis, heroin and mdma. - You have no fucking clue about Eurasian drug-geography. - You have no fucking clue about the size of the area you are even talking about. If "just across the Gulf of Mexico" is close by, Germany is in the most dangerous region of the world surrounded by war in ukraine, dictatorship in belorus, civil war in north africa, the middle east, and not to forget chechnya and even your favorite boogyman iran is closer to my german hometown than Baltimore is to your ultimate destroyer of american livelyhoods Columbia. Ok lets break this down: 1) I have never defended how pisspoor police record keeping is.
You have defended police practices as necessary in the face of unique evil only your part of the world faces.
On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
2) You have no fucking clue about American drug-geography
Where did i make a wrong claim about it?
On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
3) You can see Cuba from Key West. It's not as far as you make it seem. I'm not talking about going from Colombia straight to Mississippi.
Stop shifting your goalposts. Cuba does not produce cocain in any recognizable quantity, you clearly stated "Does Germany have a land-route to the drug fields of South America?"
The existence of Cuba for US drugs is about as relevant as Lampedusa for Moroccan Hashish in Germany. None of your examples actually exemplifies the uniqueness you claim.
On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
4) None of those countries you mentioned want into Germany. All the strife in them is internal. But the cartels in Mexico and South America want access to the lucrative markets of the US.
Do you actually believe this?... seriously?
You think the EU is somehow not a "lucrative market" for drugs?
You think neither north african nor eastern european, nor central asian drug producers traffic into the EU and try to carve out their place in the value chain?
..
Holy fuck.
On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
Is it not possible that things are worse in the US for more reasons than just "Our cops are thugs."?
You do not seem to follow the discussion. My claim was not that the US is shit, i claimed that there is a disconnect in actual crime incidence and police response. Your claim was that the police response is appropriate for the crime level.
So if that disconnect that you deny exists than the reason for it is that there is an issue with your cops and not with your crime.
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It may as well be true that the US has a worse geography when it comes to crime, but people don't become criminals if they can avoid it. The difference is that in the US it seems like people who are poor get criminalized for completely minuscule stuff and then end up in some kind of endless cycle of poverty and criminality. For that to end I feel like the whole punishment mentality has to end and the focus has to become rehabilitation instead of constantly screwing already disadvantaged people over.
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On April 30 2015 08:21 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 07:42 KwarK wrote:On April 30 2015 07:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 30 2015 07:34 KwarK wrote:On April 30 2015 07:30 Millitron wrote:On April 30 2015 07:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 30 2015 07:14 Millitron wrote:On April 30 2015 07:08 Jormundr wrote:
So far you have posited:
-Always gunfights/car chases
-always murdering innocents
-Some unsubstantiated stuff about how gangs r tuffer in the US, dem boyz in blue gotta b strong
Hard to take you seriously.
I never said always. I find it very hard to believe though, that a significant number of police killings are as controversial as the few that have made the news lately. I'm sure some are not legitimate, but to claim that the number of killings alone, regardless of their legitimacy, is evidence that something is wrong is ridiculous. Does Germany border a 3rd world country? Does Germany have a land-route to the drug fields of South America? I think you're jumping to conclusions; that I think cops are all saints. I don't. They need better oversight. They should have mandatory cameras. The War on Drugs needs to end. They need to get rid of fines. But they're not all murdering, racist thugs either. Independent investigations too right? Which we all know is what we don't have in Baltimore? At least tell me that fact got through? Yeah, independent investigations too. On April 30 2015 07:20 puerk wrote:
I will never understand your weird fascination with survival of the fittest and admiration of warlords and similar or accompanying circumstances.
