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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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On November 25 2014 15:30 Vegetarian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:29 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:26 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:19 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:17 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:14 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:08 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:02 URfavHO wrote:
I get the impression that african american's are uninformed of how the justice system works. Pretty much, but they know enough to know that they often get screwed by the justice system. I don't blame them for wanting change. However, picking Michael Brown as the poster boy for their grievances is nothing short of retarded. This is a kid who made some incredibly bad choices and paid accordingly. I agree up to the last two words. If stupidity was truly a capital crime the American population would be a lot thinner on the ground. Sorry, but forcing a cop to shoot you in self-defense is dumb enough to warrant death. Sure. If he forced him then yes. Charging a cop is pretty much going to force the cop to shoot you. In a world where fists are a deadly weapon, sure. The number of instances where cops engage in physical combat with an unarmed citizens are relatively large, the number of those that lead to deadly force being used is not: The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) says 57,892 law enforcement officers are assaulted each year and 15,483 sustain serious injuries. The most recent FBI "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA) report indicates that 80.2% of the assaults against law enforcement in 2012 were committed by unarmed subjects. The 2012 LEOKA report also reveals that unarmed subject attacks are the leading cause of injury for law enforcement officers. Presumably serious harm is something more than Wilson suffered -- but if you wish to quibble fine enough -- that still should suggest that there should be 15483 police shootings if your aritculation that an unarmed man charging a police officer constitutes as 'forcing to shoot' 1) Brown had gone for Wilson's firearm. 2) Brown had his hand in his waistband according to Wilson's testimony. Only a fool would blindly believe what a police offer said after he murdered an unarmed civilian.
1) He was right about literally everything else.
2) It's irrelevant since Brown was charging him and had already gone for his firearm so the use of a gun was justified with or without the waistband thing.
3) He didn't murder anyone, it was self-defence. You're just mad because you fell for the media's racebaiting and are ignoring all the evidence that goes against that narrative.
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Personally, I don't really care about whether Wilson escaped justice or whatever but... shit man some of the things that were shown live on camera...
Public perception of Black Americans took a hit tonight.
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On November 25 2014 15:34 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:30 Vegetarian wrote:On November 25 2014 15:29 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:26 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:19 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:17 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:14 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:08 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:02 URfavHO wrote:
I get the impression that african american's are uninformed of how the justice system works. Pretty much, but they know enough to know that they often get screwed by the justice system. I don't blame them for wanting change. However, picking Michael Brown as the poster boy for their grievances is nothing short of retarded. This is a kid who made some incredibly bad choices and paid accordingly. I agree up to the last two words. If stupidity was truly a capital crime the American population would be a lot thinner on the ground. Sorry, but forcing a cop to shoot you in self-defense is dumb enough to warrant death. Sure. If he forced him then yes. Charging a cop is pretty much going to force the cop to shoot you. In a world where fists are a deadly weapon, sure. The number of instances where cops engage in physical combat with an unarmed citizens are relatively large, the number of those that lead to deadly force being used is not: The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) says 57,892 law enforcement officers are assaulted each year and 15,483 sustain serious injuries. The most recent FBI "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA) report indicates that 80.2% of the assaults against law enforcement in 2012 were committed by unarmed subjects. The 2012 LEOKA report also reveals that unarmed subject attacks are the leading cause of injury for law enforcement officers. Presumably serious harm is something more than Wilson suffered -- but if you wish to quibble fine enough -- that still should suggest that there should be 15483 police shootings if your aritculation that an unarmed man charging a police officer constitutes as 'forcing to shoot' 1) Brown had gone for Wilson's firearm. 2) Brown had his hand in his waistband according to Wilson's testimony. Only a fool would blindly believe what a police offer said after he murdered an unarmed civilian. 1) He was right about literally everything else. 2) It's irrelevant since Brown was charging him and had already gone for his firearm so the use of a gun was justified with or without the waistband thing. 3) He didn't murder anyone, it was self-defence. You're just mad because you fell for the media's racebaiting and are ignoring all the evidence that goes against that narrative.
If only there was some kind of process in society that would allow different pieces of evidence to be presented in an adversarial process by two well qualified advocates or something to weigh (1) and (2). Oh well.
