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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 25 2014 16:41 Sub40APM wrote: You mention that like its an established fact. Gimme the avg 220 lb guy vs an avg 300lb man, 9 times out of 10. The 220lb guy is gunna be overpowered in a grappling struggle. There's a reason why weight classes over 10lb ranges exist in combat sports. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 25 2014 16:45 Kingkosi wrote: All cops don't have to be black belts smart ass but they go through some type of defense training for these situations I would imagine. If he can't subdue the teenage BOY who was roughly the same size as him with the training that he received without using a fire arm then he is either really shit at his job or a coward. I am guessing both. Lol 80lbs is not same size, also h2h for police is complete trash. let's put it this way, most martial artists would not want to fight someone 80lbs bigger than them, even if there's a skill gap. | ||
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23268 Posts
On November 25 2014 16:48 wei2coolman wrote: Lol 80lbs is not same size, also h2h for police is complete trash. let's put it this way, most martial artists would not want to fight someone 80lbs bigger than them, even if there's a skill gap. The cop emptied his clip? 12rnds (unclear if he had a round in the chamber) in several bursts over at least 7 seconds before he got within 8-10 ft by Officer Wilson's own account. It's unclear until I see the scene photos how the distances match up with the audio and the testimony. (besides the two fired in the car) | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Regardless, even if the first shots (the shots inside the car) are justified, Wilson surely didn't need to finish the job and put 4 more bullets in Brown's body, including one in his head. Oh well, hard to say :/ | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
https://twitter.com/jaredbkeller/status/537103191255842816/photo/1 | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On November 25 2014 16:47 wei2coolman wrote: Gimme the avg 220 lb guy vs an avg 300lb man, 9 times out of 10. The 220lb guy is gunna be overpowered in a grappling struggle. There's a reason why weight classes over 10lb ranges exist in combat sports. Well there you go, case close. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
I mean, that compounded with the fact that the guy reached for his gun should be good enough reason. On November 25 2014 17:09 Ace wrote: https://twitter.com/AndreaJohnSmith/status/537149313370296320 https://twitter.com/jaredbkeller/status/537103191255842816/photo/1 If only Brown had done the exact same thing these protesters are doing, this incident could have been avoided. also, taser or not, if the guy is reaching for your gun, you go for the gun, cuz the taser you end up shocking yourself if the person has contact with you... also notice the relative lack of injury from everyone, they were still mobile right after, especially if you're right next to a guy, still very likely you grip onto the person who's tasering you. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
It seemed to me that they were asking way more interpretational details of Johnson: like "didn't you think that you two walking in the middle of the street could be perceived as a show of strength?" or "you're short, don't you think you weren't tall enough to have a good enough point of view of what was happening?" whereas Johnson only talks about what happens outside the truck. Conversely they didn't seem really inquisitive with Wilson. Like, they didn't ask why he felt the need to shoot at will on a guy bleeding with 3 bullets in him, running at him unarmed. They just seemed content with "I felt like he was going to kill me if he reached me". It was the crux of the self defense call, but they didn't really insist on it. I could be wrong though, maybe just my imagination. On November 25 2014 17:16 wei2coolman wrote: I mean, that compounded with the fact that the guy reached for his gun should be good enough reason. If only Brown had done the exact same thing these protesters are doing, this incident could have been avoided. also, taser or not, if the guy is reaching for your gun, you go for the gun, cuz the taser you end up shocking yourself if the person has contact with you... Wilson says Brown reached for his gun after he threatened Brown with it. Brown obviously didn't reach for the gun at the right side of Wilson sitting in his car. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23268 Posts
On November 25 2014 17:20 ZenithM wrote: Did someone else in this thread read both Johnson's and Wilson's testimonies before the grand jury (probably the 2 most important ones I would guess)? It seemed to me that they were asking way more interpretational details of Johnson: like "didn't you think that you two walking in the middle of the street could be perceived as a show of strength?" or "you're short, don't you think you weren't tall enough to have a good enough point of view of what was happening?" whereas Johnson only talks about what happens outside the truck. Conversely they didn't seem really inquisitive with Wilson. Like, they didn't ask why he felt the need to shoot at will on a guy bleeding with 3 bullets in him, running at him unarmed. They just seemed content with "I felt like he was going to kill me if he reached me". It was the crux of the self defense call, but they didn't really insist on it. I could be wrong though, maybe just my imagination. Yeah they didn't question the difference in his account and the audio at all? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/24/darren-wilson-jennings-police-department_n_5704133.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/darren-wilsons-first-job-was-on-a-troubled-police-force-disbanded-by-authorities/2014/08/23/1ac796f0-2a45-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html Read about how the city generated money. READ IT. edit: Deleted the image referencing a car chase | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
