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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18487 Posts
March 12 2018 14:28 GMT
#200901
On March 12 2018 23:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2018 22:59 Mercy13 wrote:
Certain extreme cases which have happened to make the news aside, this study makes some interesting conclusions regarding how views on free speech in America have changed over time:

For most of its surveys between 1972 and 2016, the General Social Survey asked a U.S. sample to consider the following types of potential public speakers. (They asked about a few others but the following are the ones they asked most consistently.)

“…a person who believes that Blacks are genetically inferior.” (Henceforth “racist.”)
“Somebody who is against all churches and religion…” (Henceforth “antitheist.”)
“…a man who admits he is a Communist.” (Henceforth “communist.”)
“…a person who advocates doing away with elections and letting the military run the country.” (Henceforth “militarist.”)
“…a man who admits that he is a homosexual?” (Henceforth, “homosexual.”)
For each type of person, they also asked, “If such a person wanted to make a speech in your community, should he be allowed to speak, or not?”
. . .

[image loading]

[image loading]

Here’s the first interesting insight from Figure 2. As late as the 1970s & 1980s, the Left & the Right were, compared to today, relatively ambivalent about letting people, especially their ideological enemies, speak freely. Many conservatives did not wish to give freedom of speech to groups they were inclined to dislike, such as homosexuals and atheists. Liberals were less willing to give speech rights to militarists than they are today. But since then, the left and the right have become more tolerant to the free speech of many groups. Except racists. What’s unique about today’s fashion of “no platforming” racists (really, anyone deemed racist) is not that it’s new; what’s unique is that this specific type of speaker was exempt from the generally rising tide of speech toleration over the past few decades. Today’s vaguely leftist fashion of “no platforming” anyone deemed racist does not reflect a sudden, massive shift of opinion (although there’s some shift); it seems more to reflect a quite traditional tendency of aversion to despised speakers, which only now appears peculiar because most other despisable speaker types have become tolerated by most other ideological factions. The general, national puzzle, therefore, is not “Why do leftists suddenly seem so opposed to racist speakers, or speakers deemed racist?” This is a puzzle, which we’ll address next, but it’s not the over-arching puzzle. The most general puzzle is “Why have racist speakers, or speakers deemed racist, been exempt from the rising tide of speech toleration, for liberals and conservatives?” As Figure 1 shows, the relatively stable attitudes toward racist speakers are visible as nationwide averages, ignoring ideology. I won’t try to provide an answer for this question here, as clarifying the question seems worthwhile enough for the moment.

The second important fact shown in Figure 2 is that generally, on average, support for free speech increases as you move from conservatism to liberalism. To any political scientist, this should not be surprising; liberals are known to be higher in openness than conservatives, and conservatives have always been more concerned with social control (law and order). This is only interesting as a corrective for claims that have become very popular in the alt-ideological indie media world. This is understandably due to the presence of high-profile left-wing ideologues opposed to free speech—and the presence of high-profile free speech defenders who happen to lean center-right/libertarian. I think I have heard on separate occasions people such as Bret Weinstein, Dave Rubin, Joe Rogan and others, all talk about how puzzling it is that liberalism/leftism used to be the camp of free speech but now they’re the camp of speech suppression. This is not really true. I think what they should say, and maybe what they mean to say, is that “a puzzling minority of vaguely leftist activists, who happen to have gained media attention, wish to suppress free speech.”
...
The third most fascinating insight from Figure 2 is where, exactly, there has been some opinion shift away from free speech in recent years. If there’s one segment of the ideological spectrum that has become the most censorious toward racists, it is not the Extreme Liberal but rather the Liberal and Slightly Liberal. In other words, it’s likely not Liberalism itself doing the work here, if Extreme Liberals are the most supportive of free speech for racists. As mentioned above, those who identify as “extremely liberal” have always been, on average, the most supportive of free speech (even for racist speakers). Historical phenomena such as the left-wing Berkely Free Speech movement of the 1960s has not been reversed by contemporary SJWs; extreme liberals carry on that tendency, the inference here is simply that SJWs are actually not extreme liberals.