Your infividual actors are no different than elsewhere in the world, black gangsters are not genetically more violent than the russian mafia, vietnamese gangs (although they lost their territories here already in the nineties as far as i am aware, so they are less relevant), bulgarian mafia and our own homegrown crime syndicates.. be it rocker gangs, or the bouncers
your crime numbers are improving year after year as jonny makes a great effort about pointing out again and again, yet your police degenerates into ever more violence, over less and less actual crime happening. All I am saying is that it is possible that the police need to kill more here than the police in Germany. I am saying a comparison based solely on the total number is ridiculous. Germany had ~3000 traffic fatalities in 2013. The US had ~36000. Following your kind of logic, drivers in the US are horrible. Seriously? You're asking that question? Have you ever driven in Europe? Americans can't drive for shit. omg so racists I'm sure if you guys required the same amount of study and lessons as I had to do in Europe and hadn't turned the roads into some kind of insane ego fuelled arms race you'd be fine. This idea that road safety is only achieved by being the biggest most aggressive vehicle on the road is pretty nuts. So many trucks  I don't know if study and lessons is the key to be honest. I did chuckle at the "insane ego fuelled arms race" and aggressive driving hyperbole. It's a good break from these race politics and law enforcement arguments.
I'd fully support Finnish style driving school regulations. Especially living in a place line MN it should be absolutely mandatory. en.wikipedia.org
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Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0
This might be a big deal. Apparently millions of dollars have been donated to a Clinton foundation from Russian Uranium interests. And some of that money was donated shortly before the sale of a major Uranium producer to Russia, which was signed off on by Hillary Clinton's State Department. Not only that, but she is still receiving donations from Russian businessmen, which is against US laws. Basically, the Russians donate to that foundation, which in turn donates to her campaign. It's money laundering basically.
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Aside from the legality, what's wrong with it? I thought you were all about the free flow of capital?
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On April 30 2015 08:40 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:On April 30 2015 08:17 puerk wrote:On April 30 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
Uh huh. That has got nothing to do with what I said. Which is that the comparison between the US and Germany, based solely on the number killed, is bullshit. It's such a complicated problem you can't just go "German police don't kill many people, ergo US police are out of control fascists."
They might be. I hate the prevalence of SWAT teams. I hate that the police get armored vehicles from the military. But there will still be more police killings in the US than in Germany, simply because of our size. And even if the militarization of the police is ended and SWAT teams are all disbanded, you may STILL see more killings, even on a per capita basis, because our situation is different. We have a different culture. We border a 3rd world country. We have other poor nations with easy smuggling range just across the Gulf of Mexico. Number of deaths is not the be all end all, but they are an indicator, you can not simply ignore. You on the other hand have this weird city on a hill surrounded by savages out to get you fantasy, that somehow justifies not even holding your police force accountable for how many shots they fired, when, where, how and why. - No, the United States are not struggling against insurmountable uncomparable geographic odds. - Germany doesn't need a 5000km land route to south american cocain production when primarily consumed illegal nonsubscribable drugs are cannabis, heroin and mdma. - You have no fucking clue about Eurasian drug-geography. - You have no fucking clue about the size of the area you are even talking about. If "just across the Gulf of Mexico" is close by, Germany is in the most dangerous region of the world surrounded by war in ukraine, dictatorship in belorus, civil war in north africa, the middle east, and not to forget chechnya and even your favorite boogyman iran is closer to my german hometown than Baltimore is to your ultimate destroyer of american livelyhoods Columbia. Ok lets break this down: 1) I have never defended how pisspoor police record keeping is. You have defended police practices as necessary in the face of unique evil only your part of the world faces. Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
2) You have no fucking clue about American drug-geography Where did i make a wrong claim about it? Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
3) You can see Cuba from Key West. It's not as far as you make it seem. I'm not talking about going from Colombia straight to Mississippi.
