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On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents.
The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions.
"I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life.
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On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life.
Your logic is just in conflict with reality... No matter how hard people work and how many correct choices they make there are limited resources so not everyone can be wealthy period. Your disregard for the birth lottery has already been thoroughly noted too.
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On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life.
Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record.
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On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record.
You're right but choice plays a role too. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice), that community sets itself up for a lot of problems down the road.
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On August 21 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record. You're right but choice plays a role too. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice), that community sets itself up for a lot of problems down the road.
Yes because a 50% failure rate cant have anything to do with the school or the environment right? Purely their own lazy asses. Thank god in Glorious 'Merica people like that can die in the gutter where they belong.
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On August 21 2014 03:53 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record. You're right but choice plays a role too. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice), that community sets itself up for a lot of problems down the road. Yes because a 50% failure rate cant have anything to do with the school or the environment right? Purely their own lazy asses. Thank god in Glorious 'Merica people like that can die in the gutter where they belong.
People aren't left to die in the gutter in 'Merica. Try relying more on facts and less on skin deep stereotypes.
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On August 21 2014 04:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 03:53 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record. You're right but choice plays a role too. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice), that community sets itself up for a lot of problems down the road. Yes because a 50% failure rate cant have anything to do with the school or the environment right? Purely their own lazy asses. Thank god in Glorious 'Merica people like that can die in the gutter where they belong. People aren't left to die in the gutter in 'Merica. Try relying more on facts and less on skin deep stereotypes.
Thank you for utterly racing past the point.
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On August 21 2014 04:04 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 04:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:53 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record. You're right but choice plays a role too. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice), that community sets itself up for a lot of problems down the road. Yes because a 50% failure rate cant have anything to do with the school or the environment right? Purely their own lazy asses. Thank god in Glorious 'Merica people like that can die in the gutter where they belong. People aren't left to die in the gutter in 'Merica. Try relying more on facts and less on skin deep stereotypes. Thank you for utterly racing past the point.
FFS, read my post. I agreed with aksfjh that life circumstances play a role and added that choices also matter and gave an example. Thank you for jumping to hating on 'Merica because of your own stupidity.
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On August 21 2014 04:15 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 04:04 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 04:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:53 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record. You're right but choice plays a role too. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice), that community sets itself up for a lot of problems down the road. Yes because a 50% failure rate cant have anything to do with the school or the environment right? Purely their own lazy asses. Thank god in Glorious 'Merica people like that can die in the gutter where they belong. People aren't left to die in the gutter in 'Merica. Try relying more on facts and less on skin deep stereotypes. Thank you for utterly racing past the point. FFS, read my post. I agreed with aksfjh that life circumstances play a role and added that choices also matter and gave an example. Thank you for jumping to hating on 'Merica because of your own stupidity.
When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice)
Your own words say its their own fault 50% doesn't graduate. That sure doesn't sound like agreeing that the environment has a massive impact on that number.
User was warned for this post
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You conveniently cut out "You're right" at the beginning of the post lol. I'm assuming Jonny doesn't think choice is the only factor and you don't believe we all have pre-determined fates we can't deviate from so we don't need to be so extreme.
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On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record.
So you are saying that you cut the shit and took control of your life and it is working out? Sounds like working as intended to me.
I'm not sure why coloured folk shouldn't be insulted that you think they couldn't do that as well because you seem to think they are lesser people than the "white male from a middle class family". That attitude just insults them and enables unaccountable, undesirable behavior because self hating apologists convince them there is no way out of the situation they were born into.
Then again I know no poor black people so I'm hardly an authority on the matter. I'm more comparing the US black situation to my familiarity with Canada's First Nations problems.
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On August 21 2014 04:19 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 04:15 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 04:04 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 04:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:53 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record. You're right but choice plays a role too. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice), that community sets itself up for a lot of problems down the road. Yes because a 50% failure rate cant have anything to do with the school or the environment right? Purely their own lazy asses. Thank god in Glorious 'Merica people like that can die in the gutter where they belong. People aren't left to die in the gutter in 'Merica. Try relying more on facts and less on skin deep stereotypes. Thank you for utterly racing past the point. FFS, read my post. I agreed with aksfjh that life circumstances play a role and added that choices also matter and gave an example. Thank you for jumping to hating on 'Merica because of your own stupidity. Your own words say its their own fault 50% doesn't graduate. That sure doesn't sound like agreeing that the environment has a massive impact on that number.