Source


At a glance, it seems extreme liberals and conservatives have the most similar patterns.

Somethingsomethinghorseshoes.

I think you missed the numbers on the y-axis
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-12 14:33:09
March 12 2018 14:32 GMT
#200902
On March 12 2018 23:28 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2018 23:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
On March 12 2018 22:59 Mercy13 wrote:
Certain extreme cases which have happened to make the news aside, this study makes some interesting conclusions regarding how views on free speech in America have changed over time:

For most of its surveys between 1972 and 2016, the General Social Survey asked a U.S. sample to consider the following types of potential public speakers. (They asked about a few others but the following are the ones they asked most consistently.)

“…a person who believes that Blacks are genetically inferior.” (Henceforth “racist.”)
“Somebody who is against all churches and religion…” (Henceforth “antitheist.”)
“…a man who admits he is a Communist.” (Henceforth “communist.”)
“…a person who advocates doing away with elections and letting the military run the country.” (Henceforth “militarist.”)
“…a man who admits that he is a homosexual?” (Henceforth, “homosexual.”)
For each type of person, they also asked, “If such a person wanted to make a speech in your community, should he be allowed to speak, or not?”
. . .

[image loading]

[image loading]

Here’s the first interesting insight from Figure 2. As late as the 1970s & 1980s, the Left & the Right were, compared to today, relatively ambivalent about letting people, especially their ideological enemies, speak freely. Many conservatives did not wish to give freedom of speech to groups they were inclined to dislike, such as homosexuals and atheists. Liberals were less willing to give speech rights to militarists than they are today. But since then, the left and the right have become more tolerant to the free speech of many groups. Except racists. What’s unique about today’s fashion of “no platforming” racists (really, anyone deemed racist) is not that it’s new; what’s unique is that this specific type of speaker was exempt from the generally rising tide of speech toleration over the past few decades. Today’s vaguely leftist fashion of “no platforming” anyone deemed racist does not reflect a sudden, massive shift of opinion (although there’s some shift); it seems more to reflect a quite traditional tendency of aversion to despised speakers, which only now appears peculiar because most other despisable speaker types have become tolerated by most other ideological factions. The general, national puzzle, therefore, is not “Why do leftists suddenly seem so opposed to racist speakers, or speakers deemed racist?” This is a puzzle, which we’ll address next, but it’s not the over-arching puzzle. The most general puzzle is “Why have racist speakers, or speakers deemed racist, been exempt from the rising tide of speech toleration, for liberals and conservatives?” As Figure 1 shows, the relatively stable attitudes toward racist speakers are visible as nationwide averages, ignoring ideology. I won’t try to provide an answer for this question here, as clarifying the question seems worthwhile enough for the moment.

The second important fact shown in Figure 2 is that generally, on average, support for free speech increases as you move from conservatism to liberalism. To any political scientist, this should not be surprising; liberals are known to be higher in openness than conservatives, and conservatives have always been more concerned with social control (law and order). This is only interesting as a corrective for claims that have become very popular in the alt-ideological indie media world. This is understandably due to the presence of high-profile left-wing ideologues opposed to free speech—and the presence of high-profile free speech defenders who happen to lean center-right/libertarian. I think I have heard on separate occasions people such as Bret Weinstein, Dave Rubin, Joe Rogan and others, all talk about how puzzling it is that liberalism/leftism used to be the camp of free speech but now they’re the camp of speech suppression. This is not really true. I think what they should say, and maybe what they mean to say, is that “a puzzling minority of vaguely leftist activists, who happen to have gained media attention, wish to suppress free speech.”
...
The third most fascinating insight from Figure 2 is where, exactly, there has been some opinion shift away from free speech in recent years. If there’s one segment of the ideological spectrum that has become the most censorious toward racists, it is not the Extreme Liberal but rather the Liberal and Slightly Liberal. In other words, it’s likely not Liberalism itself doing the work here, if Extreme Liberals are the most supportive of free speech for racists. As mentioned above, those who identify as “extremely liberal” have always been, on average, the most supportive of free speech (even for racist speakers). Historical phenomena such as the left-wing Berkely Free Speech movement of the 1960s has not been reversed by contemporary SJWs; extreme liberals carry on that tendency, the inference here is simply that SJWs are actually not extreme liberals.