Stop shifting your goalposts. Cuba does not produce cocain in any recognizable quantity, you clearly stated "Does Germany have a land-route to the drug fields of South America?" The existence of Cuba for US drugs is about as relevant as Lampedusa for Moroccan Hashish in Germany. None of your examples actually exemplifies the uniqueness you claim. Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
4) None of those countries you mentioned want into Germany. All the strife in them is internal. But the cartels in Mexico and South America want access to the lucrative markets of the US. Do you actually believe this?... seriously? You think the EU is somehow not a "lucrative market" for drugs? You think neither north african nor eastern european, nor central asian drug producers traffic into the EU and try to carve out their place in the value chain? .. Holy fuck. Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
Is it not possible that things are worse in the US for more reasons than just "Our cops are thugs."? You do not seem to follow the discussion. My claim was not that the US is shit, i claimed that there is a disconnect in actual crime incidence and police response. Your claim was that the police response is appropriate for the crime level. So if that disconnect that you deny exists than the reason for it is that there is an issue with your cops and not with your crime.
My claim was that the police might have to kill more people here than in Germany. That's it. That is all I claimed.
Did you see that chart about Chicago? Do you really have any places that bad in Germany?
On April 30 2015 08:44 Jormundr wrote:
Aside from the legality, what's wrong with it? I thought you were all about the free flow of capital?
It's corrupt as hell for a politician to make money on the side like that. Its basically selling the country out. It's a disgusting conflict of interest. I can't stand the influence American moneyed interests have via campaign finance, let alone Russian moneyed interests.
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On April 30 2015 08:42 Millitron wrote:Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0This might be a big deal. Apparently millions of dollars have been donated to a Clinton foundation from Russian Uranium interests. And some of that money was donated shortly before the sale of a major Uranium producer to Russia, which was signed off on by Hillary Clinton's State Department. Not only that, but she is still receiving donations from Russian businessmen, which is against US laws. Basically, the Russians donate to that foundation, which in turn donates to her campaign. It's money laundering basically.
Whatever gives Bernie Sanders a better chance.
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On April 30 2015 08:42 Millitron wrote:Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0This might be a big deal. Apparently millions of dollars have been donated to a Clinton foundation from Russian Uranium interests. And some of that money was donated shortly before the sale of a major Uranium producer to Russia, which was signed off on by Hillary Clinton's State Department. Not only that, but she is still receiving donations from Russian businessmen, which is against US laws. Basically, the Russians donate to that foundation, which in turn donates to her campaign. It's money laundering basically.
Are you sure the Clinton Foundation founds Clinton's campaign? That sounds wrong for so many reasons (and I therefore doubt it is actually true). Isn´t the Clinton Foundation the Clinton´s charity organization? Sure, structured a bit differently than the WWF or so, but you can donate money to it, and expect that money to help build schools in Tanzania (or wherever Bill's plane just crashlanded), not fund Hillary's political campaign.
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On April 30 2015 08:40 Nyxisto wrote:
It may as well be true that the US has a worse geography when it comes to crime, but people don't become criminals if they can avoid it. The difference is that in the US it seems like people who are poor get criminalized for completely minuscule stuff and then end up in some kind of endless cycle of poverty and criminality. For that to end I feel like the whole punishment mentality has to end and the focus has to become rehabilitation instead of constantly screwing already disadvantaged people over. I understand the cycles of criminalization and rehabilitation. However, I don't know how far you're going to get if you think everybody avoids crime in their natural state, and the existence of law-breakers is only as far as their best efforts to avoid crime have failed. I would think the course of history would argue against it.
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On April 30 2015 08:50 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 08:42 Millitron wrote:Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0This might be a big deal. Apparently millions of dollars have been donated to a Clinton foundation from Russian Uranium interests. And some of that money was donated shortly before the sale of a major Uranium producer to Russia, which was signed off on by Hillary Clinton's State Department. Not only that, but she is still receiving donations from Russian businessmen, which is against US laws. Basically, the Russians donate to that foundation, which in turn donates to her campaign. It's money laundering basically. Are you sure the Clinton Foundation founds Clinton's campaign? That sounds wrong for so many reasons (and I therefore doubt it is actually true). Isn´t the Clinton Foundation the Clinton´s charity organization? Sure, structured a bit differently than the WWF or so, but you can donate money to it, and expect that money to help build schools in Tanzania (or wherever Bill's plane just crashlanded), not fund Hillary's political campaign.