You do make a choice to drop out or not study. Sure, environment can play a role (3rd time I'm saying that) but choices are a huge factor as well. Also, choices play a large role in constructing the environment! When dicks make the choice to bully kids for reading, you end up with a shitty environment for reading.
Environment plays a role, but people aren't just cogs in the machine, wholly incapable of independent thought and action.
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On August 21 2014 04:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 04:19 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 04:15 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 04:04 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 04:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:53 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back.
It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making.
And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record. You're right but choice plays a role too. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice), that community sets itself up for a lot of problems down the road. Yes because a 50% failure rate cant have anything to do with the school or the environment right? Purely their own lazy asses. Thank god in Glorious 'Merica people like that can die in the gutter where they belong. People aren't left to die in the gutter in 'Merica. Try relying more on facts and less on skin deep stereotypes. Thank you for utterly racing past the point. FFS, read my post. I agreed with aksfjh that life circumstances play a role and added that choices also matter and gave an example. Thank you for jumping to hating on 'Merica because of your own stupidity. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice)
Your own words say its their own fault 50% doesn't graduate. That sure doesn't sound like agreeing that the environment has a massive impact on that number. You do make a choice to drop out or not study. Sure, environment can play a role (3rd time I'm saying that) but choices are a huge factor as well. Also, choices play a large role in constructing the environment! When dicks make the choice to bully kids for reading, you end up with a shitty environment for reading. Environment plays a role, but people aren't just cogs in the machine, wholly incapable of independent thought and action.
If a neighborhood is so bad that 50% never graduates I would say it is so fucked that environment is playing a bigger role then individual choice and that without outside intervention that situation will not change.
That said i got to hung up on your wording probably so sorry for that.
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United States43991 Posts
On August 21 2014 04:38 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 21 2014 02:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 21 2014 01:55 Wolfstan wrote:
I think you are confused, you can't choose to be white or black. You can choose to be wealthy or poor, a drug addict or not. I wonder why not everyone chooses to be really rich then! The 19th century called, they want their definition of personal freedom back. It's not like a lot of them don't even have the money in the first place to get education, healthcare, or as if a lot of them don't even grew up in functional families, I guess they're all just incredibly bad at decision-making. And yes, most people are born wealthy or poor. Some individuals are self made millionaires or billionaires,great for them, but most people will end up in a similar position as their parents. The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions. "I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record. So you are saying that you cut the shit and took control of your life and it is working out? Sounds like working as intended to me. I'm not sure why coloured folk shouldn't be insulted that you think they couldn't do that as well because you seem to think they are lesser people than the "white male from a middle class family". That attitude just insults them and enables unaccountable, undesirable behavior because self hating apologists convince them there is no way out of the situation they were born into. Then again I know no poor black people so I'm hardly an authority on the matter. I'm more comparing the US black situation to my familiarity with Canada's First Nations problems.
His point is that for him your imaginary system worked not solely because of his actions but because he was in an environment designed to work for people like him, he had a support group around him with resources to help him, he had no pressing financial or healthcare concerns, he was not punished for the mistakes he made. The point is that if you take away that, if you have the same mentality but have nobody waiting to support you for a few months while you work shit out, if you get a record for something you wouldn't have in a richer area (the coke vs crack sentencing issue) and so forth then that track that fixes everything disappears.
There is a track. It was built by middle class white guys to make sure middle class white guys have an easy time. You keep going "well I don't know why poor black guys are having so much trouble, this track seems pretty awesome to me".
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On August 21 2014 04:47 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 04:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 04:19 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 04:15 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 04:04 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 04:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:53 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2014 02:50 Wolfstan wrote:
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The choice of being wealthy or healthy is not as simple as choosing between a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder. That is why so many people fail at both goals, you have to wake up every day and reaffirm that choice, it gets harder when there are conflicting values and compulsions.
