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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Sorry, but just because they're your kid doesn't mean you have the right to do whatever you want with them. Kids are human beings, too, and they deserve to be educated in a fashion that allows them to choose their own beliefs.
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if your education does not challenge your beliefs, it isn't education.
@jonny: <3
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On March 03 2013 09:08 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 09:05 farvacola wrote:On March 03 2013 09:01 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 08:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 03 2013 08:53 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 06:06 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
edit: this is just it. The whole notion of "student debt" gives the impression that "education" is an investment into future earning potential. That's not what education is, that's what training is. Education is what you need in order to be a good citizen of a democratic society and a well-developed human being. It's not something you have that lets you make more money in the future. So the entire notion of education as an investment is ass-backwards. that's why it needs to be free - because otherwise only rich people can have it, and that defeats the entire notion of a democratic society, at which point we really should just stop pretending. Yes. I don't know how the situation is today at schools in the United States, but wouldn't it be wonderful if students received extensive training in looking at media from a critical perspective? Republicans disagree. "Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really."In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”
It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” The point is that the right-wing oppose socio-engineering through education....I don't see what's wrong with that. They promote parents actually parenting and raising their kids the way they would like because the children are THEIR children, not the states. You guys make it sound like they are completely against education, instead they are for education from the right source - the parents. They promote a private school system where the parents are able to choose what their kids will learn. They don't believe that people who don't believe in Judeo-Christian principles should be taught against their beliefs either. As much as a lot of people hate to see this, there's a lot of people disagree with you and you can't just force their children out of their beliefs through socio-engineering of public school systems they're forced into. I am a Christian man who fears (especially in my country) this very thing And when the parents are dumb as bricks? In whos opinion are they dumb as bricks? in what type of category? Like fail out of high school not due to laziness but due to inability category. The grade equivalent would be around D, D- average. Does that make the person any less of a human being? Any less of the ability to be happy? Again it's the price of freedom. Like a poster above me said - you can wish it wasn't that way, but you can't change it
less likely to raise smart kids
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On March 03 2013 08:53 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 06:06 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
edit: this is just it. The whole notion of "student debt" gives the impression that "education" is an investment into future earning potential. That's not what education is, that's what training is. Education is what you need in order to be a good citizen of a democratic society and a well-developed human being. It's not something you have that lets you make more money in the future. So the entire notion of education as an investment is ass-backwards. that's why it needs to be free - because otherwise only rich people can have it, and that defeats the entire notion of a democratic society, at which point we really should just stop pretending. Yes. I don't know how the situation is today at schools in the United States, but wouldn't it be wonderful if students received extensive training in looking at media from a critical perspective? Republicans disagree. "Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really."In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”
It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” The point is that the right-wing oppose socio-engineering through education....I don't see what's wrong with that. They promote parents actually parenting and raising their kids the way they would like because the children are THEIR children, not the states. You guys make it sound like they are completely against education, instead they are for education from the right source - the parents. They promote a private school system where the parents are able to choose what their kids will learn. They don't believe that people who don't believe in Judeo-Christian principles should be taught against their beliefs either. As much as a lot of people hate to see this, there's a lot of people disagree with you and you can't just force their children out of their beliefs through socio-engineering of public school systems they're forced into. I am a Christian man who fears (especially in my country) this very thing
You're using the term "socio-engineering" to demonize teaching kids how to think critically and for themselves. There's nothing about teaching kids to think critically that prevents parents from raising their kids the way they want - it simply gives the kids the tools to better understand and reflect on the social reality they live in, including their parents' teachings.
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On March 03 2013 09:09 Souma wrote:
Sorry, but just because they're your kid doesn't mean you have the right to do whatever you want with them. Kids are human beings, too, and they deserve to be educated in a fashion that allows them to choose their own beliefs.
You act as if the world you guys have described isnt indoctrination. Your way of thinking is just as much a belief as is mine. I believe mine is right to absolute certainty and you do yours. Socio-engineering is exactly that.
