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On September 28 2014 06:36 bookwyrm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 06:35 Crushinator wrote:On September 28 2014 05:50 bookwyrm wrote:
pretty sure all of our money is just debt. the only way money would be something other than debt is if money were a commodity. but our money is not a commodity. I'm not complaining either way, that's just the way it is
In what way is our money debt? Do you mean it in a really abstract way? Like money is the thing you hold instead of the thing you dont know you want yet because you don't know what the thing you want is yet? Because what is remarkable about a fiat currency is that it isn't a debt at all, nor is it a commodity, it is only money. Fiat currency is debt (on my view, gold coins are also debt, see above, but that's a tangent). It means the US economy owes you one unit of production. I mean it in a completely literal way. this is not even a controversial thing that I am saying
The thing you are saying is indeed not controversial, it is completely ridiculous. Good night sir.
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I knew I recognized that name. It's the bullshit jobs guy!
Basically, if you're not a farmer your job shouldn't exist.
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On September 28 2014 06:38 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 06:36 bookwyrm wrote:On September 28 2014 06:35 Crushinator wrote:On September 28 2014 05:50 bookwyrm wrote:
pretty sure all of our money is just debt. the only way money would be something other than debt is if money were a commodity. but our money is not a commodity. I'm not complaining either way, that's just the way it is
In what way is our money debt? Do you mean it in a really abstract way? Like money is the thing you hold instead of the thing you dont know you want yet because you don't know what the thing you want is yet? Because what is remarkable about a fiat currency is that it isn't a debt at all, nor is it a commodity, it is only money. Fiat currency is debt (on my view, gold coins are also debt, see above, but that's a tangent). It means the US economy owes you one unit of production. I mean it in a completely literal way. this is not even a controversial thing that I am saying The thing you are saying is indeed not controversial, it is completely ridiculous. Good night sir.
good grief. This is such an obvious point I'm not sure why you're being defensive about it. Really... What do you think money is... ? this is, like, something that even mainstream economists know. It's probably even in the fucking textbook. It might be the only true thing written in the entire textbook
please, at least save your disdain for the things that I'm saying that are actually totally heterodox
On September 28 2014 06:45 Jormundr wrote:
I knew I recognized that name. It's the bullshit jobs guy!
Basically, if you're not a farmer your job shouldn't exist.
who? what?
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so we're all supposed to live like the Amish? Sounds amazing
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On September 28 2014 06:46 bookwyrm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 06:38 Crushinator wrote:On September 28 2014 06:36 bookwyrm wrote:On September 28 2014 06:35 Crushinator wrote:On September 28 2014 05:50 bookwyrm wrote:
pretty sure all of our money is just debt. the only way money would be something other than debt is if money were a commodity. but our money is not a commodity. I'm not complaining either way, that's just the way it is
In what way is our money debt? Do you mean it in a really abstract way? Like money is the thing you hold instead of the thing you dont know you want yet because you don't know what the thing you want is yet? Because what is remarkable about a fiat currency is that it isn't a debt at all, nor is it a commodity, it is only money. Fiat currency is debt (on my view, gold coins are also debt, see above, but that's a tangent). It means the US economy owes you one unit of production. I mean it in a completely literal way. this is not even a controversial thing that I am saying The thing you are saying is indeed not controversial, it is completely ridiculous. Good night sir. good grief. This is such an obvious point I'm not sure why you're being defensive about it. Really... What do you think money is... ? this is, like, something that even mainstream economists know. It's probably even in the fucking textbook. It might be the only true thing written in the entire textbook please, at least save your disdain for the things that I'm saying that are actually totally heterodox Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 06:45 Jormundr wrote:
I knew I recognized that name. It's the bullshit jobs guy!
Basically, if you're not a farmer your job shouldn't exist. who? what?
Oh sorry yeah you are right. I just consulted my textbook and it did indeed literally have a story about a guy literally suing the literal US economy to get his literal unit of production. I have a dollar bill, US Economy, and i wish that you give me one unit of production to repay me this debt, is what he said.
But in all seriousness though, my textbook says that money is money and debt is debt, and the concepts overlap only there where debt is liquid enough to be considered money.
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Most jobs in our society ARE bullshit. Certainly Graeber doesn't think that everyone who isn't a farmer has a bullshit job. Seeing as Graeber is not himself a farmer...
The history of the 20th century is the history of makework. This is an explicit point in the Keynesian view of economics. It's not a secret guys. This is what Krugman means when he says that we need to blow up a bubble in order to have full employment. It's not that hard to read through the euphemisms...