Even if it doesn't go directly to her campaign, it's still influencing her. The article comes right out and says millions of dollars of donations from Russian uranium interests have not been reported, which is illegal, and that many of the donations were made with the intent to influence Hillary.
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On April 30 2015 08:45 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 08:40 puerk wrote:On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:On April 30 2015 08:17 puerk wrote:On April 30 2015 07:53 Millitron wrote:
Uh huh. That has got nothing to do with what I said. Which is that the comparison between the US and Germany, based solely on the number killed, is bullshit. It's such a complicated problem you can't just go "German police don't kill many people, ergo US police are out of control fascists."
They might be. I hate the prevalence of SWAT teams. I hate that the police get armored vehicles from the military. But there will still be more police killings in the US than in Germany, simply because of our size. And even if the militarization of the police is ended and SWAT teams are all disbanded, you may STILL see more killings, even on a per capita basis, because our situation is different. We have a different culture. We border a 3rd world country. We have other poor nations with easy smuggling range just across the Gulf of Mexico. Number of deaths is not the be all end all, but they are an indicator, you can not simply ignore. You on the other hand have this weird city on a hill surrounded by savages out to get you fantasy, that somehow justifies not even holding your police force accountable for how many shots they fired, when, where, how and why. - No, the United States are not struggling against insurmountable uncomparable geographic odds. - Germany doesn't need a 5000km land route to south american cocain production when primarily consumed illegal nonsubscribable drugs are cannabis, heroin and mdma. - You have no fucking clue about Eurasian drug-geography. - You have no fucking clue about the size of the area you are even talking about. If "just across the Gulf of Mexico" is close by, Germany is in the most dangerous region of the world surrounded by war in ukraine, dictatorship in belorus, civil war in north africa, the middle east, and not to forget chechnya and even your favorite boogyman iran is closer to my german hometown than Baltimore is to your ultimate destroyer of american livelyhoods Columbia. Ok lets break this down: 1) I have never defended how pisspoor police record keeping is. You have defended police practices as necessary in the face of unique evil only your part of the world faces. On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
2) You have no fucking clue about American drug-geography Where did i make a wrong claim about it? On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
3) You can see Cuba from Key West. It's not as far as you make it seem. I'm not talking about going from Colombia straight to Mississippi.
Stop shifting your goalposts. Cuba does not produce cocain in any recognizable quantity, you clearly stated "Does Germany have a land-route to the drug fields of South America?" The existence of Cuba for US drugs is about as relevant as Lampedusa for Moroccan Hashish in Germany. None of your examples actually exemplifies the uniqueness you claim. On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
4) None of those countries you mentioned want into Germany. All the strife in them is internal. But the cartels in Mexico and South America want access to the lucrative markets of the US. Do you actually believe this?... seriously? You think the EU is somehow not a "lucrative market" for drugs? You think neither north african nor eastern european, nor central asian drug producers traffic into the EU and try to carve out their place in the value chain? .. Holy fuck. On April 30 2015 08:27 Millitron wrote:
Is it not possible that things are worse in the US for more reasons than just "Our cops are thugs."? You do not seem to follow the discussion. My claim was not that the US is shit, i claimed that there is a disconnect in actual crime incidence and police response. Your claim was that the police response is appropriate for the crime level. So if that disconnect that you deny exists than the reason for it is that there is an issue with your cops and not with your crime. My claim was that the police might have to kill more people here than in Germany. That's it. That is all I claimed. Did you see that chart about Chicago? Do you really have any places that bad in Germany? Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 08:44 Jormundr wrote:
Aside from the legality, what's wrong with it? I thought you were all about the free flow of capital? It's corrupt as hell for a politician to make money on the side like that. Its basically selling the country out. It's a disgusting conflict of interest. I can't stand the influence American moneyed interests have via campaign finance, let alone Russian moneyed interests.
