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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1654

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-18 19:35:26
February 18 2015 19:16 GMT
#33061
illegal immigrants are not eligible for federal programs. at the state and local level, undocumented immigrants use medical and other social services at a lower rate. but they do not have insurance, so the actual cost is pretty inflated due to emergency room charge.

the cost of healthcare for undocumented immigrants accounts for about 1.5% of overall medicare cost despite making up 3% of population. (rand study from your friendly miltary industrial complex, http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/25/6/1700 )

education of immigrant children costs about 3-4% of the public education expenditure at aggregate, with much higher social and economic return. (Becera, 2012) This paper also has analysis of cost of law enforcement etc and immigrants have lower or same crime rates as natives.

for income aassistance benefits, immigrants have lower rate of use than citizens.

http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/poor-immigrants-use-public-benefits-lower-rate-poor



as far as economic impact is concerned, working immigrants are always positive by basic economic theory. multiplier and so on.


also found this one on colorado
https://bellpolicy.org/content/undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes-equal-services
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23427 Posts
February 18 2015 20:16 GMT
#33062
On February 19 2015 03:32 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2015 03:24 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wait, you're telling me that the US curriculum currently skips over subjects that paint your country in a negative light?

Is this a nationwide thing or only a few specific states?


No, the current AP test portrays the US in a very negative light in many ways. Some nationalists want to change that. Also, generally, almost nothing controversial in the US is nationwide unless it's established by the courts. State-by-state is the usual way of things. AP tests are something of an exception, since they're run by a monopoly. Hardly a conservative one, most would agree.


The current AP test is not required and a different test could be administered, also could you cite an example of what you think on 'the test' is "portray[ing] the US in a very negative light" in an unfair way?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
February 18 2015 21:01 GMT
#33063
On February 19 2015 05:16 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2015 03:32 Yoav wrote:
On February 19 2015 03:24 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wait, you're telling me that the US curriculum currently skips over subjects that paint your country in a negative light?

Is this a nationwide thing or only a few specific states?


No, the current AP test portrays the US in a very negative light in many ways. Some nationalists want to change that. Also, generally, almost nothing controversial in the US is nationwide unless it's established by the courts. State-by-state is the usual way of things. AP tests are something of an exception, since they're run by a monopoly. Hardly a conservative one, most would agree.


The current AP test is not required and a different test could be administered, also could you cite an example of what you think on 'the test' is "portray[ing] the US in a very negative light" in an unfair way?


Did he say it was unfair? The AP test can (and should) be portraying the U.S. in a negative light on many topics, and that would be completely fair. I don't think we should still feel guilty for something our grandfather's grandfathers did, but sugarcoating the past so that you think U.S. history is all puppies and rainbows won't help anyone and just makes nationalism worse. The U.S. participated in its fair share of atrocities, kids should learn about it in school the way it actually happened, and we should all move on and do better.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23427 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-18 21:26:47
February 18 2015 21:05 GMT
#33064
On February 19 2015 06:01 ZasZ. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2015 05:16 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 19 2015 03:32 Yoav wrote:
On February 19 2015 03:24 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wait, you're telling me that the US curriculum currently skips over subjects that paint your country in a negative light?

Is this a nationwide thing or only a few specific states?


No, the current AP test portrays the US in a very negative light in many ways. Some nationalists want to change that. Also, generally, almost nothing controversial in the US is nationwide unless it's established by the courts. State-by-state is the usual way of things. AP tests are something of an exception, since they're run by a monopoly. Hardly a conservative one, most would agree.


The current AP test is not required and a different test could be administered, also could you cite an example of what you think on 'the test' is "portray[ing] the US in a very negative light" in an unfair way?


Did he say it was unfair? The AP test can (and should) be portraying the U.S. in a negative light on many topics, and that would be completely fair. I don't think we should still feel guilty for something our grandfather's grandfathers did, but sugarcoating the past so that you think U.S. history is all puppies and rainbows won't help anyone and just makes nationalism worse. The U.S. participated in its fair share of atrocities, kids should learn about it in school the way it actually happened, and we should all move on and do better.


