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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8778 Posts
December 10 2014 01:33 GMT
#30221
On December 10 2014 10:13 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2014 10:09 IgnE wrote:
On December 10 2014 10:07 oneofthem wrote:
On December 10 2014 09:58 IgnE wrote:
On December 10 2014 09:52 oneofthem wrote:
it is relevant insofar as describing gitmo's function. they have stopped the torturing but are stuck in limbo with respect to closing down the camp.


And the torture would start again if there were 1) another terrorist attack on US soil or 2) they thought they found someone planning an attack on US soil and had no other way to access the information. The very fact of its extra-legal location and protocols is what is offensive, not that it's detaining some real terrorists amongst its residents.

extra-legal is misleading with respect to gitmo, fairer with respect to foreign subsidiary places. they follow a different, military commission rule, not the civil code. there is some legitimate argument here about necessity of different rules given immediacy of threat and so on requiring responses.

the part about torture starting again is not argued for. will need to know the various justifications or motivations for torture. it's likely a mixed bag given the very lack of control at that time. i do think we have more control in place than just after 9/11.


Considering that we are listening in on the world's conversations, yes we have achieved almost complete control. The stasi would be proud.

cute, but going blind is not an option in this world.


between going blind, and building data centers big enough to collect all - yes you read it correctly, again, all the traffic data of the internet of a year many times over, there must be something in between. a sweet spot you know.

something less scary, involving actual, and smart intelligence work on the ground and shit.

more data centers like the one in utah are on the way fyi.


and mad props for john mccain taking a well deserved dump on the currently ludicrious republican party stance on torture. indeed he should know best why torture is not the way to go.
fawns over the new helipad's rave reviews.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
December 10 2014 01:35 GMT
#30222
storing a backup is not equivalent to snooping into every email. it's to have some place to look when they conduct an investigation justified by specific, case by case information.

it's not like the physical world in which you can always find a person or an address (most of the time anyway).
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-12-10 01:41:20
December 10 2014 01:40 GMT
#30223
surveillance = storing backups, got it.
should rename to international backup agency.

here's a backup of you hiring a prostitute,
we keep it lying around just in case anyone
needs it...
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22705 Posts
December 10 2014 01:41 GMT
#30224
On December 10 2014 10:35 oneofthem wrote:
storing a backup is not equivalent to snooping into every email. it's to have some place to look when they conduct an investigation justified by specific, case by case information.

it's not like the physical world in which you can always find a person or an address (most of the time anyway).

Maybe people would be more comfortable with this if they could trust these intelligent organizations. To bad that's not happening again for a while.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8778 Posts
December 10 2014 01:45 GMT
#30225
it basically opens a massive door for potential abuse.

a candy shop for authorized intelligence personal accessing the data, with, let's say, ulterior motives - in the best case scenario.

in the worst? I don't even want to think about it what you can do with this kind of information. and therefore power.
fawns over the new helipad's rave reviews.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
December 10 2014 01:50 GMT
#30226
On December 10 2014 10:40 nunez wrote:
surveillance = storing backups, got it.
should rename to international backup agency.

here's a backup of you hiring a prostitute,
we keep it lying around just in case anyone
needs it...

the NSA has enough problems to deal with already, no time for looking at your choice of prostitutes.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
December 10 2014 01:51 GMT
#30227
On December 10 2014 10:40 nunez wrote:
surveillance = storing backups, got it.
should rename to international backup agency.

just like a chokehold is bad but a headlock is okay. As long we don't run out of new names everything is good.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-12-10 01:53:31
December 10 2014 01:52 GMT
#30228
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/12/meet-the-shrinks-who-helped-the-cia-torture.html
“Neither psychologist had any experience as an interrogator,” the report notes, “nor did either have specialized knowledge of al-Qa'ida, a background in counterterrorism, or any relevant cultural or linguistic expertise.” Despite their lack of experience in these key areas, Mitchell and Jessen “carried out inherently governmental functions, such as acting as liaison between the CIA and foreign intelligence services, assessing the effectiveness of the interrogation program, and participating in the interrogation of detainees in held in foreign government custody.”