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On November 25 2014 15:23 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On November 25 2014 15:03 Vegetarian wrote:On November 25 2014 14:41 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 14:40 Vegetarian wrote:On November 25 2014 14:36 wei2coolman wrote:On November 25 2014 14:23 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 14:21 wei2coolman wrote:
The riot is fucking disgusting, ignorant people getting mad over shit they don't have full details of. It does nothing to the public image of minorities, when they pull stupid as fuck shit like this. go fuck yourself. Those people are rioting because Ferguson has long been a hotbed of political oppression towards black people. They are frustrated. Some ignorant people are there but this bullshit comment is exactly the type that is fed by misinformed racist pieces of shit. You don't understand what those people are going through. Fuck outta here. What? Rioting over lack of "justice"? Justice was fucking served, just because the result wasn't what people wanted, doesn't mean justice wasn't served. Rioting does nothing to promote their cause. What happened to the famous non-violent movement of MLK jr? You'd think he'd be proud of this shit? Most people would not consider justice to be shooting an unarmed man 6 times and getting away with it. It's easy to get outraged when you ignore the facts of the case, yes. You are the one who is ignoring basic facts. Police have bulletproof cars and carry batons, as well as tasers. There is no reason for police to ever shoot an unarmed man 6 times with a lethal weapon. You can't let a guy beat you until he takes your gun. It's too late then. The problem is the instant damage escalade from hand-to-hand to firearm. The guy attacks to hurt, sure, fine. Then you respond with 6 bullets. You damn sure know it's to kill then, and pretty fast too. I mean, I know it's a complicated issue, but I don't think that it should be accepted so easily that you can just kill the guy who raises a fist against you, as a police officer (or anyone for that matter, but especially for combat-trained personel). Which however seems to be the common opinion in this thread: "he hit him, bruising his cheek, look, it's even red! Well, I now understand why the policeman shot him 6 times." Bottom line: police force should be trained and tought to incapacitate first, kill second (read: never, but heh, that's in an ideal world)
Yeah officers aren't allowed to shoot just because someone raises a fist. In this case there had been a non-lethal struggle, possibly over the officer's gun, a chase, and then a shooting before the next blows where delivered.
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On November 25 2014 15:26 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:18 ETisME wrote:On November 25 2014 15:10 Judicator wrote:On November 25 2014 15:03 ETisME wrote:On November 25 2014 14:54 wei2coolman wrote:On November 25 2014 14:52 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 14:45 Slaughter wrote:On November 25 2014 14:39 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 14:35 Slaughter wrote:On November 25 2014 14:32 Ace wrote:
[quote]
Maybe the white rioters that destroyed their community after the Giants game should get your scorn too then, right? Keep ignoring what's going on in that community and acting like ignorance is the word of the day. You don't know shit about what's going on in communities like Ferguson. What event are you referring to specifically? This is the 2nd time I have seen someone referencing sports related riots as if it is something only whites do. In my recollection they usually get the same scorn/mockery and police suppression that is happening right now. SF Giants World Series game. When those people rioted the attention was not even close to what these people are getting. Also remember the way CNN and FoxNews have been framing minorities for weeks leading up to this event. Black people are viewed as inherently violent and tend to riot when what's going on here is lashing out at a system due to frustration. But the pos in this thread don't see and won't understand that. Within the last 2 weeks two unarmed black males have been murdered by police and in both cases the cops are likely to walk. There is much more to this than "look, ignorant rioters!" going on. Some of you people are fucking disgusting. I wouldn't call people who see rioting as something that is bad and not helping anything "disgusting". Your right about media portrayal (frankly I don't know how we as a country continue to let them operate in the horrible fashion that they do). The kind of perception you are referring to is shockingly deep though (recently in my field we were fighting against that recently released crappyily done "scientific work of a nonscientist" about race that Nicholas Wade released). They are, and the racial overtones pouring out of their post are disgusting too. Nevermind not even understanding WHY these people are going berserk, but calling all of them ignorant when not everyone is out there vandalizing property. Many people really, really, don't understand what black people go through with respect to police in this country. So they think this lashing out behavior is just people being dumb. So many black males have been killed by police that have gotten the benefit of the doubt in recent years. Every time black people are told to be calm, let the system do it's job, vote if you want to change the law. And yet the killing of young black men still continues at the hands of police officers who are above the law. So when this happens again, and the decision is handed down in the wake of that 12 year old boy getting shot in the stomach and the 28 year old shot by a cop in the dark what do you think the sentiment is? Preaching patience does what? What is the alternative route that people should take? I don't think rioting is the best course of action but what is the solution when other avenues keep getting your people murdered and the killers unsanctioned? How ever did the civil rights movement ever work? Clearly the strong work of the black panthers were the very reason why the civil rights bill passed. /sarcasm for the blindly angered folks in this thread. Of course that's giving too much credit to the Rioters to compare them to the black panthers, at least the Panther provided for their community rather than teared it down. That doesn't mean violent riot doesn't bring any result though Hong Kong 1967 riot against the British government due to the racist and corruption etc was violent and after that the British gov reviewed their policies and brought a huge change to the society, so much that hong kongers no longer cause much issue ever since. Here, I just gave you one example of how a violent riot can turn things for better as well. It would be silly to think only civic disobedience movement can make changes. At least make relevant parallels...Christ people fucking suck at critical thinking. The British was going to cave because despite HK being a British colony, the English very much understood that they were on foreign lands that they owned. This is very different than 2 groups of people sharing a single land. Case in point, every single fucking ethnic conflict in Africa, a lot of shit sure gets accomplished there. Umm.. I can reassure you the British did not crave in because of Hong Kong is borrowed. The Chinese were busy dealing with their internal conflicts and hardly had any influence on hong kong. Do you really think the British empire which exported drug to the Chinese and attacked and claimed the land would actually care that the land they own is borrowed? You honestly think that British perception of the land was borrowed? You honestly think that ANY of the colonial powers at the time in China were borrowed? China couldn't even get back a colony from a defeated Germany post-WW1 because of how other powers intervened, and you think that the British would rather give you guys an inch and sell it off as a mile?
Yes I honestly believe that because that is exactly what happened.
Anyway this is getting out of topic.
