In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On August 21 2014 09:37 farvacola wrote: I just wanted to let y'all know that I've found the preceding conversation very fun and interesting, as I've just started law school.
When I have time I'll add my 2 cents. :D
Yuck. I'd recommend against law school for most people.
On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote: I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not.
I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back.
It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making.
And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents.
The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions.
"I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life.
Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record.
So you are saying that you cut the shit and took control of your life and it is working out? Sounds like working as intended to me.
I'm not sure why coloured folk shouldn't be insulted that you think they couldn't do that as well because you seem to think they are lesser people than the "white male from a middle class family". That attitude just insults them and enables unaccountable, undesirable behavior because self hating apologists convince them there is no way out of the situation they were born into.
Then again I know no poor black people so I'm hardly an authority on the matter. I'm more comparing the US black situation to my familiarity with Canada's First Nations problems.
His point is that for him your imaginary system worked not solely because of his actions but because he was in an environment designed to work for people like him, he had a support group around him with resources to help him, he had no pressing financial or healthcare concerns, he was not punished for the mistakes he made. The point is that if you take away that, if you have the same mentality but have nobody waiting to support you for a few months while you work shit out, if you get a record for something you wouldn't have in a richer area (the coke vs crack sentencing issue) and so forth then that track that fixes everything disappears.
There is a track. It was built by middle class white guys to make sure middle class white guys have an easy time. You keep going "well I don't know why poor black guys are having so much trouble, this track seems pretty awesome to me".
I tried like ten times typing a response to this but kept ending up derailing it with a Canada/First Nations or Canada/Black viewpoint. I admit defeat until next time a situation triggers a discussion of America vs. Blacks. I still feel there is too much blame, not enough accountability and no solutions to the problem with black people.
I hope for a future where the black individual will make choices for personal growth and not destructive choices, where successful black people are attempted to be emulated not discarded as unreachable anomalies.
The problem with the conservative viewpoint is that they just hand-wave away intricate and nuanced discussions of the problem that black Americans have.
Everyone knows that they have responsibility for their own actions. A random black kid that shoots up a convenience store and robs them gets thrown in jail. He deserves to be there. He broke the law.
The problem that liberals focus on and conservatives refuse to acknowledge is that society actively works against black people and keeps them down. The legal system (police, juries, and judges) disproportionately targets and punishes black people. Black people are disproportionately affected by and are born into poverty. black people are significantly less likely to be hired at companies; even if employers are looking at resumes only, they are far more likely to throw out a resume with a black-sounding name, even if it has equal or superior credentials. Social mobility in the U.S. is more difficult than in Canada, England, Germany, France, the Low Countries, and all Scandinavian countries, which disproportionately affects black people.
Our country is one of the most racist in the world, even if overtly racist actions aren't as common, due to the fact that racism is institutionalized and heavily entrenched in all parts of society. A discussion about how "black people should take more responsibility for their own actions" is complete bullshit. They take responsibility for it all the time. Everyone acknowledges that a black person committing a crime deserves punishment. Everyone knows that you don't just magically hand out money to the black community. The real discussion is what leads black people to commit crimes or end up in poverty at such disproportionate levels and how we can fix that.
The discussion isn't about how we even the outcomes between the black community and other communities. The discussion is about how we level the playing field of society for the black community when compared to other communities so that they can then take responsibility for themselves like you want to. Because right now, the playing field is not level, and black people can't just "take responsibility for themselves" because the system doesn't let them; it oppresses them.
Equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Black people currently do not have equal opportunity. That's what we are trying to fix.
So does "black culture" or the like bear any responsibility? (that's a topic many conservative African-Americans have talked about.) How is it the fault of "the system" that so many African-Americans are born out of wedlock or have their fathers leave them and their mother? Despite it being the year 2014, somehow these numbers are higher than they've ever been- true for all groups, but espeically AA (and Hispanics).
To be clear, there are obviously multiple factors at work, but it seems that on the flip side of your post, liberals place undue emphasis on the system despite the fact that all their tinkering makes minimal progress (in terms of economic and education outcomes).
Good 'argument'. "Well I know there might be a systemic problem with the institution and black people, but have you considered that maybe *insert random statistic or allegation with no explanation or context* indicates that they're just a bunch of lazy ole niggers?"