Well it just sounded like an objection to a truth so I was seeing if his belief was that it did it in an unfair or intentionally derogatory (for the sake of it) way.

You can't learn a remotely comprehensive history of a nation without stumbling on things that they did wrong or with evil outcomes. So the fact that it happens is nothing to complain about.

EDIT: I was still a bit groggy when I read it so I think I misunderstood his comment. I guess the question would stand for those who oppose a more even handed telling of history.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15723 Posts
February 18 2015 23:22 GMT
#33065
Lol, this whole ap history thing is getting worse and worse. Those of you defending it earlier, how about now? http://thinkprogress.org/education/2015/02/18/3624062/oklahoma-bill-banning-ap-us-history-make-students-study-ten-commandments-3-speeches-reagan/
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 18 2015 23:26 GMT
#33066
On February 19 2015 01:35 oneofthem wrote:
this guilt thing is just a rightwing narrative against 'liberal elite education.' been going on since the 1980's.

readers of wf buckley would know


it's been going on a lot longer than that; Richard Hofstadter wrote about it in 1966.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 18 2015 23:49 GMT
#33067
(Bloomberg) -- Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, facing a $283 million deficit that needs to be closed by the end of June, will skip more than $100 million in debt payments to balance the books thrown into disarray by his tax cuts.

The move comes as Walker, 47, mounts a 2016 bid for the Republican presidential nomination, and while his state is under stress from a projected shortfall that could exceed $2 billion in the two-year budget beginning in July.

Delaying the $108 million principal payment due in May on short-term debt would free funds. The move doesn’t require legislative approval, the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau said in a Feb. 13 memorandum. The terms of the debt sale allow Wisconsin to defer the payment in any given year, a procedure known as a restructuring, without defaulting.

“They need some cash,” said Todd Berry, president of the Wisconsin Taxpayers Alliance, a nonpartisan research group that examines taxes and government spending. “This is kicking the can down the road.”

A spokesman for the Wisconsin Department of Administration said the state is taking advantage of “favorable short-term interest rates” for the restructuring.

“With these types of notes, the maturity schedule and amortization is determined solely by the state, unlike a traditional bond,” said Cullen Werwie.

Werwie also noted in an email that Walker’s predecessor, Democratic Governor Jim Doyle, “utilized similar financial tools.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-19 00:03:14
February 19 2015 00:02 GMT
#33068
On February 19 2015 08:26 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2015 01:35 oneofthem wrote:
this guilt thing is just a rightwing narrative against 'liberal elite education.' been going on since the 1980's.

readers of wf buckley would know


it's been going on a lot longer than that; Richard Hofstadter wrote about it in 1966.

true. the stuff about liberals trying to brainwash kids into guilt is kind of buckley territory tho
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
February 19 2015 00:08 GMT
#33069
On February 19 2015 08:22 Mohdoo wrote:
Lol, this whole ap history thing is getting worse and worse. Those of you defending it earlier, how about now? http://thinkprogress.org/education/2015/02/18/3624062/oklahoma-bill-banning-ap-us-history-make-students-study-ten-commandments-3-speeches-reagan/

Lol, you should have read the primary sources when I posted them. They list out all the documents they wanted the curriculum to include. I can't wait for a liberal blog to do another "gotcha" by pointing out the list include a couple of George W Bush's speeches and try to milk this issue a little more.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-19 00:25:48
February 19 2015 00:24 GMT
#33070
On February 19 2015 09:02 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2015 08:26 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2015 01:35 oneofthem wrote:
this guilt thing is just a rightwing narrative against 'liberal elite education.' been going on since the 1980's.

readers of wf buckley would know


it's been going on a lot longer than that; Richard Hofstadter wrote about it in 1966.

true. the stuff about liberals trying to brainwash kids into guilt is kind of buckley territory tho


I still remember before I went off to university for the 1st time my conservative grandmother warned me about "those evil liberal professors" and how they will corrupt you etc etc. I like that argument because it implies that everyone who is a scientist and teaches at a university is liberal because I guess conservatives are morons who can't become scientists?