If I were to use another example, some cities in china had a corrupted official (before china declare war on corruption) who abused his rank and the citizen riot and the official got punished.
Somewhere a village in China had similar problem and led to a political reform that allows everyone in the village to vote for anyone in village to be the next leader.
Violent riot does work.
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On November 25 2014 15:37 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:34 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:30 Vegetarian wrote:On November 25 2014 15:29 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:26 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:19 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:17 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:14 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:08 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Pretty much, but they know enough to know that they often get screwed by the justice system. I don't blame them for wanting change. However, picking Michael Brown as the poster boy for their grievances is nothing short of retarded. This is a kid who made some incredibly bad choices and paid accordingly. I agree up to the last two words. If stupidity was truly a capital crime the American population would be a lot thinner on the ground. Sorry, but forcing a cop to shoot you in self-defense is dumb enough to warrant death. Sure. If he forced him then yes. Charging a cop is pretty much going to force the cop to shoot you. In a world where fists are a deadly weapon, sure. The number of instances where cops engage in physical combat with an unarmed citizens are relatively large, the number of those that lead to deadly force being used is not: The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) says 57,892 law enforcement officers are assaulted each year and 15,483 sustain serious injuries. The most recent FBI "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA) report indicates that 80.2% of the assaults against law enforcement in 2012 were committed by unarmed subjects. The 2012 LEOKA report also reveals that unarmed subject attacks are the leading cause of injury for law enforcement officers. Presumably serious harm is something more than Wilson suffered -- but if you wish to quibble fine enough -- that still should suggest that there should be 15483 police shootings if your aritculation that an unarmed man charging a police officer constitutes as 'forcing to shoot' 1) Brown had gone for Wilson's firearm. 2) Brown had his hand in his waistband according to Wilson's testimony. Only a fool would blindly believe what a police offer said after he murdered an unarmed civilian. 1) He was right about literally everything else. 2) It's irrelevant since Brown was charging him and had already gone for his firearm so the use of a gun was justified with or without the waistband thing. 3) He didn't murder anyone, it was self-defence. You're just mad because you fell for the media's racebaiting and are ignoring all the evidence that goes against that narrative. If only there was some kind of process in society that would allow different pieces of evidence to be presented in an adversarial process by two well qualified advocates or something to weigh (1) and (2). Oh well.
If only Wilson was acquitted by a Grand Jury due to overwhelming evidence.
Oh well.
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On November 25 2014 15:34 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:30 Vegetarian wrote:On November 25 2014 15:29 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:26 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:19 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:17 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:14 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:08 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:02 URfavHO wrote:
I get the impression that african american's are uninformed of how the justice system works. Pretty much, but they know enough to know that they often get screwed by the justice system. I don't blame them for wanting change. However, picking Michael Brown as the poster boy for their grievances is nothing short of retarded. This is a kid who made some incredibly bad choices and paid accordingly. I agree up to the last two words. If stupidity was truly a capital crime the American population would be a lot thinner on the ground. Sorry, but forcing a cop to shoot you in self-defense is dumb enough to warrant death. Sure. If he forced him then yes. Charging a cop is pretty much going to force the cop to shoot you. In a world where fists are a deadly weapon, sure. The number of instances where cops engage in physical combat with an unarmed citizens are relatively large, the number of those that lead to deadly force being used is not: The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) says 57,892 law enforcement officers are assaulted each year and 15,483 sustain serious injuries. The most recent FBI "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA) report indicates that 80.2% of the assaults against law enforcement in 2012 were committed by unarmed subjects. The 2012 LEOKA report also reveals that unarmed subject attacks are the leading cause of injury for law enforcement officers. Presumably serious harm is something more than Wilson suffered -- but if you wish to quibble fine enough -- that still should suggest that there should be 15483 police shootings if your aritculation that an unarmed man charging a police officer constitutes as 'forcing to shoot' 1) Brown had gone for Wilson's firearm. 2) Brown had his hand in his waistband according to Wilson's testimony. Only a fool would blindly believe what a police offer said after he murdered an unarmed civilian. 1) He was right about literally everything else. 2) It's irrelevant since Brown was charging him and had already gone for his firearm so the use of a gun was justified with or without the waistband thing. 3) He didn't murder anyone, it was self-defence. You're just mad because you fell for the media's racebaiting and are ignoring all the evidence that goes against that narrative.
1) nope
2) not irrelevant as police have feet and should exercise all other options before choosing to shoot a lethal weapon at an unarmed civilian
3)its not self defense, keep in mind that the police officer instigated the confrontation by stopping brown solely to harass him, not because he was suspected of any crime.
You are the one that has been fooled by every unsubstantiated statement that the police have made. You should train your brain so that you are not fooled as easily in the future.