"I chose to be wealthy and in shape, but it didn't magically appear. I blame the 1% and my lineage." The defeatist, bleeding heart counter arguments like that are incredibly destructive to at-risk individuals who allow statements like that to reinforce the belief they have no control over their life. Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record. You're right but choice plays a role too. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice), that community sets itself up for a lot of problems down the road. Yes because a 50% failure rate cant have anything to do with the school or the environment right? Purely their own lazy asses. Thank god in Glorious 'Merica people like that can die in the gutter where they belong. People aren't left to die in the gutter in 'Merica. Try relying more on facts and less on skin deep stereotypes. Thank you for utterly racing past the point. FFS, read my post. I agreed with aksfjh that life circumstances play a role and added that choices also matter and gave an example. Thank you for jumping to hating on 'Merica because of your own stupidity. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice)
Your own words say its their own fault 50% doesn't graduate. That sure doesn't sound like agreeing that the environment has a massive impact on that number. You do make a choice to drop out or not study. Sure, environment can play a role (3rd time I'm saying that) but choices are a huge factor as well. Also, choices play a large role in constructing the environment! When dicks make the choice to bully kids for reading, you end up with a shitty environment for reading. Environment plays a role, but people aren't just cogs in the machine, wholly incapable of independent thought and action. If a neighborhood is so bad that 50% never graduates I would say it is so fucked that environment is playing a bigger role then individual choice and that without outside intervention that situation will not change. That said i got to hung up on your wording probably so sorry for that.
Exactly. If one student fails, you have a bad student. If a majority of the students fail, you have a bad teacher/school.
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On August 21 2014 05:01 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 04:47 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 04:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 04:19 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 04:15 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 04:04 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 04:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:53 Gorsameth wrote:On August 21 2014 03:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 21 2014 03:21 aksfjh wrote:
[quote]
Bull fucking baloney horse shit. Depending on where you were born on the social totem pole, you either have to "reaffirm" that daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, or never. I have gone months completely giving up on myself and being successful (and healthy), but I'm not sitting in jail nor am I poor. Why is that? Because I'm a white male from a middle class family. I had plenty of access to activities because I could afford it and lived in higher class areas. When I was short on money, my parents were able to lend a hand. In the case that I did something illegal, nobody was scrutinizing me closely to punish me for my mistakes. When I finally did get back on track, the track was waiting for me because none of my screwing around got on record. You're right but choice plays a role too. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice), that community sets itself up for a lot of problems down the road. Yes because a 50% failure rate cant have anything to do with the school or the environment right? Purely their own lazy asses. Thank god in Glorious 'Merica people like that can die in the gutter where they belong. People aren't left to die in the gutter in 'Merica. Try relying more on facts and less on skin deep stereotypes. Thank you for utterly racing past the point. FFS, read my post. I agreed with aksfjh that life circumstances play a role and added that choices also matter and gave an example. Thank you for jumping to hating on 'Merica because of your own stupidity. When 50% of a community doesn't graduate high school (imo, a choice)
Your own words say its their own fault 50% doesn't graduate. That sure doesn't sound like agreeing that the environment has a massive impact on that number. You do make a choice to drop out or not study. Sure, environment can play a role (3rd time I'm saying that) but choices are a huge factor as well. Also, choices play a large role in constructing the environment! When dicks make the choice to bully kids for reading, you end up with a shitty environment for reading. Environment plays a role, but people aren't just cogs in the machine, wholly incapable of independent thought and action. If a neighborhood is so bad that 50% never graduates I would say it is so fucked that environment is playing a bigger role then individual choice and that without outside intervention that situation will not change. That said i got to hung up on your wording probably so sorry for that. Exactly. If one student fails, you have a bad student. If a majority of the students fail, you have a bad teacher/school.
Or bad community, where community isn't just parents and kids, but also jobs and public services.
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What if the school system is so utterly, systemically fucked that dropping out is a rational choice because our educational system is a ponzi scheme and therefore a waste of time?