I have the right to raise my children through my parental rights in the way I see fit as long as I don't cross over their rights as human beings (abuse, etc.). If they disagree with what I teach them as children they will stray from it. I know I did for a good 3 years when I was 20 years old but I came back on my own. The way my parents taught me made me a better person
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On March 03 2013 09:12 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 08:53 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 06:06 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
edit: this is just it. The whole notion of "student debt" gives the impression that "education" is an investment into future earning potential. That's not what education is, that's what training is. Education is what you need in order to be a good citizen of a democratic society and a well-developed human being. It's not something you have that lets you make more money in the future. So the entire notion of education as an investment is ass-backwards. that's why it needs to be free - because otherwise only rich people can have it, and that defeats the entire notion of a democratic society, at which point we really should just stop pretending. Yes. I don't know how the situation is today at schools in the United States, but wouldn't it be wonderful if students received extensive training in looking at media from a critical perspective? Republicans disagree. "Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really."In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”
It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” The point is that the right-wing oppose socio-engineering through education....I don't see what's wrong with that. They promote parents actually parenting and raising their kids the way they would like because the children are THEIR children, not the states. You guys make it sound like they are completely against education, instead they are for education from the right source - the parents. They promote a private school system where the parents are able to choose what their kids will learn. They don't believe that people who don't believe in Judeo-Christian principles should be taught against their beliefs either. As much as a lot of people hate to see this, there's a lot of people disagree with you and you can't just force their children out of their beliefs through socio-engineering of public school systems they're forced into. I am a Christian man who fears (especially in my country) this very thing You're using the term "socio-engineering" to demonize teaching kids how to think critically and for themselves. There's nothing about teaching kids to think critically that prevents parents from raising their kids the way they want - it simply gives the kids the tools to better understand and reflect on the social reality they live in, including their parents' teachings.
Again they arn't against having kids think critically or against whole ideas like you suggested. For example they'd be against teaching kids that abortions are ok because public education shouldn't choose a side on political issues
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I'm absolutely certain that there's no such thing as absolute certainty
and there's no such thing as not taking sides. Anyone who tells you they're being neutral and objective is trying to sell you something
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On March 03 2013 09:16 sam!zdat wrote:
I'm absolutely certain that there's no such thing as absolute certainty
I don't see the point you're trying to make here. I believe what I do for a reason, because I think it's right. You're a very good example of this on these forums sam!zdat. You believe with much certainty that communism is the future. (not an insult, you're opinion is as valid as mine)
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On March 03 2013 09:15 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 09:12 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 08:53 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 06:06 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
edit: this is just it. The whole notion of "student debt" gives the impression that "education" is an investment into future earning potential. That's not what education is, that's what training is. Education is what you need in order to be a good citizen of a democratic society and a well-developed human being. It's not something you have that lets you make more money in the future. So the entire notion of education as an investment is ass-backwards. that's why it needs to be free - because otherwise only rich people can have it, and that defeats the entire notion of a democratic society, at which point we really should just stop pretending. Yes. I don't know how the situation is today at schools in the United States, but wouldn't it be wonderful if students received extensive training in looking at media from a critical perspective? Republicans disagree. "Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really."In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”
It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” The point is that the right-wing oppose socio-engineering through education....I don't see what's wrong with that. They promote parents actually parenting and raising their kids the way they would like because the children are THEIR children, not the states. You guys make it sound like they are completely against education, instead they are for education from the right source - the parents. They promote a private school system where the parents are able to choose what their kids will learn. They don't believe that people who don't believe in Judeo-Christian principles should be taught against their beliefs either. As much as a lot of people hate to see this, there's a lot of people disagree with you and you can't just force their children out of their beliefs through socio-engineering of public school systems they're forced into. I am a Christian man who fears (especially in my country) this very thing You're using the term "socio-engineering" to demonize teaching kids how to think critically and for themselves. There's nothing about teaching kids to think critically that prevents parents from raising their kids the way they want - it simply gives the kids the tools to better understand and reflect on the social reality they live in, including their parents' teachings. Again they arn't against having kids think critically or against whole ideas like you suggested. For example they'd be against teaching kids that abortions are ok because education shouldn't choose a side on political issues
Did you actually read the platform? It specifically says "We oppose the teaching of [...] critical thinking skills".