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On November 25 2014 15:38 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:37 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:34 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:30 Vegetarian wrote:On November 25 2014 15:29 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:26 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:19 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:17 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:14 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
I agree up to the last two words. If stupidity was truly a capital crime the American population would be a lot thinner on the ground. Sorry, but forcing a cop to shoot you in self-defense is dumb enough to warrant death. Sure. If he forced him then yes. Charging a cop is pretty much going to force the cop to shoot you. In a world where fists are a deadly weapon, sure. The number of instances where cops engage in physical combat with an unarmed citizens are relatively large, the number of those that lead to deadly force being used is not: The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) says 57,892 law enforcement officers are assaulted each year and 15,483 sustain serious injuries. The most recent FBI "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA) report indicates that 80.2% of the assaults against law enforcement in 2012 were committed by unarmed subjects. The 2012 LEOKA report also reveals that unarmed subject attacks are the leading cause of injury for law enforcement officers. Presumably serious harm is something more than Wilson suffered -- but if you wish to quibble fine enough -- that still should suggest that there should be 15483 police shootings if your aritculation that an unarmed man charging a police officer constitutes as 'forcing to shoot' 1) Brown had gone for Wilson's firearm. 2) Brown had his hand in his waistband according to Wilson's testimony. Only a fool would blindly believe what a police offer said after he murdered an unarmed civilian. 1) He was right about literally everything else. 2) It's irrelevant since Brown was charging him and had already gone for his firearm so the use of a gun was justified with or without the waistband thing. 3) He didn't murder anyone, it was self-defence. You're just mad because you fell for the media's racebaiting and are ignoring all the evidence that goes against that narrative. If only there was some kind of process in society that would allow different pieces of evidence to be presented in an adversarial process by two well qualified advocates or something to weigh (1) and (2). Oh well. If only Wilson was acquitted by a Grand Jury due to overwhelming evidence. Oh well.
He wasnt acquitted, the Grand Jury declined to indict him. And GJ do not indict cops. http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/
Cases involving police shootings, however, appear to be an exception. As my colleague Reuben Fischer-Baum has written, we don’t have good data on officer-involved killings. But newspaper accounts suggest, grand juries frequently decline to indict law-enforcement officials. A recent Houston Chronicle investigation found that “police have been nearly immune from criminal charges in shootings” in Houston and other large cities in recent years. In Harris County, Texas, for example, grand juries haven’t indicted a Houston police officer since 2004; in Dallas, grand juries reviewed 81 shootings between 2008 and 2012 and returned just one indictment. Separate research by Bowling Green State University criminologist Philip Stinson has found that officers are rarely charged in on-duty killings, although it didn’t look at grand jury indictments specifically.
Had it indicted he we would have a trial where evidence would have been presented in an adversarial manner by two trained advocates so the question whether Wilson's veracity could be examined on the witness stand.
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On November 25 2014 15:23 Ace wrote:Black on Black crime is discussed far more than I think you guys realize. However, it isn't in the context of "black on black" but more so gang violence and problems in poor urban areas where majority of the victims are young black males. This is why I made the statement of "does anybody address white on white crimes?". Because it doesn't accurately describe the problem and isn't what Ferguson is all about. Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 15:07 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On November 25 2014 14:52 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 14:45 Slaughter wrote:On November 25 2014 14:39 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 14:35 Slaughter wrote:On November 25 2014 14:32 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 14:30 RockIronrod wrote:
[quote]
Keep defending the rioters who are destroying the community of the people who live there. Nothing says liberation like burning down a Walgreens. Maybe the white rioters that destroyed their community after the Giants game should get your scorn too then, right? Keep ignoring what's going on in that community and acting like ignorance is the word of the day. You don't know shit about what's going on in communities like Ferguson. What event are you referring to specifically? This is the 2nd time I have seen someone referencing sports related riots as if it is something only whites do. In my recollection they usually get the same scorn/mockery and police suppression that is happening right now. SF Giants World Series game. When those people rioted the attention was not even close to what these people are getting. Also remember the way CNN and FoxNews have been framing minorities for weeks leading up to this event. Black people are viewed as inherently violent and tend to riot when what's going on here is lashing out at a system due to frustration. But the pos in this thread don't see and won't understand that. Within the last 2 weeks two unarmed black males have been murdered by police and in both cases the cops are likely to walk. There is much more to this than "look, ignorant rioters!" going on. Some of you people are fucking disgusting. I wouldn't call people who see rioting as something that is bad and not helping anything "disgusting". Your right about media portrayal (frankly I don't know how we as a country continue to let them operate in the horrible fashion that they do). The kind of perception you are referring to is shockingly deep though (recently in my field we were fighting against that recently released crappyily done "scientific work of a nonscientist" about race that Nicholas Wade released). They are, and the racial overtones pouring out of their post are disgusting too. Nevermind not even understanding WHY these people are going berserk, but calling all of them ignorant when not everyone is out there vandalizing property. Many people really, really, don't understand what black people go through with respect to police in this country. So they think this lashing out behavior is just people being dumb. So many black males have been killed by police that have gotten the benefit of the doubt in recent years. Every time black people are told to be calm, let the system do it's job, vote if you want to change the law. And yet the killing of young black men still continues at the hands of police officers who are above the law. So when this happens again, and the decision is handed down in the wake of that 12 year old boy getting shot in the stomach and the 28 year old shot by a cop in the dark what do you think the sentiment is? Preaching patience does what? What is the alternative route that people should take? I don't think rioting is the best course of action but what is the solution when other avenues keep getting your people murdered and the killers unsanctioned? When a cop does something wrong, he / she should absolutely be punished. No one questions that. However, when a cop doesn't do something wrong he should not be punished. People seem to question that though, and it just makes the situation worse. See 'Boy cried Wolf', and police / community relations. I'm reminded of an NPR story I read a few months back where a black family lamented that they may have to resign themselves to a world where they need to tell their children to obey officers, out of fear for their children's safety. I furrowed my brow at that. Growing up white in a quiet suburb my parents told me the same thing, that if I was ever in trouble to just do what the officer said, and be VERY polite. 