This 'argument' has popped up on every page, with conservatives suddenly coming out of the woodwork to defend the government they so often decry by giving a harumph and saying that there's a problem with black people. God forbid we fix problems with the government that don't have anything to do with white people, because that would just be a waste of conservative tax dollars.
On August 21 2014 09:37 farvacola wrote: I just wanted to let y'all know that I've found the preceding conversation very fun and interesting, as I've just started law school.
When I have time I'll add my 2 cents. :D
Yuck. I'd recommend against law school for most people.
my dad was smart, went to law school, joined a firm, worked there for the rest of his life and now he's a partner. must have been nice, being a baby boomer
On August 21 2014 09:37 farvacola wrote: I just wanted to let y'all know that I've found the preceding conversation very fun and interesting, as I've just started law school.
When I have time I'll add my 2 cents. :D
Yuck. I'd recommend against law school for most people.
my dad was smart, went to law school, joined a firm, worked there for the rest of his life and now he's a partner. must have been nice, being a baby boomer
The dynamics certainly aren't the same now as they were then.
On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote: I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not.
I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back.
It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making.
And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents.
The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions.
"I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life.
Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record.
So you are saying that you cut the shit and took control of your life and it is working out? Sounds like working as intended to me.
I'm not sure why coloured folk shouldn't be insulted that you think they couldn't do that as well because you seem to think they are lesser people than the "white male from a middle class family". That attitude just insults them and enables unaccountable, undesirable behavior because self hating apologists convince them there is no way out of the situation they were born into.
Then again I know no poor black people so I'm hardly an authority on the matter. I'm more comparing the US black situation to my familiarity with Canada's First Nations problems.
His point is that for him your imaginary system worked not solely because of his actions but because he was in an environment designed to work for people like him, he had a support group around him with resources to help him, he had no pressing financial or healthcare concerns, he was not punished for the mistakes he made. The point is that if you take away that, if you have the same mentality but have nobody waiting to support you for a few months while you work shit out, if you get a record for something you wouldn't have in a richer area (the coke vs crack sentencing issue) and so forth then that track that fixes everything disappears.
There is a track. It was built by middle class white guys to make sure middle class white guys have an easy time. You keep going "well I don't know why poor black guys are having so much trouble, this track seems pretty awesome to me".
I tried like ten times typing a response to this but kept ending up derailing it with a Canada/First Nations or Canada/Black viewpoint. I admit defeat until next time a situation triggers a discussion of America vs. Blacks. I still feel there is too much blame, not enough accountability and no solutions to the problem with black people.
I hope for a future where the black individual will make choices for personal growth and not destructive choices, where successful black people are attempted to be emulated not discarded as unreachable anomalies.
The problem with the conservative viewpoint is that they just hand-wave away intricate and nuanced discussions of the problem that black Americans have.
Everyone knows that they have responsibility for their own actions. A random black kid that shoots up a convenience store and robs them gets thrown in jail. He deserves to be there. He broke the law.
The problem that liberals focus on and conservatives refuse to acknowledge is that society actively works against black people and keeps them down. The legal system (police, juries, and judges) disproportionately targets and punishes black people. Black people are disproportionately affected by and are born into poverty. black people are significantly less likely to be hired at companies; even if employers are looking at resumes only, they are far more likely to throw out a resume with a black-sounding name, even if it has equal or superior credentials. Social mobility in the U.S. is more difficult than in Canada, England, Germany, France, the Low Countries, and all Scandinavian countries, which disproportionately affects black people.
Our country is one of the most racist in the world, even if overtly racist actions aren't as common, due to the fact that racism is institutionalized and heavily entrenched in all parts of society. A discussion about how "black people should take more responsibility for their own actions" is complete bullshit. They take responsibility for it all the time. Everyone acknowledges that a black person committing a crime deserves punishment. Everyone knows that you don't just magically hand out money to the black community. The real discussion is what leads black people to commit crimes or end up in poverty at such disproportionate levels and how we can fix that.
The discussion isn't about how we even the outcomes between the black community and other communities. The discussion is about how we level the playing field of society for the black community when compared to other communities so that they can then take responsibility for themselves like you want to. Because right now, the playing field is not level, and black people can't just "take responsibility for themselves" because the system doesn't let them; it oppresses them.
Equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Black people currently do not have equal opportunity. That's what we are trying to fix.
So does "black culture" or the like bear any responsibility? (that's a topic many conservative African-Americans have talked about.) How is it the fault of "the system" that so many African-Americans are born out of wedlock or have their fathers leave them and their mother? Despite it being the year 2014, somehow these numbers are higher than they've ever been- true for all groups, but espeically AA (and Hispanics).
To be clear, there are obviously multiple factors at work, but it seems that on the flip side of your post, liberals place undue emphasis on the system despite the fact that all their tinkering makes minimal progress (in terms of economic and education outcomes).
Good 'argument'. "Well I know there might be a systemic problem with the institution and black people, but have you considered that maybe *insert random statistic or allegation with no explanation or context* indicates that they're just a bunch of lazy ole niggers?"
This 'argument' has popped up on every page, with conservatives suddenly coming out of the woodwork to defend the government they so often decry by giving a harumph and saying that there's a problem with black people. God forbid we fix problems with the government that don't have anything to do with white people, because that would just be a waste of conservative tax dollars.
I started to write a reply but then realized if I was basically being accused of being a racist ("there is a problem with black people" or "but have you considered that maybe *insert random statistic or allegation with no explanation or context* indicates that they're just a bunch of lazy ole niggers?") and having such offensive words put into my mouth, it's not worth it.
My response to Stratos_speAr was similar to his post- he made some arguments based on well known statistics, and even some claims that I've never seen any statistical backing for. I didn't see you criticizing any of that. Take your trash accusations and strawmen elsewhere.
"Officer Go fuck yourself" should really take some classes. Going around waving your gun at people threatening to kill them will get you killed...
yeah. He should be permanent fired for cause, and charged with something misdemeanor-ish.
While all this attention is on ferguson, I note that some 45-ish people a day are being murdered in the US; and I'm assuming a larger number than that in the Mideast. Of course, case studies are useful, and sometimes this overfocus on what might otherwise be a minor local incident serves as a case study for larger issues.
On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote: [quote] I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back.
It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making.
And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents.
The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions.
"I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life.
Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record.
So you are saying that you cut the shit and took control of your life and it is working out? Sounds like working as intended to me.
I'm not sure why coloured folk shouldn't be insulted that you think they couldn't do that as well because you seem to think they are lesser people than the "white male from a middle class family". That attitude just insults them and enables unaccountable, undesirable behavior because self hating apologists convince them there is no way out of the situation they were born into.
Then again I know no poor black people so I'm hardly an authority on the matter. I'm more comparing the US black situation to my familiarity with Canada's First Nations problems.
His point is that for him your imaginary system worked not solely because of his actions but because he was in an environment designed to work for people like him, he had a support group around him with resources to help him, he had no pressing financial or healthcare concerns, he was not punished for the mistakes he made. The point is that if you take away that, if you have the same mentality but have nobody waiting to support you for a few months while you work shit out, if you get a record for something you wouldn't have in a richer area (the coke vs crack sentencing issue) and so forth then that track that fixes everything disappears.
There is a track. It was built by middle class white guys to make sure middle class white guys have an easy time. You keep going "well I don't know why poor black guys are having so much trouble, this track seems pretty awesome to me".
I tried like ten times typing a response to this but kept ending up derailing it with a Canada/First Nations or Canada/Black viewpoint. I admit defeat until next time a situation triggers a discussion of America vs. Blacks. I still feel there is too much blame, not enough accountability and no solutions to the problem with black people.
I hope for a future where the black individual will make choices for personal growth and not destructive choices, where successful black people are attempted to be emulated not discarded as unreachable anomalies.
The problem with the conservative viewpoint is that they just hand-wave away intricate and nuanced discussions of the problem that black Americans have.
Everyone knows that they have responsibility for their own actions. A random black kid that shoots up a convenience store and robs them gets thrown in jail. He deserves to be there. He broke the law.