With the backing of agency headquarters, Dr. Mitchell ordered Mr. Zubaydah stripped, exposed to cold and blasted with rock music to prevent sleep. Not only the F.B.I. agents but also C.I.A. officers at the scene were uneasy about the harsh treatment. Among those questioning the use of physical pressure, according to one official present, were the Thailand station chief, the officer overseeing the jail, a top interrogator and a top agency psychologist.

In 2006, the value of the CIA's base contract with the company formed by the psychologists with all options exercised was in excess of $180 million; the contractors received $81 million prior to the contract's termination in 2009. In 2007, the CIA provided a multi-year indemnification agreement to protect the company and its employees from legal liability arising out of the program. The CIA has since paid out more than $1 million pursuant to the agreement.


They literally had amateur scumbags as their primary go to torturers -- over objections of actual CIA agents. And they paid them a shit ton of money too because of course.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-12-10 01:59:37
December 10 2014 01:58 GMT
#30229
I don't know if the biggest problem about getting spaghetti stuffed up your rectum is that it is done by an amateur rather than a professional
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
December 10 2014 02:02 GMT
#30230
On December 10 2014 10:50 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2014 10:40 nunez wrote:
surveillance = storing backups, got it.
should rename to international backup agency.

here's a backup of you hiring a prostitute,
we keep it lying around just in case anyone
needs it...

the NSA has enough problems to deal with already, no time for looking at your choice of prostitutes.

i thank my lucky stars that i am the epitome of insignificance.
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
December 10 2014 02:08 GMT
#30231
from the looks of things it was a decision of certain higher ups hungry for results and particularly desirable results. torture is not a common practice for the rank and file agent.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
December 10 2014 02:45 GMT
#30232
What was abu-ghraib? Higher ups hungry for results?
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
December 10 2014 04:12 GMT
#30233
CIA has a pattern of lying to the public and the Senate on the efficacy of torture, contradicted by its own internal memorandums. http://www.vox.com/2014/12/9/7361091/cia-torture-bin-laden
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-12-10 04:19:37
December 10 2014 04:19 GMT
#30234
On December 10 2014 11:45 IgnE wrote:
What was abu-ghraib? Higher ups hungry for results?

well, it was really bad, but it's still an isolated incident early in the war. all the guys from that were very publicly disciplined.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 10 2014 04:21 GMT
#30235
TOPEKA - Gov. Sam Brownback plans to transfer $95 million from the state highway fund and cut the budgets of state agencies by 4 percent to help plug a budget deficit.

State agencies will see their budgets reduced by 4 percent from January through June, resulting in about $79 million in savings. The state will also transfer $201 million from dedicated funds, including the highway fund, into its general fund.

Together these moves will give the state about $280 million to plug its budget hole, which is projected to be $279 million by the end of June. Details of the changes can be found here.

“These first steps are a down payment in resolving the immediate budget issue,” Brownback said in a press release. “I look forward to presenting a full budget proposal and policy recommendations to the legislature in January. Our job now is to address this situation through good fiscal governance while maintaining our investment in education, sustaining funding for public safety and allowing T-WORKS (the state’s highway plan) to be completed.”

On the campaign trail, Brownback had repeatedly denied that allotments were a possibility for the current fiscal year.

The state will transfer $95 million from the highway fund, a dedicated fund that goes toward construction projects, and reduce the operating budget for the Department of Transportation by $7.8 million.

Secretary of Transportation Mike King promised last week that the state’s transportation projections already scheduled to begin in 2015 and 2016 would proceed as planned.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
December 10 2014 04:22 GMT
#30236
On December 10 2014 13:12 Sub40APM wrote:
CIA has a pattern of lying to the public and the Senate on the efficacy of torture, contradicted by its own internal memorandums. http://www.vox.com/2014/12/9/7361091/cia-torture-bin-laden


That should be obvious. Even the article Danglars links provides no real evidence, only a bald assertion that "torture works sometimes." Of course all the evidence is classified. Of course. We are just supposed to trust the torturers.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
December 10 2014 04:24 GMT
#30237
On December 10 2014 13:19 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2014 11:45 IgnE wrote:
What was abu-ghraib? Higher ups hungry for results?

well, it was really bad, but it's still an isolated incident early in the war. all the guys from that were very publicly disciplined.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/usa0604/1.htm

...the United States government has repeatedly sought to portray the abuse as an isolated incident...