100% agreed. However, when the system that absolves the cop of wrong doing isn't exactly trusted then what course do the people have when it keeps happening? Watching McCulloch's press conference was down right disheartening. I was just as upset that this man came off in defense of Wilson, blaming social media and witness credibility, than I was at Wilson "getting off". It was a slap in the face. The second bolded is just that black family being obtuse. Everyone, regardless of color, should be telling their kids to obey officers. I don't know where that family is from but that is not a widespread sentiment in the communities I grew up in around NYC. I interpreted McCulloch's press conference differently. To me he was defending the system, the decision and the evidence it was based off of. I thought it was brilliant, really. For example, he pointed out that there were conflicting witness testimony (which the media reported on) and that the truthful witnesses were sorted out by looking to the physical evidence. So the media built up an expectation one way or another (by cherry picking testimony to go with whatever story you want to tell) that was separate from the objective truth. I felt like he was actually giving more a defense of why Wilson won't be charged than telling us where the prosecution failed. This is even more disturbing because of Ferguson's history of problems between citizens and the law. He really couldn't get an indictment at all? When his past was revealed it just made the situation that much more sickening. Again, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who has seen "justice" do some disgusting things to my fellow minorities. If you aren't rich enough to hire the best lawyer, god help you when the State or some low nut is in charge of your defense.
Well, the information is being released so I'd recommend looking at all of it over a pot of delicious coffee 
Kind of a side note, I've heard that public defenders actually do quite a good job. Those guys and gals deserve a raise (whole judicial system does, really).
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On November 25 2014 15:38 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:37 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:34 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:30 Vegetarian wrote:On November 25 2014 15:29 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:26 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:19 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:17 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:14 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
I agree up to the last two words. If stupidity was truly a capital crime the American population would be a lot thinner on the ground. Sorry, but forcing a cop to shoot you in self-defense is dumb enough to warrant death. Sure. If he forced him then yes. Charging a cop is pretty much going to force the cop to shoot you. In a world where fists are a deadly weapon, sure. The number of instances where cops engage in physical combat with an unarmed citizens are relatively large, the number of those that lead to deadly force being used is not: The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) says 57,892 law enforcement officers are assaulted each year and 15,483 sustain serious injuries. The most recent FBI "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA) report indicates that 80.2% of the assaults against law enforcement in 2012 were committed by unarmed subjects. The 2012 LEOKA report also reveals that unarmed subject attacks are the leading cause of injury for law enforcement officers. Presumably serious harm is something more than Wilson suffered -- but if you wish to quibble fine enough -- that still should suggest that there should be 15483 police shootings if your aritculation that an unarmed man charging a police officer constitutes as 'forcing to shoot' 1) Brown had gone for Wilson's firearm. 2) Brown had his hand in his waistband according to Wilson's testimony. Only a fool would blindly believe what a police offer said after he murdered an unarmed civilian. 1) He was right about literally everything else. 2) It's irrelevant since Brown was charging him and had already gone for his firearm so the use of a gun was justified with or without the waistband thing. 3) He didn't murder anyone, it was self-defence. You're just mad because you fell for the media's racebaiting and are ignoring all the evidence that goes against that narrative. If only there was some kind of process in society that would allow different pieces of evidence to be presented in an adversarial process by two well qualified advocates or something to weigh (1) and (2). Oh well. If only Wilson was acquitted by a Grand Jury due to overwhelming evidence. Oh well.
Grand Jury basically lets the one prosecutor get whatever verdict they want.
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On November 25 2014 15:38 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:37 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:34 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:30 Vegetarian wrote:On November 25 2014 15:29 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:26 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:19 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:17 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:14 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
I agree up to the last two words. If stupidity was truly a capital crime the American population would be a lot thinner on the ground. Sorry, but forcing a cop to shoot you in self-defense is dumb enough to warrant death. Sure. If he forced him then yes. Charging a cop is pretty much going to force the cop to shoot you. In a world where fists are a deadly weapon, sure. The number of instances where cops engage in physical combat with an unarmed citizens are relatively large, the number of those that lead to deadly force being used is not: The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) says 57,892 law enforcement officers are assaulted each year and 15,483 sustain serious injuries. The most recent FBI "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA) report indicates that 80.2% of the assaults against law enforcement in 2012 were committed by unarmed subjects. The 2012 LEOKA report also reveals that unarmed subject attacks are the leading cause of injury for law enforcement officers. Presumably serious harm is something more than Wilson suffered -- but if you wish to quibble fine enough -- that still should suggest that there should be 15483 police shootings if your aritculation that an unarmed man charging a police officer constitutes as 'forcing to shoot' 1) Brown had gone for Wilson's firearm. 2) Brown had his hand in his waistband according to Wilson's testimony. Only a fool would blindly believe what a police offer said after he murdered an unarmed civilian. 1) He was right about literally everything else. 2) It's irrelevant since Brown was charging him and had already gone for his firearm so the use of a gun was justified with or without the waistband thing. 3) He didn't murder anyone, it was self-defence. You're just mad because you fell for the media's racebaiting and are ignoring all the evidence that goes against that narrative. If only there was some kind of process in society that would allow different pieces of evidence to be presented in an adversarial process by two well qualified advocates or something to weigh (1) and (2). Oh well. If only Wilson was acquitted by a Grand Jury due to overwhelming evidence. Oh well.