That is, when someone says "Well, if you had not dropped out of school, things would have gone great" they are wrong. When the underclass child says "I dropped out of school because it was pointless anyway, preferring to face the reality of my systematic disenfranchisement than continue to embrace the cynical illusion that continuing through the school system will someone open up my horizon of possibilities" he is much closer to the truth. The dropping out of school thus merely confirms (/symbolically authorizes) what was already the case.
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On August 21 2014 05:23 bookwyrm wrote:
What if the school system is so utterly, systemically fucked that dropping out is a rational choice because our educational system is a ponzi scheme and therefore a waste of time?
That is, when someone says "Well, if you had not dropped out of school, things would have gone great" they are wrong. When the underclass child says "I dropped out of school because it was pointless anyway, preferring to face the reality of my systematic disenfranchisement than continue to embrace the cynical illusion that continuing through the school system will someone open up my horizon of possibilities" he is much closer to the truth. The dropping out of school thus merely confirms (/symbolically authorizes) what was already the case.
Yeah, high-school drop outs in rough neighborhoods have all the opportunities in the world. The easiest way for these kids to get out is to do well enough, graduate high school, and get a scholarship to a decent school on the minority ticket. It's why these affirmative action programs, as much as I don't like them, exist for universities.
I agree that public school in the United States is largely a broken institution, but you can't discount the benefit that having a high school and college diploma has for getting a job and career, respectively. I'm not sure why you're so jaded on the subject, but I don't think "all of them should drop out" is the solution.
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On August 21 2014 05:23 bookwyrm wrote:
What if the school system is so utterly, systemically fucked that dropping out is a rational choice because our educational system is a ponzi scheme and therefore a waste of time?
That is, when someone says "Well, if you had not dropped out of school, things would have gone great" they are wrong. When the underclass child says "I dropped out of school because it was pointless anyway, preferring to face the reality of my systematic disenfranchisement than continue to embrace the cynical illusion that continuing through the school system will someone open up my horizon of possibilities" he is much closer to the truth. The dropping out of school thus merely confirms (/symbolically authorizes) what was already the case.
The idea that education is a scam is part of the problem. Staying in school and studying hard is a really, really important thing to do.
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We just disagree about the reality of the narrative that you are proposing. I think it is a fantasy (and I'm suggesting that so do the dropouts, and they are right about it).
My own experience as a graduate student at a state university is that the only purpose of the institution is a student-debt credential inflation factory. None of the students are learning anything because the expectations are very low and they are completely unprepared for college level work (what they are doing is just remedial high school). The only point is to push them through the system so they can end up with a bunch of debt and a rapidly-inflating credential. If they get indoctrinated with some version of the Official State Orthodoxy of Pomo Mush along the way, that's icing on the cake.
Diplomas are like fiat money. You can print as many of them as you like but that doesn't mean they're going to end up being worth anything. The idea that you can fix an economy or social inequality by increasing access to higher education is Educational Keynesianism and just as stupid as the economic kind.
On August 21 2014 05:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 05:23 bookwyrm wrote:
What if the school system is so utterly, systemically fucked that dropping out is a rational choice because our educational system is a ponzi scheme and therefore a waste of time?
That is, when someone says "Well, if you had not dropped out of school, things would have gone great" they are wrong. When the underclass child says "I dropped out of school because it was pointless anyway, preferring to face the reality of my systematic disenfranchisement than continue to embrace the cynical illusion that continuing through the school system will someone open up my horizon of possibilities" he is much closer to the truth. The dropping out of school thus merely confirms (/symbolically authorizes) what was already the case. The idea that education is a scam is part of the problem. Staying in school and studying hard is a really, really important thing to do.
yes, this is the narrative that I don't believe in. Coming from someone who has done very little with his life besides staying in school and studying hard. And knowing a lot of people who came from the same privileged background as I, who are complete idiots but daddy bought them a diploma, who are perfectly "successful." They certainly didn't "study hard", they were just born to the manor. That's the reality of American society, your mythology be damned. The dropouts know it.
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EPT