In fact, the only exceptional aspect of the abuse at Abu Ghraib may have been that it was photographed. Detainees in U.S. custody in Afghanistan have testified that they experienced treatment similar to what happened in Abu Ghraib -- from beatings to prolonged sleep and sensory deprivation to being held naked -- as early as 2002. Comparable -- and, indeed, more extreme -- cases of torture and inhuman treatment have been extensively documented by the International Committee of the Red Cross and by journalists at numerous locations in Iraq outside Abu Ghraib.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
December 10 2014 04:32 GMT
#30238
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/fox-host-cia-torture-america-awesome

Danglers is much more attractive than I thought he was. Also, is a she.
"The Bush administration did what the American public wanted, and that was do whatever it takes to keep us safe. These terror tactics have been stopped because as a country we decided we are better than this," she said. "It’s not about democracy now. No, no. It’s about politics."

Tantaros then exploded and asserted several times that the U.S. is simply "awesome."

"The United States of America is awesome, we are awesome," she said. "We’ve closed the book on it, and we’ve stopped doing it. And the reason they want to have this discussion is not to show how awesome we are. This administration wants to have this discussion to show us how we’re not awesome."

"They apologized for this country, they don’t like this country, they want us to look bad. And all this does is have our enemies laughing at us, that we are having this debate again," Tantaros continued.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 10 2014 05:02 GMT
#30239
Rick Santorum won primaries and caucuses in 11 states in 2012, coming in a respectable second in the GOP presidential primary season. And Republicans have a history of bestowing their nomination on the next guy in line, usually an also-ran from the last contest.

Yet the former senator from Pennsylvania is rarely mentioned in the already feverish pre-game 2016 chatter among the political commentariat and the donor class.

That’s just the way he likes it. Or so he says.

“America loves an underdog. We’re definitely the underdog in this race,” he said in an interview Tuesday. Santorum added that being underestimated — again — “has given me a lot of latitude.”

His iconic sweater vests will likely make a return appearance. But Santorum 2.0 will be a very different presidential campaign than the one that came from almost nowhere to win the Iowa caucuses in an overtime decision, he vows.

“I get the game,” Santorum said.

Where he had to build his operation from the ground up in 2012, Santorum now has a grass-roots operation called Patriot Voices, which boasts 150,000 activists across the country. Its current push, an online petition drive to oppose President Obama’s recent executive action on immigration, has generated what Santorum strategist John Brabender says are “30,000 new e-mail relationships.”

Whether Santorum can raise the money he needs is another question. Foster Friess, the benefactor who ponied up $2.1 million to a pro-Santorum super PAC in 2012, says he would support him again. The former senator is sounding out other deep-pocketed donors, whom he declined to identify.

He is retooling his message, hoping to appeal beyond his socially conservative base and reach blue-collar voters who are being left behind in the economy.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
December 10 2014 05:32 GMT
#30240
On December 10 2014 13:24 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2014 13:19 oneofthem wrote:
On December 10 2014 11:45 IgnE wrote:
What was abu-ghraib? Higher ups hungry for results?

well, it was really bad, but it's still an isolated incident early in the war. all the guys from that were very publicly disciplined.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/usa0604/1.htm

Show nested quote +
...the United States government has repeatedly sought to portray the abuse as an isolated incident...

In fact, the only exceptional aspect of the abuse at Abu Ghraib may have been that it was photographed. Detainees in U.S. custody in Afghanistan have testified that they experienced treatment similar to what happened in Abu Ghraib -- from beatings to prolonged sleep and sensory deprivation to being held naked -- as early as 2002. Comparable -- and, indeed, more extreme -- cases of torture and inhuman treatment have been extensively documented by the International Committee of the Red Cross and by journalists at numerous locations in Iraq outside Abu Ghraib.

yea, was in 2004.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
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