But seriously there are tons of conservative people in academia so I don't get why academia is associated exclusively with liberals.
Never Knows Best.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
February 19 2015 00:36 GMT
#33071
Because some conservatives have become so conservative that they think simply describing reality makes you a liberal.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4850 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-19 01:14:41
February 19 2015 01:13 GMT
#33072
Huh? Academia has significantly more self-identified liberals than conservatives, though the size of the majority varies from department to department. I think the social sciences are the most lopsided, and that's what is most referred to, it seems.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
February 19 2015 01:33 GMT
#33073
On February 19 2015 08:22 Mohdoo wrote:
Lol, this whole ap history thing is getting worse and worse. Those of you defending it earlier, how about now? http://thinkprogress.org/education/2015/02/18/3624062/oklahoma-bill-banning-ap-us-history-make-students-study-ten-commandments-3-speeches-reagan/

To be totally fair, our laws are based pretty heavily on the Ten Commandments. A history curriculum that didn't cover the Ten Commandments would be pretty lacking.
Who called in the fleet?
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
February 19 2015 01:48 GMT
#33074
On February 19 2015 04:16 oneofthem wrote:
illegal immigrants are not eligible for federal programs. at the state and local level, undocumented immigrants use medical and other social services at a lower rate. but they do not have insurance, so the actual cost is pretty inflated due to emergency room charge.

the cost of healthcare for undocumented immigrants accounts for about 1.5% of overall medicare cost despite making up 3% of population. (rand study from your friendly miltary industrial complex, http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/25/6/1700 )

education of immigrant children costs about 3-4% of the public education expenditure at aggregate, with much higher social and economic return. (Becera, 2012) This paper also has analysis of cost of law enforcement etc and immigrants have lower or same crime rates as natives.

for income aassistance benefits, immigrants have lower rate of use than citizens.

http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/poor-immigrants-use-public-benefits-lower-rate-poor



as far as economic impact is concerned, working immigrants are always positive by basic economic theory. multiplier and so on.


also found this one on colorado
https://bellpolicy.org/content/undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes-equal-services

Illegal aliens will qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit, and if they've been working for three years prior in the US, they'll be eligible for those years too. That's the IRS Commissioner. As Sessions says,
These are not tax “refunds” but direct, free cash payments from the U.S. treasury to low-income illegal immigrants who owe no taxes. It is a dramatic cash transfer from lawful residents to unlawful residents, required by the president's imperial amnesty.

There can be no legal or moral justification for rewarding illegal entrants in this way. Not only is it unfair to strapped taxpayers, but it will encourage countless more to enter the U.S. illegally or to illegally overstay their visas.


Argue what you want about social security, but the second these illegals start paying taxes, they qualify for that federal benefit as well. Same for Medicare. Just like natural born citizens or legal immigrants, it's expected that over their lifetime they'll withdraw more in benefits than they paid into the system. Critique how ass-backward the inventors of these systems designed them, but regardless, that's two more federal benefits.

Look to the legal experts for this one, but no way do promises about excluded benefits to illegals granted legal status hold up in court. Second class citizenship arguments will be litigated and will find their way to the highest court. All the current pretty language and promises will be thrown out.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-19 02:04:07
February 19 2015 02:03 GMT
#33075
that's well and fine. they should get the tax benefits if they are working.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 19 2015 03:25 GMT
#33076
PITTSBURGH (AP) — An appeals court has ruled that the birth control coverage required by federal health care reforms does not violate the rights of several religious groups because they can seek reasonable accommodations.

Two western Pennsylvania Catholic dioceses and a private Christian college had challenged the birth control coverage mandates and won lower-court decisions. However, the U.S. 3rd Circuit Court ruling Wednesday said the reforms place "no substantial burden" on the religious groups and therefore don't violate their First Amendment rights.

All three groups — the college and the Pittsburgh and Erie dioceses — are mulling whether to appeal to the entire 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals or the U.S. Supreme Court.

"Such a ruling should cause deep concern for anyone who cares about any First Amendment rights, especially the right to teach and practice a religious faith," Pittsburgh Bishop David Zubik said in a statement. "This decision says that the church is no longer free to practice what we preach."

