US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1511

With today’s release of what is being shorthanded as the “torture report” (in reality, an executive summary less than one-tenth the size of the full classified document), America now has the printed consensus behind President Barack Obama’s August admission (for lack of a better word): “We tortured some folks.”

“While the Office of Legal Counsel found otherwise between 2002 and 2007, it is my personal conclusion that, under any common meaning of the term, CIA detainees were tortured,” said Sen. Diane Feinstein, D-Calif., chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

But, as noted in today’s release, the Bush OLC knew they were doing legal gymnastics. White House lawyers specifically asked the Attorney General for “a formal declination of prosecution, in advance” for anyone the US oversaw who employed the techniques we now all understand to be torture. They knew in advance that the acts that were illegal, so they asked — in advance — for a blanket amnesty.

They knew it was illegal then, so what does that mean today?

As is implied by Feinstein’s use of those dates, and was likely inferred by most who heard the president this summer, the summary of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence torture report is looking backward (something Obama pooh-poohed in his earliest days in office), with the assumption that after 2007, or at least after the 2009 handover at the White House, everything changed.

But it is the reference to the OLC findings — in the summary and in Feinstein’s statement — that sort of strips the insulation off that convenient construct.

The post-9/11 torture program is dated to a September 17, 2001, Memorandum of Notification (MON, aka the “Gloves Come Off” finding) — notably a day after Vice President Dick Cheney’s TV appearance with Tim Russert, where Cheney and Russert blithely concurred it was time for the US to embrace the “dark side” — which was used as cover and as the foundation for subsequent findings by the Bush Administration’s legal team.

But that 2001 finding doesn’t have an expiration date, and there is no evidence of an Obama-era finding that directly controverts the Gloves Come Off memorandum. In fact, there is evidence that the Obama administration continues to operate under that finding (or did until at least 2012).

The finding that authorized the torture program also authorized drone strikes without notable process or oversight. Just three days into office, Obama OK’d a strike inside Pakistan that reportedly killed 11 civilians, and over the course of 2009, the CIA — Obama’s CIA — conducted 52 drone strikes, killing hundreds.

CIA Personnel ‘Choking Up’ During Waterboarding

The waterboarding eventually induced "involuntary leg, chest and arm spasms." According to CIA records, “it seems the collective opinion that we should not go much further.” Several on the team were “profoundly affected,” “some to the point of tears and choking up.”

Humus, Pasta, Nuts and Raisins Rectally Infused

Several detainees, including Zubaydah, Marwan al-Jabbur, and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, underwent "rectal rehydration" or "rectal fluid resuscitation" -- and detainee Majid Klian's “lunch tray," made up of hummus, pasta with sauce, raisins and nuts, was "pureed" and rectally infused.

According to CIA medical officers, rectal infusions were partially used as a behavior control: "While IV infusion is safe and effective," an officer noted, "we were impressed with the ancillary effectiveness of rectal infusion."

On December 10 2014 09:13 oneofthem wrote:
torture doesn't look good no matter the context, forced feeding like that may violate the prisoner's deeply held dignity beliefs and whatnot, i suppose.

nevertheless, the torture program was stopped and not all of it was occuring in gitmo. it is pretty much standard CIA practice to have their torture houses overseas, and sometimes contracted to foreign affiliates.

it's highly dubious in effectiveness. they need to think harder about propaganda.

On December 10 2014 07:40 Nyxisto wrote:

Yeah, John McCain is such an evil American basher, screw his biased speech!

On December 10 2014 09:52 oneofthem wrote:
it is relevant insofar as describing gitmo's function. they have stopped the torturing but are stuck in limbo with respect to closing down the camp.

On December 10 2014 07:37 Gorsameth wrote:

'They were employed' is the only bit of it that im interested in.
I don't care how useful it was or wasn't. The fact that is happened at all is what matters. I'm sure (almost) every dictator, murderer, horror doctor, whatever that has done terrible crimes thought their reason was valid and worth the cost.

Our standards and morals are whats sets us above the "evil men" and no amount of justification will stop us from being just as bad when we do these things.

On December 10 2014 07:36 Sub40APM wrote:

Thats weird. People who are now in the line of sight of the Justice department as perjurers and torturers would like to defend themselves. But Danglers is right, they should be given their time in court. What are they, a random black guy or something?

On December 10 2014 09:58 IgnE wrote:


And the torture would start again if there were 1) another terrorist attack on US soil or 2) they thought they found someone planning an attack on US soil and had no other way to access the information. The very fact of its extra-legal location and protocols is what is offensive, not that it's detaining some real terrorists amongst its residents.

On December 10 2014 10:01 Danglars wrote:
Well, I guess we fundamentally disagree.

On December 10 2014 10:01 Danglars wrote:
Well, I guess we fundamentally disagree.

I applaud your brave stance to hear the other side.

Let me caution you though ... I don't know if you have proof that any of these accused CIA agents robbed a convenience store, assaulted the clerk, charged an officer, and grappled with his gun. Then, skin color aside, they might end up dead in a self defense shooting. But since I haven't heard the story, I'll have to assume you'll listen through to their stories of justifiable torture (hehehe) and lives saved ... in the interests of fairness.

On December 10 2014 09:54 Danglars wrote:
Not sure why you quoted, but McCain is one of the few Senate Republicans that doesn't even get a raised eyebrow for going against a RNC or conservative position. Him and Graham got famous in the Bush years for doing it, and doing it very vocally (compared to an equally bad Collins). So like ... business as usual.

On December 10 2014 09:58 IgnE wrote:


And the torture would start again if there were 1) another terrorist attack on US soil or 2) they thought they found someone planning an attack on US soil and had no other way to access the information. The very fact of its extra-legal location and protocols is what is offensive, not that it's detaining some real terrorists amongst its residents.

On December 10 2014 10:07 oneofthem wrote:

extra-legal is misleading with respect to gitmo, fairer with respect to foreign subsidiary places. they follow a different, military commission rule, not the civil code. there is some legitimate argument here about necessity of different rules given immediacy of threat and so on requiring responses.

the part about torture starting again is not argued for. will need to know the various justifications or motivations for torture. it's likely a mixed bag given the very lack of control at that time. i do think we have more control in place than just after 9/11.

On December 10 2014 10:09 IgnE wrote:


Considering that we are listening in on the world's conversations, yes we have achieved almost complete control. The stasi would be proud.

On December 10 2014 10:09 IgnE wrote:


Considering that we are listening in on the world's conversations, yes we have achieved almost complete control. The stasi would be proud.

On December 10 2014 09:25 IgnE wrote:


Irrelevant. Is that jonny or oneofthem posting?

On December 10 2014 10:04 Gorsameth wrote:

Yes if you believe torture is justifiable then we do disagree, so does most of humanity but hey their only filthy arabs right? barely even human.