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On August 21 2014 10:37 IgnE wrote:
Talking about "black culture" is a red herring. The government has been waging war on families since at least the 1980s, despite whatever "liberal tinkering" that Fox news would have you believe is the cause of fractured family units. If you really want to delve into the subject, you should wonder why the nuclear family should be the Platonic ideal, rather than a broad-based social structure that includes extended relatives and friends.
If there's one good thing about capitalism , it is that it broke up the "traditional family". The traditional family isn't a 'platonic ideal', it's pretty much the opposite. It's a very economical structure with the goal to produce a lot of babies while the social circle is as small as possible.
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On August 21 2014 11:05 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 10:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Their "culture" is largely a product of the system.
And when you can actually say that other minorities had as bad of a history in the U.S. as black people have (which you can't), then you can use that comparison. Until then, it's a poor one.
And what tinkering have liberals done to this system? A pathetic amount has been done to try to address institutional racism in this country. I note that native American history in the US is as bad as blacks had it.
And that's why most of them died out, became alcoholics, got addicted to gambling, etc.?
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On August 21 2014 11:05 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 10:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Their "culture" is largely a product of the system.
And when you can actually say that other minorities had as bad of a history in the U.S. as black people have (which you can't), then you can use that comparison. Until then, it's a poor one.
And what tinkering have liberals done to this system? A pathetic amount has been done to try to address institutional racism in this country. I note that native American history in the US is as bad as blacks had it.
Native Americans had it pretty horribly, and also suffer from most of the same racial problems today that black people do. Their population is just much, much, much smaller, so we don't see it as much.
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Personally, I love seeing liberals struggle to explain why Asians have succeeded where Blacks haven't. Their histories are very similar -- a better fit than Indians.
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Have I missed the part of American history about Americans turning their Asian immigrants into slaves? The histories of both groups aren't similar, they're literally the opposite.
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On August 21 2014 11:25 Nyxisto wrote:
Have I missed the part of American history about Americans turning their Asian immigrants into slaves? The histories of both groups aren't similar, they're literally the opposite.
Yep, apparently you have. Go read up on how Asians were treated in the Western US during the 19th century. Pay special attention to some of the laws passed in California and railroad construction.
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It's really not the same, xDaunt. It's not good, but the Atlantic slave trade is really a whole nother thing. Chinese laborers would go back and forth between China and the West Coast (even during the exclusion act). They maintained ties with their homes throughout the entire process (and the Chinese as a people have a long history of extended expatriate networks, it's sort of a specialty). There was no wholesale severing of cultural continuity, not even close.
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On August 21 2014 11:25 Nyxisto wrote:
Have I missed the part of American history about Americans turning their Asian immigrants into slaves? The histories of both groups aren't similar, they're literally the opposite.
You did. Between Chinese railroad workers, exclusion acts, and internment, America had a rich history of discriminating against and exploiting Asian immigrants. This is also without considering that America has fought four wars in Asia in the last century, collectively killing about 8 million people.
Most Asian immigrants have come to the US from similar sorts of grinding poverty, horrifically oppressive regimes, and ruthless Western exploitation as we see in Africa.
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On August 21 2014 11:21 xDaunt wrote:
Personally, I love seeing liberals struggle to explain why Asians have succeeded where Blacks haven't. Their histories are very similar -- a better fit than Indians.
My guess the whole lack of destruction of any semblance of family, the non-criminal nature of reading, often easier for them to pass as white (or white enough), significantly less time and areas where they were legally forbidden to own property, they don't have generations of breeding the idea of inferiority into their children in order to protect them, just to name a few key differences historically. Not to mention the prejudices are not even remotely comparable.
Comparing 'Asian's' and black's histories in America is a pretty huge red flag you have no idea what you are talking about.