Wait, now Chicagos crime explosion in the 90s is the reason the police in Baltimore, Florida, Arizona, Texas, etc. have to kill people that are no danger and could be easily deescalated by competent trained police forces with an actual culture of serving and protecting every citizen?
The police forces are local, the states laws are different, but behaviour and culture of the police indicates a serious disregard for citicens lives im many localities, as Kwark explained and i fully agree with.
You use the failure that is Chicago to justify the killing of people. The "us vs them"-rethoric, the disregard for human life, the loss of principle and loss of strive for civility makes no sense.
German police makes many mistakes, and can improve in many areas, but i would never claim they are forced into those mistakes because we literally had a war and a genocide closer to Munich during the nineties when the acutal crime explosion in Chicago happened, than Baltimore is to Chicago.
And soon you will claim that even with 10s of thousands of war refugees germany was somehow more isolated from that incident than Baltimore was insulated from Chicago crime developments.
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Puerk, I don't think you're being fair to millitron, or helpful to the conversation.
You repeatedly misrepresent what he says; please stick to what he's actually saying, instead of heavily interpreting it.
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You are right, i went over the top and ran away with the plot of that discussion. I hope i can better myself.
In an attempt to clarify and simplify my stance:
- i reread old posts by millitron and he seems to agree that there are cultural issues with US police enforcing the law, both in effectiveness as in moral wellfoundedness, although we probably heavily disagree on the role of the state in a society
- there is no justification for law enforcement shortcommings, but there can be explanations (budget issues, hiring and training practices, racism) on which we seem to agree at least widely enough
- more crime under the same law enforcement regimen necessarily forces more police response, but it does not force more killings of suspects, bystanders, or people that only got into a tangential altercation with police.
- geographic circumstances play a much much smaller role than he claimed, as crime is falling but police brutality is not
- Germany has to deal with crime, German police is supposed to be held accountable for their use of force, and doing a recogniceably better job at that than the problematic police forces discussed at length in this thread, so why distract from exactly those issues (and what can be learned from them regarding the purpose and supervision of police) to some weird spiel on who has worse drug connection geographies?
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On April 30 2015 05:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 04:44 ZasZ. wrote:On April 30 2015 04:30 Sermokala wrote:On April 30 2015 04:13 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2015 04:04 Sermokala wrote:
The quote in my post mentioned people not waiting for due process or an investigation. A lack of information doesn't give people the right to treat their assumptions as fact.
Gh are you saying you don't understand what I'm saying or that you don't understand why that is how policy is? That's fine, but I don't see why you are defending their actions or trying to justify the victim had a broken spine. Even the chief of police has said the officers acted improperly, did not follow procedure and failed to get him medical attention. Hate and anger doesn't help anyone. Understanding the situation and using your empathy to help even the worst of us change just a little can make all the difference. Well protesting peacefully was obviously not getting the results we are looking for i.e. less dead black people by police officers. It's easy for us to be like "whoa, violence and rioting is wrong," when we aren't the ones who have been on this end of it, until now. It would have been like England telling the 13 colonies that they don't like "our tone," after the Boston massacre. And then decrying violence and civil disturbance at the outbreak of the revolution. Sure, it's easy for them to say, but at a certain point violence really is the only answer. Does rioting now improve the perception of black people by police in this country? Probably not, but what they were doing before obviously wasn't working either. I'm not familiar with Baltimore. Was there a history of trying and failing to reform the police?
Back to a point that was brought up pages and pages ago at this point, but rioting is the only thing that even put the police brutality in Baltimore into the national consciousness. There had been about two weeks of peaceful protesting, as members of the community were awaiting an explanation for how the kid whose spine was severed and whose voice box was crushed suffered those wounds in police custody. None of that mattered. Pretending like peaceful protests that appeal to a corrupt system for reform through a corrupt power structure actually work is putting your head in the sand. Rioting probably has almost no effect on the "perception of black people" in this country. It's just a polarizing lens which exposes people's biases through their reaction to said rioting.