The problem that liberals focus on and conservatives refuse to acknowledge is that society actively works against black people and keeps them down. The legal system (police, juries, and judges) disproportionately targets and punishes black people. Black people are disproportionately affected by and are born into poverty. black people are significantly less likely to be hired at companies; even if employers are looking at resumes only, they are far more likely to throw out a resume with a black-sounding name, even if it has equal or superior credentials. Social mobility in the U.S. is more difficult than in Canada, England, Germany, France, the Low Countries, and all Scandinavian countries, which disproportionately affects black people.
Our country is one of the most racist in the world, even if overtly racist actions aren't as common, due to the fact that racism is institutionalized and heavily entrenched in all parts of society. A discussion about how "black people should take more responsibility for their own actions" is complete bullshit. They take responsibility for it all the time. Everyone acknowledges that a black person committing a crime deserves punishment. Everyone knows that you don't just magically hand out money to the black community. The real discussion is what leads black people to commit crimes or end up in poverty at such disproportionate levels and how we can fix that.
The discussion isn't about how we even the outcomes between the black community and other communities. The discussion is about how we level the playing field of society for the black community when compared to other communities so that they can then take responsibility for themselves like you want to. Because right now, the playing field is not level, and black people can't just "take responsibility for themselves" because the system doesn't let them; it oppresses them.
Equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Black people currently do not have equal opportunity. That's what we are trying to fix.
So does "black culture" or the like bear any responsibility? (that's a topic many conservative African-Americans have talked about.) How is it the fault of "the system" that so many African-Americans are born out of wedlock or have their fathers leave them and their mother? Despite it being the year 2014, somehow these numbers are higher than they've ever been- true for all groups, but espeically AA (and Hispanics).
To be clear, there are obviously multiple factors at work, but it seems that on the flip side of your post, liberals place undue emphasis on the system despite the fact that all their tinkering makes minimal progress (in terms of economic and education outcomes).
Good 'argument'. "Well I know there might be a systemic problem with the institution and black people, but have you considered that maybe *insert random statistic or allegation with no explanation or context* indicates that they're just a bunch of lazy ole niggers?"
This 'argument' has popped up on every page, with conservatives suddenly coming out of the woodwork to defend the government they so often decry by giving a harumph and saying that there's a problem with black people. God forbid we fix problems with the government that don't have anything to do with white people, because that would just be a waste of conservative tax dollars.
I started to write a reply but then realized if I was basically being accused of being a racist ("there is a problem with black people" or "but have you considered that maybe *insert random statistic or allegation with no explanation or context* indicates that they're just a bunch of lazy ole niggers?") and having such offensive words put into my mouth, it's not worth it.
My response to Stratos_speAr was similar to his post- he made some arguments based on well known statistics, and even some claims that I've never seen any statistical backing for. I didn't see you criticizing any of that. Take your trash accusations and strawmen elsewhere.
You can phrase it however you want, but having grown up in Greensboro there is absolutely zero doubt as to where this attitude originates. The fact that conservatives down here have stopped using 'offensive language' in public does not mean the attitude has changed one iota. The idea that black people are intrinsically inferior has thrived in the conservative base ever since the dixiecrats joined.
The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions.
"I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life.
Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record.
So you are saying that you cut the shit and took control of your life and it is working out? Sounds like working as intended to me.
I'm not sure why coloured folk shouldn't be insulted that you think they couldn't do that as well because you seem to think they are lesser people than the "white male from a middle class family". That attitude just insults them and enables unaccountable, undesirable behavior because self hating apologists convince them there is no way out of the situation they were born into.
Then again I know no poor black people so I'm hardly an authority on the matter. I'm more comparing the US black situation to my familiarity with Canada's First Nations problems.
His point is that for him your imaginary system worked not solely because of his actions but because he was in an environment designed to work for people like him, he had a support group around him with resources to help him, he had no pressing financial or healthcare concerns, he was not punished for the mistakes he made. The point is that if you take away that, if you have the same mentality but have nobody waiting to support you for a few months while you work shit out, if you get a record for something you wouldn't have in a richer area (the coke vs crack sentencing issue) and so forth then that track that fixes everything disappears.
There is a track. It was built by middle class white guys to make sure middle class white guys have an easy time. You keep going "well I don't know why poor black guys are having so much trouble, this track seems pretty awesome to me".
