This thread is just sad. Sitting and looking forward for release, hoping to get beta, and all I see is whine and whine..
Don't see anything wrong with most of the changes, atleast when it comes to making it more automatic for the regular stuff. I would prefer a game where smart strategic thinking and intelligence won over apm anyday. I get sad just thinking about that there wasn't a worker rally in bw. Sure it made the game harder, but it definetely didn't make it better/more fun. Isn't as fun winning if you do it because you are faster on the keyboard than your opponent. Doesn't give the same pleasure as being a greater military tactician :D
Besides, as said, why even bother crying about it, it's not like it's gonna change much for creme de la creme of players (atleast that's what I think as a top diamond random player).
I hope those changes get my friends who are pretty bad at the game a easier time and make them want to play more often than when I force them to hehe..
Naw we mostly hate the Warhound and Tempest here though. I don't care for most of the UI changes except that automate mining and show workers/base thing.
And especially that workers/base thing would actually take out relatively much skill. I'm pretty sure that I over/undersaturate bases A LOT and I wouldn't call myself a huge scrub at this game.
On September 05 2012 00:37 ETisME wrote: swarm hosts take up so much supply, kinda depressing to see, but coupled with the new nydus, zerg gameplay seems a lot more interesting. hopefully the new nydus will actually be useful
how are they changing nydus?
they added a new nydus worm that's like a cannon and pukes creeps
Please tell me this costs supply. Making Spine walls even better seems absolutely crazy to me.
They can only attack buildings.
Ugh, as far as I know, its the first time in Blizz history of rts design they've introduced such a restriction on any unit to make it balanced. Seriously, a huge corrosive worm that's part the swarm that suddenly chokes when a marine walks up to it?
On September 05 2012 04:19 L3gendary wrote: Why is everyone discussing the auto rally point and not the initial workers being sent to mining automatically?
Are people missing the part where it says: "...and order starting workers to harvest there."
Doesn't the game already do that? I mean, I rally my workers to a mineral patch to have them mine.
No? You still have to box ur workers and send them to the minerals. With this you won't. That is unless blizzard worded it incorrectly.
If so, I wouldn't mind that change IMO (if the starter workers mined automatically).
The main reason is that:
1. Screwing up (which happens occasionally) can put you behind. In most cases, it doesn't matter but when defending 6 pool or something similar, the extra minerals mined can help.
2. Lag - Occasionally the game may start a bit laggy (though it doesn't anymore). I do remember some cases where the game starts earlier for the other player, so you end up being a bit behind.
In any case, I think the change (if it's what it seems like it means) is really minor and doesn't really harm the skill cap or anything.
Just as a note - none of these changes are confirmed for release, and a couple, such as the 'simple command card' and 'can't control unit' warning probably won't go live - at least, not for multiplayer. Some of the UI options we're looking at could be used to help simplify gameplay for Arcade games, for example. It is a beta, after all, and we're taking the opportunity to experiment a bit. None of the stuff you'll see filtering out of it is a sure thing. Just wanted to throw that out there. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/zbirc/new_button_in_hots_interface_select_army_units/c63dt73
On September 05 2012 04:30 gedatsu wrote: I'm a bit concerned about the number of walkers in the mech lineup. It's nothing big, since it doesn't affect gameplay or anything. But still. There are now a whole 4 walking robots (Thor, Viking, Battle Hellion, Warhound), but only one unit on wheels and one unit on tracks. Not even mentioning that the terrans aren't supposed to be that technologically advanced (it's not warhammer 40k), but from an engineering POV I know that legs are far inferior to wheels or tracks. It just doesn't make sense to me that almost every non-flying war machine they build would have legs.
On September 05 2012 03:19 SarcasmMonster wrote: Instead of complaining about everything, I think we should ALL focus our complaining energies towards the Warhound instead of diluting our complaining efforts.
i can live with the warhound if tempest is removed ;d
I don't get the tempest hate at all. Archon toilet will no longer be a thing, so something else has to take care of BLs and that thing is the Tempest. Mech in TvP is going to be strong (battle hellions against chargelots) which means you'll see a lot of siege lines, and the Tempest is the thing that can break those too. Tempest will be a great toss unit. With its low single-target dps it is thematically different from both tanks (high dps and splash) and BLs (high dps, disruption).