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On April 30 2015 09:42 puerk wrote:
You are right, i went over the top and ran away with the plot of that discussion. I hope i can better myself.
In an attempt to clarify and simplify my stance:
- i reread old posts by millitron and he seems to agree that there are cultural issues with US police enforcing the law, both in effectiveness as in moral wellfoundedness, although we probably heavily disagree on the role of the state in a society
- there is no justification for law enforcement shortcommings, but there can be explanations (budget issues, hiring and training practices, racism) on which we seem to agree at least widely enough
- more crime under the same law enforcement regimen necessarily forces more police response, but it does not force more killings of suspects, bystanders, or people that only got into a tangential altercation with police.
- geographic circumstances play a much much smaller role than he claimed, as crime is falling but police brutality is not
- Germany has to deal with crime, German police is supposed to be held accountable for their use of force, and doing a recogniceably better job at that than the problematic police forces discussed at length in this thread, so why distract from exactly those issues (and what can be learned from them regarding the purpose and supervision of police) to some weird spiel on who has worse drug connection geographies?
I've only casually looked at the numbers you posted, but it looked like crime and police violence are related to each other. Keep in mind that crime is usually reported as a rate (murders per X population) and the justified killings figures are not.
The only rate figures were in http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ph98.pdf which showed:
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72070179/pkrate.PNG)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72070179/jhrate.PNG)
Which to me looks like an improving trend related to crime. I'd have to do the calculations myself to see if that trend continued (and I'm too lazy). From the other figures you posted it looks (again, casually without math) like the justified killings stabilized into the 2000's.
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On April 30 2015 09:46 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 05:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 30 2015 04:44 ZasZ. wrote:On April 30 2015 04:30 Sermokala wrote:On April 30 2015 04:13 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2015 04:04 Sermokala wrote:
The quote in my post mentioned people not waiting for due process or an investigation. A lack of information doesn't give people the right to treat their assumptions as fact.
Gh are you saying you don't understand what I'm saying or that you don't understand why that is how policy is? That's fine, but I don't see why you are defending their actions or trying to justify the victim had a broken spine. Even the chief of police has said the officers acted improperly, did not follow procedure and failed to get him medical attention. Hate and anger doesn't help anyone. Understanding the situation and using your empathy to help even the worst of us change just a little can make all the difference. Well protesting peacefully was obviously not getting the results we are looking for i.e. less dead black people by police officers. It's easy for us to be like "whoa, violence and rioting is wrong," when we aren't the ones who have been on this end of it, until now. It would have been like England telling the 13 colonies that they don't like "our tone," after the Boston massacre. And then decrying violence and civil disturbance at the outbreak of the revolution. Sure, it's easy for them to say, but at a certain point violence really is the only answer. Does rioting now improve the perception of black people by police in this country? Probably not, but what they were doing before obviously wasn't working either. I'm not familiar with Baltimore. Was there a history of trying and failing to reform the police? Back to a point that was brought up pages and pages ago at this point, but rioting is the only thing that even put the police brutality in Baltimore into the national consciousness. There had been about two weeks of peaceful protesting, as members of the community were awaiting an explanation for how the kid whose spine was severed and whose voice box was crushed suffered those wounds in police custody. None of that mattered. Pretending like peaceful protests that appeal to a corrupt system for reform through a corrupt power structure actually work is putting your head in the sand. Rioting probably has almost no effect on the "perception of black people" in this country. It's just a polarizing lens which exposes people's biases through their reaction to said rioting.
And why does this event need to be in the national consciousness? That Baltimore has a shitty, corrupt, and brutal police department is a Baltimore problem that has to be solved by Baltimore.
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On April 30 2015 09:42 puerk wrote:
You are right, i went over the top and ran away with the plot of that discussion. I hope i can better myself.