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On March 03 2013 09:21 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 09:15 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 09:12 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 08:53 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 06:06 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
edit: this is just it. The whole notion of "student debt" gives the impression that "education" is an investment into future earning potential. That's not what education is, that's what training is. Education is what you need in order to be a good citizen of a democratic society and a well-developed human being. It's not something you have that lets you make more money in the future. So the entire notion of education as an investment is ass-backwards. that's why it needs to be free - because otherwise only rich people can have it, and that defeats the entire notion of a democratic society, at which point we really should just stop pretending. Yes. I don't know how the situation is today at schools in the United States, but wouldn't it be wonderful if students received extensive training in looking at media from a critical perspective? Republicans disagree. "Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really."In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”
It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” The point is that the right-wing oppose socio-engineering through education....I don't see what's wrong with that. They promote parents actually parenting and raising their kids the way they would like because the children are THEIR children, not the states. You guys make it sound like they are completely against education, instead they are for education from the right source - the parents. They promote a private school system where the parents are able to choose what their kids will learn. They don't believe that people who don't believe in Judeo-Christian principles should be taught against their beliefs either. As much as a lot of people hate to see this, there's a lot of people disagree with you and you can't just force their children out of their beliefs through socio-engineering of public school systems they're forced into. I am a Christian man who fears (especially in my country) this very thing You're using the term "socio-engineering" to demonize teaching kids how to think critically and for themselves. There's nothing about teaching kids to think critically that prevents parents from raising their kids the way they want - it simply gives the kids the tools to better understand and reflect on the social reality they live in, including their parents' teachings. Again they arn't against having kids think critically or against whole ideas like you suggested. For example they'd be against teaching kids that abortions are ok because education shouldn't choose a side on political issues Did you actually read the platform? It specifically says "We oppose the teaching of [...] critical thinking skills".
which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
you can't snip a quote like that..
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our opinions are not equally valid, that's a logical absurdity. At most you can say that it remains unclear which of us is less wrong. That's why we have critical thinking, so a third party can listen to both of us and improve upon our failings. There is no such thing as objectivity, but nevertheless the truth is not a matter of opinion.
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"they deserve to be educated in a fashion that allows them to choose their own beliefs."
They're little kids. They're going to be extremely impressionable no matter what Idea of moral neutrality you think the current version of science is. Education in america is most about making sure everyone's "on the same page" about history and should be with science as presenting the latest theory's in whatever we know. It shouldn't be used as a pedestal to combat Ideas that you don't agree with or don't like.
People don't know where gravity comes from and what cause's it but they don't present it as Jesus's love holding everything together as much as they don't teach that Its collections of mass that are the cause of gravity in the universe. Just give people the latest facts and evidence without telling them that what they learned in sunday school is bs because a book written over a thousand and a half years ago has less scientific bearing then one written last year.
And yes I believe in evolution I just don't see how it conflicts with my religion.
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On March 03 2013 09:23 sam!zdat wrote:
our opinions are not equally valid, that's a logical absurdity. At most you can say that it remains unclear which of us is less wrong. That's why we have critical thinking, so a third party can listen to both of us and improve upon our failings. There is no such thing as objectivity, but nevertheless the truth is not a matter of opinion.
Until it is made clear to us what the ultimate truth is, ideas of the truth are indeed a matter of opinion.
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no, education is teaching that everyone will NEVER be on the same page about history
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 03 2013 09:23 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 09:21 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 09:15 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 09:12 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 08:53 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 06:06 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
edit: this is just it. The whole notion of "student debt" gives the impression that "education" is an investment into future earning potential. That's not what education is, that's what training is. Education is what you need in order to be a good citizen of a democratic society and a well-developed human being. It's not something you have that lets you make more money in the future. So the entire notion of education as an investment is ass-backwards. that's why it needs to be free - because otherwise only rich people can have it, and that defeats the entire notion of a democratic society, at which point we really should just stop pretending. Yes. I don't know how the situation is today at schools in the United States, but wouldn't it be wonderful if students received extensive training in looking at media from a critical perspective? Republicans disagree. "Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really."In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”
It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” The point is that the right-wing oppose socio-engineering through education....I don't see what's wrong with that. They promote parents actually parenting and raising their kids the way they would like because the children are THEIR children, not the states. You guys make it sound like they are completely against education, instead they are for education from the right source - the parents. They promote a private school system where the parents are able to choose what their kids will learn. They don't believe that people who don't believe in Judeo-Christian principles should be taught against their beliefs either. As much as a lot of people hate to see this, there's a lot of people disagree with you and you can't just force their children out of their beliefs through socio-engineering of public school systems they're forced into. I am a Christian man who fears (especially in my country) this very thing You're using the term "socio-engineering" to demonize teaching kids how to think critically and for themselves. There's nothing about teaching kids to think critically that prevents parents from raising their kids the way they want - it simply gives the kids the tools to better understand and reflect on the social reality they live in, including their parents' teachings. Again they arn't against having kids think critically or against whole ideas like you suggested. For example they'd be against teaching kids that abortions are ok because education shouldn't choose a side on political issues Did you actually read the platform? It specifically says "We oppose the teaching of [...] critical thinking skills". which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.you can't snip a quote like that..
what's wrong with that.