Source


At a glance, it seems extreme liberals and conservatives have the most similar patterns.

Somethingsomethinghorseshoes.

I think you missed the numbers on the y-axis


No, I noticed that. I meant patterns in the sense of ebbs and flows in the various trendlines. If you shift one up/down, the lines are remarkably similar. Though the two also apparently have the most variation.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46629 Posts
March 12 2018 15:32 GMT
#200903
I'm pleasantly surprised that antitheists are received relatively well in terms of freedom of speech in those polls/ graphs, considering how religious of a country we are.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-12 17:14:35
March 12 2018 17:02 GMT
#200904


On March 12 2018 23:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2018 22:59 Mercy13 wrote:
Certain extreme cases which have happened to make the news aside, this study makes some interesting conclusions regarding how views on free speech in America have changed over time:

For most of its surveys between 1972 and 2016, the General Social Survey asked a U.S. sample to consider the following types of potential public speakers. (They asked about a few others but the following are the ones they asked most consistently.)

“…a person who believes that Blacks are genetically inferior.” (Henceforth “racist.”)
“Somebody who is against all churches and religion…” (Henceforth “antitheist.”)
“…a man who admits he is a Communist.” (Henceforth “communist.”)
“…a person who advocates doing away with elections and letting the military run the country.” (Henceforth “militarist.”)
“…a man who admits that he is a homosexual?” (Henceforth, “homosexual.”)
For each type of person, they also asked, “If such a person wanted to make a speech in your community, should he be allowed to speak, or not?”
. . .

[image loading]

[image loading]

Here’s the first interesting insight from Figure 2. As late as the 1970s & 1980s, the Left & the Right were, compared to today, relatively ambivalent about letting people, especially their ideological enemies, speak freely. Many conservatives did not wish to give freedom of speech to groups they were inclined to dislike, such as homosexuals and atheists. Liberals were less willing to give speech rights to militarists than they are today. But since then, the left and the right have become more tolerant to the free speech of many groups. Except racists. What’s unique about today’s fashion of “no platforming” racists (really, anyone deemed racist) is not that it’s new; what’s unique is that this specific type of speaker was exempt from the generally rising tide of speech toleration over the past few decades. Today’s vaguely leftist fashion of “no platforming” anyone deemed racist does not reflect a sudden, massive shift of opinion (although there’s some shift); it seems more to reflect a quite traditional tendency of aversion to despised speakers, which only now appears peculiar because most other despisable speaker types have become tolerated by most other ideological factions. The general, national puzzle, therefore, is not “Why do leftists suddenly seem so opposed to racist speakers, or speakers deemed racist?” This is a puzzle, which we’ll address next, but it’s not the over-arching puzzle. The most general puzzle is “Why have racist speakers, or speakers deemed racist, been exempt from the rising tide of speech toleration, for liberals and conservatives?” As Figure 1 shows, the relatively stable attitudes toward racist speakers are visible as nationwide averages, ignoring ideology. I won’t try to provide an answer for this question here, as clarifying the question seems worthwhile enough for the moment.