In an attempt to clarify and simplify my stance:
- i reread old posts by millitron and he seems to agree that there are cultural issues with US police enforcing the law, both in effectiveness as in moral wellfoundedness, although we probably heavily disagree on the role of the state in a society
- there is no justification for law enforcement shortcommings, but there can be explanations (budget issues, hiring and training practices, racism) on which we seem to agree at least widely enough
- more crime under the same law enforcement regimen necessarily forces more police response, but it does not force more killings of suspects, bystanders, or people that only got into a tangential altercation with police.
- geographic circumstances play a much much smaller role than he claimed, as crime is falling but police brutality is not
- Germany has to deal with crime, German police is supposed to be held accountable for their use of force, and doing a recogniceably better job at that than the problematic police forces discussed at length in this thread, so why distract from exactly those issues (and what can be learned from them regarding the purpose and supervision of police) to some weird spiel on who has worse drug connection geographies?
I think given the state of US prisons, there may still be more killings per capita than in Germany. The whole "You'll never take me alive" thing might be more common if surrender is less appealing. I don't know much about prison in Germany, but I'm pretty sure its less horrible than prison in the US. The more brutal prison is, the less incentive there is for criminals to not escalate confrontations with police. I also wonder about the frequencies of different crimes in the US and Germany. Maybe part of the reason more suspects are killed in the US is that suspects are more frequently arrested for more serious offenses?
Also, rampant recidivism. With our horrible recidivism rates, many more suspects are hardened criminals. I don't think it's a stretch to make the assumption that hardened criminals are more likely to resist violently than first offenders.
I only brought up the drug stuff because I really hate the idea that our situations are so similar that all you need to look at to make a judgement is a total number of deaths. Germany and the US are very different places, and such general comparisons are basically pointless.
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Millitron -> killing per capita in Germany are about 1/6 of the US rate.
edit: changed ratio
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On April 30 2015 10:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 09:46 IgnE wrote:On April 30 2015 05:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 30 2015 04:44 ZasZ. wrote:On April 30 2015 04:30 Sermokala wrote:On April 30 2015 04:13 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2015 04:04 Sermokala wrote:
The quote in my post mentioned people not waiting for due process or an investigation. A lack of information doesn't give people the right to treat their assumptions as fact.
Gh are you saying you don't understand what I'm saying or that you don't understand why that is how policy is? That's fine, but I don't see why you are defending their actions or trying to justify the victim had a broken spine. Even the chief of police has said the officers acted improperly, did not follow procedure and failed to get him medical attention. Hate and anger doesn't help anyone. Understanding the situation and using your empathy to help even the worst of us change just a little can make all the difference. Well protesting peacefully was obviously not getting the results we are looking for i.e. less dead black people by police officers. It's easy for us to be like "whoa, violence and rioting is wrong," when we aren't the ones who have been on this end of it, until now. It would have been like England telling the 13 colonies that they don't like "our tone," after the Boston massacre. And then decrying violence and civil disturbance at the outbreak of the revolution. Sure, it's easy for them to say, but at a certain point violence really is the only answer. Does rioting now improve the perception of black people by police in this country? Probably not, but what they were doing before obviously wasn't working either. I'm not familiar with Baltimore. Was there a history of trying and failing to reform the police? Back to a point that was brought up pages and pages ago at this point, but rioting is the only thing that even put the police brutality in Baltimore into the national consciousness. There had been about two weeks of peaceful protesting, as members of the community were awaiting an explanation for how the kid whose spine was severed and whose voice box was crushed suffered those wounds in police custody. None of that mattered. Pretending like peaceful protests that appeal to a corrupt system for reform through a corrupt power structure actually work is putting your head in the sand. Rioting probably has almost no effect on the "perception of black people" in this country. It's just a polarizing lens which exposes people's biases through their reaction to said rioting. And why does this event need to be in the national consciousness? That Baltimore has a shitty, corrupt, and brutal police department is a Baltimore problem that has to be solved by Baltimore.
"supposedly" it's a national trend.
when in reality it's a geographic trend where there's large amount of concentration of people in the lower socioeconomic ladder.
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