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On March 03 2013 09:27 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 09:23 sam!zdat wrote:
our opinions are not equally valid, that's a logical absurdity. At most you can say that it remains unclear which of us is less wrong. That's why we have critical thinking, so a third party can listen to both of us and improve upon our failings. There is no such thing as objectivity, but nevertheless the truth is not a matter of opinion. Until it is made clear to us what the ultimate truth is, ideas of the truth are indeed a matter of opinion.
no, they are topics of argumentation and objects of critique.
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Well not everyone just all of "us". see for example all of the wars america has fought and won. The education you get in high school and middle school paint a pretty nice picture of everything america has done.
On March 03 2013 09:28 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 09:23 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 09:21 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 09:15 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 09:12 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 08:53 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 06:06 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
edit: this is just it. The whole notion of "student debt" gives the impression that "education" is an investment into future earning potential. That's not what education is, that's what training is. Education is what you need in order to be a good citizen of a democratic society and a well-developed human being. It's not something you have that lets you make more money in the future. So the entire notion of education as an investment is ass-backwards. that's why it needs to be free - because otherwise only rich people can have it, and that defeats the entire notion of a democratic society, at which point we really should just stop pretending. Yes. I don't know how the situation is today at schools in the United States, but wouldn't it be wonderful if students received extensive training in looking at media from a critical perspective? Republicans disagree. "Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really."In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”
It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” The point is that the right-wing oppose socio-engineering through education....I don't see what's wrong with that. They promote parents actually parenting and raising their kids the way they would like because the children are THEIR children, not the states. You guys make it sound like they are completely against education, instead they are for education from the right source - the parents. They promote a private school system where the parents are able to choose what their kids will learn. They don't believe that people who don't believe in Judeo-Christian principles should be taught against their beliefs either. As much as a lot of people hate to see this, there's a lot of people disagree with you and you can't just force their children out of their beliefs through socio-engineering of public school systems they're forced into. I am a Christian man who fears (especially in my country) this very thing You're using the term "socio-engineering" to demonize teaching kids how to think critically and for themselves. There's nothing about teaching kids to think critically that prevents parents from raising their kids the way they want - it simply gives the kids the tools to better understand and reflect on the social reality they live in, including their parents' teachings. Again they arn't against having kids think critically or against whole ideas like you suggested. For example they'd be against teaching kids that abortions are ok because education shouldn't choose a side on political issues Did you actually read the platform? It specifically says "We oppose the teaching of [...] critical thinking skills". which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.you can't snip a quote like that.. what's wrong with that.
Imagine if your child was sent to a religious school that taught them that creationalism was right, democrats and socialism are the cause of all evil, that they are raciest because of their skin color and that they should always vote the right way in elections. The state shouldn't tell you how to raise your child as much as it shouldn't teach them to think the way it wants them to.
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On March 03 2013 09:28 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 09:23 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 09:21 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 09:15 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 09:12 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 08:53 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 06:06 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
edit: this is just it. The whole notion of "student debt" gives the impression that "education" is an investment into future earning potential. That's not what education is, that's what training is. Education is what you need in order to be a good citizen of a democratic society and a well-developed human being. It's not something you have that lets you make more money in the future. So the entire notion of education as an investment is ass-backwards. that's why it needs to be free - because otherwise only rich people can have it, and that defeats the entire notion of a democratic society, at which point we really should just stop pretending. Yes. I don't know how the situation is today at schools in the United States, but wouldn't it be wonderful if students received extensive training in looking at media from a critical perspective? Republicans disagree. "Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really."In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”
It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” The point is that the right-wing oppose socio-engineering through education....I don't see what's wrong with that. They promote parents actually parenting and raising their kids the way they would like because the children are THEIR children, not the states. You guys make it sound like they are completely against education, instead they are for education from the right source - the parents. They promote a private school system where the parents are able to choose what their kids will learn. They don't believe that people who don't believe in Judeo-Christian principles should be taught against their beliefs either. As much as a lot of people hate to see this, there's a lot of people disagree with you and you can't just force their children out of their beliefs through socio-engineering of public school systems they're forced into. I am a Christian man who fears (especially in my country) this very thing You're using the term "socio-engineering" to demonize teaching kids how to think critically and for themselves. There's nothing about teaching kids to think critically that prevents parents from raising their kids the way they want - it simply gives the kids the tools to better understand and reflect on the social reality they live in, including their parents' teachings. Again they arn't against having kids think critically or against whole ideas like you suggested. For example they'd be against teaching kids that abortions are ok because education shouldn't choose a side on political issues Did you actually read the platform? It specifically says "We oppose the teaching of [...] critical thinking skills". which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.you can't snip a quote like that.. what's wrong with that.
That depends on the "critical thinking skill" which is challenging the beliefs or parental authority.