I tried like ten times typing a response to this but kept ending up derailing it with a Canada/First Nations or Canada/Black viewpoint. I admit defeat until next time a situation triggers a discussion of America vs. Blacks. I still feel there is too much blame, not enough accountability and no solutions to the problem with black people.
I hope for a future where the black individual will make choices for personal growth and not destructive choices, where successful black people are attempted to be emulated not discarded as unreachable anomalies.
The problem with the conservative viewpoint is that they just hand-wave away intricate and nuanced discussions of the problem that black Americans have.
Everyone knows that they have responsibility for their own actions. A random black kid that shoots up a convenience store and robs them gets thrown in jail. He deserves to be there. He broke the law.
The problem that liberals focus on and conservatives refuse to acknowledge is that society actively works against black people and keeps them down. The legal system (police, juries, and judges) disproportionately targets and punishes black people. Black people are disproportionately affected by and are born into poverty. black people are significantly less likely to be hired at companies; even if employers are looking at resumes only, they are far more likely to throw out a resume with a black-sounding name, even if it has equal or superior credentials. Social mobility in the U.S. is more difficult than in Canada, England, Germany, France, the Low Countries, and all Scandinavian countries, which disproportionately affects black people.
Our country is one of the most racist in the world, even if overtly racist actions aren't as common, due to the fact that racism is institutionalized and heavily entrenched in all parts of society. A discussion about how "black people should take more responsibility for their own actions" is complete bullshit. They take responsibility for it all the time. Everyone acknowledges that a black person committing a crime deserves punishment. Everyone knows that you don't just magically hand out money to the black community. The real discussion is what leads black people to commit crimes or end up in poverty at such disproportionate levels and how we can fix that.
The discussion isn't about how we even the outcomes between the black community and other communities. The discussion is about how we level the playing field of society for the black community when compared to other communities so that they can then take responsibility for themselves like you want to. Because right now, the playing field is not level, and black people can't just "take responsibility for themselves" because the system doesn't let them; it oppresses them.
Equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Black people currently do not have equal opportunity. That's what we are trying to fix.
So does "black culture" or the like bear any responsibility? (that's a topic many conservative African-Americans have talked about.) How is it the fault of "the system" that so many African-Americans are born out of wedlock or have their fathers leave them and their mother? Despite it being the year 2014, somehow these numbers are higher than they've ever been- true for all groups, but espeically AA (and Hispanics).
To be clear, there are obviously multiple factors at work, but it seems that on the flip side of your post, liberals place undue emphasis on the system despite the fact that all their tinkering makes minimal progress (in terms of economic and education outcomes).
Good 'argument'. "Well I know there might be a systemic problem with the institution and black people, but have you considered that maybe *insert random statistic or allegation with no explanation or context* indicates that they're just a bunch of lazy ole niggers?"
This 'argument' has popped up on every page, with conservatives suddenly coming out of the woodwork to defend the government they so often decry by giving a harumph and saying that there's a problem with black people. God forbid we fix problems with the government that don't have anything to do with white people, because that would just be a waste of conservative tax dollars.
I started to write a reply but then realized if I was basically being accused of being a racist ("there is a problem with black people" or "but have you considered that maybe *insert random statistic or allegation with no explanation or context* indicates that they're just a bunch of lazy ole niggers?") and having such offensive words put into my mouth, it's not worth it.
My response to Stratos_speAr was similar to his post- he made some arguments based on well known statistics, and even some claims that I've never seen any statistical backing for. I didn't see you criticizing any of that. Take your trash accusations and strawmen elsewhere.
You can phrase it however you want, but having grown up in Greensboro there is absolutely zero doubt as to where this attitude originates. The fact that conservatives down here have stopped using 'offensive language' in public does not mean the attitude has changed one iota. The idea that black people are intrinsically inferior has thrived in the conservative base ever since the dixiecrats joined.
So why are we talking about black oppression in liberal cities?
The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions.
"I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life.
Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record.
So you are saying that you cut the shit and took control of your life and it is working out? Sounds like working as intended to me.
I'm not sure why coloured folk shouldn't be insulted that you think they couldn't do that as well because you seem to think they are lesser people than the "white male from a middle class family". That attitude just insults them and enables unaccountable, undesirable behavior because self hating apologists convince them there is no way out of the situation they were born into.