The second important fact shown in Figure 2 is that generally, on average, support for free speech increases as you move from conservatism to liberalism. To any political scientist, this should not be surprising; liberals are known to be higher in openness than conservatives, and conservatives have always been more concerned with social control (law and order). This is only interesting as a corrective for claims that have become very popular in the alt-ideological indie media world. This is understandably due to the presence of high-profile left-wing ideologues opposed to free speech—and the presence of high-profile free speech defenders who happen to lean center-right/libertarian. I think I have heard on separate occasions people such as Bret Weinstein, Dave Rubin, Joe Rogan and others, all talk about how puzzling it is that liberalism/leftism used to be the camp of free speech but now they’re the camp of speech suppression. This is not really true. I think what they should say, and maybe what they mean to say, is that “a puzzling minority of vaguely leftist activists, who happen to have gained media attention, wish to suppress free speech.”
...
The third most fascinating insight from Figure 2 is where, exactly, there has been some opinion shift away from free speech in recent years. If there’s one segment of the ideological spectrum that has become the most censorious toward racists, it is not the Extreme Liberal but rather the Liberal and Slightly Liberal. In other words, it’s likely not Liberalism itself doing the work here, if Extreme Liberals are the most supportive of free speech for racists. As mentioned above, those who identify as “extremely liberal” have always been, on average, the most supportive of free speech (even for racist speakers). Historical phenomena such as the left-wing Berkely Free Speech movement of the 1960s has not been reversed by contemporary SJWs; extreme liberals carry on that tendency, the inference here is simply that SJWs are actually not extreme liberals.


Source


At a glance, it seems extreme liberals and conservatives have the most similar patterns.

Somethingsomethinghorseshoes.

Also the intolerant left/ SJW is apparently made up of liberal/ slightly liberals.


Actually if you zoom in to view image:

The liberal tolerance to racist speakers are the same as that of slightly conservative and more than that of conservative.
The slightly liberal tolerance to rascist speakers are the same as that of moderates and less than slightly conservative and conservative.

So their tolerance of rascists are +/- 0.02 of almost everyone else the same as everyone else bar the extremely liberal who seem to relatively tolerant to all groups and bar the extremely conservative, who are relatively more tolerent of racists speakers and more relatively less tolerant to everyone else.


https://i.imgur.com/5QsxYUx.png

Basically, compared to moderates, on the liberal side, the extremely liberals are out of place for being more tolerant of racists speakers, whilst being more tolerant of every speaker, whilst on the conservative side, the extreme conservatives are out of place for being more tolerant of racist speakers, whilst being less tolerant of every speaker.

Some numbers from graph for tolerance to rascist speakers:

Extremely Liberal: 0.74
Liberal: 0.61
Slightly Liberal: 0.59
Moderate: 0.59
Slightly conservative: 0.61
Conservative: 0.6
Extremely Conservative: 0.65

So I don't really see how you can call "intolerant left/ SJW" (more internet memes?) as from liberals/slightly liberals, when those 2 groups have the same tolerance for rascist speakers bar the extremes from both sides.

_____

As for the remarkable tolerance to antitheist, I would put it down to lack of knowledge what the word means. It could be confused as "anti-extremst-religion". If it was athiesm, or outspoken athiesm I suspect that the tolerance would be a lot lower. Then again it could be that the country as a whole is tolerant of athiesm, it just that there are large pockets where they are not, leading to the many stories that seem to come out of the US regarding intolerance of heathens.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
March 12 2018 17:02 GMT
#200905
On March 12 2018 14:45 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:

I didn't realise trickle-down education was also a thing
Neosteel Enthusiast
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
March 12 2018 17:08 GMT
#200906
The republicans are trying to breed their own type of stupid, just like the democrats did, don't you know?
Life?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-12 17:13:11
March 12 2018 17:11 GMT
#200907
What I take away from that study is the "assault of free speech" is not reflected in the data.

On March 13 2018 02:08 ShoCkeyy wrote:
The republicans are trying to breed their own type of stupid, just like the democrats did, don't you know?