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On August 21 2014 10:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 10:37 IgnE wrote:
Talking about "black culture" is a red herring. The government has been waging war on families since at least the 1980s, despite whatever "liberal tinkering" that Fox news would have you believe is the cause of fractured family units. If you really want to delve into the subject, you should wonder why the nuclear family should be the Platonic ideal, rather than a broad-based social structure that includes extended relatives and friends. Capitalism alienates people from each other, and the mindless consumerism drilled into every American erodes "family values" far more than the local Planned Parenthood.
You can't solve a societal problem by encouraging individuals in an impoverished, disenfranchised community to focus on "getting an education." It is impossible for all, most, or even a significant number of them to "get scholarships" to colleges that will lead them to a better life. It's mind-blowing how "work hard in school and hope to get a scholarship" is presented as serious advice. For the scheme to work there is a requirement for a large multiple of those who make it out to be failures who don't make it out. It certainly helps, unless your premise is that public schools are a waste. Edit: when did education become a crazy 'conservative' idea??
Education itself isn't some "crazy conservative idea," just that it's the proposed solution to the inequality and poverty problems by a lot of moderates and conservatives alike.
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On August 21 2014 11:35 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 10:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 10:37 IgnE wrote:
Talking about "black culture" is a red herring. The government has been waging war on families since at least the 1980s, despite whatever "liberal tinkering" that Fox news would have you believe is the cause of fractured family units. If you really want to delve into the subject, you should wonder why the nuclear family should be the Platonic ideal, rather than a broad-based social structure that includes extended relatives and friends. Capitalism alienates people from each other, and the mindless consumerism drilled into every American erodes "family values" far more than the local Planned Parenthood.
You can't solve a societal problem by encouraging individuals in an impoverished, disenfranchised community to focus on "getting an education." It is impossible for all, most, or even a significant number of them to "get scholarships" to colleges that will lead them to a better life. It's mind-blowing how "work hard in school and hope to get a scholarship" is presented as serious advice. For the scheme to work there is a requirement for a large multiple of those who make it out to be failures who don't make it out. It certainly helps, unless your premise is that public schools are a waste. Edit: when did education become a crazy 'conservative' idea?? Education itself isn't some "crazy conservative idea," just that it's the proposed solution to the inequality and poverty problems by a lot of moderates and conservatives alike.
... and liberals...
I thought there was a pretty wide consensus on education being an important part of a solution.
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On August 21 2014 11:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 11:35 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 10:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 10:37 IgnE wrote:
Talking about "black culture" is a red herring. The government has been waging war on families since at least the 1980s, despite whatever "liberal tinkering" that Fox news would have you believe is the cause of fractured family units. If you really want to delve into the subject, you should wonder why the nuclear family should be the Platonic ideal, rather than a broad-based social structure that includes extended relatives and friends. Capitalism alienates people from each other, and the mindless consumerism drilled into every American erodes "family values" far more than the local Planned Parenthood.
You can't solve a societal problem by encouraging individuals in an impoverished, disenfranchised community to focus on "getting an education." It is impossible for all, most, or even a significant number of them to "get scholarships" to colleges that will lead them to a better life. It's mind-blowing how "work hard in school and hope to get a scholarship" is presented as serious advice. For the scheme to work there is a requirement for a large multiple of those who make it out to be failures who don't make it out. It certainly helps, unless your premise is that public schools are a waste. Edit: when did education become a crazy 'conservative' idea?? Education itself isn't some "crazy conservative idea," just that it's the proposed solution to the inequality and poverty problems by a lot of moderates and conservatives alike. ... and liberals... I thought there was a pretty wide consensus on education being an important part of a solution.
"Education" is a universally accepted answer. The devil is in the details...
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On August 21 2014 11:26 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 11:25 Nyxisto wrote:
Have I missed the part of American history about Americans turning their Asian immigrants into slaves? The histories of both groups aren't similar, they're literally the opposite. Yep, apparently you have. Go read up on how Asians were treated in the Western US during the 19th century. Pay special attention to some of the laws passed in California and railroad construction.
I wasn't aware of the discrimination against Asians in the US, but comparing that to the systemic enslavement of African Americans seems a little out of place.