Then again I know no poor black people so I'm hardly an authority on the matter. I'm more comparing the US black situation to my familiarity with Canada's First Nations problems.
His point is that for him your imaginary system worked not solely because of his actions but because he was in an environment designed to work for people like him, he had a support group around him with resources to help him, he had no pressing financial or healthcare concerns, he was not punished for the mistakes he made. The point is that if you take away that, if you have the same mentality but have nobody waiting to support you for a few months while you work shit out, if you get a record for something you wouldn't have in a richer area (the coke vs crack sentencing issue) and so forth then that track that fixes everything disappears.
There is a track. It was built by middle class white guys to make sure middle class white guys have an easy time. You keep going "well I don't know why poor black guys are having so much trouble, this track seems pretty awesome to me".
I tried like ten times typing a response to this but kept ending up derailing it with a Canada/First Nations or Canada/Black viewpoint. I admit defeat until next time a situation triggers a discussion of America vs. Blacks. I still feel there is too much blame, not enough accountability and no solutions to the problem with black people.
I hope for a future where the black individual will make choices for personal growth and not destructive choices, where successful black people are attempted to be emulated not discarded as unreachable anomalies.
The problem with the conservative viewpoint is that they just hand-wave away intricate and nuanced discussions of the problem that black Americans have.
Everyone knows that they have responsibility for their own actions. A random black kid that shoots up a convenience store and robs them gets thrown in jail. He deserves to be there. He broke the law.
The problem that liberals focus on and conservatives refuse to acknowledge is that society actively works against black people and keeps them down. The legal system (police, juries, and judges) disproportionately targets and punishes black people. Black people are disproportionately affected by and are born into poverty. black people are significantly less likely to be hired at companies; even if employers are looking at resumes only, they are far more likely to throw out a resume with a black-sounding name, even if it has equal or superior credentials. Social mobility in the U.S. is more difficult than in Canada, England, Germany, France, the Low Countries, and all Scandinavian countries, which disproportionately affects black people.
Our country is one of the most racist in the world, even if overtly racist actions aren't as common, due to the fact that racism is institutionalized and heavily entrenched in all parts of society. A discussion about how "black people should take more responsibility for their own actions" is complete bullshit. They take responsibility for it all the time. Everyone acknowledges that a black person committing a crime deserves punishment. Everyone knows that you don't just magically hand out money to the black community. The real discussion is what leads black people to commit crimes or end up in poverty at such disproportionate levels and how we can fix that.
The discussion isn't about how we even the outcomes between the black community and other communities. The discussion is about how we level the playing field of society for the black community when compared to other communities so that they can then take responsibility for themselves like you want to. Because right now, the playing field is not level, and black people can't just "take responsibility for themselves" because the system doesn't let them; it oppresses them.
Equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Black people currently do not have equal opportunity. That's what we are trying to fix.
So does "black culture" or the like bear any responsibility? (that's a topic many conservative African-Americans have talked about.) How is it the fault of "the system" that so many African-Americans are born out of wedlock or have their fathers leave them and their mother? Despite it being the year 2014, somehow these numbers are higher than they've ever been- true for all groups, but espeically AA (and Hispanics).
To be clear, there are obviously multiple factors at work, but it seems that on the flip side of your post, liberals place undue emphasis on the system despite the fact that all their tinkering makes minimal progress (in terms of economic and education outcomes).
Good 'argument'. "Well I know there might be a systemic problem with the institution and black people, but have you considered that maybe *insert random statistic or allegation with no explanation or context* indicates that they're just a bunch of lazy ole niggers?"
This 'argument' has popped up on every page, with conservatives suddenly coming out of the woodwork to defend the government they so often decry by giving a harumph and saying that there's a problem with black people. God forbid we fix problems with the government that don't have anything to do with white people, because that would just be a waste of conservative tax dollars.
I started to write a reply but then realized if I was basically being accused of being a racist ("there is a problem with black people" or "but have you considered that maybe *insert random statistic or allegation with no explanation or context* indicates that they're just a bunch of lazy ole niggers?") and having such offensive words put into my mouth, it's not worth it.