At issue is an "accommodation" written into the Affordable Care Act that says religious organizations can opt out of directly providing and paying to cover medical services such groups would consider morally objectionable. In this case, that refers to all contraceptive and abortion services for the Catholic plaintiffs, and contraceptive services like the "week-after" pill and other medical coverage that Geneva College contends violate its anti-abortion teachings. The school in Beaver Falls is affiliated with the Reformed Presbyterian Church.

Justice Department lawyers have argued the accommodation solves the problem because it allows religious groups to opt out of directly providing such coverage. But the plaintiffs contend that merely filing the one-page form, which puts a religious group's objections on record with the government, violates their rights because it still "facilitates" or "triggers" a process that then enables third-party insurers to provide the kind of coverage to which they object.

The appellate opinion written by Judge Marjorie O. Rendell rejects that reasoning.

"Federal law, rather than any involvement by the appellees in filling out or submitting the self-certification form, creates the obligation" for third parties to offer the objected-to coverage, Rendell wrote.

The opinion says the form merely provides a way for the religious groups to avoid being penalized for opting not to directly provide the benefits. But the groups have argued the form does more than that if the third-party providers can't provide the services before the form is filed. That question is expected to be raised in future appeals.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
February 19 2015 03:33 GMT
#33077
On February 19 2015 10:13 Introvert wrote:
Huh? Academia has significantly more self-identified liberals than conservatives, though the size of the majority varies from department to department. I think the social sciences are the most lopsided, and that's what is most referred to, it seems.

It's hard to identify as an American conservative and an intellectual at the same time. There is nothing idiotic about conservatism, Leo Strauss, Edmund Burke, Hayek, and Schumpeter are all respectable individuals, but the modern American conservatism is so insane, that you got conservatives such as Andrew Sullivan, Francis Fukuyama, and Christopher Buckley giving their support to the Democrats. That is really saying something about our "liberals"
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
February 19 2015 03:36 GMT
#33078
On February 19 2015 12:33 Shiragaku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2015 10:13 Introvert wrote:
Huh? Academia has significantly more self-identified liberals than conservatives, though the size of the majority varies from department to department. I think the social sciences are the most lopsided, and that's what is most referred to, it seems.

It's hard to identify as an American conservative and an intellectual at the same time. There is nothing idiotic about conservatism, Leo Strauss, Edmund Burke, Hayek, and Schumpeter are all respectable individuals, but the modern American conservatism is so insane, that you got conservatives such as Andrew Sullivan, Francis Fukuyama, and Christopher Buckley giving their support to the Democrats. That is really saying something about our "liberals"

Really America has Liberal and Conservative backwards on most issues. Liberal used to mean libertarian.
Who called in the fleet?
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-19 03:52:37
February 19 2015 03:41 GMT
#33079
Liberalism is a very broad ideology with many variants, but what all liberal ideologies have in common is their support for elections, civil rights, freedom of press and religion, and free trade as well as owning private property. To say that there is one definition would be incorrect.
The modern Republicans and the TEA Party in particular do not fit any definition of liberalism due to their populism, moral politics, anti-secularism, and corporatism.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2015 03:47 GMT
#33080
On February 19 2015 12:36 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2015 12:33 Shiragaku wrote:
On February 19 2015 10:13 Introvert wrote:
Huh? Academia has significantly more self-identified liberals than conservatives, though the size of the majority varies from department to department. I think the social sciences are the most lopsided, and that's what is most referred to, it seems.

It's hard to identify as an American conservative and an intellectual at the same time. There is nothing idiotic about conservatism, Leo Strauss, Edmund Burke, Hayek, and Schumpeter are all respectable individuals, but the modern American conservatism is so insane, that you got conservatives such as Andrew Sullivan, Francis Fukuyama, and Christopher Buckley giving their support to the Democrats. That is really saying something about our "liberals"

Really America has Liberal and Conservative backwards on most issues. Liberal used to mean libertarian.


libertarian used to mean anarchist
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
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