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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 01 2013 13:11 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 13:04 ControlMonkey wrote:
College fees don't worry me that much. But pre-school should be free. That's pretty thoughtful. I don't feel like searching and linking stuff, but I've heard that development at a very young age is really helpful toward future success in school and beyond.
yes, early childhood education is all the rage these days. for very good reason
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 01 2013 13:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 12:56 sam!zdat wrote:
Does higher education really need to cost money? I don't get it. Why should "these guys" have to pay anyone back for anything? It didn't USE to cost money... Professors like dem paychecks too much :p
schools spend a lot on infrastructure and whatnot, expansion projects. it's a competition against other schools in the rankings race. the modern university's administration knows that having a big endowment, good infrastructure, facilities, and pay for the top talents. all of that cost money
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On March 01 2013 13:11 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 13:04 ControlMonkey wrote:
College fees don't worry me that much. But pre-school should be free. That's pretty thoughtful. I don't feel like searching and linking stuff, but I've heard that development at a very young age is really helpful toward future success in school and beyond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HighScope
The HighScope Perry Preschool Project was evaluated in a randomized controlled trial of 123 children (58 were randomly assigned to a treatment group that received the program and a control group of 65 children that did not). Prior to the program, the preschool and control groups were equivalent in measures of intellectual performance and demographic characteristics. After the program the educational and life outcomes for the children receiving the program were much superior to outcomes for the children not receiving the program. The effects were significant.[3]
Educational outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 27 follow-up
Completed an average of almost 1 full year more of schooling (11.9 years vs. 11 years)
Spent an average of 1.3 fewer years in special education services — e.g., for mental, emotional, speech, or learning impairment (3.9 years vs. 5.2 years)
44 percent higher high school graduation rate (66% vs. 45%)
Pregnancy outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 27 follow-up
Much lower proportion of out-of-wedlock births (57% vs. 83%)
Fewer teen pregnancies on average (0.6 pregnancies/woman vs. 1.2 pregnancies/woman)
Lifetime criminal activity for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 40 follow-up
46 percent less likely to have served time in jail or prison (28% vs. 52%)
33 percent lower arrest rate for violent crimes (32% vs. 48%)
Economic outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 40 follow-up
42 percent higher median monthly income ($1,856 vs. $1,308)
26 percent less likely to have received government assistance (e.g. welfare, food stamps) in the past ten years (59% vs. 80%)
The preschool program was about 12 hours a week over the course of 2 school years.
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On March 01 2013 13:01 sam!zdat wrote:Professors liked their paychecks before the days of user's fees, too... edit: I know Harvey at some point talks about the introduction of user fees into the CUNY system, I believe after the NYC bankruptcy crisis... and I know user fees were instituted in the Swiss system sometime in the seventies (source: my thesis advisor). It's a pretty recent thing, to my knowledge edit: I think with mass-distributed video lectures, you could have a pretty efficient community college system with just video lectures and TAs, who wouldn't cost you very much. I can think of at least one overeducated and underemployed american who would have loved the opportunity to make a small amount of money teaching a course of this type...  edit: but idk. Does anybody have a convincing story about why tuition fees have been increasing so much? isn't it just lack of willingness to fund schools on the part of government? I don't see why we can't just have socialized education.
I'm totally for cheap state universities. But I'd rather not chip in for some Harvard brat's education.
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On March 01 2013 13:34 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 13:01 sam!zdat wrote:Professors liked their paychecks before the days of user's fees, too... edit: I know Harvey at some point talks about the introduction of user fees into the CUNY system, I believe after the NYC bankruptcy crisis... and I know user fees were instituted in the Swiss system sometime in the seventies (source: my thesis advisor). It's a pretty recent thing, to my knowledge edit: I think with mass-distributed video lectures, you could have a pretty efficient community college system with just video lectures and TAs, who wouldn't cost you very much. I can think of at least one overeducated and underemployed american who would have loved the opportunity to make a small amount of money teaching a course of this type... edit: but idk. Does anybody have a convincing story about why tuition fees have been increasing so much? isn't it just lack of willingness to fund schools on the part of government? I don't see why we can't just have socialized education. I'm totally for cheap state universities. But I'd rather not chip in for some Harvard brat's education.
I'd rather just tax the Harvard brat's parents to pay for it 
edit: but I don't have any objection to the existence of private schools as long as there's a functioning free higher educational system. The problem is, if the rich can send their kids to private schools, that saps political will to fund state schools.
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While we are talking about education, do you think we should also reform the process in which someone can become a K-12 teacher? Given that education in my opinion affects your life than your local doctor, there definitely needs to be much more training put into teaching than what we already have. Also, although I believe in free education, do you think our teachers also deserve better pay?