But others are more capital. Like Johnson says Wilson grabbed Brown at the neck, at his shirt, and on the left arm, a grip strong enough to prevent Brown from backing away from the car, Wilson says nothing about that (he says he was only trying to defend himself). This should have been pretty verifiable on Brown's body and clothes I would assume? Also, Johnson said Brown didn't touch the gun, but Wilson said Brown grabbed it. Probably easy to verify with fingerprints? I don't know how they go about it for the grand jury thing, but what they did check probably could have confirmed one testimony or the other... | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On November 25 2014 17:20 ZenithM wrote: Did someone else in this thread read both Johnson's and Wilson's testimonies before the grand jury (probably the 2 most important ones I would guess)? It seemed to me that they were asking way more interpretational details of Johnson: like "didn't you think that you two walking in the middle of the street could be perceived as a show of strength?" or "you're short, don't you think you weren't tall enough to have a good enough point of view of what was happening?" whereas Johnson only talks about what happens outside the truck. Conversely they didn't seem really inquisitive with Wilson. Like, they didn't ask why he felt the need to shoot at will on a guy bleeding with 3 bullets in him, running at him unarmed. They just seemed content with "I felt like he was going to kill me if he reached me". It was the crux of the self defense call, but they didn't really insist on it. I could be wrong though, maybe just my imagination. Wilson says Brown reached for his gun after he threatened Brown with it. Brown obviously didn't reach for the gun at the right side of Wilson sitting in his car. Just read Dorian's, it comes off weird. I think they were pushing the interpretation part because Dorian was acting like he had no idea why the cop would get upset. That and Dorian not seeing Brown reach for the gun is a big deal, so they pushed that too. Also seems odd that he would claim Brown didn't speak at all to the cop, yet the cop went for him and completely ignored Dorain. Just COMPLETELY ignored him too. I mean he said the cop shot and killed Brown without a word to him. Feels like he's leaving out details. If I understand the situation, the the cop car was headed in the opposite direction of the guys, stopped, then reversed once they walked past him. The two would have been standing in front of the drivers side window, not the opposite side. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
If I understand the situation, the the cop car was headed in the opposite direction of the guys, stopped, then reversed once they walked past him. The two would have been standing in front of the drivers side window, not the opposite side. Yes, it's pretty clear that they were in front of the driver's side. I was just saying that even so, Brown didn't reach for the gun until Wilson already had it drawn and threatened him to shoot if he didn't stop. I mean, I can understand the need to grab the weapon whose owner you're hitting with your fists, but I can't really understand the need to reach for the weapon in the holster at the side of a policeman ;D | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 25 2014 17:28 Ace wrote: Hey but people have no right to be outraged http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/24/darren-wilson-jennings-police-department_n_5704133.html edit: Deleted the image referencing a car chase everyone in the department got fired. could very well of been an innocent by standard being a rookie cop and being assigned into a shitty department that was already falling apart. separate point, reading through transcript right now: wilson does note he was trying to reach for his mace during the assault, before going for his fire arm, however his left arm was blocking, and his right arm couldn't reach around for his mace during the struggle. He also mentions he was in close proximity in a limited area (in the driver seat of his car) and that use of mace would disable both of them, would still not be in the clear despite usage. also reading a witness testimony, pretty reads exactly as wilson describes. sees struggle through car window, hear's gunshot, his initial thought was "'oh my gosh' did i actually just witness a police officer being murdered? because it took a wile for the police officer to get out of the car and pursue the suspect" then brown turn around, start charging at officer. officer fires couple of rounds, he thinks officer is missing because brown doesn't stop the charge. then brown stops, wilson stops firing, brown starts charging again, wilson fires again. brown finally collapses and falls to the ground. edit: towards end of testimony, detective asks this witness what he thought of the whole incident. he thought that wilson should have used a taser initially, but upon more thought said that there was no time for him to holster his pistol, and reholster with a taser in time. his quote "and, after think' about it and reviewing everything and puttin' myself in the police officer's shoes, I feel like he handled the situation correct force wise..." reading another witness testimony, this one is really damning about the situation of the community "'cause everything happening so quick, ' cause something' happens here almost every weekend.'" | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Actually every account I found either doesn't speak of Brown's hands, or say they were raised ("hands up"). Wilson definitely says the contrary. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 25 2014 17:59 ZenithM wrote: Really not easy to know what happened after the struggle at the car window. Multiple accounts report Brown charging Wilson, and multiple others say he had his hands up and was only walking towards the police. Definitely sounds to me like there were 3-4 extra shots that Wilson shouldn't have taken. I don't know if this makes any difference for self-defense and whatnot, but still. Actually every account I found either doesn't speak of Brown's hands, or say they were raised ("hands up"). Wilson definitely says the contrary. All this suggests to me is that, even if Wilson was indicted, there was zero chance of a conviction. A first year law student could point out the reasonable doubt in this case. | ||
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Efane
Russian Federation49 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 25 2014 23:04 Efane wrote: Regardless of rights and wrongs, buffles me to no end that for 13+ years now US police is more or less US army... I though with all those dirty DARPA moneyz you could make something better then a tazer... And its kinda sad that the jury decided to overlook some clear overuse of power, i mean, come on, even if the officers life was threatened, in his perception, doesnt sanction spraying and praying like its 5 past apocalypse and we are all doomed, DOOMED! Well, i guess considering policemen in their line of duty just "human", with emotions and crap is a wise excuse for the future, i mean, its not like they are trained to apprehend all kinds of dodgy situations, they might have worked in Taco Bell like a week ago... oh, wait I doubt that it has been overlooked. That kind of claim is reserved for civil lawsuits. The family already lawyered up and hired Crump to represent them in a potential wrongful death / 1983 case. Whether they actually file suit could be rather telling regarding what they think of the evidence that is available. Of course, there's also the potential that they just settle for an "undisclosed amount." | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Cop shoots kid. That's a given, doesn't matter now for what reason. Now a "jury" of 12 laymen, normal people, decided, if there actually is a case, which would've been led by a prosecutor, whos father was a cop and shot dead by a black person when he was 12. Is that accurate? I don't wanna hear "but his integrity is totally fine" and other bs like that - just the mere facts. Is above stated correct in a nutshell? | ||
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