My response to Stratos_speAr was similar to his post- he made some arguments based on well known statistics, and even some claims that I've never seen any statistical backing for. I didn't see you criticizing any of that. Take your trash accusations and strawmen elsewhere.
You can phrase it however you want, but having grown up in Greensboro there is absolutely zero doubt as to where this attitude originates. The fact that conservatives down here have stopped using 'offensive language' in public does not mean the attitude has changed one iota. The idea that black people are intrinsically inferior has thrived in the conservative base ever since the dixiecrats joined.
I live and always have lived in Sunny Coastal SoCal (and the majority of my family is based in the West), so I haven't met all these racist people you speak of.
Again, I started to write a reply, but realized you were still implying I'm a racist, as appears to be liberal MO here in US Politics. No thanks and good day.
Talking about "black culture" is a red herring. The government has been waging war on families since at least the 1980s, despite whatever "liberal tinkering" that Fox news would have you believe is the cause of fractured family units. If you really want to delve into the subject, you should wonder why the nuclear family should be the Platonic ideal, rather than a broad-based social structure that includes extended relatives and friends. Capitalism alienates people from each other, and the mindless consumerism drilled into every American erodes "family values" far more than the local Planned Parenthood.
You can't solve a societal problem by encouraging individuals in an impoverished, disenfranchised community to focus on "getting an education." It is impossible for all, most, or even a significant number of them to "get scholarships" to colleges that will lead them to a better life. It's mind-blowing how "work hard in school and hope to get a scholarship" is presented as serious advice. For the scheme to work there is a requirement for a large multiple of those who make it out to be failures who don't make it out.
On August 21 2014 10:37 IgnE wrote: Talking about "black culture" is a red herring. The government has been waging war on families since at least the 1980s, despite whatever "liberal tinkering" that Fox news would have you believe is the cause of fractured family units. If you really want to delve into the subject, you should wonder why the nuclear family should be the Platonic ideal, rather than a broad-based social structure that includes extended relatives and friends. Capitalism alienates people from each other, and the mindless consumerism drilled into every American erodes "family values" far more than the local Planned Parenthood.
You can't solve a societal problem by encouraging individuals in an impoverished, disenfranchised community to focus on "getting an education." It is impossible for all, most, or even a significant number of them to "get scholarships" to colleges that will lead them to a better life. It's mind-blowing how "work hard in school and hope to get a scholarship" is presented as serious advice. For the scheme to work there is a requirement for a large multiple of those who make it out to be failures who don't make it out.
I don't like the term "xx culture" either, but it's the way discussions go nowadays.
I was going do delve into it with Stratos_speAr (things like voucher programs for one) but Jormundr squashed any desire I had to spend my bored time doing so. In a way that's how the whole "accuse this person of racism" shtick is supposed to work. Oh well. And btw, I don't watch or read Fox News.
On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote: I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not.
I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back.
It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making.
And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents.
The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions.
"I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life.
Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record.
So you are saying that you cut the shit and took control of your life and it is working out? Sounds like working as intended to me.
I'm not sure why coloured folk shouldn't be insulted that you think they couldn't do that as well because you seem to think they are lesser people than the "white male from a middle class family". That attitude just insults them and enables unaccountable, undesirable behavior because self hating apologists convince them there is no way out of the situation they were born into.
Then again I know no poor black people so I'm hardly an authority on the matter. I'm more comparing the US black situation to my familiarity with Canada's First Nations problems.
His point is that for him your imaginary system worked not solely because of his actions but because he was in an environment designed to work for people like him, he had a support group around him with resources to help him, he had no pressing financial or healthcare concerns, he was not punished for the mistakes he made. The point is that if you take away that, if you have the same mentality but have nobody waiting to support you for a few months while you work shit out, if you get a record for something you wouldn't have in a richer area (the coke vs crack sentencing issue) and so forth then that track that fixes everything disappears.
There is a track. It was built by middle class white guys to make sure middle class white guys have an easy time. You keep going "well I don't know why poor black guys are having so much trouble, this track seems pretty awesome to me".
I tried like ten times typing a response to this but kept ending up derailing it with a Canada/First Nations or Canada/Black viewpoint. I admit defeat until next time a situation triggers a discussion of America vs. Blacks. I still feel there is too much blame, not enough accountability and no solutions to the problem with black people.