It replaces a better unit which just needed some improving upon to make it more viable. Thats the reason for the hate. Also from the videos released so far there is nothing exciting about it from both a player and spectator stand point. On the other hand I'm looking forward to using widow mines which are extremely cool.
Due to the smarter AI, Carriers have become much more vulnerable to marines and hydras than they used to be in BW. That's the reason it's getting removed. It's possible you could have fixed it by giving the interceptors longer shooting range, but I'm sure it would have looked quite silly to make those tiny ships shoot farther than the phoenix. I'm as bummed as you are about losing the carrier, especially since from our perspective it looks like Blizzard hasn't even tried to change it (but I'm sure they have done so internally), but take the Tempest for what it is. Stop looking at it as just the evil thing that killed your favorite unit. Start looking at it as a new unit.
Carriers have also become dumber than in BW. Interceptors don't heal and you can't micro the carriers. The tempest is a unit which shoots big balls that do little damage at a slow rate. It will be effective against siege lines but seige tanks are not even used in PvT. In fact seige lines are not even a problem in any terran matchup. This means that the tempest is a purely vs zerg unit meant to pretty much combat broodlord/infestor. The tool it uses is its range but apart from that there is nothing exciting about it. I have a feeling zergs will just use a queen to transfuse and ignore the tempest completely. If blizzard buffs the tempest for better dps it will become overpowered due to its range. So its just a poorly thought off unit. Also from a spectator point of view a unit which releases a swarm of interceptors is a lot more exciting to see than this.
It may be true what you say about the carrier. But I still think the interceptors are just too weak against marines and hydras to be viable without any serious changes.
But it was my point that sige tanks will be used in TvP. Until now it has been a poor investment to whoop out factories and siege tech because tanks are so vulnerable against zealots (and immortals, should they get close enough). But with battle hellions, you can take out those zealots (and warhounds can deal with immortals), making tanks a pretty strong unit again.
Like I've said earlier in this thread, it takes 8 tempest shots to kill a BL. If the zerg has a sizable BL force, you can definitely expect to have 4 tempests, making you two-shot the BLs. If nothing else, it's going to drain the queens dry of energy pretty fast. Probably faster than you can go in and take care of those tempests.
Search on youtube for "BigDog" Boston Dynamics. Mechanical legs are definitely not inferior to wheels or tracks. Quite the opposite.
On September 05 2012 00:37 ETisME wrote: swarm hosts take up so much supply, kinda depressing to see, but coupled with the new nydus, zerg gameplay seems a lot more interesting. hopefully the new nydus will actually be useful
Please tell me this costs supply. Making Spine walls even better seems absolutely crazy to me.
They can only attack buildings.
Ugh, as far as I know, its the first time in Blizz history of rts design they've introduced such a restriction on any unit to make it balanced. Seriously, a huge corrosive worm that's part the swarm that suddenly chokes when a marine walks up to it?
Reaper has had a building-only attack for all of WoL. Ultras used to have one.
On September 05 2012 04:31 aTak wrote: This thread is just sad. Sitting and looking forward for release, hoping to get beta, and all I see is whine and whine..
Don't see anything wrong with most of the changes, atleast when it comes to making it more automatic for the regular stuff. I would prefer a game where smart strategic thinking and intelligence won over apm anyday. I get sad just thinking about that there wasn't a worker rally in bw. Sure it made the game harder, but it definetely didn't make it better/more fun. Isn't as fun winning if you do it because you are faster on the keyboard than your opponent. Doesn't give the same pleasure as being a greater military tactician :D
Besides, as said, why even bother crying about it, it's not like it's gonna change much for creme de la creme of players (atleast that's what I think as a top diamond random player).
I hope those changes get my friends who are pretty bad at the game a easier time and make them want to play more often than when I force them to hehe..
If it displays the build order in the corner of the screen, I think people would have a case that they were making the game to easy. Right now, knowing the number of workers on a base helps so little it cannot be measured. The select all button will likely lead to some really funny moments or people doing the exact wrong thing with their entire army.
As for the auto mining thing, I wonder if that has to do with syncing/performance issues, rather than making the game easier. I could see a case being made if they found that the game did not start exactly as at the same time for both players, but synced up after a moment or two. That is such a hard issue to address on the network side and it might have just been easier for them to make the workers start out with a mining command.
