EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 1760
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Lord Tolkien
United States12084 Posts
On March 24 2015 04:51 oneofthem wrote: going back in history for how far? someone at the western propaganda department deserves a raise. At this point I'm not sure if you're trolling or being serious here. You've used the word propaganda in this thread more times than I've heard it in probably half a year. Sino-Japanese relations, as well as Korean-Japanese relations, have been deteriorating as of late because Abe, but anti-Japanese sentiment has run high and remained high since WWII, for justifiable reasons. Doesn't prevent them from cooperating, or for Japan to be the biggest investor in China since Tiananmen, or for the following: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/21/us-southkorea-china-japan-idUSKBN0MH02Q20150321 | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
but china also has active propaganda against japan and nyxisto's talking points resemble the chinese story. it is just a successful case of publicizing and framing? | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Lord Tolkien
United States12084 Posts
On March 24 2015 05:23 oneofthem wrote: uh i am very far from a fan of japan and japanese nationalists are pretty frustrating and may prove dangerous. talking about combining bad media with bad politics, japan cant be beaten. but china also has active propaganda against japan and nyxisto's talking points resemble the chinese story. it is just a successful case of publicizing and framing? ...given South Korea has had very strained relations with Abe's Japan as of late (Neither Abe nor Park Geun-hye have met for the entire two years they've been in office concurrently; Abe and Xi Jinping have at least met a few times), no, it's not just China. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 24 2015 05:23 oneofthem wrote: uh i am very far from a fan of japan and japanese nationalists are pretty frustrating and may prove dangerous. talking about combining bad media with bad politics, japan cant be beaten. but china also has active propaganda against japan and nyxisto's talking points resemble the chinese story. it is just a successful case of publicizing and framing? Well maybe as a German I'm just a little overly sensible to the different ways Japan and Germany have dealt with their history of the last century but I'd not be the first person to criticise Japan's handling of history. And the 'pacifist constitution' is something that Japan's current government would really love to get rid off, they've made this pretty clear. I don't think what I'm saying is close to propaganda or anything, I just think there is a big disparity between what 'the West' demands of other countries when it comes to tolerating military strength and projection of force and what we actually tolerate. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On March 24 2015 05:34 oneofthem wrote: given ccp expropriation of antijapan war credit from the nationalist govt doing most of the actual fighting vs japan, what is sacred may not be japan hate but ccp love Haha, yep. These were my second favorite propaganda panels at the war museum. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 24 2015 05:35 Lord Tolkien wrote: ...given South Korea has had very strained relations with Abe's Japan as of late (Neither Abe nor Park Geun-hye have met for the entire two years they've been in office concurrently; Abe and Xi Jinping have at least met a few times), no, it's not just China. it is definitely a lot of japan but the stuff about a china reclaiming its historic and unjustly deprived rights is china | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12084 Posts
On March 24 2015 05:34 oneofthem wrote: given ccp expropriation of antijapan war credit from the nationalist govt doing most of the actual fighting vs japan, what is sacred may not be japan hate but ccp love The current CCP stance on wartime contribution is that the CCP and the KMT did a "roughly equal" share of the fighting, so no, this is false. The memory of Japanese occupation in WWII and atrocities still run very thick despite close economic ties. Same in South Korea. Abe's currently leading a rightward shift in Japanese politics, and has been tied with the revisionist movement in Japan, and recently you've been having shit like this: http://thediplomat.com/2015/03/did-japan-just-change-its-attitude-toward-south-korea/ On March 24 2015 05:41 oneofthem wrote: it is definitely a lot of japan but the stuff about a china reclaiming its historic and unjustly deprived rights is china And which rights are these exactly? | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the nationalist govt under kmt was far more than "half" of the fight against japan and simply denying china's propaganda on this crucial founding myth is quite dishonest | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
Well maybe as a German I'm just a little overly sensible to the different ways Japan and Germany have dealt with their history of the last century but I'd not be the first person to criticise Japan's handling of history. And the 'pacifist constitution' is something that Japan's current government would really love to get rid off, they've made this pretty clear. This is none of your business, unless somehow your sense of Germanness demands that you export the idea of "Vergangenheitsbewältigung" to the world. America has a better chance of making a democracy out of Afghanistan than you have of proselytising the Asians. It is simply not in the cards. Asian historical consciousness is completely different from the Western mindset. On Japan, I will say that having briefly surveyed the history of the Sino-Japanese War mainly through the excellent collection of essays in the Cambridge Japanese History collection, I have rather changed my own view about the Sino-Japanese war, and I am inclined to think that the Chinese must share a great deal of the blame for its outbreak in 1937. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On March 24 2015 02:31 MoltkeWarding wrote: You can always win an argument by defining yourself into the right; what matters though is the substance of the argument. oneofthem argues that power cannot be analysed on a basis of value-neutrality. Yet the things that he posits as tipping the scale of "value" for the US are value-neutral in themselves. Freedom of expression begs the question of what I will say with my freedom. The right to vote begs the question of who I will vote into power with my right. If you say that political and intellectual pluralism are goods in themselves, then you must explain why this is an inherent good on the domestic level, and not so on the international level, (i.e. political multipolarity, ideological conflict.) I was not commenting on the rest of the debate you're engaged in with oneofthem but on the two sentences I quoted in my post. Like I said, the type of regime and political structure which characterizes the Chinese state has very much to do with that state's considerable degree of indifference to human rights (in particular political rights). I'm not sure why you would claim the opposite. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Sometimes US Pol is frustrating and full of vitriol, so why don't we all unwind with a humorous Netanyahu ad. His political strategists decided that humor was more likely to draw attention rather than 'just another political ad.' | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/03/israeli-pm-regrets-offending-arab-israelis-poll-150323180931654.html I gave this guy a few months until people realize that he was being hyperbolic during the election, looks like he admitted his fear mongering sooner. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 24 2015 04:44 Lord Tolkien wrote: Japan is a tricky subject for everyone in East Asia (China and Koreas especially). Fun demography facts! Japan's population is projected to decline to 2/3rd its current numbers by 2100, and China will fall behind India as the most populated country in the world in just over 5 years. Japan isn't a tricky subject, it's fairly simple, everyone hates them for a bunch of dickish moves from the past. | ||
KwarK
United States44448 Posts
On March 24 2015 01:17 xDaunt wrote: Here's some of my favorite Chinese propaganda from the War Museum in Beijing: "After Britain started the Opium war in 1840, the imperial powers descended on China like a swarm of bees, looting our treasures and killing our people. They forced the Qing government to sign a series of unequal treaties that granted them economic, political, and cultural privileges and sank China gradually into a semi-colonial, semi-feudal society. The contradictions between imperialism and the Chinese nation and between feudalism and the broad masses of the people became the primary contradictions in modern Chinese society. Achieving national independence and liberation of the people, and making the country strong and prosperous and the people happy became the two great historic missions of the Chinese nation throughout its modern history." "Building socialism in China is the inevitable outcome of the course of modern Chinese history. The central collective leadership of the CPC, with Comrade Mao Zedong at its core, led the people of all China's ethnic groups on the road of socialist industrialization, innovatively completed socialist transformation, and put a complete basic socialist system in place. The victory of the new-democratic revolution and the creation of a basic socialist system provided the basic political conditions and instituional basis for all of contemporary China's development and progress." I wonder if Chinese students hear about that time that Jesus' younger brother made a heavenly kingdom devoted to opium and having sex with a bunch of women at the same time and how the Manchu Qing rulers were pretty much unable to do anything about it until Britain intervened to save the Chinese after they'd already killed 20,000,000 of their own people. I mean sure the Opium Wars don't make the Western powers look good but it's not like everything was fine in China before then either. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12084 Posts
On March 24 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote: Japan isn't a tricky subject, it's fairly simple, everyone hates them for a bunch of dickish moves from the past. bit more complicated than that, usually involving the current minority of ultranationalists and the shit they do regarding denying WWII responsibility. School textbooks in Japan are a recurrent issue in East Asian relations. Abe is doing shit like trying to retract the apology for comfort women, and other such antics which have not gone over well in either South Korea or China. Hence currently tense East Asia relations and escalations over disputed islands with Japan. http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21605935-excuse-inexcusable-japan-again-resorts-obfuscation-looking-loopholes | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 24 2015 14:35 Lord Tolkien wrote: bit more complicated than that, usually involving the current minority of ultranationalists and the shit they do regarding denying WWII responsibility. School textbooks in Japan are a recurrent issue in East Asian relations. Abe is doing shit like trying to retract the apology for comfort women, and other such antics which have not gone over well in either South Korea or China. Hence currently tense East Asia relations and escalations over disputed islands with Japan. http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21605935-excuse-inexcusable-japan-again-resorts-obfuscation-looking-loopholes All of which stems from Japan being giant assholes in the past. You can see these cultural strifes slowly losing hold on the younger generation, often adopting a lot of Japanese pop culture (especially true in the early 2000's). Now it's a problem of old people who lived through these times being unable to move forwards causing unneeded strife for everyone else. Essentially an old person dick measuring contest. | ||
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