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On September 28 2014 07:00 Crushinator wrote:
the concepts overlap only there where debt is liquid enough to be considered money.
which is pretty much the definition of fiat currency. cmon dude
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On September 28 2014 07:02 bookwyrm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 07:00 Crushinator wrote:
the concepts overlap only there where debt is liquid enough to be considered money. which is pretty much the definition of fiat currency. cmon dude
No.
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Lol okay, this isnt even interesting enough to argue about. Your use of tautology is impressicve though, keep up the good work
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
this thread is experiencing a severe deflationary spiral of content.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lgSDkvC.gif)
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On September 28 2014 07:01 bookwyrm wrote:
Most jobs in our society ARE bullshit. Certainly Graeber doesn't think that everyone who isn't a farmer has a bullshit job. Seeing as Graeber is not himself a farmer...
The history of the 20th century is the history of makework. This is an explicit point in the Keynesian view of economics. It's not a secret guys. This is what Krugman means when he says that we need to blow up a bubble in order to have full employment. It's not that hard to read through the euphemisms...
"So what are these new jobs, precisely? A recent report comparing employment in the US between 1910 and 2000 gives us a clear picture. Over the course of the last century, the number of workers employed as domestic servants, in industry, and in the farm sector has collapsed dramatically. At the same time, “professional, managerial, clerical, sales, and service workers” tripled, growing “from one-quarter to three-quarters of total employment.” In other words, productive jobs have, just as predicted, been largely automated away."
Not that I'm against an agrarian society in principle...
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On September 28 2014 06:32 bookwyrm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 06:11 oneofthem wrote:
bro if you mean money is an instrument of debt accounting, ok. but surely you are not going to argue for soem sort of gold standard or bartering with actual goods? Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 05:50 bookwyrm wrote:
I'm not complaining either way, that's just the way it is
I actually think that gold itself is a form of debt - the reason gold has value is that it is owed to the gods (you are under a divine commandment to stack up the gold in the temple). this is probably going to be a bit too literary theoretical for y'alll though and it is just a point of philosophical interest and not relevant to the current point which is that QE is a death train to oblivion and we are all being sold down the river by our idiot technocrats
Hrmm, that may come down to how you're defining 'money'...
this coming from the king of easy answers, for whom there are no real problems that exist in the world. My entire point is that there is no easy answer, the facile faith in the restorative powers of balance sheet trickery is the easiest answer of them all The non-easy answer is rethinking everything from the ground up. literally. let's think about dirt. Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 06:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
As for promises about the future, that's how a lot of private enterprise works. You guess that organizing capital and resources in a certain way will unlock value and economic growth, but real life doesn't always pan out the way you expect and yet the debts always come due.. I just love the way in which you restate my problems, under the impression that you are providing some sort of meaningful response
Somethings you can't change because you want to though. Are you planning on creating crystal balls to see into the future? No? Than how are you going to deal with risk regarding the future?
I mean you can't just complain that things are imperfect. Offer something of substance, and no, "sound money" and "free markets" don't address any of the real difficulties in place.
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Duh. Isnt it clear that im advocating sound money, free markets... and revolution?
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On September 28 2014 06:32 bookwyrm wrote:
the current point which is that QE is a death train to oblivion and we are all being sold down the river by our idiot technocrats
...coming from the guy who doesn't understand what QE is. Carry on :-D
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On September 28 2014 08:31 bookwyrm wrote:
Duh. Isnt it clear that im advocating sound money, free markets... and revolution?
Yes and in response to that I wrote: As for promises about the future, that's how a lot of private enterprise works. You guess that organizing capital and resources in a certain way will unlock value and economic growth, but real life doesn't always pan out the way you expect and yet the debts always come due..
Nothing about 'sound money' or 'free markets' will deal with the above issue and many others. In fact, many of the things you are railing against, like monetary policy and Keynesianism, were put in place to mitigate them.
Ok, so you think the cure is worse than the disease. Well what about your cure? What will your cure do and what will your side effects be?
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On September 28 2014 08:37 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 06:32 bookwyrm wrote:
the current point which is that QE is a death train to oblivion and we are all being sold down the river by our idiot technocrats ...coming from the guy who doesn't understand what QE is. Carry on :-D
Youd be more convincing if you could make a point other than 'nyah nyah'
jonny, the answer is local economies and local ownership of land and the means of production
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On September 28 2014 09:08 bookwyrm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 08:37 kwizach wrote:On September 28 2014 06:32 bookwyrm wrote:
the current point which is that QE is a death train to oblivion and we are all being sold down the river by our idiot technocrats ...coming from the guy who doesn't understand what QE is. Carry on :-D Youd be more convincing if you could make a point other than 'nyah nyah' jonny, the answer is local economies and local ownership of land and the means of production
and how do we invent anything that costs more than 50 bucks?
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Instead of doing that why dont you invent a way od living where you never have to buy anything that costs more than 50 bucks
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EPT