On September 05 2012 04:30 gedatsu wrote: I'm a bit concerned about the number of walkers in the mech lineup. It's nothing big, since it doesn't affect gameplay or anything. But still. There are now a whole 4 walking robots (Thor, Viking, Battle Hellion, Warhound), but only one unit on wheels and one unit on tracks. Not even mentioning that the terrans aren't supposed to be that technologically advanced (it's not warhammer 40k), but from an engineering POV I know that legs are far inferior to wheels or tracks. It just doesn't make sense to me that almost every non-flying war machine they build would have legs.
On September 05 2012 04:26 WickedBit wrote:
On September 05 2012 04:14 gedatsu wrote:
On September 05 2012 04:01 WickedBit wrote:
On September 05 2012 03:59 gedatsu wrote:
On September 05 2012 03:20 a176 wrote:
On September 05 2012 03:19 SarcasmMonster wrote: Instead of complaining about everything, I think we should ALL focus our complaining energies towards the Warhound instead of diluting our complaining efforts.
i can live with the warhound if tempest is removed ;d
I don't get the tempest hate at all. Archon toilet will no longer be a thing, so something else has to take care of BLs and that thing is the Tempest. Mech in TvP is going to be strong (battle hellions against chargelots) which means you'll see a lot of siege lines, and the Tempest is the thing that can break those too. Tempest will be a great toss unit. With its low single-target dps it is thematically different from both tanks (high dps and splash) and BLs (high dps, disruption).
It replaces a better unit which just needed some improving upon to make it more viable. Thats the reason for the hate. Also from the videos released so far there is nothing exciting about it from both a player and spectator stand point. On the other hand I'm looking forward to using widow mines which are extremely cool.
Due to the smarter AI, Carriers have become much more vulnerable to marines and hydras than they used to be in BW. That's the reason it's getting removed. It's possible you could have fixed it by giving the interceptors longer shooting range, but I'm sure it would have looked quite silly to make those tiny ships shoot farther than the phoenix. I'm as bummed as you are about losing the carrier, especially since from our perspective it looks like Blizzard hasn't even tried to change it (but I'm sure they have done so internally), but take the Tempest for what it is. Stop looking at it as just the evil thing that killed your favorite unit. Start looking at it as a new unit.
Carriers have also become dumber than in BW. Interceptors don't heal and you can't micro the carriers. The tempest is a unit which shoots big balls that do little damage at a slow rate. It will be effective against siege lines but seige tanks are not even used in PvT. In fact seige lines are not even a problem in any terran matchup. This means that the tempest is a purely vs zerg unit meant to pretty much combat broodlord/infestor. The tool it uses is its range but apart from that there is nothing exciting about it. I have a feeling zergs will just use a queen to transfuse and ignore the tempest completely. If blizzard buffs the tempest for better dps it will become overpowered due to its range. So its just a poorly thought off unit. Also from a spectator point of view a unit which releases a swarm of interceptors is a lot more exciting to see than this.
It may be true what you say about the carrier. But I still think the interceptors are just too weak against marines and hydras to be viable without any serious changes.
But it was my point that sige tanks will be used in TvP. Until now it has been a poor investment to whoop out factories and siege tech because tanks are so vulnerable against zealots (and immortals, should they get close enough). But with battle hellions, you can take out those zealots (and warhounds can deal with immortals), making tanks a pretty strong unit again.
Like I've said earlier in this thread, it takes 8 tempest shots to kill a BL. If the zerg has a sizable BL force, you can definitely expect to have 4 tempests, making you two-shot the BLs. If nothing else, it's going to drain the queens dry of energy pretty fast. Probably faster than you can go in and take care of those tempests.
Search on youtube for "BigDog" Boston Dynamics. Mechanical legs are definitely not inferior to wheels or tracks. Quite the opposite.
No, not quite the opposite. It only takes a bent leg to mess up that robot. Not to mention that that thing weighs, what, 50 kgs? Try making a walking robot three times as tall as a man and you'll see it ain't so easy. And try making it go faster than I can jog.
On September 05 2012 00:37 ETisME wrote: swarm hosts take up so much supply, kinda depressing to see, but coupled with the new nydus, zerg gameplay seems a lot more interesting. hopefully the new nydus will actually be useful
Please tell me this costs supply. Making Spine walls even better seems absolutely crazy to me.
They can only attack buildings.
Ugh, as far as I know, its the first time in Blizz history of rts design they've introduced such a restriction on any unit to make it balanced. Seriously, a huge corrosive worm that's part the swarm that suddenly chokes when a marine walks up to it?