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On March 01 2013 13:27 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 13:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 01 2013 12:56 sam!zdat wrote:
Does higher education really need to cost money? I don't get it. Why should "these guys" have to pay anyone back for anything? It didn't USE to cost money... Professors like dem paychecks too much :p schools spend a lot on infrastructure and whatnot, expansion projects. it's a competition against other schools in the rankings race. the modern university's administration knows that having a big endowment, good infrastructure, facilities, and pay for the top talents. all of that cost money
Yea, it's definitely not professor salaries that cost so much. Professors make a rather modest amount of money for the amount of time and dedication it takes to become a professor and for how incredibly difficult it is to get a job in the profession.
There are three big things driving up costs. The biggest one is expansion. Schools are constantly renovating and building new buildings to draw more students and compete against other schools. Many institutions are hundreds of billions of dollars in debt. The next one is financial aid; high education prices just cause a feedback loop where students need more and more financial aid to attend schools, and some of this financial aid comes from the schools themselves. Finally (albeit a lesser problem), athletic programs at big state universities cost a ridiculous amount of money. Look at schools like LSU or Alabama; their head football coaches make millions a year. Nick Saban (head football coach for the University of Alabama, national champions for the past two years) makes about $3.5 MILLION a year. This is not incredibly uncommon at these bigger state universities that have a big emphasis on sports. At the University of Minnesota (a school with no athletic achievement outside of hockey in many, many years, but still a Division 1 school), our head basketball coach makes $1.8 million a year and our head football coach $1.2 million.
But to be honest, the U.S. really has no excuse for the state of our education and healthcare systems. They're just pathetic.
While we are talking about education, do you think we should also reform the process in which someone can become a K-12 teacher? Given that education in my opinion affects your life than your local doctor, there definitely needs to be much more training put into teaching than what we already have. Also, although I believe in free education, do you think our teachers also deserve better pay?
I don't know where you're from, but in Minnesota, you need an intense 4-year degree that involves about two full years of classes that are solely on education training, on top of the degree in whatever you're teaching.
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On March 01 2013 13:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 13:27 oneofthem wrote:On March 01 2013 13:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 01 2013 12:56 sam!zdat wrote:
Does higher education really need to cost money? I don't get it. Why should "these guys" have to pay anyone back for anything? It didn't USE to cost money... Professors like dem paychecks too much :p schools spend a lot on infrastructure and whatnot, expansion projects. it's a competition against other schools in the rankings race. the modern university's administration knows that having a big endowment, good infrastructure, facilities, and pay for the top talents. all of that cost money Yea, it's definitely not professor salaries that cost so much. Professors make a rather modest amount of money for the amount of time and dedication it takes to become a professor and for how incredibly difficult it is to get a job in the profession.
Let's not forget the war against tenure-track positions and the fact that new professors are basically being treated like contract labor right now
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On March 01 2013 13:46 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 13:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 01 2013 13:27 oneofthem wrote:On March 01 2013 13:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 01 2013 12:56 sam!zdat wrote:
Does higher education really need to cost money? I don't get it. Why should "these guys" have to pay anyone back for anything? It didn't USE to cost money... Professors like dem paychecks too much :p schools spend a lot on infrastructure and whatnot, expansion projects. it's a competition against other schools in the rankings race. the modern university's administration knows that having a big endowment, good infrastructure, facilities, and pay for the top talents. all of that cost money Yea, it's definitely not professor salaries that cost so much. Professors make a rather modest amount of money for the amount of time and dedication it takes to become a professor and for how incredibly difficult it is to get a job in the profession. Let's not forget the war against tenure-track positions and the fact that new professors are basically being treated like contract labor right now
Very true. Professors have to go through more training than any other profession to do what they do (4 years of undergrad + a minimum 5 years of graduate school in the States, not to mention if you do a Masters before it, a post-doc afterwards, or take longer to finish your dissertation), spending more money than the vast, vast majority of professions to go through this education process, and yet job availability, security, pay, and benefits are all going down.
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I'm really sick this week so far so I haven't been posting but
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2718488
NIck saban makes 4 million a year before bonus's (hes won national championships 3 times in 4 years) and he could easily be making more then a million a year in bonus's with how good they've been doing.
Roll Tide
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^to be fair, having a phd doesn't help you create iphone applications, so it's of very little use to our country. people need to get with the times. less abstract thought, more coding!
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On March 01 2013 13:52 sam!zdat wrote:
^to be fair, having a phd doesn't help you create iphone applications, so it's of very little use to our country. people need to get with the times. less abstract thought, more coding!
Having a Ph.D. is what qualifies you to educate the individuals that are "useful" to society. So yes, they are INCREDIBLY valuable to society.
Saying that they are of very little use is like saying that K-12 teachers aren't useful to society.
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lol sorry I'm being facetious. I'm starting work on my phd in the fall
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We suck at placing a dollar value on human capital.
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On March 01 2013 13:56 sam!zdat wrote:lol sorry I'm being facetious. I'm starting work on my phd in the fall
Well-played, good sir.