Historically, grand juries were viewed, as Judge Learned Hand observed, as the “voice of the community” acting not as an extension of the government but as a shield against it. They were originally designed to guard against malicious, onerous, and hasty public prosecutions. But over the years, thanks to power-hungry prosecutors and an overburdened criminal justice system, that historical role has been eroded to the point of nonexistence. What was once a great bulwark against the oppressive use of the government’s power to prosecute became an organ of the very agencies it was meant to curtail. In contemporary America, prosecutors exercise so much control over grand juries that a district attorney can get a grand jury to (as Sol Wachtler, the former chief judge of the New York Court of Appeals, famously put it) “indict a ham sandwich.”
Slate.com
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On November 25 2014 15:38 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:37 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:34 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:30 Vegetarian wrote:On November 25 2014 15:29 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:26 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:19 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:17 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:14 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
I agree up to the last two words. If stupidity was truly a capital crime the American population would be a lot thinner on the ground. Sorry, but forcing a cop to shoot you in self-defense is dumb enough to warrant death. Sure. If he forced him then yes. Charging a cop is pretty much going to force the cop to shoot you. In a world where fists are a deadly weapon, sure. The number of instances where cops engage in physical combat with an unarmed citizens are relatively large, the number of those that lead to deadly force being used is not: The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) says 57,892 law enforcement officers are assaulted each year and 15,483 sustain serious injuries. The most recent FBI "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA) report indicates that 80.2% of the assaults against law enforcement in 2012 were committed by unarmed subjects. The 2012 LEOKA report also reveals that unarmed subject attacks are the leading cause of injury for law enforcement officers. Presumably serious harm is something more than Wilson suffered -- but if you wish to quibble fine enough -- that still should suggest that there should be 15483 police shootings if your aritculation that an unarmed man charging a police officer constitutes as 'forcing to shoot' 1) Brown had gone for Wilson's firearm. 2) Brown had his hand in his waistband according to Wilson's testimony. Only a fool would blindly believe what a police offer said after he murdered an unarmed civilian. 1) He was right about literally everything else. 2) It's irrelevant since Brown was charging him and had already gone for his firearm so the use of a gun was justified with or without the waistband thing. 3) He didn't murder anyone, it was self-defence. You're just mad because you fell for the media's racebaiting and are ignoring all the evidence that goes against that narrative. If only there was some kind of process in society that would allow different pieces of evidence to be presented in an adversarial process by two well qualified advocates or something to weigh (1) and (2). Oh well. If only Wilson was acquitted by a Grand Jury due to overwhelming evidence. Oh well.
Yup, let's just put blind faith in the idea that the system is perfect and always results in the best outcome. Never mind that the grand jury saw far more evidence in this case than in almost any other, or that the prosecutor presenting to the grand jury was highly criticized for his appointment/handling of the case.
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On November 25 2014 15:39 Vegetarian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:34 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:30 Vegetarian wrote:On November 25 2014 15:29 RockIronrod wrote:On November 25 2014 15:26 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:19 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:17 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:14 xDaunt wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Sub40APM wrote:On November 25 2014 15:08 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Pretty much, but they know enough to know that they often get screwed by the justice system. I don't blame them for wanting change. However, picking Michael Brown as the poster boy for their grievances is nothing short of retarded. This is a kid who made some incredibly bad choices and paid accordingly. I agree up to the last two words. If stupidity was truly a capital crime the American population would be a lot thinner on the ground. Sorry, but forcing a cop to shoot you in self-defense is dumb enough to warrant death. Sure. If he forced him then yes. Charging a cop is pretty much going to force the cop to shoot you. In a world where fists are a deadly weapon, sure. The number of instances where cops engage in physical combat with an unarmed citizens are relatively large, the number of those that lead to deadly force being used is not: The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) says 57,892 law enforcement officers are assaulted each year and 15,483 sustain serious injuries. The most recent FBI "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA) report indicates that 80.2% of the assaults against law enforcement in 2012 were committed by unarmed subjects. The 2012 LEOKA report also reveals that unarmed subject attacks are the leading cause of injury for law enforcement officers. Presumably serious harm is something more than Wilson suffered -- but if you wish to quibble fine enough -- that still should suggest that there should be 15483 police shootings if your aritculation that an unarmed man charging a police officer constitutes as 'forcing to shoot' 1) Brown had gone for Wilson's firearm. 2) Brown had his hand in his waistband according to Wilson's testimony. Only a fool would blindly believe what a police offer said after he murdered an unarmed civilian. 1) He was right about literally everything else. 2) It's irrelevant since Brown was charging him and had already gone for his firearm so the use of a gun was justified with or without the waistband thing. 3) He didn't murder anyone, it was self-defence. You're just mad because you fell for the media's racebaiting and are ignoring all the evidence that goes against that narrative. 1) nope 2) not irrelevant as police have feet and should exercise all other options before choosing to shoot a lethal weapon at an unarmed civilian 3)its not self defense, keep in mind that the police officer instigated the confrontation by stopping brown solely to harass him, not because he was suspected of any crime. You are the one that has been fooled by every unsubstantiated statement that the police have made. You should train your brain so that you are not fooled as easily in the future.