Reaper has had a building-only attack for all of WoL. Ultras used to have one.
I think they mean it can only attack buildings, as in it has no secondary attack that can hit normal units like the reaper has. And there is a precedent in the Siege Engine from Warcraft 3 (and even it could be upgraded to attack air units).
On September 05 2012 04:42 Alexj wrote: If only it was possible to get new info HotS beta quickly from this thread without digging through countless QQ posts
This is TL, you work for what you want! Micro those thread pages and make your way through the garbage.
On September 05 2012 00:37 ETisME wrote: swarm hosts take up so much supply, kinda depressing to see, but coupled with the new nydus, zerg gameplay seems a lot more interesting. hopefully the new nydus will actually be useful
Please tell me this costs supply. Making Spine walls even better seems absolutely crazy to me.
They can only attack buildings.
Ugh, as far as I know, its the first time in Blizz history of rts design they've introduced such a restriction on any unit to make it balanced. Seriously, a huge corrosive worm that's part the swarm that suddenly chokes when a marine walks up to it?
Reaper has had a building-only attack for all of WoL. Ultras used to have one.
I think he means that Nyduses can't attack any units -at all-. No unit/building has that restriction currently.
On September 05 2012 04:37 stichtom wrote: From Blizzard:
Just as a note - none of these changes are confirmed for release, and a couple, such as the 'simple command card' and 'can't control unit' warning probably won't go live - at least, not for multiplayer. Some of the UI options we're looking at could be used to help simplify gameplay for Arcade games, for example. It is a beta, after all, and we're taking the opportunity to experiment a bit. None of the stuff you'll see filtering out of it is a sure thing. Just wanted to throw that out there. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/zbirc/new_button_in_hots_interface_select_army_units/c63dt73
On September 05 2012 00:37 ETisME wrote: swarm hosts take up so much supply, kinda depressing to see, but coupled with the new nydus, zerg gameplay seems a lot more interesting. hopefully the new nydus will actually be useful
Please tell me this costs supply. Making Spine walls even better seems absolutely crazy to me.
They can only attack buildings.
Ugh, as far as I know, its the first time in Blizz history of rts design they've introduced such a restriction on any unit to make it balanced. Seriously, a huge corrosive worm that's part the swarm that suddenly chokes when a marine walks up to it?
Reaper has had a building-only attack for all of WoL. Ultras used to have one.
I think they mean it can only attack buildings, as in it has no secondary attack that can hit normal units like the reaper has. And there is a precedent in the Siege Engine from Warcraft 3 (and even it could be upgraded to attack air units).
Well my point is, why wouldn't the Reaper be able to throw grenades at people? Why does he have to use some silly pistols then? And why wasn't an Ultralisk able to headbutt a Thor when it could headbutt a depot?
On September 05 2012 00:37 ETisME wrote: swarm hosts take up so much supply, kinda depressing to see, but coupled with the new nydus, zerg gameplay seems a lot more interesting. hopefully the new nydus will actually be useful
Please tell me this costs supply. Making Spine walls even better seems absolutely crazy to me.
They can only attack buildings.
Ugh, as far as I know, its the first time in Blizz history of rts design they've introduced such a restriction on any unit to make it balanced. Seriously, a huge corrosive worm that's part the swarm that suddenly chokes when a marine walks up to it?
Reaper has had a building-only attack for all of WoL. Ultras used to have one.
What are you talking about? Reapers can attack units and ultras always have. It's an arbitrary restriction to kludge in a semblance of balance, that doesn't take into account good design and lore tie in. For those who played BW Battle Chest, they'll remember the book that described each and every unit in the game.
Every unit was thoughtfully thought out with a design in mind that also fit in the StarCraft universe. But now this huge monstrosity that spit balls what some could argue looks like the stuff inside a baneling can't touch a marine?
On September 05 2012 04:37 stichtom wrote: From Blizzard:
Just as a note - none of these changes are confirmed for release, and a couple, such as the 'simple command card' and 'can't control unit' warning probably won't go live - at least, not for multiplayer. Some of the UI options we're looking at could be used to help simplify gameplay for Arcade games, for example. It is a beta, after all, and we're taking the opportunity to experiment a bit. None of the stuff you'll see filtering out of it is a sure thing. Just wanted to throw that out there. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/zbirc/new_button_in_hots_interface_select_army_units/c63dt73
EPT
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