On August 21 2014 11:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 11:35 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 10:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 10:37 IgnE wrote:
Talking about "black culture" is a red herring. The government has been waging war on families since at least the 1980s, despite whatever "liberal tinkering" that Fox news would have you believe is the cause of fractured family units. If you really want to delve into the subject, you should wonder why the nuclear family should be the Platonic ideal, rather than a broad-based social structure that includes extended relatives and friends. Capitalism alienates people from each other, and the mindless consumerism drilled into every American erodes "family values" far more than the local Planned Parenthood.
You can't solve a societal problem by encouraging individuals in an impoverished, disenfranchised community to focus on "getting an education." It is impossible for all, most, or even a significant number of them to "get scholarships" to colleges that will lead them to a better life. It's mind-blowing how "work hard in school and hope to get a scholarship" is presented as serious advice. For the scheme to work there is a requirement for a large multiple of those who make it out to be failures who don't make it out. It certainly helps, unless your premise is that public schools are a waste. Edit: when did education become a crazy 'conservative' idea?? Education itself isn't some "crazy conservative idea," just that it's the proposed solution to the inequality and poverty problems by a lot of moderates and conservatives alike. ... and liberals... I thought there was a pretty wide consensus on education being an important part of a solution.
I guess the point is that education shouldn't be a way of driving millions of students into tens of thousands of dollars of debt. Student loans in the US have reached one trillion dollars in size. That's not education, that's a giant money lending scam.
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Don't forget the destructive discrimination against Irish people. They still haven't recovered.
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On August 21 2014 11:44 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 11:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 11:35 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 10:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 10:37 IgnE wrote:
Talking about "black culture" is a red herring. The government has been waging war on families since at least the 1980s, despite whatever "liberal tinkering" that Fox news would have you believe is the cause of fractured family units. If you really want to delve into the subject, you should wonder why the nuclear family should be the Platonic ideal, rather than a broad-based social structure that includes extended relatives and friends. Capitalism alienates people from each other, and the mindless consumerism drilled into every American erodes "family values" far more than the local Planned Parenthood.
You can't solve a societal problem by encouraging individuals in an impoverished, disenfranchised community to focus on "getting an education." It is impossible for all, most, or even a significant number of them to "get scholarships" to colleges that will lead them to a better life. It's mind-blowing how "work hard in school and hope to get a scholarship" is presented as serious advice. For the scheme to work there is a requirement for a large multiple of those who make it out to be failures who don't make it out. It certainly helps, unless your premise is that public schools are a waste. Edit: when did education become a crazy 'conservative' idea?? Education itself isn't some "crazy conservative idea," just that it's the proposed solution to the inequality and poverty problems by a lot of moderates and conservatives alike. ... and liberals... I thought there was a pretty wide consensus on education being an important part of a solution. "Education" is a universally accepted answer. The devil is in the details...
What an asshole 
On August 21 2014 11:44 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 11:26 xDaunt wrote:On August 21 2014 11:25 Nyxisto wrote:
Have I missed the part of American history about Americans turning their Asian immigrants into slaves? The histories of both groups aren't similar, they're literally the opposite. Yep, apparently you have. Go read up on how Asians were treated in the Western US during the 19th century. Pay special attention to some of the laws passed in California and railroad construction. I wasn't aware of the discrimination against Asians in the US, but comparing that to the systemic enslavement of African Americans seems a little out of place. Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 11:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 11:35 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 10:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 10:37 IgnE wrote:
Talking about "black culture" is a red herring. The government has been waging war on families since at least the 1980s, despite whatever "liberal tinkering" that Fox news would have you believe is the cause of fractured family units. If you really want to delve into the subject, you should wonder why the nuclear family should be the Platonic ideal, rather than a broad-based social structure that includes extended relatives and friends. Capitalism alienates people from each other, and the mindless consumerism drilled into every American erodes "family values" far more than the local Planned Parenthood.