3) He heard the call come over his portable.page 202 of the transcript.
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On November 25 2014 15:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:23 Ace wrote:Black on Black crime is discussed far more than I think you guys realize. However, it isn't in the context of "black on black" but more so gang violence and problems in poor urban areas where majority of the victims are young black males. This is why I made the statement of "does anybody address white on white crimes?". Because it doesn't accurately describe the problem and isn't what Ferguson is all about. On November 25 2014 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 15:07 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On November 25 2014 14:52 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 14:45 Slaughter wrote:On November 25 2014 14:39 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 14:35 Slaughter wrote:On November 25 2014 14:32 Ace wrote:
[quote]
Maybe the white rioters that destroyed their community after the Giants game should get your scorn too then, right? Keep ignoring what's going on in that community and acting like ignorance is the word of the day. You don't know shit about what's going on in communities like Ferguson. What event are you referring to specifically? This is the 2nd time I have seen someone referencing sports related riots as if it is something only whites do. In my recollection they usually get the same scorn/mockery and police suppression that is happening right now. SF Giants World Series game. When those people rioted the attention was not even close to what these people are getting. Also remember the way CNN and FoxNews have been framing minorities for weeks leading up to this event. Black people are viewed as inherently violent and tend to riot when what's going on here is lashing out at a system due to frustration. But the pos in this thread don't see and won't understand that. Within the last 2 weeks two unarmed black males have been murdered by police and in both cases the cops are likely to walk. There is much more to this than "look, ignorant rioters!" going on. Some of you people are fucking disgusting. I wouldn't call people who see rioting as something that is bad and not helping anything "disgusting". Your right about media portrayal (frankly I don't know how we as a country continue to let them operate in the horrible fashion that they do). The kind of perception you are referring to is shockingly deep though (recently in my field we were fighting against that recently released crappyily done "scientific work of a nonscientist" about race that Nicholas Wade released). They are, and the racial overtones pouring out of their post are disgusting too. Nevermind not even understanding WHY these people are going berserk, but calling all of them ignorant when not everyone is out there vandalizing property. Many people really, really, don't understand what black people go through with respect to police in this country. So they think this lashing out behavior is just people being dumb. So many black males have been killed by police that have gotten the benefit of the doubt in recent years. Every time black people are told to be calm, let the system do it's job, vote if you want to change the law. And yet the killing of young black men still continues at the hands of police officers who are above the law. So when this happens again, and the decision is handed down in the wake of that 12 year old boy getting shot in the stomach and the 28 year old shot by a cop in the dark what do you think the sentiment is? Preaching patience does what? What is the alternative route that people should take? I don't think rioting is the best course of action but what is the solution when other avenues keep getting your people murdered and the killers unsanctioned? When a cop does something wrong, he / she should absolutely be punished. No one questions that. However, when a cop doesn't do something wrong he should not be punished. People seem to question that though, and it just makes the situation worse. See 'Boy cried Wolf', and police / community relations. I'm reminded of an NPR story I read a few months back where a black family lamented that they may have to resign themselves to a world where they need to tell their children to obey officers, out of fear for their children's safety. I furrowed my brow at that. Growing up white in a quiet suburb my parents told me the same thing, that if I was ever in trouble to just do what the officer said, and be VERY polite. 100% agreed. However, when the system that absolves the cop of wrong doing isn't exactly trusted then what course do the people have when it keeps happening? Watching McCulloch's press conference was down right disheartening. I was just as upset that this man came off in defense of Wilson, blaming social media and witness credibility, than I was at Wilson "getting off". It was a slap in the face. The second bolded is just that black family being obtuse. Everyone, regardless of color, should be telling their kids to obey officers. I don't know where that family is from but that is not a widespread sentiment in the communities I grew up in around NYC. I interpreted McCulloch's press conference differently. To me he was defending the system, the decision and the evidence it was based off of. I thought it was brilliant, really. For example, he pointed out that there were conflicting witness testimony (which the media reported on) and that the truthful witnesses were sorted out by looking to the physical evidence. So the media built up an expectation one way or another (by cherry picking testimony to go with whatever story you want to tell) that was separate from the objective truth. I felt like he was actually giving more a defense of why Wilson won't be charged than telling us where the prosecution failed. This is even more disturbing because of Ferguson's history of problems between citizens and the law. He really couldn't get an indictment at all? When his past was revealed it just made the situation that much more sickening. Again, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who has seen "justice" do some disgusting things to my fellow minorities. If you aren't rich enough to hire the best lawyer, god help you when the State or some low nut is in charge of your defense. Well, the information is being released so I'd recommend looking at all of it over a pot of delicious coffee Kind of a side note, I've heard that public defenders actually do quite a good job. Those guys and gals deserve a raise (whole judicial system does, really).