Everyone is looking for the secret, magical solution to fixing public education that doesn't involve spending more money and making the teaching field more competitive.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
March 12 2018 17:16 GMT
#200908
Funnily enough the two aren't even mutually inclusive. You can spend less money and make the teaching field more competitive, but it involves working with teachers and raising their social status, like Finland. Unfortunately, it seems that the US administration for years are in a middle of a bizarre war against teachers.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
March 12 2018 17:18 GMT
#200909
other issues is that the rich schools have plenty of money and the poorer schools have no money. so its also a lot of inequality not just more money in general
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-12 17:21:02
March 12 2018 17:20 GMT
#200910
There is this constant narrative that schools need to be empowered to fire bad teachers, because that is how you build a good work force. By firing your way to a better one.

But you hit the problem on the head. The entire process would take a ton of work across several states. Also, every state is different. My state has pretty passable publics schools, with the expectation the super rural western part of the state and the highly segregated sections of Boston. In both of those regions, school of choice gutted one school at the expense of another.

On March 13 2018 02:18 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
other issues is that the rich schools have plenty of money and the poorer schools have no money. so its also a lot of inequality not just more money in general


And school of choice makes it so the few middle class students in the poor school can go to the rich school if their parents want, which only adds to the problem.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-12 17:22:50
March 12 2018 17:21 GMT
#200911
another issue with schools is that full retirement benefits require teaching 30 years and reaching 60 so you have a lot of teachers who should retire who are just waiting to get retirement.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 12 2018 17:26 GMT
#200912
That problem could be mitigated by letting teachers take partial retirement benefits at 10 and 20 years. Let people leave the field when they want and move on, but still get some of the retirement benefits.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
March 12 2018 17:34 GMT
#200913
yeah I mean there's easy ways to fix it but it's a problem. at least where my mom and dad work
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46629 Posts
March 12 2018 17:56 GMT
#200914
On March 13 2018 02:02 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2018 14:45 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/axios/status/972996794757140486

I didn't realise trickle-down education was also a thing


Betsy DeVos thinks that removing money from schools makes education *better* for students at those schools. I'm coining this absurd idea Homeopathic Education.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Mercy13
Profile Joined January 2011
United States718 Posts
March 12 2018 18:01 GMT
#200915
On March 13 2018 02:11 Plansix wrote:
What I take away from that study is the "assault of free speech" is not reflected in the data.


That was my main take away as well, though the author of the study did include some qualifications at the end.

On the other hand my impression is that many right leaning posters believe that the suppression of free speech on college campuses is a major issue facing the US today. Does anyone know if there is data besides anecdotal evidence vindicating the belief that increasing suppression of free speech is something we should be concerned about?
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
March 12 2018 18:10 GMT
#200916
Presumably the "intolerant left" wouldn't be the intolerant left because they're more prone to want to silence those they consider racist, it would because they're more prone to consider a given person racist. If person A says "I don't think David Duke should be given a platform because he's racist" and person B says "I don't think Mitt Romney should be given a platform because he's racist," they're equally likely to say "I don't think racists should be allowed to speak," but person B is applying the idea to a much larger group of people.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Mercy13
Profile Joined January 2011
United States718 Posts
March 12 2018 18:16 GMT
#200917
Yes, Good point. And I suppose that would make it a problem for people who believe that the definition of racism is expanding willy nilly for no good reason.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
March 12 2018 19:00 GMT
#200918
Happens on both sides. See all the times James Martin was banned from somewhere in the last year
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5065 Posts
March 12 2018 19:49 GMT
#200919
Besides the usual disclaimers on that data, is it broken down by age anywhere? That would certainly shed light on the college campus aspect.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12610 Posts
March 12 2018 20:01 GMT
#200920
My main problem with this whole free speech university stuff has never been the racism tbh. I view universities as places of knowledge and I don't believe it's sane or helpful to let any random donk with an opinion speak there. It indirectly condemns racism cause no racism comes from a place of knowledge but that's not my main issue. Like, I wouldn't want Jimmy Dore speaking in a university either.
No will to live, no wish to die
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