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On March 01 2013 13:52 sam!zdat wrote:
^to be fair, having a phd doesn't help you create iphone applications, so it's of very little use to our country. people need to get with the times. less abstract thought, more coding!
I know you're being facetious, but that PhD helps you create the next iPhone for thousands of people to create new apps for.
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On March 01 2013 14:10 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 13:52 sam!zdat wrote:
^to be fair, having a phd doesn't help you create iphone applications, so it's of very little use to our country. people need to get with the times. less abstract thought, more coding! I know you're being facetious, but that PhD helps you create the next iPhone for thousands of people to create new apps for.
how?
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On March 01 2013 13:33 ControlMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 13:11 FallDownMarigold wrote:On March 01 2013 13:04 ControlMonkey wrote:
College fees don't worry me that much. But pre-school should be free. That's pretty thoughtful. I don't feel like searching and linking stuff, but I've heard that development at a very young age is really helpful toward future success in school and beyond. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HighScopeShow nested quote +The HighScope Perry Preschool Project was evaluated in a randomized controlled trial of 123 children (58 were randomly assigned to a treatment group that received the program and a control group of 65 children that did not). Prior to the program, the preschool and control groups were equivalent in measures of intellectual performance and demographic characteristics. After the program the educational and life outcomes for the children receiving the program were much superior to outcomes for the children not receiving the program. The effects were significant.[3]
Educational outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 27 follow-up
Completed an average of almost 1 full year more of schooling (11.9 years vs. 11 years)
Spent an average of 1.3 fewer years in special education services — e.g., for mental, emotional, speech, or learning impairment (3.9 years vs. 5.2 years)
44 percent higher high school graduation rate (66% vs. 45%)
Pregnancy outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 27 follow-up
Much lower proportion of out-of-wedlock births (57% vs. 83%)
Fewer teen pregnancies on average (0.6 pregnancies/woman vs. 1.2 pregnancies/woman)
Lifetime criminal activity for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 40 follow-up
46 percent less likely to have served time in jail or prison (28% vs. 52%)
33 percent lower arrest rate for violent crimes (32% vs. 48%)
Economic outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 40 follow-up
42 percent higher median monthly income ($1,856 vs. $1,308)
26 percent less likely to have received government assistance (e.g. welfare, food stamps) in the past ten years (59% vs. 80%)
The preschool program was about 12 hours a week over the course of 2 school years.
I think the difficulty with preschool programs is making them good throughout the country (can't seem to do that k-12 as is).
Article fwiw: Does subsidized pre-school pay off?
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On March 01 2013 14:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 13:33 ControlMonkey wrote:On March 01 2013 13:11 FallDownMarigold wrote:On March 01 2013 13:04 ControlMonkey wrote:
College fees don't worry me that much. But pre-school should be free. That's pretty thoughtful. I don't feel like searching and linking stuff, but I've heard that development at a very young age is really helpful toward future success in school and beyond. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HighScopeThe HighScope Perry Preschool Project was evaluated in a randomized controlled trial of 123 children (58 were randomly assigned to a treatment group that received the program and a control group of 65 children that did not). Prior to the program, the preschool and control groups were equivalent in measures of intellectual performance and demographic characteristics. After the program the educational and life outcomes for the children receiving the program were much superior to outcomes for the children not receiving the program. The effects were significant.[3]
Educational outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 27 follow-up
Completed an average of almost 1 full year more of schooling (11.9 years vs. 11 years)
Spent an average of 1.3 fewer years in special education services — e.g., for mental, emotional, speech, or learning impairment (3.9 years vs. 5.2 years)
44 percent higher high school graduation rate (66% vs. 45%)
Pregnancy outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 27 follow-up
Much lower proportion of out-of-wedlock births (57% vs. 83%)
Fewer teen pregnancies on average (0.6 pregnancies/woman vs. 1.2 pregnancies/woman)
Lifetime criminal activity for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 40 follow-up
46 percent less likely to have served time in jail or prison (28% vs. 52%)
33 percent lower arrest rate for violent crimes (32% vs. 48%)
Economic outcomes for preschool group (versus control group):
At age 40 follow-up
42 percent higher median monthly income ($1,856 vs. $1,308)
26 percent less likely to have received government assistance (e.g. welfare, food stamps) in the past ten years (59% vs. 80%)
The preschool program was about 12 hours a week over the course of 2 school years. I think the difficulty with preschool programs is making them good throughout the country (can't seem to do that k-12 as is). Article fwiw: Does subsidized pre-school pay off?
Of course, there are never any easy answers...
Need to do some reading on this.
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On March 01 2013 13:13 sam!zdat wrote:
of course, when politicians/economists say "education," they really just mean "STEM"... I think that's a bigger problem than anything else
What's funny is that the Soviet Union suffered from a very similar myopia about education, but in their case the political elite really did come to eventually comprise STEM technocrats. (A technocrat who's not a liberal, the horror!) Didn't work out too well for them that it's really a great model to emulate...
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EPT