It's hit or miss with PDs. I think many of them are overworked and just don't always end up devoting enough time to their clients. Some are just bad though and don't seem to care. It's doubly tough when "if you could afford a better lawyer you might have gotten justice" is tossed around.
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On November 25 2014 15:46 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 15:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On November 25 2014 15:23 Ace wrote:Black on Black crime is discussed far more than I think you guys realize. However, it isn't in the context of "black on black" but more so gang violence and problems in poor urban areas where majority of the victims are young black males. This is why I made the statement of "does anybody address white on white crimes?". Because it doesn't accurately describe the problem and isn't what Ferguson is all about. On November 25 2014 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On November 25 2014 15:12 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 15:07 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On November 25 2014 14:52 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 14:45 Slaughter wrote:On November 25 2014 14:39 Ace wrote:On November 25 2014 14:35 Slaughter wrote:
[quote]
What event are you referring to specifically? This is the 2nd time I have seen someone referencing sports related riots as if it is something only whites do. In my recollection they usually get the same scorn/mockery and police suppression that is happening right now. SF Giants World Series game. When those people rioted the attention was not even close to what these people are getting. Also remember the way CNN and FoxNews have been framing minorities for weeks leading up to this event. Black people are viewed as inherently violent and tend to riot when what's going on here is lashing out at a system due to frustration. But the pos in this thread don't see and won't understand that. Within the last 2 weeks two unarmed black males have been murdered by police and in both cases the cops are likely to walk. There is much more to this than "look, ignorant rioters!" going on. Some of you people are fucking disgusting. I wouldn't call people who see rioting as something that is bad and not helping anything "disgusting". Your right about media portrayal (frankly I don't know how we as a country continue to let them operate in the horrible fashion that they do). The kind of perception you are referring to is shockingly deep though (recently in my field we were fighting against that recently released crappyily done "scientific work of a nonscientist" about race that Nicholas Wade released). They are, and the racial overtones pouring out of their post are disgusting too. Nevermind not even understanding WHY these people are going berserk, but calling all of them ignorant when not everyone is out there vandalizing property. Many people really, really, don't understand what black people go through with respect to police in this country. So they think this lashing out behavior is just people being dumb. So many black males have been killed by police that have gotten the benefit of the doubt in recent years. Every time black people are told to be calm, let the system do it's job, vote if you want to change the law. And yet the killing of young black men still continues at the hands of police officers who are above the law. So when this happens again, and the decision is handed down in the wake of that 12 year old boy getting shot in the stomach and the 28 year old shot by a cop in the dark what do you think the sentiment is? Preaching patience does what? What is the alternative route that people should take? I don't think rioting is the best course of action but what is the solution when other avenues keep getting your people murdered and the killers unsanctioned? When a cop does something wrong, he / she should absolutely be punished. No one questions that. However, when a cop doesn't do something wrong he should not be punished. People seem to question that though, and it just makes the situation worse. See 'Boy cried Wolf', and police / community relations. I'm reminded of an NPR story I read a few months back where a black family lamented that they may have to resign themselves to a world where they need to tell their children to obey officers, out of fear for their children's safety. I furrowed my brow at that. Growing up white in a quiet suburb my parents told me the same thing, that if I was ever in trouble to just do what the officer said, and be VERY polite. 100% agreed. However, when the system that absolves the cop of wrong doing isn't exactly trusted then what course do the people have when it keeps happening? Watching McCulloch's press conference was down right disheartening. I was just as upset that this man came off in defense of Wilson, blaming social media and witness credibility, than I was at Wilson "getting off". It was a slap in the face. The second bolded is just that black family being obtuse. Everyone, regardless of color, should be telling their kids to obey officers. I don't know where that family is from but that is not a widespread sentiment in the communities I grew up in around NYC. I interpreted McCulloch's press conference differently. To me he was defending the system, the decision and the evidence it was based off of. I thought it was brilliant, really. For example, he pointed out that there were conflicting witness testimony (which the media reported on) and that the truthful witnesses were sorted out by looking to the physical evidence. So the media built up an expectation one way or another (by cherry picking testimony to go with whatever story you want to tell) that was separate from the objective truth. I felt like he was actually giving more a defense of why Wilson won't be charged than telling us where the prosecution failed. This is even more disturbing because of Ferguson's history of problems between citizens and the law. He really couldn't get an indictment at all? When his past was revealed it just made the situation that much more sickening. Again, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who has seen "justice" do some disgusting things to my fellow minorities. If you aren't rich enough to hire the best lawyer, god help you when the State or some low nut is in charge of your defense. Well, the information is being released so I'd recommend looking at all of it over a pot of delicious coffee Kind of a side note, I've heard that public defenders actually do quite a good job. Those guys and gals deserve a raise (whole judicial system does, really). It's hit or miss with PDs. I think many of them are overworked and just don't always end up devoting enough time to their clients. Some are just bad though and don't seem to care. It's doubly tough when "if you could afford a better lawyer you might have gotten justice" is tossed around.
I think most PD's work their ass off until they get burned out by the kind of stuff they see. But there is a reason recently former PD's aren't swooped up for wealthy persons trials.
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A sizable percentage of PDs work there for a few years and then go into firms to charge more money.
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France15952 Posts
I can't find Dorian Johnson's testimony in the transcript, can't Ctrl+F that shit :/
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EPT