I suppose I am being a little unfair to the idea of critical thinking skills. I, of course, think there's nothing wrong with teaching kids about how biases work and how to make good arguments etc. I just think what a lot of people would love to happen nowadays is have education the way to disconnect kids from their religious beliefs. Which looking back isn't what critical thinking means
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On March 03 2013 09:23 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 09:21 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 09:15 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 09:12 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 08:53 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 06:06 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
edit: this is just it. The whole notion of "student debt" gives the impression that "education" is an investment into future earning potential. That's not what education is, that's what training is. Education is what you need in order to be a good citizen of a democratic society and a well-developed human being. It's not something you have that lets you make more money in the future. So the entire notion of education as an investment is ass-backwards. that's why it needs to be free - because otherwise only rich people can have it, and that defeats the entire notion of a democratic society, at which point we really should just stop pretending. Yes. I don't know how the situation is today at schools in the United States, but wouldn't it be wonderful if students received extensive training in looking at media from a critical perspective? Republicans disagree. "Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really."In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”
It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” The point is that the right-wing oppose socio-engineering through education....I don't see what's wrong with that. They promote parents actually parenting and raising their kids the way they would like because the children are THEIR children, not the states. You guys make it sound like they are completely against education, instead they are for education from the right source - the parents. They promote a private school system where the parents are able to choose what their kids will learn. They don't believe that people who don't believe in Judeo-Christian principles should be taught against their beliefs either. As much as a lot of people hate to see this, there's a lot of people disagree with you and you can't just force their children out of their beliefs through socio-engineering of public school systems they're forced into. I am a Christian man who fears (especially in my country) this very thing You're using the term "socio-engineering" to demonize teaching kids how to think critically and for themselves. There's nothing about teaching kids to think critically that prevents parents from raising their kids the way they want - it simply gives the kids the tools to better understand and reflect on the social reality they live in, including their parents' teachings. Again they arn't against having kids think critically or against whole ideas like you suggested. For example they'd be against teaching kids that abortions are ok because education shouldn't choose a side on political issues Did you actually read the platform? It specifically says "We oppose the teaching of [...] critical thinking skills". which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.you can't snip a quote like that..
That is the Republican party's take on critical thinking skills. Critical thinking skills will lead one to challenge/question, or at least recognize as a belief, any kind of belief. That's kind of the point of thinking critically rather than accepting dogma as the truth without question.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 03 2013 09:31 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 09:28 oneofthem wrote:On March 03 2013 09:23 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 09:21 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 09:15 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 09:12 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 08:53 Dawski wrote:On March 03 2013 06:06 kwizach wrote:On March 03 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
edit: this is just it. The whole notion of "student debt" gives the impression that "education" is an investment into future earning potential. That's not what education is, that's what training is. Education is what you need in order to be a good citizen of a democratic society and a well-developed human being. It's not something you have that lets you make more money in the future. So the entire notion of education as an investment is ass-backwards. that's why it needs to be free - because otherwise only rich people can have it, and that defeats the entire notion of a democratic society, at which point we really should just stop pretending. Yes. I don't know how the situation is today at schools in the United States, but wouldn't it be wonderful if students received extensive training in looking at media from a critical perspective? Republicans disagree. "Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really."In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”
It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” The point is that the right-wing oppose socio-engineering through education....I don't see what's wrong with that. They promote parents actually parenting and raising their kids the way they would like because the children are THEIR children, not the states. You guys make it sound like they are completely against education, instead they are for education from the right source - the parents. They promote a private school system where the parents are able to choose what their kids will learn. They don't believe that people who don't believe in Judeo-Christian principles should be taught against their beliefs either. As much as a lot of people hate to see this, there's a lot of people disagree with you and you can't just force their children out of their beliefs through socio-engineering of public school systems they're forced into. I am a Christian man who fears (especially in my country) this very thing You're using the term "socio-engineering" to demonize teaching kids how to think critically and for themselves. There's nothing about teaching kids to think critically that prevents parents from raising their kids the way they want - it simply gives the kids the tools to better understand and reflect on the social reality they live in, including their parents' teachings. Again they arn't against having kids think critically or against whole ideas like you suggested. For example they'd be against teaching kids that abortions are ok because education shouldn't choose a side on political issues Did you actually read the platform? It specifically says "We oppose the teaching of [...] critical thinking skills". which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.you can't snip a quote like that.. what's wrong with that. That depends on the "critical thinking skill" which is challenging the beliefs or parental authority.
in other words, you are opposed to schools teaching certain things because some parents disagree with them.
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EPT