I hope for a future where the black individual will make choices for personal growth and not destructive choices, where successful black people are attempted to be emulated not discarded as unreachable anomalies.
The problem with the conservative viewpoint is that they just hand-wave away intricate and nuanced discussions of the problem that black Americans have.
Everyone knows that they have responsibility for their own actions. A random black kid that shoots up a convenience store and robs them gets thrown in jail. He deserves to be there. He broke the law.
The problem that liberals focus on and conservatives refuse to acknowledge is that society actively works against black people and keeps them down. The legal system (police, juries, and judges) disproportionately targets and punishes black people. Black people are disproportionately affected by and are born into poverty. black people are significantly less likely to be hired at companies; even if employers are looking at resumes only, they are far more likely to throw out a resume with a black-sounding name, even if it has equal or superior credentials. Social mobility in the U.S. is more difficult than in Canada, England, Germany, France, the Low Countries, and all Scandinavian countries, which disproportionately affects black people.
Our country is one of the most racist in the world, even if overtly racist actions aren't as common, due to the fact that racism is institutionalized and heavily entrenched in all parts of society. A discussion about how "black people should take more responsibility for their own actions" is complete bullshit. They take responsibility for it all the time. Everyone acknowledges that a black person committing a crime deserves punishment. Everyone knows that you don't just magically hand out money to the black community. The real discussion is what leads black people to commit crimes or end up in poverty at such disproportionate levels and how we can fix that.
The discussion isn't about how we even the outcomes between the black community and other communities. The discussion is about how we level the playing field of society for the black community when compared to other communities so that they can then take responsibility for themselves like you want to. Because right now, the playing field is not level, and black people can't just "take responsibility for themselves" because the system doesn't let them; it oppresses them.
Equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Black people currently do not have equal opportunity. That's what we are trying to fix.
So does "black culture" or the like bear any responsibility? (that's a topic many conservative African-Americans have talked about.) How is it the fault of "the system" that so many African-Americans are born out of wedlock or have their fathers leave them and their mother? Despite it being the year 2014, somehow these numbers are higher than they've ever been- true for all groups, but espeically AA (and Hispanics).
To be clear, there are obviously multiple factors at work, but it seems that on the flip side of your post, liberals place undue emphasis on the system despite the fact that all their tinkering makes minimal progress (in terms of economic and education outcomes).
Another edit: I know this was something that xDaunt was mentioning, but the issue is so complicated that it seems odd and quite hasty to chalk it up the "system" especially when you consider how other minorities (immigrants and natives) fare.
Their "culture" is largely a product of the system.
And when you can actually say that other minorities had as bad of a history in the U.S. as black people have (which you can't), then you can use that comparison. Until then, it's a poor one.
And what tinkering have liberals done to this system? A pathetic amount has been done to try to address institutional racism in this country.
On August 21 2014 10:37 IgnE wrote: Talking about "black culture" is a red herring. The government has been waging war on families since at least the 1980s, despite whatever "liberal tinkering" that Fox news would have you believe is the cause of fractured family units. If you really want to delve into the subject, you should wonder why the nuclear family should be the Platonic ideal, rather than a broad-based social structure that includes extended relatives and friends. Capitalism alienates people from each other, and the mindless consumerism drilled into every American erodes "family values" far more than the local Planned Parenthood.
You can't solve a societal problem by encouraging individuals in an impoverished, disenfranchised community to focus on "getting an education." It is impossible for all, most, or even a significant number of them to "get scholarships" to colleges that will lead them to a better life. It's mind-blowing how "work hard in school and hope to get a scholarship" is presented as serious advice. For the scheme to work there is a requirement for a large multiple of those who make it out to be failures who don't make it out.
It certainly helps, unless your premise is that public schools are a waste.
Edit: when did education become a crazy 'conservative' idea??
On August 21 2014 10:48 Stratos_speAr wrote: Their "culture" is largely a product of the system.
And when you can actually say that other minorities had as bad of a history in the U.S. as black people have (which you can't), then you can use that comparison. Until then, it's a poor one.
And what tinkering have liberals done to this system? A pathetic amount has been done to try to address institutional racism in this country.
I note that native American history in the US is as bad as blacks had it.
EPT