You can't solve a societal problem by encouraging individuals in an impoverished, disenfranchised community to focus on "getting an education." It is impossible for all, most, or even a significant number of them to "get scholarships" to colleges that will lead them to a better life. It's mind-blowing how "work hard in school and hope to get a scholarship" is presented as serious advice. For the scheme to work there is a requirement for a large multiple of those who make it out to be failures who don't make it out. It certainly helps, unless your premise is that public schools are a waste. Edit: when did education become a crazy 'conservative' idea?? Education itself isn't some "crazy conservative idea," just that it's the proposed solution to the inequality and poverty problems by a lot of moderates and conservatives alike. ... and liberals... I thought there was a pretty wide consensus on education being an important part of a solution. I guess the point is that education shouldn't be a way of driving millions of students into tens of thousands of dollars of debt. Student loans in the US have reached one trillion dollars in size. That's not education, that's a giant money lending scam.
Kinda done with this conversation, but it's not a scam. Higher education in the US is a great value, debt be damned. Arguably it's one of the best values in the OECD. If you want my source on that statement you can search for the OECD education statistics or my past posts on the topic.
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On August 21 2014 11:46 IgnE wrote:
Don't forget the destructive discrimination against Irish people. They still haven't recovered.
Shit man, black people discriminate against white people all the time! Thankfully the white community was able to rise above this hardship through the power of positive thinking.
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All joking aside, the Irish are one of the more oppressed people in the history of the earth. People forget this because the Irish are "white" (whatever that is)
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On August 21 2014 11:48 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Kinda done with this conversation, but it's not a scam. Higher education in the US is a great value, debt be damned. Arguably it's one of the best values in the OECD. If you want my source on that statement you can search for the OECD education statistics or my past posts on the topic.
You can have that without putting young people into a financially hazardous situation, though. It's not like our university system is third world level over here.
Edit: What does actually happen if you drop out, hang yourself?(Not a rhetorical question, how do dropouts actually pay these loans off?)
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On August 21 2014 11:28 bookwyrm wrote:
It's really not the same, xDaunt. It's not good, but the Atlantic slave trade is really a whole nother thing. Chinese laborers would go back and forth between China and the West Coast (even during the exclusion act). They maintained ties with their homes throughout the entire process (and the Chinese as a people have a long history of extended expatriate networks, it's sort of a specialty). There was no wholesale severing of cultural continuity, not even close.
I've heard lots of explanations, and none of them has been satisfactory. This cultural tie with the homeland thing is a new one though. Why does it matter? More to the point, why does it matter two centuries after such ties were severed?
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Both my undergrad and current graduate degree were done at universities that are about half-Asian. Well, since I started my undergrad, I got curious as to why this was the case. The difference is in many of these East Asian cultures, these people come to the US and are pushed by their past in usually poor conditions to be extremely persistent that their kids grow up to highly value education and do well academically. Meanwhile, American / African-American culture is largely the opposite. For the most part, African-American communities largely push kids to try to be athletically successful, which is okay if you're in that 0.001% of professional athletes, but terrible otherwise. Suffice is to say, they're not anywhere near as intense as pushing their kids to be really academically successful.
In a nutshell, that's the difference between African-Americans and Asians. Also, blacks suffer from the disadvantage that American culture isn't hardcore about education to start with. Obviously, most of these Asians are immigrants or children of immigrants who have strongly diligent and education-focused cultures to draw from. The cultural and social influence is absolutely paramount, and in an era where despite fantastical degrees of affirmative action and 'reconciliation' for African-Americans, African-Americans are still by and large in a shitty situation.
Unless American culture as a whole and African-American communities change, we're going to see the same thing on and on as a nation. A somewhat related aside: + Show Spoiler +we literally rely overwhelmingly on foreigners and kids of foreigners to be the brains of this country. I think we're the only developed country like that. God only knows how much worse off we'd be without the legions of foreigners and first-generation Americans carrying us as an advanced nation in the present age.
Also, for what it's worth, I'm not Asian and I haven't been a stereotypical TL Korea fanboy for years now, so it's not like I favor Asians for any particular reason. Many of them are just very academically-focused due to their upbringing and their folks' old cultures.
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EPT
